Irish National War Memorial vandalised.

PH01

Saw this on the news yesterday.
On Wednesday night, vandals broke into the Irish National War Memorial gardens there at Islandbridge and painted slogans on many of the monuments. These were in the main anti-British slogans and some simply said "Traitors".
It was no coincidence in the day that these scumbags chose to deface the memorial. Yesterday was Armistice Day. A day when we should remember the estimated 49,000 Irishmen, all volunteers, who were killed during the First World War.
It saddens and angers me to see what was done there. What normail homan being could do such a thing?
And how does the commemoration of all those irish men and women who served with the British Army equates with being anti-Irish?

bonkey

All I can say is that to some, not siding with "the Brits" is the prime requisite for Irishness. Anyone who doesn't actively oppose them......

Its sad really. Then again, I think the desecration of any memorials is saddening.

jc

mycroft

PH01 wrote:

Saw this on the news yesterday.
On Wednesday night, vandals broke into the Irish National War Memorial gardens there at Islandbridge and painted slogans on many of the monuments. These were in the main anti-British slogans and some simply said "Traitors".

Esp since anyone who did leaving cert history can tell you that the Irish Home rule movement actively encouraged volunteers to enlist to counteract the Ulster Volunteer movement enlisted en masse on Carson's orders, in the hope that their volunteering would shame the british govt into halting inacting devolution legislation that was in motion.

The vandalism is shameful and ignorant.

BTW anyone seen the really beautiful monument to Austrialian dead in both wars by Hyde park? Really work checking out if you're in the area

Nuttzz

The irish volunteers were urged by redmond to join up to fight for the british in WWI and that their service would aid Irish freedom.They died thinking that they could free Ireland through their service, however these vandals have not idea of history.

Hagar

mycroft wrote:

The vandalism is shameful and ignorant.

I would not be a great supporter of the British Army but I respect the sacrifice those men made. It was a disgraceful, senseless act.

ionapaul

80 years of the teaching of nationalistic history in our primary schools can lead to this sort disgraceful behaviour. Even the suggestion that the Irish WWI soldiers were as brave as the 1916 rebels would get you a kicking in certain Dublin pubs today. That said, no doubt the culprits were teenage idiots off their heads on Buckfast and Bulmers...

Chaos-Engine

Racism being spray painted on memorials of any sor tis terrible...

However I do not agree with honouring soldiers who, ever they are. War is an evil we do not need to honour. Fighting for your country is in no way honourible.

Hairy Homer

ionapaul wrote:

80 years of the teaching of nationalistic history in our primary schools can lead to this sort disgraceful behaviour.

I don't agree with defacing the memorial, but let's not go down the route of sanctimonious twaddle.

Have a look at FAllujah today and ask yourself, does the teaching of a biased, selective version of history in schools in Britain and America lead to mass destruction of this sort?

Speaking of saying dangerous things in pubs, I dare you to go to a pub full of Chelsea supporters in London on a weekend night and say out loud: 'I hope the Saville enquiry leads to a number of former soldiers being brought to justice for the heinous crimes committed on Bloody Sunday.'

Mind you, I suggest you write a will first.

PH01

Hairy Homer wrote:

I don't agree with defacing the memorial, but let's not go down the route of sanctimonious twaddle.

Have a look at FAllujah today and ask yourself, does the teaching of a biased, selective version of history in schools in Britain and America lead to mass destruction of this sort?

Speaking of saying dangerous things in pubs, I dare you to go to a pub full of Chelsea supporters in London on a weekend night and say out loud: 'I hope the Saville enquiry leads to a number of former soldiers being brought to justice for the heinous crimes committed on Bloody Sunday.'

Mind you, I suggest you write a will first.

And what has all this got to do with the Irish war dead of 1914 -1918?

A Dub in Glasgo

Probably nothing but I would imagine it was a post to try and counter the bull from ionapaul that this disgraceful act is a result of our education in Irish history. It is as if he is trying to airbrush out of history the fact that we were once occupied by a foreign power and we fought against this foreign power. There are some people who see this fight as a more worthwhile and honourable fight than the fact that Irishman were used as cannon fodder in WW1.

Where the WW1 soldiers brave: IMO Yes
Was WW1 an honourable fight: IMO No
Does the above justify vandalising the memorial: IMO No

PH01

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Probably nothing but I would imagine it was a post to try and counter the bull from ionapaul that this disgraceful act is a result of our education in Irish history. It is as if he is trying to airbrush out of history the fact that we were once occupied by a foreign power and we fought against this foreign power. There are some people who see this fight as a more worthwhile and honourable fight than the fact that Irishman were used as cannon fodder in WW1.

Where the WW1 soldiers brave: IMO Yes
Was WW1 an honourable fight: IMO No
Does the above justify vandalising the memorial: IMO No

You make a good point on airbrushing there. In many ways the Irish dead of WWI have been airbrushed out of our history.

ionapaul

Hairy Homer wrote:

I don't agree with defacing the memorial, but let's not go down the route of sanctimonious twaddle.

Have a look at FAllujah today and ask yourself, does the teaching of a biased, selective version of history in schools in Britain and America lead to mass destruction of this sort?

I don't think we are disagreeing here at all! Nationalist rubbish / indoctrination leads to problems in all countries, right? The primary and secondary level history taught in each nation state is government influenced and obviously extremely subjective. It is extremely hard to reject or accept views differing with this teaching - witness the trouble any revisionist historians have had in Ireland since the '60s!

Meh

ionapaul wrote:

I don't think we are disagreeing here at all! Nationalist rubbish / indoctrination leads to problems in all countries, right? The primary and secondary level history taught in each nation state is government influenced and obviously extremely subjective.

I think the problem is too little education rather than too much education. I'd be surprised if the scumbags who did this can even read, never mind passing their Junior Cert history.

fiacha

Chaos-Engine wrote:

Racism being spray painted on memorials of any sor tis terrible...

However I do not agree with honouring soldiers who, ever they are. War is an evil we do not need to honour. Fighting for your country is in no way honourible.

ridiculous. irish men and women who volunteered for service during both world wars deserve to be honoured and remembered.

they sacrificed their lives to protect Ireland from a very real threat.

LegacyUser

fiacha wrote:

ridiculous. irish men and women who volunteered for service during both world wars deserve to be honoured and remembered.

they sacrificed their lives to protect Ireland from a very real threat.

ww2 yes, ww1 was just daft and there was certainly no threat to us

fiacha

bananayoghurt wrote:

ww2 yes, ww1 was just daft and there was certainly no threat to us

germany was empire building when it escalated the dispute between Austro-Hungary and Russia. It was the oppertunity to take western europe and russia, and they went for it. If they had not been defeated by the Western Allies, ireland would have suffered along with the rest of the world.

bonkey

fiacha wrote:

they sacrificed their lives to protect Ireland from a very real threat.

What very real threat?

jc

<edit - nevermind...I see you've just answered that, although I don't think most historians would agree with the "threat" that you name>

therecklessone

Nuttzz wrote:

They died thinking that they could free Ireland through their service, however these vandals have not idea of history.

My guess is that these vandals have no idea full stop.

I can't work out whether I'm angry or just incredibly saddened by this.

The Corinthian

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is as if he is trying to airbrush out of history the fact that we were once occupied by a foreign power and we fought against this foreign power.

We kind of fought against that foreign power - after all didn’t all the risings and rebellions largely fail because they never really got popular support?

LegacyUser

The Corinthian wrote:

We kind of fought against that foreign power - after all didn’t all the risings and rebellions largely fail because they never really got popular support?

there's more ways to fight than with guns, pen is mightier than the sword etc etc

DeVore

Chaos-Engine wrote:

Racism being spray painted on memorials of any sor tis terrible...

However I do not agree with honouring soldiers who, ever they are. War is an evil we do not need to honour. Fighting for your country is in no way honourible.

How do you say that in German?

DeV.

mycroft

The Corinthian wrote:

We kind of fought against that foreign power - after all didn’t all the risings and rebellions largely fail because they never really got popular support?

Nope several rebellions had popular support, but lacked resources ie guns and were ruthlessly butchered by the English, if an american ever starts whinging about how they kicked englands ass way before us, point out that they the minor tactical advantage commonly known as "The Atlantic Ocean".

there's more ways to fight than with guns, pen is mightier than the sword etc etc

what on earth is your point?

The Corinthian

bananayoghurt wrote:

there's more ways to fight than with guns, pen is mightier than the sword etc etc

From an armchair no doubt - I've observed that's how patriotism is largely practiced in Ireland.

Elmo

We have a war memorial for a war that we were nutral in? Do all the other "nutral" countries comorate other armies?

LegacyUser

The Corinthian wrote:

From an armchair no doubt - I've observed that's how patriotism is largely practiced in Ireland.

not from the armchair, in the polling booth !

Elmo

From an armchair no doubt - I've observed that's how patriotism is largely practiced in Ireland.

Did you have a pen and some paper at the time?

mycroft

Elmo wrote:

We have a war memorial for a war that we were nutral in? Do all the other "nutral" countries comorate other armies?

Er. We were part of the british empire and did not have direct control over own government at the time, so when the British declared war, we didn't really have a choice. Conscription for Ireland was debated but rejected as they felt it would play into republican hands.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Corinthian wrote:

We kind of fought against that foreign power - after all didn’t all the risings and rebellions largely fail because they never really got popular support?

It was very successful for the people in what later became the Republic of Ireland

fiacha

DeVore wrote:

How do you say that in German?

DeV.

Feigling ??

The Corinthian

mycroft wrote:

Nope several rebellions had popular support

That’s actually rather arguable, TBH. Those that did command popular support across Ireland were more about who was king of England (a Scotsman or Dutchman ) than Irish independence. Those that were about Irish independence; most notably in 1798, 1803 and 1916 were local affairs with little popular support.

bananayoghurt wrote:

not from the armchair, in the polling booth !

Whoosh! Point well missed.

Elmo wrote:

Did you have a pen and some paper at the time?

"You can get more done with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It was very successful for the people in what later became the Republic of Ireland

The ones in those comfy armchairs.

How is that working out for you?

ionapaul

None of the unsuccessful risings following Robert Emmet's (and including his) enjoyed substantial popular support in Ireland. The Easter Rising least of all. The War of Independence had the support of a majority of those on the Ireland of Ireland, but not overwhelming support in its initial stages.
Most armchair Irish patriotism doesn't even take place in Ireland! Talk to our diaspora for *real* patriotism - foreign soil makes 'em love Ireland all the more!