Irish National War Memorial vandalised.

mike65

ionapaul wrote:

Most armchair Irish patriotism doesn't even take place in Ireland! Talk to our diaspora for *real* patriotism - foreign soil makes 'em love Ireland all the more!

Tis what served the Provos well enough...that and robbing/kidnapping/extorting etc.

Mike.

bonkey

No chance of discussing the actual topic?

jc

ionapaul

bonkey wrote:

No chance of discussing the actual topic?

jc

Well, a moderator can always live in hope...

mike65

What? On the politics forum? When I can have a valid shot at the IRA?

Okay then....bloody outragreous behaviour which merely underlines the prevalence of boorish violent skangers out there. Just think the fun these pieces of sh1te could have in northern France and Belgium.

Mike.

A Dub in Glasgo

mike65 wrote:

What? On the politics forum? When I can have a valid shot at the IRA?

.

Politics Forum - not the rant 'n' rave forum

Redleslie2

I know there's memorials at liberty hall and in waterford to the (200-300) Irish who fought for the government side in the spanish civil war, but is there any for those (750) who fought for the fascists? Should there be?

Dar

Redleslie2 wrote:

I know there's memorials at liberty hall and in waterford to the (200-300) Irish who fought for the government side in the spanish civil war, but is there any for those (750) who fought for the fascists? Should there be?

There would be if they had won. Only the victors build monuments.

Redleslie2

Dar wrote:

There would be if they had won. Only the victors build monuments.

Their side did win.

thejollyrodger

all I can say is that its a disgrace. People who died for freedom being called traitors.

bizmark

Chaos-Engine wrote:

However I do not agree with honouring soldiers who, ever they are. War is an evil we do not need to honour. Fighting for your country is in no way honourible.

:rolleyes:
Thank god most of those soilders are dead now lest the see how some people treat their memory and the memory of their fallen friends .But it must be easy for some people sitting behind their pc's liveing a relatively easy safe life to say soilders arent worth honoring.

christ what is wrong with this country

pork99

ionapaul wrote:

That said, no doubt the culprits were teenage idiots off their heads on Buckfast and Bulmers...

Sinn Fein's constituency in other words

Some little c#nt wanders around Stillorgan graffitying "CIRA" everywhere. I'd love to stamp on his boll#x

A Dub in Glasgo

pork99 wrote:

Sinn Fein's constituency in other words

Some little c#nt wanders around Stillorgan graffitying "CIRA" everywhere. I'd love to stamp on his boll#x

You do know that SF condemn the CIRA

shltter

pork99 wrote:

Sinn Fein's constituency in other words

Some little c#nt wanders around Stillorgan graffitying "CIRA" everywhere. I'd love to stamp on his boll#x

first off cira if they are linked to any political it is not sinn fein

secondly as a republican i dont agree with defacing and vandalising any headstones or memorials

IMO Irish people who fought for the british in world war 1 did so for many reasons i think that unfortunately an awful lot of Irish people died in a war that should never have happened and an awful lot of them were misled into thinking they were fighting for the freedom of small nations and that this would include ireland
So in a respect a lot of them died for Irish freedom as it turns out mistakenly but they were not to know that at the time
also many irish republicans were in the british army at some stage in their lives james connolly afaik
the second world war is completely different it was a fight against fascism/nazism and you have to respect any one who fought against fascism/nazism we owe them a huge debt wether it was in the british army or any of the allied armies
the same as i respect people who fought in the international brigades in spain

i think it is important to remember the people who died in both world wars
that does not mean that you have to think the first world war was a good thing
i think the people who vandalised this memorial should grow up the soldiers who are remembered their were not british they were Irish soldiers serving in the british army for many different reasons.

as i said already i'am a republican and the people who did this are not in my opinion
they may have some narrow minded nationalist thinking but they are not republicans

pork99

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You do know that SF condemn the CIRA

well ok I agree with them on some things

gandalf

Its digusting that these so called republicans did this, I would bet hard cash they don't even know the history behind why so many of these men of Ireland were going to fight in the first world war. They went to fight because they were led to believe it would guarantee Home Rule. Also trying to equate todays values to a war 90 years ago really isn't on.

As regard the 2nd World War offically we were neutral but in practice we were edging towards the allies. Over 70,000 Irish citizens from South of the border fought in that war with honour.

Its time some people around here grew up and realised that there is so more to Ireland than their narrow green tinted glasses allow them to see. Corinthian is partly right btw 1916 did not have popular support at all as was the case with many of the earlier risings. The British however made a serious miscalculation and executed the ringleaders of 1916 (men who are real heroes not like the so called "freedom fighters" of today!) and they lost the support of the people so by the time of the War of Independence 1919 the whole country (well apart from the part with Carson and his boys) was behind the IRA.

gandalf

Btw just wondering were the same morons responsible for this as well

Gardai probe painted hate slogans on Jewish centre and war memorial

THERE was outrage last night at the daubing of a Swastika on a Jewish centre and the throwing of paint and hate slogans written on a cross and altar at the National War Memorial gardens in Dublin.

As President McAleese spoke of bringing communities closer together during her inauguration address, and Remembrance Day ceremonies were held to commemorate the dead of two world wars, gardai were investigating the racist attacks which provoked angry reaction from political and church leaders.

Justice Minister Michael McDowell said he "utterly condemned" what had happened. There was, he said, no place in Irish society for people with such views.

And Labour'sjustice spokesman Deputy Joe Costelloe described them as "unacceptable and shameful".

In the anti-Semitic attack, a black Swastika was painted on the front wall of the Irish Jewish Museum off South Circular Road, the first incident of its kind in the centre's 20-year history.

At the National War Memorial in Islandbridge the vandals sprayed yellow paint on the cross, altar, and memorials and wrote slogans including "Traitors", "Burn in Hell", and "Free Iraq".

Last night the Royal British Legion said that despite the damage it was going ahead with its Remembrance wreath-laying ceremony in the gardens tomorrow.

Reacting to the Nazi symbol on the museum, Chief Rabbi Dr Yaakov Pearlman said he was "shocked beyond words that a deplorable racist act like this" could take place here.

Source here - needs registration but free

LegacyUser

to go slightly against the grain,

there was outrage in communities across the country today that general day to day vandalism is taken for granted, bus shelters and windows everywhere and anywhere smashed, phone boxes, unoccupied buildings and houses damaged and no one cares, but spray some paint on a memorial and every tom dick and harry politician is screaming outrage /searches for a 'they make me sick' pukey but can't find one :mad:

pork99

shltter wrote:

first off cira if they are linked to any political it is not sinn fein

secondly as a republican i dont agree with defacing and vandalising any headstones or memorials...

...as i said already i'am a republican and the people who did this are not in my opinion
they may have some narrow minded nationalist thinking but they are not republicans

Ok my Sinn Fein remark was a bit snide. I've always thought there were very broadly 2 types of Sinn Fein supporters - the ones with a considered political point of view, which mostly I don't agree with but I can respect, and the ignorant scum "kick the brits" element. I think the peace process over the last has acted like a centrifugal force on Republicanism, anyone with genuine political interests going with the current Sinn Fein leadership and the latter yobbo element more at home supporting CIRA/RIRA.

Getting back to the topic I have to admit that some Sinn Fein politicians have recently shown a more positive constructive attitude. I'm thinking in particular of Alex Maskey while Lord Mayor of Belfast laying a wreath at the cenotaph in Belfast and going to commemorative services in war cemetaries in Flanders. But that shows a level of political maturity and sensitivity that you cannot expect from the average skanger with spray-paint.

Victor

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is as if he is trying to airbrush out of history the fact that we were once occupied by a foreign power and we fought against this foreign power.

"We"? "We" didn't.

CathyMoran

My greatgrandfather fought in the war - is disgusting that people could do such a thing.

Victor

bananayoghurt wrote:

to go slightly against the grain,

Understandable, but bear with me.

there was outrage in communities across the country today that general day to day vandalism is taken for granted, bus shelters and windows everywhere and anywhere smashed, phone boxes, unoccupied buildings and houses damaged and no one cares, but spray some paint on a memorial and every tom dick and harry politician is screaming outrage /searches for a 'they make me sick' pukey but can't find one :mad:

It's not vandalism, it's desecration. Desecration is about the worst thing you can do to someone when they are dead. They're dead, leave them alone, let their family mourn them. By desecrating their memorial you aren't hurting the dead, you are merely twisting the knife for the living and committing the last crime you can against the dead. If that makes sense.

A Dub in Glasgo

Victor wrote:

"We"? "We" didn't.

Don't be such a pedant.... We = Ireland/The Irish people.

My great grandfather fought against the British in the War of Indepedence and on the Republican side in the Civil War. His son (my Grandfather) joined the British Army to fight against the Nazis. I am proud of both of them.

LegacyUser

Victor wrote:

Understandable, but bear with me.It's not vandalism, it's desecration. Desecration is about the worst thing you can do to someone when they are dead. They're dead, leave them alone, let their family mourn them. By desecrating their memorial you aren't hurting the dead, you are merely twisting the kife for the living and committing the last crime you can against the dead. If that makes sense.

that makes sense

Hairy Homer

gandalf wrote:

As regard the 2nd World War offically we were neutral but in practice we were edging towards the allies. Over 70,000 Irish citizens from South of the border fought in that war with honour.

Its time some people around here grew up and realised that there is so more to Ireland than their narrow green tinted glasses allow them to see.

I would totally agree with that sentiment. But swopping a pair of green tinted glasses for a set of red-white-and-blue tinted ones, and replacing one accepted wisdom for another is a bit pointless, wouldn't you say?

Here's an idea. To really show gratitude to the people who did most to defeat Nazism I reckon we should all, for the month of November, walk around wearing a hammer and sickle badge in honour of the Soviet Union, whose people suffered more than anybody else, endured the heaviest casualties, inflicted the heaviest defeats on the Germans, engaged far more German soldiers than any other theatre of war at any time, fought the full might of the German army alone for two years until the Allies invaded Italy, and eventually captured Berlin forcing the surrender.

Of course they were a right bunch of bastards, invading Finland for no other reason than to make Leningrad a bit safer (for all the good that did it) and raping every German woman they came across, not to mention really taking it out on their own subject peoples who were enticed to join in the German assault on their long-time opressors. But, hey. War's a dirty business.

SkepticOne

Hairy Homer wrote:

Of course they were a right bunch of bastards, invading Finland for no other reason than to make Leningrad a bit safer (for all the good that did it) and raping every German woman they came across, not to mention really taking it out on their own subject peoples who were enticed to join in the German assault on their long-time opressors. But, hey. War's a dirty business.

Indeed, and lets not forget that they only invaded Germany after they themselves had been invaded. Up to that point they were allies of the Nazis. But credit where credit is due.

Stabshauptmann

The way I see our involvement in WW1:
The home rule bill was passed, unionists hoped that their support in the war effort would gain them political sway and that the bill would somehow be scrapped, to counter act this Redmond said the Irish Volunteers would also fight.
But the Irish contribution went largely unnoticed. Unionist regiments got special treatment, there own emblems and stayed mostly intact, the same wasn’t done for the nationalist ones.
It could be easily argued that Redmond was wrong to commit Irish lives to an English fight. We were in no danger from Germany and we might have had better success in 1916 had we had the entire body of the volunteers at our disposal. But that’s with hindsight, and its still only opinion.
The facts are as they stand anyway, that we didn’t get the expected rewards for our efforts. Home rule was never enacted and Unionists to this day don’t acknowledge our contribution - bridge building was one of the aims of Redmond’s decision.

Why I believe these men should be honored is because
1) They suffered more than any soldiers that came since - they went through hell and back. The conditions of WW1 were unprecedented in their harshness.
2) They were volunteers, they had the courage of their convictions-nobody forced them to fight
3) It was (as far as they knew or could know) a noble cause, for the cause of Irish sovereignty, Irish Unity, and the freedom of small countries everywhere.

But I hold it against Redmond that he failed as a political leader to get the rewards of their labour or even acknowledgement of their efforts.

The Corinthian wrote:

That’s actually rather arguable, TBH. Those that did command popular support across Ireland were more about who was king of England (a Scotsman or Dutchman ) than Irish independence. Those that were about Irish independence; most notably in 1798, 1803 and 1916 were local affairs with little popular support.

That’s a subjective interpretation you have there. In 1798 there was wide support and planning in nearly every community nation wide throughout all religious communities.
The poor turn outs were because of the arrest of most key members at senior levels and the brutal pre-emptive attacks by crown forces.

Yes 1803 was nothing more than a local affair doomed to failure, but that was the point.

Then for some reason you leave out the Young Irelanders, The Fenians and the land war
Admittedly the scale of the activities were small but they did show remarkable popular support, the latter two forming the basis of political movements that would culminate in the home rule movement.

If Redmond had sided with 1916 its level of popular support would have been dramatically altered, but if 1916 does show anything its that public opinion is fickle.

Your argument that Irish ppl are as a whole patriotic in word but not in deed is absurd when one considers that for the past 250 years every generation has seen both massive political movements closely followed by violent struggle.

I understand your stance that most of these were of miniscule proportions but that is because you are applying today’s standards. In a world of limited communications, resources and technology the standards change dramatically.

Case in point, the death toll for the entire boarder campaign was probably eclipsed in a couple of months during the height of the troubles but it was considered a major upheaval at the time and sent waves of panic and fear through many communities.

If we were to measure the troubles to international standards, nearly as many ppl died in the 9/11 attacks as did during the 30 yrs or so of the troubles but I certainly wouldnt agree that that makes the troubles an unimportant or trivial affair- would you?

The Corinthian

Necromancer wrote:

That’s a subjective interpretation you have there. In 1798 there was wide support and planning in nearly every community nation wide throughout all religious communities.

Support which was, of course, reflected in the rebellions themselves - except it wasn’t. Sounds like the type of support that the SWP frequently claims to enjoy on a grassroots level.

The poor turn outs were because of the arrest of most key members at senior levels and the brutal pre-emptive attacks by crown forces.

And due to a mix-up with the invites too, I wager.

Yes 1803 was nothing more than a local affair doomed to failure, but that was the point.

A mass suicide pact was the point?

Then for some reason you leave out the Young Irelanders, The Fenians and the land war

I discussed the rebellions, not the various political movements and campaigns.

If Redmond had sided with 1916 its level of popular support would have been dramatically altered, but if 1916 does show anything its that public opinion is fickle.

Or that public opinion did not support it.

I understand your stance that most of these were of miniscule proportions but that is because you are applying today’s standards. In a world of limited communications, resources and technology the standards change dramatically.

French and American revolutions; they both got their act together without the Internet.

If we were to measure the troubles to international standards, nearly as many ppl died in the 9/11 attacks as did during the 30 yrs or so of the troubles but I certainly wouldnt agree that that makes the troubles an unimportant or trivial affair- would you?

Who’s discussing death tolls as a meter of political gravity? I thought we were discussing popular support?

magpie

HairyHomer, where were you on the night of the 11 November?

I think this incident is unfortunately symptomatic of the level of ignorance, boorishness, thuggery and vindictiveness we have come to expect of 'The Republican Movement'.

Thankfully it will remind people in the Republic what it is we are actually dealing with; and no amount of dressing in Armani and trimming of beards can change the fact.

A Dub in Glasgo

magpie wrote:

Thankfully it will remind people in the Republic what it is we are actually dealing with; and no amount of dressing in Armani and trimming of beards can change the fact.

Come right out and blame Sinn Fein members or supporters for the desecration because that is what you are alluding to! Do you reckon that SF members in Ballyfermot or Inchicore should be questioned about this?

The people who did this are misguided but you seem to what to brush all SF members/supporters with that huge brush of yours.

magpie

Do you reckon that SF members in Ballyfermot or Inchicore should be questioned about this?

Yes

EDIT/

Mycroft, thanks for the negative rep. In answer to your question "based on?" who else do you think would daub "traitors" on a WW1 memorial? The Women's Institute?