Bush expresses full support for Palestinian State

bonkey

In a (at the moment live) press conference with Blair, Bush has just said he's putting his full weight behind attaining a Palestinian state within the next 4 years, as an answer to a question from the floor.

I'm genuinely surprised. I reckoned the Americans would hedge far more than that until the question of what the Post-Arafat power structure will be has been decided and is in place and working.

If he backs that up....it could be a very interesting (and positive) development.

jc

aidan_walsh

bonkey wrote:

I reckoned the Americans would hedge far more than that until the question of what the Post-Arafat power structure will be has been decided and is in place and working.

Unless its yet to be revealed that he has his own designs on who could be next in power. Hardly a tactic the US hasn't used before.

thejollyrodger

Great , lets hope the palestines get their own state ! they deserve it

chill

bonkey wrote:

In a (at the moment live) press conference with Blair, Bush has just said he's putting his full weight behind attaining a Palestinian state within the next 4 years, as an answer to a question from the floor.

I was listening live and he only said that it would be 'possible' in his second term, but he refused the questioner's attempt to get him to make it a target or a 'goal'.

I'm genuinely surprised. I reckoned the Americans would hedge far more than that until the question of what the Post-Arafat power structure will be has been decided and is in place and working.

I seem to recall him make almost exactly the same speech two years ago. He hasn't really said anything new, so we will just have to wait and see if the 'legacy' bug bites him. If it doesn't, I just don't see him giving a rat's ass about the Middle East. He has seen the political mileage he and the GRP can extract from the War on Terror .. as against the little or no gain to be gotten from the Middle East.

If he backs that up....it could be a very interesting (and positive) development.

You're right........... IF.

OfflerCrocGod

thejollyrodger wrote:

Great , lets hope the palestines get their own state ! they deserve it

Remember who said this.



I wouldn't hold my breath, or anything else for that matter.

billy the squid

A palestinian state, he cant be running out of arab countries to bomb already for the need to create a new one.

Seriously though, given that he doesn't have to please anyone anymore because he cannot be elected again he has the ability to do things that will not quite go down well with the israelis.

I doubt it though, I think he is just saying it to make himself look good.

magick

i think he might have a go at it , this is his second term , so hes probably considering his "legacy" aspect. Though saying that will he do a good job? Probably not considering his record for the middle east. However watching the conference did anyone notice neither Blair or Bush really replied to the question about Blair being Bush's Poodle?

the_syco

He's gotten Isreal to partially move out. You get nothing for free, so Bush tells him "you can make the other bit more secure". Sharon falls for it, and pulls out of a few places. So yeah, I think it may heppen.

Even though I'm pro-Israel, and anti-Palistein, I hope that the borders are the ones before the 1967 war. Alot to ask for, but fingers crossed.

sovtek

I wonder if this is like his "Clear Skies", "No Child Left Behind" or "Global Fund for AIDS" initiatives.
Sorry...just call me cynical.

sovtek

thejollyrodger wrote:

Great , lets hope the palestines get their own state ! they deserve it

With all the usual caveats...ie pre-1967 borders, continous borders, access to water, right of return...etc etc...you know before Oslo.

sovtek

Of course if Bush truly wanted a peace settlement he could have it in five minutes. Tell Sharon he has to pay for his own attack helicopters from now on and they'd pull out "in a jiffy".

sovtek

billy the squid wrote:

Seriously though, given that he doesn't have to please anyone anymore because he cannot be elected again he has the ability to do things that will not quite go down well with the israelis.

That's if you don't buy into the notion that AIPAC pretty much runs our government policy to the Middle East. Little bit o' tale waggin the dog.

Victor

Bush expresses full support for Palestinian State

Yes, but where?

OfflerCrocGod

Victor wrote:

Yes, but where?

Jupiter.

nutkase

sovtek wrote:

Of course if Bush truly wanted a peace settlement he could have it in five minutes. Tell Sharon he has to pay for his own attack helicopters from now on and they'd pull out "in a jiffy".

Or on the legacy note: "Mr. Sharon tear down that wall" Oh I am so sorry Mr. Bush but Ronnie used that one already on gorby lets go with "Mr. Sharon build up that wall." we will call it the no state left behind.

Of course if Bush truly wanted a peace settlement he could have it in five minutes. Tell Sharon he has to pay for his own attack helicopters from now on and they'd pull out "in a jiffy".

Not really. they'd just deploy more Israeli made Tanks which would probably cause more damage than the Helicopters.

And Sharon seems interested enough in withdrawing Israeli Presence in Palestine, since he's sacrificing his political career to do so. Quite a turn around. And I doubt whats been done so far has anything to do with US pressure. God knows, Israel has managed to ignore just about every nation including the US when it suited them.

I'm genuinely surprised. I reckoned the Americans would hedge far more than that until the question of what the Post-Arafat power structure will be has been decided and is in place and working.

Well Clinton's name is associated with the Northern-Irish peace process, so i daresay he wants hois own feather in his cap, with peace in the M.East. Nice addition to destroying Terrorism he will also bring peace and democracy to Palestine and Israel. Oh My hero!

Gurgle

Deleted User wrote:

Nice addition to destroying TerrorismTM he will also bring peaceTM and democracyTM to Palestine and Israel. Oh My hero!

Terrorism, peace and democracy are registered trademarks of GWB, leader of the freeTM worldTM

lol... but post the modifications as your own, not as a quote from me.

Hobbes

the_syco wrote:

He's gotten Isreal to partially move out.

partially is not acceptable to be honest. Israel has grabbed more land in recent time and then gives back 'some' of it back... I am sure there is an expression for this.

sovtek

Hobbes wrote:

partially is not acceptable to be honest. Israel has grabbed more land in recent time and then gives back 'some' of it back... I am sure there is an expression for this.

When I was a kid we had a term for it, although it's not PC anymore.

"Indian giver"

meditraitor

Hobbes wrote:

partially is not acceptable to be honest. Israel has grabbed more land in recent time and then gives back 'some' of it back... I am sure there is an expression for this.

The abused becoming the abuser......

sovtek

Deleted User wrote:

Not really. they'd just deploy more Israeli made Tanks which would probably cause more damage than the Helicopters.

Those tanks cost money too.

And Sharon seems interested enough in withdrawing Israeli Presence in Palestine, since he's sacrificing his political career to do so.

Pulling out of Gaza and then settling half of the West Bank do not a withdraw make.

Well Clinton's name is associated with the Northern-Irish peace process, so i daresay he wants hois own feather in his cap, with peace in the M.East. Nice addition to destroying Terrorism he will also bring peace and democracy to Palestine and Israel. Oh My hero!

But it's gonna have to have a AIPAC/Anti-Defamation League stamp of approval...so in another words...no true peace.

Those tanks cost money too.

ALOT less than it takes to maintain and operate helicopters. Since they're built and maintained within Israel, they can operate them longer at a much lesser cost.

Pulling out of Gaza and then settling half of the West Bank do not a withdraw make.

A complete withdrawal, no it isn't. But its a step towards such a resolution. Its funny that the people who cry out for Palestinian freedom and against Israel, have for years called for such withrawals, and now when they're actually happening, they're more critical than ever.

Give Israel a bit of time. This is a giant step, considering their policies of the past, and considering that Palestinian aggression continues, I'm frankly amazed its continuing.

sovtek

Deleted User wrote:

ALOT less than it takes to maintain and operate helicopters. Since they're built and maintained within Israel, they can operate them longer at a much lesser cost.

Money they don't spend on attack helicopters is money they can spend on other things. The US is basically giving $14,630 to every Israeli.

A complete withdrawal, no it isn't. But its a step towards such a resolution. Its funny that the people who cry out for Palestinian freedom and against Israel, have for years called for such withrawals, and now when they're actually happening, they're more critical than ever.

Because we've heard about these so called withdrawals over the past decade that it's quite realistic to expect it's not a cynical political ploy.

Give Israel a bit of time. This is a giant step, considering their policies of the past, and considering that Palestinian aggression continues, I'm frankly amazed its continuing.

A giant step towards more Israeli expansion (minus the wall of course) and farther from the hopes of a true viable state of Palestine. The Israeli's have had 60 years or more...patience is understandably wearing thin.
Frankly I'm amazed that suicide bombings aren't a daily occurence, considering the daily murders committed by the IDF. That would sugget to me that the Palestinians are quite a durable/peaceful people.

Money they don't spend on attack helicopters is money they can spend on other things. The US is basically giving $14,630 to every Israeli.

well I take it then that every Israeli doesn't need to work since they're getting the grant from the US.

The money allocated is given to the Israeli Government. Mainly through military expenditure. The average Israel would never see that money.

But regardless the point was made that if Bush withdrew the money that supported the helicopters Israel might prove more responsive. Personally I doubt it. They know how to survive & fight without foreign aid.

Because we've heard about these so called withdrawals over the past decade that it's quite realistic to expect it's not a cynical political ploy.

I guess so. The same way people looked at the N.Ireland process. But it happened. Perhaps if people are a little less cynical abt Israel, this peace might also. God knows i've been pleasantly suprised with the IRA's actions over the last decade.

A giant step towards more Israeli expansion (minus the wall of course) and farther from the hopes of a true viable state of Palestine. The Israeli's have had 60 years or more...patience is understandably wearing thin.

60 Years of Patience? Bugger that. I'd give them 10 years of patience. Before that the occupation was warrented. Now its not. And continued attacks on Israel by Palestinian forces is not patience.

Frankly I'm amazed that suicide bombings aren't a daily occurence, considering the daily murders committed by the IDF.

LoL. and if i said the same abt Israeli's being peaceful I'd get my head bitten off. I'd place the IDF's "Murders" up there with your precious "Palestinian Freedom forces" Murders. Neither side is particularly innocent.

That would sugget to me that the Palestinians are quite a durable/peaceful people.

I agree. the average palestinian could very well be. Just as the average Israeli person wants to live in peace, grow crops, make money and watch their children grow.

The problem lies with both sides governments both official and unofficial. Paramilitary and Governmental power plays.

sovtek

Deleted User wrote:

well I take it then that every Israeli doesn't need to work since they're getting the grant from the US.

The money allocated is given to the Israeli Government. Mainly through military expenditure. The average Israel would never see that money.

But every penny they don't have to spend on offense, they can spend on the average Israeli.

They know how to survive & fight without foreign aid.

And when did this start?

I guess so. The same way people looked at the N.Ireland process. But it happened. Perhaps if people are a little less cynical abt Israel, this peace might also. God knows i've been pleasantly suprised with the IRA's actions over the last decade.

Last I checked the IRA were more like the PLO and less like the IDF. In this case the Israeli's would be the British Military in NI.
If Israel was a little less cynical about their treatment of the Palestinians..then maybe some peace might happen.

60 Years of Patience? Bugger that. I'd give them 10 years of patience. Before that the occupation was warrented. Now its not. And continued attacks on Israel by Palestinian forces is not patience.

The IDF kill innocent and militants alike on a dialy basis.....how is an occasional suicide bomber not an amazing amount of restraint on the part of 60 year refugees.
How is it warranted when a bunch of European Jews all the sudden decided that Palestine belonged to them?

LoL. and if i said the same abt Israeli's being peaceful I'd get my head bitten off. I'd place the IDF's "Murders" up there with your precious "Palestinian Freedom forces" Murders. Neither side is particularly innocent.

And where did I say that ALL the Palestinians are innocent.
What I'm saying is that Israel is aggressor the vast majority of attacks as well as being the occupier for about 60 years.
That suicide bombings only came about 10 years ago says alot about the Palestinians as a people.




I agree. the average palestinian could very well be. Just as the average Israeli person wants to live in peace, grow crops, make money and watch their children grow.

The problem lies with both sides governments both official and unofficial. Paramilitary and Governmental power plays.[/QUOTE]

But every penny they don't have to spend on offense, they can spend on the average Israeli.

I understand that. You understand that. But that has got very little to do with the question. The remark was

"Of course if Bush truly wanted a peace settlement he could have it in five minutes. Tell Sharon he has to pay for his own attack helicopters from now on and they'd pull out "in a jiffy"."

Which is in relation to their military, which would be capable of fighting on without US support. Sure it would be harder for them, but I'd guess that they'd take a more hardline approach than ever.

And when did this start?

1948, since Israel's recreation.

Last I checked the IRA were more like the PLO and less like the IDF. In this case the Israeli's would be the British Military in NI.

Okies. Well you're looking at the PLO and hoping that they'll turn peaceful. I'm looking at the IDF and hoping the same. I'm cynical abt Palestinian groups actually wanting peace, just as you're cynical abt Israel wanting peace.

But whichever way you look at it, the first steps have been made. And that deserves some credibility.

The IDF kill innocent and militants alike on a dialy basis.....how is an occasional suicide bomber not an amazing amount of restraint on the part of 60 year refugees.

The occasional suicide bomber.. Not all attacks are made by suicide bombers.

And the IDF personally kill at least 1 Palestinian every single day? Really. Care to support that with any hard facts?

The IDF kill palestinians. Thats a fact. They've done so in the past, and I'm sure they'll do so again. They've killed women & children. I'm not ignoring that, or going to justify that in any way. Its wrong. However, don't blind yourself to the idea that Palestinian forces are any better to either Israeli people or their own people.

That suicide bombings only came about 10 years ago says alot about the Palestinians as a people.

Where did you get this info? Got any links?

And where did I say that ALL the Palestinians are innocent.

You didn't. Your language structure made it sound like you did. My apologies.

What I'm saying is that Israel is aggressor the vast majority of attacks as well as being the occupier for about 60 years.

Occupier, definetly. Goes without saying.

Aggressor, tricky one. There's been a fair share of encouragement made by the PLO and the IDF to keep this war going. Israeli forces "responding" to Pleatinian attacks, and Palestinian forces attacking Israeli positions in a fight for their freedom.

Aggressor, I dunno which is worse. Israel for occupying an enemy for 60 years, or Palestinian forces for fighting the way they do.

mycroft

Deleted User wrote:

1948, since Israel's recreation.

klaz Israeli is the biggest recipient of US aid in the world, and have been for decades. Currently recieiving 4.6 billion dollars in aid a year. Over a third of that is purely military aid. How can anyone take a US bid for peace in the middle east remotely seriously when they are giving vast amounts of guns to one side. And how can anyone claim that Israeli is standing alone like some tiny frighten child since they're probably the best equiped military in the world courtesy of the US of A

bonkey

mycroft wrote:

How can anyone take a US bid for peace in the middle east remotely seriously when they are giving vast amounts of guns to one side.

So do you believe that the US is also trying to provoke a war between China and Taiwan? After all, they're giving vast amounts of military aid to one side there, also in the name of peace...

jc

vorbis

They do have a lot of their own equipment. Granted they would still struggle without them. isn't this a bit beside the point, you'll refuse to believe in any attempt made by the us for peace simply because they have an alliance with one side. It would be in the US's self interest to stabilise the middle east. Great propaganda value. Simply rejecting any initiative from them is what causes the impasses.

Hobbes

Direct confrontation with China and the US just isn't going to happen. Most of US goods and outsourcing comes from China (and some via India). It would be cutting the nose to spite the face as it were.

Add to that the lovely kickback Bushes brother recently got from the Chinese, I find it doubtful.