Luas Crushing / Suffocating

deevey

Anyone been involved (or caused) any of the Luas crushes of late,

Trying to get to town on saturdays is nuts, and saturday just gone was pure mental, (about 12.30) with the rugby and shopper families

now I'm not a chlostraphobic type person, but when you are sprawled cop style against a window because of a stupidly full cabin, and just know that there is a serious possibility of passing out with lack of oxegen theres somthing wrong, surely on days like this (match / christmas shopping run up) they should have some sort of "security" persons in place at the stops to ensure no-one gets injured ? (for the first few weeks they had people on to tell commuters how to pay for a ticket)

Now I would say I'm reasonably young n' healthy, but "if" I had been slighty older or younger and less healthy ?

I'v already seen one person fainting on an early morning (not-as-packed-as-saturday) tram, the way things are going right now (and its only november) whats the christmas season going to bring? kids getting trampled by someone trying to pack in their reindeer?

Not knocking the fact that it gets me to town quicker, but I'v never felt in danger of suffication on the bus...

Any thoughts or similar experiences ?

P.S. this is the tallaght line I'm on.

dmeehan

rush hour darts have been like that for years!

cajun_tiger

i hate being so short for this reason i just feel trapped and panic. i stopped gettin it coz i felt like trowing up i couldnt get any air

BrianD

... public transport systems are the same the world over at rush hour. No different here!

bringitdown

Should get better when they ramp em up to every 5 minutes... which is planned for "in a few weeks time"

John R

bringitdown wrote:

Should get better when they ramp em up to every 5 minutes... which is planned for "in a few weeks time"

It is not going to happen anytime soon, definitely not before christmas anyway.

Nuttzz

You should see the central line on the London Underground at 5.30 on an average evening, no fun if you have a case with you or if it has been pi$$ing rain

RuggieBear

Nuttzz wrote:

You should see the central line on the London Underground at 5.30 on an average evening, no fun if you have a case with you or if it has been pi$$ing rain

i was going to mention the london underground too.....done darts for years but nothing compares to the Underground in the middle of summer at 5.30pm.....possibly the worst 20mins of my life....jammed up against everybody else, no air to breathe, sweating like a pig, must have lost about half a kilo...there was a puddle beneath me by the time most people got off at Victoria.....

Gizzard

this is not news

dmeehan

RuggieBear wrote:

i was going to mention the london underground too.....done darts for years but nothing compares to the Underground in the middle of summer at 5.30pm.....possibly the worst 20mins of my life....jammed up against everybody else, no air to breathe, sweating like a pig, must have lost about half a kilo...there was a puddle beneath me by the time most people got off at Victoria.....

it doesnt beat being stuck on a packed dart at booterstown with the smell of rotting seaweed wafting in through all the open windows on a hot summers day

RuggieBear

dmeehan wrote:

it doesnt beat being stuck on a packed dart at booterstown with the smell of rotting seaweed wafting in through all the open windows on a hot summers day

i've been there mate!!! and i'll take it over my experience on the Underground any day

dazberry

deevey wrote:

Anyone been involved (or caused) any of the Luas crushes of late [snip]

One day I'd a girl standing in front of me with a back-pack. She was quite small and everytime the Luas lurched I'd get the back-pack straight in the nuts. I was crammed in so much I couldn't turn, so I just had to tense up and hold my breath every time the thing lurched. Not pleasant.

I gave up and went back to the bus. I didn't find it too bad standing once you don't get crushed. Unfortunately most mornings it was the same once we reached Heuston.

Admittedly its been a long time since I've been on the DART during rush-hour, but thankfully I've never had to experience the London Underground.

D.

Metrobest

BrianD wrote:

... public transport systems are the same the world over at rush hour. No different here!

In most other developed countries rush hour transport is quite comfortable, actually. The exceptions would be the London Underground... and dear old Dublin.

fletch

I have gotten the Luas a few times and found it no different to the Dárt really.
Really annoyed me the 1st week when I got on it when it was free...All I could hear was snooby southside women who had obviously never experienced rush hour traffic in their lives, screaming that the trams were overcrowded when they were only just comparable to the Dárts and trains. :rolleyes:

MrPudding

I think the underground in Tokyo also suffers from severe overcrowding, I have no personal experience of that though. I have been on the London underground and Paris Metro at peak times. Neither is pleasant. I don’t think it is unusual for public transport to be crowded at peak times.

MrP

mrblack

RuggieBear wrote:

i was going to mention the london underground too.....done darts for years but nothing compares to the Underground in the middle of summer at 5.30pm.....possibly the worst 20mins of my life....jammed up against everybody else, no air to breathe, sweating like a pig, must have lost about half a kilo...there was a puddle beneath me by the time most people got off at Victoria.....

Dunno about London U/G but I gave up taking the train from Leixlip to Connolly last year coz it was like the Indian railway system -packed, hot, sticky and slow too. Now I take my car to work -its got air con and is a civilised if frustrating form of transport.

mrblack

P11 Comms

Metrobest wrote:

In most other developed countries rush hour transport is quite comfortable, actually. The exceptions would be the London Underground... and dear old Dublin.

I have been on the New York Subway, Paris Metro, Oslo Metro, StuttgarttS-Bahn, Montreal Metro, Prague Metro, Manchester Metro, Vienna Metro, Moscow Metro, London Underground and few others at rush hour and they have all been packed. In Japan they even have people employed at stations to push people into carraiges.

Packed rush hour commuter trains and trams are the norm in all developed countries. It seems that only here in Ireland do some people expect them to be empty and provide a cooked Full Irish breakfast. I think that comes mainly from the fact that until recent times Irish people had no real experience of rail commuting in this country.

Metrobest

P11 Comms wrote:

I have been on the New York Subway, Paris Metro, Oslo Metro, StuttgarttS-Bahn, Montreal Metro, Prague Metro, Manchester Metro, Vienna Metro, Moscow Metro, London Underground and few others at rush hour and they have all been packed. In Japan they even have people employed at stations to push people into carraiges.

Packed rush hour commuter trains and trams are the norm in all developed countries. It seems that only here in Ireland do some people expect them to be empty and provide a cooked Full Irish breakfast. I think that comes mainly from the fact that until recent times Irish people had no real experience of rail commuting in this country.

At rush hour I've used metro systems in: London, Paris, Rome, Berlin, Prague, Munich, Athens, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Milan, Barcelona, Cologne, Stockholm, Brussels...

The only system I found uncomfortably crowded was London's. So why would we choose to copy London, when there so many better European models upon which to design transport in Dublin?

murphaph

It just goes to show how people flock to rail based public tansport when it exists. Lucky the interconnector will allow 122,000 passengers per hour at peak times.

netwhizkid

Originally Posted by P11 Comms
I have been on the New York Subway

So have i, during rush hour and man was the crush terrible, i was told that durng summer months when its hot that the smell of human sweat, would make you vomit.
Then again this was a woman who told me this and they seem to have super-sensitive noses especially after a guy eats a fried onion and beans sandwich !!!

Regard netwhizkid

P11 Comms

murphaph wrote:

It just goes to show how people flock to rail based public tansport when it exists. Lucky the interconnector will allow 122,000 passengers per hour at peak times.

Which reminds me word on the street is that IE are going to announced the construction of the Spencer Dock station tomorrow.

case n basket

Whats the Sandyford line like these days? Still pure bliss compared to the London underground (at any time of day) I'd imagine.

Nothing quite beats coming in from the freezing winter air into the overly warm, stuffy tube station, followed by cramming into a train so full your face gets squashed up against the glass of the doors...

BrianD

Metrobest wrote:

The only system I found uncomfortably crowded was London's. So why would we choose to copy London, when there so many better European models upon which to design transport in Dublin?

I am a bit bemused by this statement! What is the "European model" and why is it different to the London Underground?? One could argue that the Underground is relatively old and evolved over time (as does any system) but the principals are no different to elsewhere.

I love the thread headline - Luas Crushing/Suffocation - nothing like a bit of outright exaggeration for effect! I have never been on any urban transport system anywhere in the world that does not suffer overcrowding at peak times.

Traffic

As mentioned before the frequency on the red line will be ramped up to 5 mins after xmas.
The RPA also have plans to extend the luas trams on the red line and run them at 4 mins intervals but this wont happen until 2006

paulinimus

Metrobest wrote:

At rush hour I've used metro systems in: London, Paris, Rome, Berlin, Prague, Munich, Athens, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Milan, Barcelona, Cologne, Stockholm, Brussels...

The only system I found uncomfortably crowded was London's. So why would we choose to copy London, when there so many better European models upon which to design transport in Dublin?

Ok, Ive used the Chicago and Warsaw metros. Warsaws (Warszawa) is very new but stilll busy at rush hour. Chicago - mostly over ground lineswith one or 2 u/g. The difference is the entertainment factor. In Chicago, there might be someone playing jazz underground or a crackpot looking for money on the carriages so people from the ghetto won't come up to you in a more undesireable place...
We just dont get any of those nutty entertaining types... We will have to come up with something..

Metrobest

BrianD wrote:

I am a bit bemused by this statement! What is the "European model" and why is it different to the London Underground?? One could argue that the Underground is relatively old and evolved over time (as does any system) but the principals are no different to elsewhere..

Well, let's see.. Britain is probably the most "anti Europe" country in the EU! London's transport has all the problems of Dublin's; just on a larger scale. It's badly integrated, not user-friendly and is creaking at the seams. Why would we want to adopt that model?

Metro systems don't have to be crushed. And they shouldn't be. Passengers have a right to a good quality of service. We should be ashamed that people feel they need to bring fold up deck chairs onto the Drogheda train just so they don't faint or feel dizzy. You're out of your mind if you believe people should "shut up and tolerate" these kinds of third world conditions.

What'll you come out with next? 'Ireland should adopt the Indian model!??'

deevey

I love the thread headline - Luas Crushing/Suffocation - nothing like a bit of outright exaggeration for effect! I have never been on any urban transport system anywhere in the world that does not suffer overcrowding at peak times.

Just becuase every other contries transport system is f**ked accoring to most of the replies, does that mean we have to follow suit.

BTW I was in london last week .... and taking the tube during rush hours in the rain, soggy, wet, sticky heat, depressing etc.. yes .. but not a sprawled against a window !

possibly the worst 20mins of my life

Excatly, the tube in most cases is a 20 min journey or transferring halfway through... so a bit of a break at least, its a lot less then the 40mins from red cow or longer from tallaght without a break.

I should point out my crushing situations on the Luas were not at what you might consider peak hours.... nope, between 10am - 1.30pm mon to fri is when I use it, and then Saturday and Sunday afternoons.

Packed rush hour commuter trains and trams are the norm in all developed countries. It seems that only here in Ireland do some people expect them to be empty and provide a cooked Full Irish breakfast

When spending up to 4 hours a day commuting why not ???

John R

deevey wrote:

When spending up to 4 hours a day commuting why not ???

Most trains here that have a journey time of two hours and over do provide catering.

OfflerCrocGod

John R wrote:

Most trains here that have a journey time of two hours and over do provide catering.

So you sleep in work?

RicardoSmith

BrianD wrote:

I love the thread headline - Luas Crushing/Suffocation - nothing like a bit of outright exaggeration for effect! I have never been on any urban transport system anywhere in the world that does not suffer overcrowding at peak times.

As it is some of the trains are so crowded that you actually can't physically squeeze another person onto the train, unless someone gets off. Personally I think the overcrowding is extremely dangerous. If there was an accident you are going to have 50-100 people standing in a carraige all being thrown forward. Thats per carraige. So what 500-700 hundred people standing on a train. Sadly it will take a few deaths before something is done about it.

On my route which takes 40-60mins I'd say I get a seat 1 in 10 journeys.

Victor

deevey wrote:

When spending up to 4 hours a day commuting why not ???

Perhaps you should look within to find a solution to your problem.

cdebru

Victor wrote:

Perhaps you should look within to find a solution to your problem.

its just a problem with this type of transport
there is no one to regulate how many people are packing in
with the bus the driver stops picking people up when the bus gets full

John R

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

So you sleep in work?

???

RicardoSmith

cdebru wrote:

its just a problem with this type of transport
there is no one to regulate how many people are packing in
with the bus the driver stops picking people up when the bus gets full

Yes theres no possible solution. We can put a man on the moon 40yrs+ ago but we can't count people and seats on a train.

cdebru

RicardoSmith wrote:

Yes theres no possible solution. We can put a man on the moon 40yrs+ ago but we can't count people and seats on a train.

there is no problem counting it is employing staff for every door of every luas to stop people entering when the tram is full

RicardoSmith

cdebru wrote:

there is no problem counting it is employing staff for every door of every luas to stop people entering when the tram is full

I suppose letting a few people get killed is cheaper....

cdebru

RicardoSmith wrote:

I suppose letting a few people get killed is cheaper....

i didn't say that although i would not be surprised if they had done that calculation

i merely pointed out it is a problem with this type of public transport
that is a fact on the dart and all over the world where you can not restrict acess people will keep cramming in as they would on the buses except they are prevented by the driver or conducter whichever is the case

RicardoSmith

If its a daily occurance then it becomes a major safety and health issue, not simply a matter of inconvience which seems to be what your suggesting.

enterprise

Metrobest wrote:

It's badly integrated, not user-friendly and is creaking at the seams. Why would we want to adopt that model?

Badly intergrated?

C'mon for god sake. London has one of the best intergrated systems to my knowledge.

Travelcards, which are available in 1 day, 3 day, 7 day, 30 day and I assume annual give you access to National Rail, London Underground, Docklands Light Rail, Croydon Tramlink, London Buses and a reduction of River ferries.

Also you can tailor your travelcard to how many zones you need to travel in. E.g all zones (6) would be the most expensive while travelling within 1 zone would be the cheapest.

If Dublin ever had such a system - I would die happy.

RicardoSmith

Munich had an integrated system when I was there 10yrs ago.

BrianD

Metrobest I can see zero difference between the London Underground and any other metro system is Europe. Perhaps you might like to point out the differences as you didn't in your last post - particularly how it is not integrated. Odd given that the Tube and is an icon of the metro world. The Tube map is a design classic - for its simplicity and ease of use - as are many of the stations. Navigating the Underground is a doddle. Let's face it London is a big and densely populated city - the only way you will get rid of the overcrowding at peak times is to tell some of them to get back in their cars.

Other cities have built systems that may currently exceed their needs at the moment but eventually end up like every other system - packed to the gills. They just don't have the population densities that London has. Other cities have extravagant systems - an oversupply of public transport - that have to be paid for by the tax payer.

vector

If I may hijack the thread....

Isin't conjestion or overpopulation responsible for most of todays
newsworthy problems, the sort of problems mentioned during elections.

Accident & Emergency overcrowding.
Houses being too expensive as demand exceeds supply, premium pricing.
Traffic conjestion.
Full Public Transport.
The Leaving Cer points race.

Even consider walking down a city street, having to avoid people vs a small town aren't there too many people around in general?

ando

I love my car

cdebru

RicardoSmith wrote:

If its a daily occurance then it becomes a major safety and health issue, not simply a matter of inconvience which seems to be what your suggesting.

when did i say this was only an inconvience

i pointed out that it is a problem with this type of transport without employing about four times the number of staff they have at the moment i can not see how you can solve this who would pay for this it would make the cost of using the luas prohibitive
end of story

i did not suggest anything

RicardoSmith

I said "seemed to be". If you're not then fine.

I don't see how employing and extra 5 or 10 staff would raise the cost of the Luas that much. Personally I've never seen overcrowding anywhere else in the world like I see here on the trains almost every day. I'm sure its bad in Tokyo and parts of the 3rd world. But this is Ireland for cripes sake.

What annoys me is the development that feeds this. They are building more and more housing, in areas where the transport infrastructure is operating at levels way beyond capacity at peak time.

BrianD

Ricardo you are the money about our poorly planned urban development. Most of the sprawl that is now extending beyond Dublin can not be economically and effectively served by public transport (with the exception of buses).

I would prefer to see higher density within the city limits (which will lead to more over crowding). However the DART overcrowding can be solved by higher frequency of serrvice which is dependent on other projects (signalling etc.) being completed quickly. If the former Minister for transport had not wasted our time with the airport metro white elephant we could have given these projects priority and got on with it.

The irony of the situation is that out side of peak times you can almost chose your own carriage on the DART and LUAS. Off topic, I note that the M1 only operates at a fraction of capacity beyond the airport yet they want to build another two motorways (M2 & M3) to the west of it. This money would be better spent on rail and mass transit infrastructure.

deevey

out side of peak times

.....Sunday Afternoons ? ... I dont have a problem with crushing during the week.

BTW, on the luas today (sunday) there was 4 staff on the tram, to tell people when no more could get on, so looks like somthing is being done , thank gawd becuse it would've been another window sprawl otherwise.

jonny68

RuggieBear wrote:

i was going to mention the london underground too.....done darts for years but nothing compares to the Underground in the middle of summer at 5.30pm.....possibly the worst 20mins of my life....jammed up against everybody else, no air to breathe, sweating like a pig, must have lost about half a kilo...there was a puddle beneath me by the time most people got off at Victoria.....

Having lived in London and unfortunately had to use the tube on a daily basis i know where your coming from,one time the tube (Northern Line) was stuck in a tunel during the rush hour 5pm for 35 mins,i thought i was gonna pass in fact i think several people did,ive been on the LUAS when its been packed and it is uncomfortable but nothing is worse than being stuck on a tube in a tunnel with no air..... :eek:

Metrobest

BrianD wrote:

Metrobest I can see zero difference between the London Underground and any other metro system is Europe. Perhaps you might like to point out the differences as you didn't in your last post - particularly how it is not integrated. Odd given that the Tube and is an icon of the metro world. The Tube map is a design classic - for its simplicity and ease of use - as are many of the stations. Navigating the Underground is a doddle. Let's face it London is a big and densely populated city - the only way you will get rid of the overcrowding at peak times is to tell some of them to get back in their cars.

Other cities have built systems that may currently exceed their needs at the moment but eventually end up like every other system - packed to the gills. They just don't have the population densities that London has. Other cities have extravagant systems - an oversupply of public transport - that have to be paid for by the tax payer.

I can't see where you're coming from; this romanticised notion of London transport. Most people in London hate the tube, with just cause - it's far too crowded, creaking at the seams, the carraiges themselves are badly shaped and frequencies leave a lot to be desired: "every 3-9 minutes" essentially means the service is random. No Londoner will praise the tube. Just because it has a nice map doesn't mean you should have to endure appaling conditions in rush hour.

Cars are a fact of that life; but central areas of cities should be where public transport is at its best. In Dublin's case it's at its worst. That's where a central Dublin metro would come into play. Why not have an oversupply of public transport? I don't think you can ever have "too much" public transport - that's like saying you can have "too much' oxygen. The taxpayer won't complain when their quality of life shoots up with terriffic public transport in Dublin, should it be built.

RicardoSmith

Metrobest wrote:

.... "every 3-9 minutes" essentially means the service is random...

My route is more like every hour, 3-9 minutes would be amazing....

Victor

I was on the Nitelink home last night and it passed a tram. There was a couple sitting in the front row.

Her: "Oh, look the Luas is still running, is it busy?"
Him "It's **packed**."

About 5 people were standing and most seats were occupied. :rolleyes: