DIY guns

Irishglockfan

Folks,
does anyone know what is the story with building your own gun here in ireland?I was looking at some of the ar15 and govt 45 kits for sale in the USA.You buy all the parts ,bar the reciver[which is classified as THE actual firearm in the US]you can also buy the compleated reciver but it is regd as a firearm.Now you can buy an 80% finished reciver,that requires some extensive work either with drill and file or machine shop work,80% finished means it is not a firearm yet,it is a semi machined lump of metal and it needs still 20% finishing before it is a reciver,usually the most difficult finishing processes,and under US law you can build your own gun[read YOU,only, you must build it yourself,no sneaking off to a machine shop to get the holes drilled and tapped or whatever.You cant sell it,give it away ,whatever it is yours PERMANTLY.]Of course this doesnt apply over here about building your own gun for free or getting a machine shop to build the reciver.

But I would be intrested to know that if you bought the 80%reciver and kit,built the gun over here had the nos stamped on it or engraved ,then applied for the lic,how would yo stand?Or reverse the above process to be safer.Remember the critical parts are all manufactured available parts parts,not some sort of restrengthend deactivated thing.
most reasons people do this;
they have enough parts to put together an extra gun
It saves some money [appx $300 USD on a AR15]
some folks really want their own built from scratch gun.

Those that I have found kits for are and in ease to build apprently;
Sten SMG,
Mac 10,11,and 12 and carbine derivitives thereof
derringers in various shapes and cals
AR15
AK 47
HK G3
FN FAL
m1 carbine
M1 Garand
Colt 45 and browning HP9mm
Needless to say the above rifles do need to be made in semi auto only.
$10k fine and 10 yrs in Club Fed in the US for unlisencsed possesion of a class3 weapon[machine gun]

So what would you folk think of the legality,feasability,or ity of this project?

Also do any of you folks have or know of anyone who built their own gun here from scratch and liscensed it?Or built one on the QT ?no names or packdrill need be mentioned of course.I am always fasinated by improvised firearms and here in Ireland we seem to have a rich tradition of doing so.
EG the so called Harland & Wolff specials or Ulster funnyguns,made in the early years of the NI troubles.This in itself would make i think a fasinating book or study.

civdef

I heard stories once of shotguns being made in a Bord Na Mona workshop during the winter months when not much work was on. Apparently they worked reasonable well too.

The Garda ballistics section firearms collection in the Phoenix Park (well worth a visit if you can swing it btw) has a variety of DIY firearms, from the crude and dangerous to the really quite sophisticated. As the guard showing me around commented, instead of jail, they deserved a FAS grant.

gouda

Irishglockfan wrote:

Folks,
does anyone know what is the story with building your own gun here in ireland?I was looking at some of the ar15 and govt 45 kits for sale in the USA.You buy all the parts ,bar the reciver[which is classified as THE actual firearm in the US]you can also buy the compleated reciver but it is regd as a firearm.Now you can buy an 80% finished reciver,that requires some extensive work either with drill and file or machine shop work,80% finished means it is not a firearm yet,it is a semi machined lump of metal and it needs still 20% finishing before it is a reciver,usually the most difficult finishing processes,and under US law you can build your own gun[read YOU,only, you must build it yourself,no sneaking off to a machine shop to get the holes drilled and tapped or whatever.You cant sell it,give it away ,whatever it is yours PERMANTLY.]Of course this doesnt apply over here about building your own gun for free or getting a machine shop to build the reciver.

But I would be intrested to know that if you bought the 80%reciver and kit,built the gun over here had the nos stamped on it or engraved ,then applied for the lic,how would yo stand?Or reverse the above process to be safer.Remember the critical parts are all manufactured available parts parts,not some sort of restrengthend deactivated thing.
most reasons people do this;
they have enough parts to put together an extra gun
It saves some money [appx $300 USD on a AR15]
some folks really want their own built from scratch gun.

Those that I have found kits for are and in ease to build apprently;
Sten SMG,
Mac 10,11,and 12 and carbine derivitives thereof
derringers in various shapes and cals
AR15
AK 47
HK G3
FN FAL
m1 carbine
M1 Garand
Colt 45 and browning HP9mm
Needless to say the above rifles do need to be made in semi auto only.
$10k fine and 10 yrs in Club Fed in the US for unlisencsed possesion of a class3 weapon[machine gun]

So what would you folk think of the legality,feasability,or ity of this project?

Also do any of you folks have or know of anyone who built their own gun here from scratch and liscensed it?Or built one on the QT ?no names or packdrill need be mentioned of course.I am always fasinated by improvised firearms and here in Ireland we seem to have a rich tradition of doing so.
EG the so called Harland & Wolff specials or Ulster funnyguns,made in the early years of the NI troubles.This in itself would make i think a fasinating book or study.

Assuming it could be done legally,how do you proof it? We do not have a proof house here so that would mean sending it to the UK where semi auto weapons are not legal if larger than .22 rimfire. Seems like it would be more trouble than it's worth. Unless you wanted to proof it yourself! Loads for proofing are approx 1.6 times a normal load and if the gun doesn't explode it is reckoned to be in proof. I think I would attach a long piece of string to the trigger and have a strong wall between me and the gun in question.

Sparks

I don't know about semi-auto or kit guns glock, but there was an article only a few months ago (june or july I think) in the Irish Shooters Digest about a gunsmith making a new bolt-action rifle from scratch. It gave the impression that it's a bit of a challange to get the paperwork required. (Which does seem to be a recurring theme in Ireland for anything out of the mainstream, to be honest).

GreenGun

Building guns that go bang is very easy.
Back in the 1920’s gangsters made “zip guns” out of piping that fired .45 They usually worked fine for a few shots before finally detonating in their hands (causing him more than a little discomfort).

Making a precision firearm capable of aggregate groups in the .2 MOA (or better) is a different matter.
Under Irish law you must be a registered firearms dealer before you can manufacture any firearm. You must have the firearm proofed. The absence of a proof house in Ireland is “not the departments problem” so I’m told. You can also expect very regular visits from your local Gardai! Who are just waiting for a promotion opportunity! A lot of truth in that cartoon in this months digest!!!
The person who built the gun featured in the digest knows what he is doing!

The guys in the US who are building the AR’s etc. normally use a jig which they either buy or rent. You can of course do it with out but you may go through a few forgings before you get it correct. (Assuming you don’t have a gunsmith’s workshop already)
I assisted on an AR build a few years ago it’s a lot of work…..
Easier to buy it!
You can get 80% finished forging in the US but that will need an import according to the DOJ.
Still easier to buy it!

Cheers,
GreenGun

civdef

Is proofing in force?

The FIREARMS (PROOFING) ACT, 1968, set up a framework for proofing in Ireland, but there seems to have been no Ministerial Orders made under the act to require the proof of firearms. The only order made set up the technical details of proof in Ireland.

This is backed up by the fact that guns are routinely sold in Ireland without any proof marks, firearms from the USA, for example don't have proof marks.

Isn't the whole proof thing very empirical anyway? When it was introduced in centuries past it had a justification, but engineering has moved on a long way since. The British cling to it religiously though, with attendant silliness like needing to have a rifle reproved after having the muzzle threaded. If I was to be cynical, I might suggest that it's just another layer of beaurocracy against shooting. I note rifle clubs here are now insisting that any rifles that have had barrel modifications can not be shot on their ranges without a valid proof cert for the modification. This apparently is at the behest of the insurers. Where do they stand on rifles that never had a proof in the first place?

http://193.178.1.79/1968_20.html

GreenGun

civdef wrote:

The FIREARMS (PROOFING) ACT, 1968, set up a framework for proofing in Ireland, but there seems to have been no Ministerial Orders made under the act to require the proof of firearms. The only order made set up the technical details of proof in Ireland.

This is backed up by the fact that guns are routinely sold in Ireland without any proof marks, firearms from the USA, for example don't have proof marks.

Some very good points civdef.
The act was as you say never signed into law by the minister but I have been warned that it comes into force after some arbitrary number of days any way.

civdef wrote:

I note rifle clubs here are now insisting that any rifles that have had barrel modifications can not be shot on their ranges without a valid proof cert for the modification. This apparently is at the behest of the insurers. Where do they stand on rifles that never had a proof in the first place?

I have heard about this club requirement so I went to the Insurers and asked them.
They told me they had no such requirement and they had not asked any club to query proof of any firearms.
So any club asking for a valid proof cert has an ulterior motive and is not doing so at the behest of the insurers!
Mabey they don’t like you!!!

Indecently firearms retrofitted with a silencer in the UK do not need to be reproofed unless the barrel has been "unduly reduced in Substance or Strength".

civdef

It was signed into law - here's a link to the commencement order.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI64Y1969.html

It was only really an enabling act though, and the necessary ministerial orders to require proofing were never made.

As for the insurance / proofing thing, the details went out in a letter to all members, must look at it again to see the detail of it.

gouda

civdef wrote:

Is proofing in force?

The FIREARMS (PROOFING) ACT, 1968, set up a framework for proofing in Ireland, but there seems to have been no Ministerial Orders made under the act to require the proof of firearms. The only order made set up the technical details of proof in Ireland.

This is backed up by the fact that guns are routinely sold in Ireland without any proof marks, firearms from the USA, for example don't have proof marks.

Isn't the whole proof thing very empirical anyway? When it was introduced in centuries past it had a justification, but engineering has moved on a long way since. The British cling to it religiously though, with attendant silliness like needing to have a rifle reproved after having the muzzle threaded. If I was to be cynical, I might suggest that it's just another layer of beaurocracy against shooting. I note rifle clubs here are now insisting that any rifles that have had barrel modifications can not be shot on their ranges without a valid proof cert for the modification. This apparently is at the behest of the insurers. Where do they stand on rifles that never had a proof in the first place?

http://193.178.1.79/1968_20.html

Where are unproofed firearms being sold? Proof marks do not last forever,used guns could look OK but be out of proof if they were tested, no guarantee that a used gun will not blow up in your face. UK proof houses usually use a charge one and a half times larger than a normal factory load to check proof. If reloading was "legal" here shooters could proof their own guns by using the same method as UK proof houses.I don't think Proof Houses in the UK are Government agencies,they are run as a business.
I have a US made rifle and it has proof marks. Ireland has agreed to accept Proof marks from other countries . All firearms which are threaded in the UK must be re-proofed and also the moderator must also be proofed as it is regarded as a firearm under UK law. Not 100% sure on Air Rifles or Air Rifle moderators. I have seen one Parker Hale .22 moderator with UK proof marks. I asked DoJ about proofing and have attached their reply.

civdef

Unproofed firearms are sold anywhere American guns (including new ones) are sold (if imported via the UK they'll have UK proof marks). There is no national proof system for the USA.

There is also no proof system in Ireland. There is no legal obligation to proof firearms in Ireland. There is an act (see above) which allows the relevant minister to sign an order requiring proof for certain types of firearm, but this has not been done.

Proof marks do not last forever,used guns could look OK but be out of proof if they were tested, no guarantee that a used gun will not blow up in your face.

There is no guarantee that a gun that was proofed will not blow up on the very next shot. The process is an empirical one, and non-destructive testing techniques have moved on an awful lot since it was introduced.

I have no problem with the concept that firearms should be safe before being sold. I don't believe an antiquated approach is the way to do this.

Irishglockfan

As for the proof marks.
YES any US imported guns into Europe will have "landfall" proof house marks.
As pointed out the USA does not have proof marks.
.Barrels and "uppers" in the case of the AR15 are either civillian or milspec.Keeping product liability and lucrative military contracts in mind I would have no trouble using these parts.And some of these uppers and home builts shoot regulary at Camp Perry.

Sooo I see the following "problem"you need a gunsmith to build it.Now do we have a qualified"gunsmith" here in Ireland?In european law that means somone with a five years apprenticeship under a recognised guild and paperwork to prove he is a qualifed gunsmith.Not a gun dealer and repairer or tinkerer[however good and gifted].So proably you might as well just buy the stripped lower[the ffl part or registerable part in the US] and "build"your own rifle.Really pushing in pins and springs& things.

As far as i can see this is another thing that isnt really coverd by Irish law.
So long it goes bang, and isnt a pistol[pre 04 thought??] liscense it. As i mentioned re serial nos,my friend who had built his own SemiAuto 22,certainly wouldn ot have had proof marks.Again it seems to apply to gunsmiths ,the law not taking into consideration the DIY movement.
Think the only way to do this is try and see.
Again irish law seems to be so archaic or ambigious on firearms and its surrounds that they can use anything to close you down.

Theortically it is even illegal to give anyone instruction in gun saftey,as it can be classifed under some other law [forget which]as training and drilling in the use of arms.

Had a look at the instructions on my Parker Hale sound modifer
"the law"
In the Uk sound moderators fitted to a 22 cartridge firing firearm require a variation to the FAC before purchase.Air rifles do not need a lic or cert.[abbreviations mine]

GreenGun

Section 10.1 of the 1925 firearms act “On and after the commencement of this Act it shall not be lawful for any person to manufacture, sell, repair, test, or prove, or expose for sale, or have in his possession for sale, repair, test, or proof, by way of trade or business, any firearm or ammunition unless such person is registered in the register of firearms dealers.”
I take it that your reading is that if you want to DIY you are not manufacture.
I am not disagreeing with that but it would be difficult/impossible to stay the right side of the law with out been an RDF.

Irishglockfan wrote:

Now do we have a qualified"gunsmith" here in Ireland?

Yes we have a few (I know two who would meet your definition of a Gunsmith).

Irishglockfan wrote:

In european law that means somone with a five years apprenticeship under a recognised guild and paperwork to prove he is a qualifed gunsmith.

In Germany they must also sit an exam.
I am unaware of this European law please forward info on it to me.

Irishglockfan wrote:

Not a gun dealer and repairer or tinkerer[however good and gifted].

As far as I know quite a few of the top gunsmiths in the UK would not have directly qualifed as gunsmiths!
Would someone with a B-Eng (honors) degree, several years experience of precision engineering and training with gunsmiths in the UK, Germany and the USA be able to be considered a gunsmith and not just a tinkerer?

I heard FAS have been sending someone to the UK to train as a gunsmith!
Any truth in it?

Ok lads one government body at a time we'll get there!!!

Thanks
GreenGun.

Irishglockfan

GreenGun wrote:

Section 10.1 of the 1925 firearms act “On and after the commencement of this Act it shall not be lawful for any person to manufacture, sell, repair, test, or prove, or expose for sale, or have in his possession for sale, repair, test, or proof, by way of trade or business, any firearm or ammunition unless such person is registered in the register of firearms dealers.”
I take it that your reading is that if you want to DIY you are not manufacture.
I am not disagreeing with that but it would be difficult/impossible to stay the right side of the law with out been an RDF.

Yet again there are cases of DIY guns being regd and not made by firearms dealers.
i suppose if i import the regd lower it already is a firearm,so therefore i am not "making "a gun

Yes we have a few (I know two who would meet your definition of a Gunsmith).

Could you PM me with a contact no or address?I need someone who can run up and fit a stock to a shotgun that fits me properly.

In Germany they must also sit an exam.
I am unaware of this European law please forward info on it to me.

Sorry,badly worded in the European context i should have meant countries that have their act together on firearms laws and have a tradition of gunmaking.UK,Germany ,Austria,France,Belguim,Switzerland,Italy all AFIK have a five to seven year apprenticeship before you go onto being qualified.
Dont worry,no doubt the EU will harmonise it all into one god awful mess of laws.

As far as I know quite a few of the top gunsmiths in the UK would not have directly qualifed as gunsmiths!
Would someone with a B-Eng (honors) degree, several years experience of precision engineering and training with gunsmiths in the UK, Germany and the USA be able to be considered a gunsmith and not just a tinkerer?

By me and any other shooter, most definately!!!! By a burrocrat and somone in a European country guild of gunsmiths,NO!Simply because you haven't sat THEIR tests,or spent the time and money aquiring THEIR skills!!

Also known as keeping a monopoly on a group of professions.



I heard FAS have been sending someone to the UK to train as a gunsmith!
Any truth in it?

Wouldn't surprise me!