Burn in Hell Al Queda (Margaret Hassan murdered)

Wolff

Al-Zarquawi is not linked to Al Queda anyway - as he has no clear defined political or religious agenda Bin Laden keeps his distance because he is a nutter

Its rumored that he doesnt even exist or has been killed - everytime he is mentioned as having an arm missing or a leg gone and then is seen beheading some poor unfortunate

Am I alone in seeing the link between this womans murder and the US soldier that was caught on tape doing the same to an injured man earlier this week

The comparison is chilling

mike65

Wolff wrote:

Am I alone in seeing the link between this womans murder and the US soldier that was caught on tape doing the same to an injured man earlier this week

The comparison is chilling

The tape of Hassans killing was in aljazeera hands before that incident.

Mike.

sovtek

chill wrote:

Thankfully this liberation is wiping thousands of these rabid slaughterers off the face of the earth and that makes fewer that we have to face in the future.

Thats kinda the chicken before the egg thing.
I distinctly remember the rabid slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis happening, ummmm starting about 2 years ago...which, by your logic, would mean that the more US troops that are killed by these rabid slaughterers the fewer we have to see in the future.

Saddam never hurt a hair on one of these guys arms...his penchant was torturing, gang raping and slaughtering his own innocent people.

All with the RNC stamp of approval, of course.

sovtek

Memnoch wrote:

one can only feel sorry for her and her family. They didn't deserve this.

So very true....

I would urge everyone to reflect however and think about the anger you feel over this woman's death, now multiply that for every single iraqi civillian that has been callously murdered by the coalition of the killing.

But I guess its okay if the coalition tell us its all for the purpose of democracy? Not so easy to write off the life of a western woman as it is to write off those of countless iraqis?

ditto

sovtek

This reminds me of a job posting I saw for a Systems Admin in Iraq less than a year ago.
It was for $50,000. Even at the time I remember thinking that it was a ridiculously low salary considering the danger.
ok back on topic.

sovtek

PH01 wrote:

They wanted to string it out as long as they could, get as much media milage out of her has they could, then kill her.

There those PR geniuses go again.
I wonder if they could get media marketing jobs once the media conglomerates take over Iraqi airwaves. :rolleyes:

Tuars

My feeling is that the motive behind the kidnapping was for a ransom rather than to make a political statement. The modus operandi of the kidnappers was different to the AZ attributed kidnappings. The fact that she was a westerner would have increased the value of a ransom.

Many Iraqis are kidnapped every day and it does not receive much press coverage. In most cases the motivation is money with hostages usually released once the ransom is paid.

I'm guessing that she may have been held in Falluja and when things started to heat up there she was murdered for expediency as her kidnappers were fleeing.

I don't think we can read much political significance into her kidnappers motivations.

SkepticOne

I would go along with Tuars. There was an envoy of (I think) the Church of England on the radio last night who believed that it was one several criminal groups who specialise in kidnappings. Hostages are traded among these groups and sometimes sold to the more political/religious groups like Al-Zarqawi's. Obviously she is of no use to Al-Zarqawi so they killed her. Probably lucky this was the case as she wasn't killed in the highly ritualised fashion that Al-Zarqawi specialises in.

A Dub in Glasgo

I would go along with what Tuars says

netwhizkid

I think personally, that this is a disaster, this woman Margaret Hassan was helping the Iraqi people, as one ordinary Iraqi interviewed by Euronews said these so called "rebels" where were they under Saddam, nowhere because they backed him up. After this my tone towards dubya has shifted every dead insurgent is a help and i personally now belive that islam is a major threat to this world that we live in. I knew the Margaret Hassans relations, her sister's husband taught me. They are honest down to earth people who never bothered anybody and for this tragedy to befall on them is a horrible.

Regards netwhizkid

Sand

Now saying that these people should burn in hell is not going to help this situation. Really now, is it?

Obvious play on the title of a previous thread that urged America to burn in hell because they re-elected Bush. Relatively , these lads who killed Hassan should burn in hell - assuming you believe in one, or more reassuringly believe that this world is hell and thus you can be assured A) it cant get any worse when you die, and Hassans killers are in hell.

(I'm not excusing what happened to Margaret Hassan, that was a disgrace)

You just did I thought? Wasnt it your point that we would all murder charity workers in cold blood if we were Iraqis?

It's a very sick but effective media coup. The public is slowly becoming desensitised to murders in Iraq. Whereas in the beginning the executions were shocking to everyone, each individual murder now throws up more and more debate about how the victim might have deserved it or expected it or brought it upon him/herself. It's nigh on impossible to find a reason for Hassan's murder to console ourselves with.

I remember reading something about terrorism that struck me as being interesting - its most effective when there are no rules and no definable targets. I.E. you cant say so long as Im a charity worker Ill be okay, or as long as Im Irish Ill be okay cos everyone loves the Irish, or as long as I show that I opposed the invasion of Iraq Ill be okay. As these acts show the terrorists involved dont care - at all. There is no one they wont target or kill. Everyone is a target. Nobody is safe. They are making their agenda the agenda of everyone.

Al-Zarquawi is not linked to Al Queda anyway - as he has no clear defined political or religious agenda Bin Laden keeps his distance because he is a nutter

Actually Al-Zar is supposed to have requested backing from Al Queda twice. Once, before Iraq when he was humble and beseeching how great Bin Laden was. The second request was framed in a more equal manner as Al Zar has risen swiftly in stature in Iraq after repeated demonstrations of his lack of humanity.

Its rumored that he doesnt even exist or has been killed - everytime he is mentioned as having an arm missing or a leg gone and then is seen beheading some poor unfortunate

Elvis is rumoured to be alive as well.

Am I alone in seeing the link between this womans murder and the US soldier that was caught on tape doing the same to an injured man earlier this week

One victim was an enemy combatant, the other was a middle aged female charity worker.

One was in a warzone, where the enemy have booby trapped wounded. The other was in a room with a bound woman prisoner.

One perpetrator is being investigated for his actions by his commanders, the other is being hailed as a hero by his compatriots for the execution of Hassan.

Honestly, is it me? Are my morals totally askew that I cant see the moral equivalence? Is it my fault I cant see the shooting of a potentially boob trapped enemy in a warzone as being the same as shooting a bound female charity worker?

Or is the world just so totally doomed that no one else fails to see the moral equivalence?

I don't think we can read much political significance into her kidnappers motivations.

Did they ever identify what group or type of group had her? I dont remember hearing about a ransom demand being issued, but there was some spiel about releasing the women prisoners as a condition of her release ( which means maybe nothing, it may have been a ploy to appease the fanaticals if the group holding Hassan were simply finanancially orientated).

davelerave

they both died in the same war zone in fallujah and they were both murdered in cold blood.the US is using overwhelming force and the guerillas are using terrorist methods.

Bananayoghurt

Make Iraq a hellish, ungovernable nightmare, that is one of the primary goals of the insurgants, the worse it gets under US control the more both US and international opinion will see the intervention as a failure and call for a withdrawal, normality or anything close to it is the worst outcome for the insurgants, but that is the aid agencies primary goal, to make things better, to make life as normal as possible. Unfortunately this makes some of the only truely genuine people out there the prime targets of one of the waring factions, and they will target them to discourage more from entering the country and to try to force those already there to leave in order to obtain their goals.

She deserved better, but so do all who have been killed needlessly in Iraq, we are living in a tv nation, and tv only cares about those it thinks we care about, white people, hence weeks of tv about one person while hundreds and hundreds die, and judging by the lets kill them all reaction's to the death of one versus the silent indifference to the death's of tens of thousands maybe they are right. She was one of us, the other dead don't matter, she was one one of us

bonkey

Sand wrote:

I remember reading something about terrorism that struck me as being interesting - its most effective when there are no rules and no definable targets. I.E. you cant say so long as Im a charity worker Ill be okay, or as long as Im Irish Ill be okay cos everyone loves the Irish, or as long as I show that I opposed the invasion of Iraq Ill be okay. As these acts show the terrorists involved dont care - at all. There is no one they wont target or kill. Everyone is a target. Nobody is safe. They are making their agenda the agenda of everyone.

Yup. Absolutely true. And at least two of the sides involved in Iraq are trying to turn this to their advantage.

On one hand, there are the terrorists. Yes - shock horror - I agree that the people who did this are terrorists. No question. As an act, it had no military value, no strategic value, and was - as you say - purely and solely driving home the point that no-one is safe. That is terrorism.

On the other hand, there are those amongst the Americans (and their supporters) who would have us believe that all of the resistance in Iraq is somehow connected, working for the same goal, etc. etc. etc. and that because a handful of people did this, every single "resister" must be either a terrorist, a supporter of terrorism, or a collaborator with terrorists.

What was most interesting to me were some of the reactions that CNN showed from Iraqi civilians (although no doubt, because it was the media, some will decry whatever doesn't suit them as being slanted). To a person, they all condemned it....but how they condemned it was interesting. Some, like those here, just condemned it outright, recognising that regardless of what one thinks of the current struggle, this woman was a friend of Iraq. But one guy in particular said something like "even though she was the enemy, it is not the Muslim way to treat women in this way, nor to kill them".

banayoghurt wrote:

and tv only cares about those it thinks we care about, white people

Actually, one of the reasons that TV cares about Margaret Hassan is because she was a well-known figure to the media, as she was a champion for the Iraqi people over the last decade. She has spoken to the UN (and I believe the UNSC), repeatedly appeared on television, etc. akways doing work on behalf of the Iraqi people. Last night, CNN dug out a tape from 2002 (I think...maybe 2003) of a rather long interview they had done with her.

Margaret Hassan was a champion of the common Iraqi people. She dedicated her life to improving their lot, managing to do whatever she could without taking political sides.

That is why she gets more attention than many others, not because she was a white woman.

jc

jc

Memnoch

bonkey wrote:

Actually, one of the reasons that TV cares about Margaret Hassan is because she was a well-known figure to the media, as she was a champion for the Iraqi people over the last decade. She has spoken to the UN (and I believe the UNSC), repeatedly appeared on television, etc. akways doing work on behalf of the Iraqi people. Last night, CNN dug out a tape from 2002 (I think...maybe 2003) of a rather long interview they had done with her.

Margaret Hassan was a champion of the common Iraqi people. She dedicated her life to improving their lot, managing to do whatever she could without taking political sides.

That is why she gets more attention than many others, not because she was a white woman.

jc

jc

you say it yourself its ONE of the reasons. But I don't think its the only reason OR the MAIN reason. Every single time a westerner is kidnapped its the same thing. Why did Ken Bigley get so much attention?

I think saying that her being a white woman doesn't factor in is not logical.

DublinWriter

Captain Trips wrote:

Exactly, a lady is murdered by nationalist Iraqis so AL QUEDA MUST SUFFER!!!

Which is exactly the response her murderers were trying to generate worldwide.

Except is wasn't Al Queda.

It wasn't even Mohamad al-Zaquari's group (Ken Bigley's killers).

Even on Mohamad al-Zaquari's own website, he called for her release. This is a *very significant* fact.

Robert Fisk made the above comments on the PK radio show yesterday and alluded to the fact that her murder was a 'black-op' carried out by agents of the current US-installed Iraqi government in order to generate worldwide hatred for Al Queda.

It seems to have worked, anyways.

Memnoch

yup, unfortunately such things will always be dismissed as conspiracy theories.

but to me it makes a lot more sense than all the other explanations offered thus far.

too all the people wondering what did the killers accomplish by doing this?

in 1 stroke they...

-removed a champion for the iraqi cause
-polarised the perception of iraqi's even more in the west
-ensured media attention is drawn away from the countless other atrocities taking place in iraq on a daily basis.

actually the killing makes a whole lot of sense in terms of what was achieved, but not from the point of view of iraqi freedom fighters or even iraqi terrorists..

but certainly from the public propaganda point of view of the coalition of the killing.

bonkey

Memnoch wrote:

Every single time a westerner is kidnapped its the same thing.

Which is it....Westerner, or White?

I think saying that her being a white woman doesn't factor in is not logical.

Why? Are there non-whites being kidnapped and killed and getting less coverage?

If not, then why is it not logical to assume the kidnapping and/or subsequent execution is the reason it gets more attention, as opposed to it being logical to assume its because of the race, gender, or anything else for that matter?

Going slightly further...there was quite a lot of coverage when Japenese were kidnapped. They're neither white nor western....so maybe its "non-Iraqi" vs "Iraqi" where the distinction is?

But we don't get huge coverage of each and every soldier, contractor, etc. who gets killed....so that can't be it either.

jc

Memnoch

bonkey wrote:

Which is it....Westerner, or White?


Why? Are there non-whites being kidnapped and killed and getting less coverage?

If not, then why is it not logical to assume the kidnapping and/or subsequent execution is the reason it gets more attention, as opposed to it being logical to assume its because of the race, gender, or anything else for that matter?

Going slightly further...there was quite a lot of coverage when Japenese were kidnapped. They're neither white nor western....so maybe its "non-Iraqi" vs "Iraqi" where the distinction is?

But we don't get huge coverage of each and every soldier, contractor, etc. who gets killed....so that can't be it either.

jc

okay so japan isn't "techinically" western, but it is really a part of the same spectrum. She was both a westerner and white, and in my opnion this was a large factor in the coverage.

We don't get huge coverage of each and every soldier, contractor, but we do get huge coverage of each and every "civillian" that is kidnapped and killed "brutally" in iraq.

I agree with you that the fact that they are kidnapped and subsequently killed plays a part, but the fact is that countless people are being kidnapped daily in iraq since this invasion began many of which are killed, most of them
recieve little or no coverage. When was the last time you heard about an ordinary iraqi that has been kidnapped on sky news?

Again i'm not saying it was the ONLY reason, but her origon/background CERTAINLY is an important component of why so much attention has been placed on the topic... just as was in the case of Ken Bigley.

Again, why did ken bigley get so much coverage?

Christian_H

Rock Climber wrote:

Breaking news, the video of the murder of Irish Aid worker is now available.

What exactly did this empty deed achieve.
I know it only further proved to me that Al Queda are mindless scúm who should burn in hell.
Story here

Its obvious that the tabloid and large headlines contian enough information for people to make up there mind in such a simple manner.

Lets look at the facts.

The US invaded a soverign state 18 motnhs ago. Illegally.
Previous to that the Americans invaded Afghanistan. Illegally.

So now the US is involved in 2 seperate campaigns on the Planet. To me this looks like a world war, WWIII if you will.

When such a massive state is unilaterally aggressive it in turn create reciprocating agression.

Now if you follwed the coverage you will note, that the usual extermist or rebellion groups have claimed not to have abducted Margar Hassan. There is much evidence to suggest it was a criminal gang. Who knows maybe this has political deeds behind it.

Either way the truth has been mangled and we will not know for a long time what really happend.

Lets remember the US have killed thousands of innocent civilian, it could be anything from 10,000 to over 100,000. One death is too many.

I remember sadly now, whenMichael D Higgins proclaimed that 10,000 or more innocent civilains would be killed maybe even hundreds of thousands. He was publicly laughed at in the Dail, deried for exaggerating.

I think the reality has proved him and the 100,000 who marched against our involvement in such war crimes.

To expect national people to behave in War civily when they have been savagely invaded by one of the most repressives regimes globally is in all honest naieve.

Thanks. Lets hope this is the last great conflict the world has ever to endure.

I believe that if the Iraq rebel against the US only they now have the chance to finally correct the US dominance of world affairs.

Here is a quote from Eisenhower in his Farwell address to the AMerican people at the end of his term as the post WWI Us president.

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

I think you'll agree, what was warned of here, has happened.

Moriarty

Memnoch wrote:

Again, why did ken bigley get so much coverage?

It was obviously nothing to do with him being local. Or British. Or (psuedo-)Irish.

Rock Climber

Christian_H wrote:

Lets look at the facts.

The US invaded a soverign state 18 motnhs ago. Illegally.

This has been discussed before and no one could point to me where a court had declared coalition actions illegal.
That illegality was never declared by the body responsible for policing whether it was illegal or not ie the UNSC.
Untill it does, theres two opinions, one that it was illegal and the other that it wasn't.
Both are just opinions.

Previous to that the Americans invaded Afghanistan. Illegally.

Where was that declared illegal??

ionapaul

DublinWriter wrote:

Robert Fisk made the above comments on the PK radio show yesterday and alluded to the fact that her murder was a 'black-op' carried out by agents of the current US-installed Iraqi government in order to generate worldwide hatred for Al Queda.

It seems to have worked, anyways.

And people wonder why and how Anto's Tin-Foil Emporium ('Hats Designed To Your Specification!') does such brisk trade in Ireland...

The outpouring of anger and grief from ordinary Iraqis is fairly impressive, considering they must be by-and-large desensitised to the brutality of AZ and the terrorists / insurgents by now. Hassan's murder and the action in Fallujah remind me of a quote by U.S. Grant 'it is well that war is so terrible, else we should grow too fond of it'.

Gurgle

The US invaded Afghanistan but we never heard of people being kidnapped & murdered.

Then they moved on to Iraq, for no known reason. We got the propaganda on WMD, 'war on terror' and 'liberation' to justify it but this has all been demonstrated to be bullshìt.

Cheap oil can't even be the reason as it hasn't happened and I don't see how its going to. Besides, if cheaper oil was really the target, it could have been arranged without bankrupting the USA and murdering 100,000 people.

The question being bandied about at the time was now where ?.

Suddenly Iraq is full of foreign terrorists committing these kidnaps, murders, suicide bombings etc.

Who benefits ?
Not Iraq, thats for certain. The constant attacks are met with reprisals from the US, both sides are killing Iraqis left right and centre.

The insurgents are not running an efficient guerilla war. If they wanted the invaders out of Iraq they would be concentrating on US soldiers, mounting up the KIA figures until the US gave up & went home ala Vietnam & Korea.

Neither are they gaining international support for Iraq, everybody is starting to hate Iraqis in general because 'they' keep murdering foreign civilians.

sovtek

ionapaul wrote:

And people wonder why and how Anto's Tin-Foil Emporium ('Hats Designed To Your Specification!') does such brisk trade in Ireland...

Because Robert's tin hat readers might remember how the CIA would never do such a thing.
They might also remember Robert's reporting of the accusations coming from Sadr's paper that the CIA were behind suicide bombings in Iraq. Then the CPA did the smart thing and shut down the paper and tried to arrest Sadr as well as attacking Najaf...you know instead of using the US run Al Hurra to show evidence that would descredit such baseless assertions.

chill

Christian_H wrote:

Lets look at the facts.

Yeah let's

The US invaded a soverign state 18 motnhs ago. Illegally.

Wrong.

Previous to that the Americans invaded Afghanistan. Illegally.

Wrong again.

So now the US is involved in 2 seperate campaigns on the Planet. To me this looks like a world war, WWIII if you will.

Wow.....2 campaigns = World War.... what deduction....

Now if you follwed the coverage you will note, that the usual extermist or rebellion groups have claimed not to have abducted Margar Hassan. There is much evidence to suggest it was a criminal gang. Who knows maybe this has political deeds behind it.

And of course we all know that these people never lie !

Either way the truth has been mangled and we will not know for a long time what really happend.

We know she is DEAD and the terrorists killed her.

Lets remember the US have killed thousands of innocent civilian, it could be anything from 10,000 to over 100,000. One death is too many.

So you claim. And I don't agree 1 life is too many to liberate 20 million people. If it were then almost no country in the world would be free... including our own.

I remember sadly now, when Michael D Higgins proclaimed that 10,000 or more innocent civilains would be killed maybe even hundreds of thousands. He was publicly laughed at in the Dail, deried for exaggerating.

He was and is a monumental idiot who predicted over a million, IIRC and never gave a damn about the plight of the Iraqi people under Saddam.. and was happy to leave him in place slaughtering and torturing his people.

I think the reality has proved him and the 100,000 who marched against our involvement in such war crimes.

The reality has proved that 25 million Iraqis are free from Saddam now despite the efforts of these 100,000 to appease him.

To expect national people to behave in War civily when they have been savagely invaded by one of the most repressives regimes globally is in all honest naieve.

Only in a fictional land occupied by the terminally naive.

Thanks. Lets hope this is the last great conflict the world has ever to endure.

Oh I am sure you are right there.... the last... ever !

I think you'll agree, what was warned of here, has happened.

Clearly your assessment of the world is a million miles from reality. That's the only thing I would agree with.

sovtek

Gurgle wrote:

Cheap oil can't even be the reason as it hasn't happened and I don't see how its going to. Besides, if cheaper oil was really the target, it could have been arranged without bankrupting the USA and murdering 100,000 people.

True but would it has enriched those cronies around the Bush regime?
It's two very different proposals to getting cheap oil and controlling cheap oil.

Suddenly Iraq is full of foreign terrorists committing these kidnaps, murders, suicide bombings etc.

That's an assertion that started at the Pentagon and hasn't really been backed up with evidence on the ground...according to reporters, witnesses and US military commanders.
It's also a bit hard for me to buy that one guy is the cause of all the hundreds of suicide bombings, kidnappings, and the thousands of guerrilla attacks on US soldiers.
He's a very very busy, and supposedly wounded, man.

HelterSkelter

netwhizkid wrote:

...and i personally now belive that islam is a major threat to this world that we live in

What has Islam got to do with this????

Are Catholics a major threat to the world because of the IRA???

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

catholics have always been a major threat to the world

mr_angry

chill wrote:

The reality has proved that 25 million Iraqis are free from Saddam now despite the efforts of these 100,000 to appease him.

Yes... free to be maimed and killed by a combination of insurgent attacks and US Army crossfire. What a wonderful liberation. You can dress-up the situation in Iraq any way you want, but lets not pretend everything is hunky-dory for everyone in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I've always said that the removal of Saddam was a good thing, but until the average Iraqi is actually better off for it, its really hard to justify saying that the Americans have gone the right way about it.