Ireland best in world for quality of life

PH01

Ireland best in world for quality of life, survey finds

See http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2004/1117/3702279986HM1QUALITYLIFE.html

Wow this is just great. Made my day to hear this. Fianna Fail must surely take the credit for this?

A Dub in Glasgo

Not in my experience

DJPJ

'It found that Ireland's success was because, unlike most other wealthy countries, it had retained strong traditional values.'

From what I can see and hear, community spirit and close family bonds are dying a slow death in this country... just give us a few years and nobody will know their next door neighbour. As for 'strong family based society' is that a reference to the fact that many are having to live with their parents well into their twenties and thirties because of the ridiculous house prices!

'While it was afflicted by the modern problems of western life, from family breakdown to drink and drug addiction, it was less so than other societies.'

Re Drink addiction - how can they say we're less addicted than other societies... why I have a good mind to find this man and confront him, if only I could get down from this barstool!
Re drug addiction - Hey just give us a few years, we're still playing catch up!


All in all, I'd say we're as miserable as everywhere else, and but for the drink and drugs we'd realise it

ixoy

Does anyone actually living here believe this? Seriously? We've got the fourth highest level of income do we? How come then I've little disposable income and not a hope in hell of being able to afford a home - how does this fit into the model? I imagine many, like myself, would question that.

Also retaining traditional values is a mark of quality? Hmmm, not sure I'd agree with that. I can't see that our old, consersative, Christian-dogmatic ways being maintained is a mark of "quality of life" (least that's the impression the report gives).

Sounds nonsense but I guess it's best validated/refuted by those who've emigrated in the last while or been elsewhere. Maybe bonkey for example.

seamus

The only great difference I see is that while our recent growth has increased our cost of living, it hasn't widened/exacerbated the rich-poor divide to the same great extent that it has in many other countries - the US being a prime example.

While there are still a lot of people living in squalid conditions, and many people still struggling to afford some basic provisions, it's quite evident that on the whole, more people have more to spend, and more people enjoy a much better quality of life than 20 years ago.

Drive through Darndale in 3 weeks time, and count the number of houses decked out in expensive tacky christmas lighting, and newish, modern cars in the driveway. Then it should be clear what I'm talking about.

More people living in council housing does not mean more people have less money.

Sleepy

Greatest quality of life, eh?

So how come our suicide rates are amongst the highest in the world?

Meh

Sleepy wrote:

Greatest quality of life, eh?

So how come our suicide rates are amongst the highest in the world?

They aren't.
We are ranked 12th out of 17 in the 15-24 age range (for countries with suicide statistics available. Other age ranges are similar.)

Sherifu

This thread should be in the humour forum.

SkepticOne

seamus wrote:

The only great difference I see is that while our recent growth has increased our cost of living, it hasn't widened/exacerbated the rich-poor divide to the same great extent that it has in many other countries - the US being a prime example.

I read a while back that Ireland has one of the most unequal income distributions in the developed world, second only to the US. This might account for the perception among the general population that they aren't particularly well off. They are not taking into account the fact that there are some who are really well off and the effect this has on the average.

Sleepy

Meh wrote:

They aren't.
We are ranked 12th out of 17 in the 15-24 age range (for countries with suicide statistics available. Other age ranges are similar.)

Why do we keep hearing that they are so?

por

Whinge, whinge, moan, moan complain, complain.
Everything is greener on the other side isn’t it.
I think this country has a great quality of life, as stated above the rich\poor divide is not as great as other countries, so most of us have food on the table and a good roof over or heads.
Most have newish cars, big houses, (just go for a drive around the country some day and see the size of new houses), fair enough it may be built on a mountain of personal debt but so what, and nobody is predicting a major crash anytime soon.
There are gaps in infrastructure but then again we do not pay the high taxes our European neighbours pay.
I grew up in the 80s and early 90s and looking back on it, it was downright depressing, I never want to see those days again.
Well done Ireland.

SkepticOne

por wrote:

Most have newish cars, big houses, (just go for a drive around the country some day and see the size of new houses), fair enough it may be built on a mountain of personal debt but so what, and nobody is predicting a major crash anytime soon.

Well there are some begrudgers who are.

bonkey

ixoy wrote:

We've got the fourth highest level of income do we? How come then I've little disposable income and not a hope in hell of being able to afford a home - how does this fit into the model? I imagine many, like myself, would question that.

we have teh fourth-highest level of income, averaged over the population. As pointed out, this does not reflect the wealth-divide (I'd always be interested in seeing figures for a comparison average incomes of the least-well-off 75% of countries, but I don't think anyone has ever done that).

It is also an entirely seperate issue to cost of living, and when either is taken alone its somewhat unrepresentative of anything. How much you earn is meaningless until you look at how much things cost (and vice versa).

Sounds nonsense but I guess it's best validated/refuted by those who've emigrated in the last while or been elsewhere. Maybe bonkey for example.

As with all of these studies, the ultimate question is how you calculate anything as vague as quality of life. Does a superb health-care system (as I enjoy) add to quality of life? Well, perhaps...but if I don't get sick, then all I see is my higher-then-yours costs for this....so is that raising or lowering my quality of life? As a non-sick person, I have less disposable income, but as a sick person I get better care. Which is worth more, considering that I haven't been sick since I came here?

If I do get sick, how do I put a figure on what the health-care is worth, when compared to - say - the cost of buying a house (which is even more expensive over here on average than in Ireland freom what I can see).

Is the existence of nuclear stations here a benefit (lower emissions than Moneypoint, for example), or a disadvantage (risk of failure)? And should that logic be worked the same way as medical insurance (i.e. with insurance, many would say the protection from risk is the benefit of the cost....but with nuclear vs non-nuclear, is the protection from risk the benefit of the pollutive cost of thermal generation?)

Ultimately, such reports are nice fuzzy guidelines that give you an idea of what is comparable at a simple level. Every individual has their own priorities, and as a general rule, those will be different to the weighting that this report was based on.

What I will say is this...

I come back to Ireland about twice a year. I see a lot of the changes that have come around "together", rather than having to see X being slowly built, day after day, and then going overtime and overbudget, and then, and then and then...

Whatever about how much better a job could have been done with some/many/most things, the changes and improvements in many areas are nothing short of staggering when you see the end result without having seen the pain of getting there.

Ireland has improved massively in some areas. In others, its still struggling, but (and its easy for me to say this, living abroad) theres a realistic limit to mow much can be done at once.

jc

Imposter

ixoy wrote:

Does anyone actually living here believe this? Seriously? We've got the fourth highest level of income do we? How come then I've little disposable income and not a hope in hell of being able to afford a home - how does this fit into the model? I imagine many, like myself, would question that.

Owning a home is not as important in a lot of other countries so this probably wasn't a consideration.

Also retaining traditional values is a mark of quality? Hmmm, not sure I'd agree with that. I can't see that our old, consersative, Christian-dogmatic ways being maintained is a mark of "quality of life" (least that's the impression the report gives).

I noticed that too and I agree with what you say.

Sounds nonsense but I guess it's best validated/refuted by those who've emigrated in the last while or been elsewhere. Maybe bonkey for example.

Having lived in Austria now for almost 3 years here's my opinion.

The infrastructure is crap in Ireland - roads, public transport, parks, telecommunications networks are all substandard. Compare that to Austria where there are Autobahns linking all the major cities. A rail network that is second to none. Public transport that runs on time and is clean and efficient. Multiple options for most people on a telephone and/or broadband provider.
Public areas such as parks and cycleways are everywhere and well maintained. Free open air public events and festivals are to be found regularly (pretty much every week).

People in Ireland spend a ridiculous amount of time getting to and from work. How can the quality of life be so high and yet people spend hours commuting to work every day? I spend about 25 minutes travelling the 31km to work. Granted it is out of a city to a rural location but in Ireland a similar journey would likely take at least 45mins. Most people here (probably somewhere around 90% of people) spend less than half an hour getting to/from work.

Then we look at the cost of things. Irish people take home a lot more money than people here in Austria. On a 30k salary here you would take home about 20k. The rest is taken away in Tax and social insurance. In Ireland a 30k salary means you take home what? At a guess i'd say about 24-25k. That 20k in Austria goes a lot further than 25k in Ireland.

Car insurance is significantly more expensive. I pay 85€ permonth for a 1.6l car and i've only had my licence just over 2 years. Rent and house prices are significantly cheaper here. Groceries cost about the same. Drink and cigarettes are cheaper (beer about 3€ in a pub and cigs about 3.50 a pack).

It's also a lot safer here. There are very rarely problems on the streets even though pubs/clubs etc can open more or less 24hr. People have a lot more respect for other people and their property. People are allowed to live and don't have to be looking over their shoulder or worrying about themsleves or their property.

To even suggest that Ireland has a better standard of living is ridiculous.

Meh

Sleepy wrote:

Why do we keep hearing that they are so?

Because people like yourself keep posting it without checking if it's actually true?

bonkey wrote:

How much you earn is meaningless until you look at how much things cost (and vice versa).

The article says the survey took into account the cost of living. The Economist are big proponents of purchasing power parity, they probably used that.

Imposter wrote:

It's also a lot safer here. There are very rarely problems on the streets even though pubs/clubs etc can open more or less 24hr. People have a lot more respect for other people and their property.

Can't find statistics for Austria, but Ireland compares quite well with other countries for assaults per capita and bugrlaries per capita.

seamus

seamus wrote:

Drive through Darndale in 3 weeks time, and count the number of houses decked out in expensive tacky christmas lighting, and newish, modern cars in the driveway. Then it should be clear what I'm talking about.

That is so true.
I'll tell you another thing, I know of a council estate not too far away from where I live where many of the residents are on welfare of some sort , whilst at least one member of their household is out doing nixers for cash.
The street is be decked with sky dishes.Theres large tv's and plays stations in abundance and plenty of good cars.
No mortgage repayments there, they wouldn't know what one was, nor care either.
I've no doubt there's poverty in places, but maybe they should take a leaf out of that areas book. Theres about 500 similar house holds in the locality, though many of them are legitimately working.

pickarooney

Having lived in France for three years and Holland for three, either side of three years in Celtic-tiger Dublin, I cannot think of a single category in which Ireland is preferable to France, and only two (nature and people) where it beats the Netherlands.
One thing I have noticed is that the better the standard of living, the more people complain. The French, Germans and Dutch are chronic moaners, and the Irish have come a long way in that respect. The Norwegians are a notable exception, IMLE.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Imposter

Meh wrote:

Can't find statistics for Austria, but Ireland compares quite well with other countries for assaults per capita and bugrlaries per capita.

Just curious but would that have anyting to do with people not reporting them in Ireland? Assaults especially.

cujimmy

Meh wrote:

They aren't.
We are ranked 12th out of 17 in the 15-24 age range (for countries with suicide statistics available. Other age ranges are similar.)

Those figures are from yhe late 1990's since then the suicide figures in Ireland have been rising last year 454 people took their own life

SkepticOne

I think these reports are crap becuase they rely entirely on the weighted sum of a number of separate criteria. Different countries have different criteria for how individuals percieve quality of life and it is impossible to rank such a subjective thing in the form of a weighted sum. The newspapers love them though.

chill

On the contrary I reckon it is extremely accurate and it's not the first time Ireland has come first.

We have a bloody great little country here despite the perpetual knockers. Low unemployment, lots of jobs, good money, no extreme weather, no natural disasters, unarmed police, no war, no terrorism, a great capital city, moderate politics, comptent government, freedom of speech, progressive and open democracy, great culture, clean air in restaurants and pubs.

por

chill wrote:

On the contrary I reckon it is extremely accurate and it's not the first time Ireland has come first.

We have a bloody great little country here despite the perpetual knockers. Low unemployment, lots of jobs, good money, no extreme weather, no natural disasters, unarmed police, no war, no terrorism, a great capital city, moderate politics, comptent government, freedom of speech, progressive and open democracy, great culture, clean air in restaurants and pubs.

Spot on chill, everyone of those reasons you mentioned are why we are top of the list, the problem is that people do not look at the big picture (the items in that list), people tend to look at their own situtaion as a measure of overall quality of life for the whole country, 'Jesus Christ it took me 1hr to get to work today, and it was pissing rain etc etc etc.....................'

The Insider

It’s an interesting point how do you judge the standard of life in the country you are living. I am currently living abroad in Canada which has often cropped up in these reports stating that it is in and around one of the best countries in the world for quality of life, but how do you judge such a thing??

As regards community Canada is very different then Ireland...the suburbs stretch out for so long just huge estates with shopping malls every couple of miles...for me anyway there is not much sense of community..Nobody really seems to know there neighbours...and there is no such thing as a local where you could go for a pint on your own and know half the people in the place. People are friendly over here...but are much more straight up then the Irish...they find it hard to have a bit of craic...but I guess thats more of a personal thing in you want that or not.

Health care is better (free doctors visits, can claim back dentists/prescriptions/glasses)...however I rarely go to the doctor/dentist etc so these things are not really important to me.

Transportation...well in and around downtown there is a good choice of transport...Trams/Subway/Buses...however if you leave the downtown area then public transport is actually quite bad... so bad in fact that if you live in the suburbs then you have to use a car..You have no choice in the matter or you will not get around. Yes there are more motorways linking Cities extra...but the traffic is really bad because everybody has to use them...for example in morning traffic... a trip downtown which I could do in about 20/25 mins takes about hour and half...its that bad. The traffic is not any better in the suburbs as there is very little public transport so everybody drives. This leads to terrible pollution...I often fine myself with a shortness of breath as there air is so dirty and full of smog.

Workplace - Well I only get 2 weeks holidays every year...which is a real shock to the system....I find I get worked a lot hardier of here, more is expected of you...there is no culture of going for a drink after work on a Fri night...again this is a personal thing...

I could go on and on...guess my point is that Irish people do have it very well...even if they don't like to admit it... I guess a lot of the things I listed are more personal things...like liking the pub culture (I am sorry I do!!) and the fact that people are more sociable and there is a greater sense of community...but overall I think Ireland does have a very high standard of life.

bonkey

bonkey wrote:

Ireland has improved massively in some areas. In others, its still struggling, but (and its easy for me to say this, living abroad) theres a realistic limit to mow much can be done at once.
jc

I agree with that and the other points in your post not quoted.
The celtic tiger grew only in the last ten years but peoples expectations have grown unrealistically with it.
Other countries have had much more spending power, for much longer than us.
The tiger was/is akin to revolution, whereas getting everything right all around it eg the health service, the schools and the roads and rail takes much more time, it's more of an evolution, made possible by the revolution in incomes,credit availability and jobs.
We're playing a game of catch up infrastructure wise.
Two things I notice in the last few years for instance; I live about 45 miles from Dublin, only eight of this now is single lane, the conversion of that to dual carriageway is about to commence.
We got new carriages on the commuter train recently with proper heating and lighting.
The schools and the health service are lagging sorely but theres a lot of factors involved there.I do know that since I left school, my local secondary school has had a huge extension as has the three national schools.
One of them now has a new sports hall and a second school building twice the size of the existing one.
Things are happening...ok slower that one would like but they are happening.

I'll close on this someone said to me once that you have to moan and he recommended that people should keep moaning as otherwise, you get put further down the lis for having what you want done.
That was someone in their seventies, who has seen several cycles and has a good feeling about this one.
Moaning is good, it doesn't necesarilly mean people are relatively unhappy.
They just want more and as humans go thats natural.

ReefBreak

rmulryan wrote:

This thread should be in the humour forum.

Yeah, it was soooo much better in the 80s...

Sherifu

ReefBreak wrote:

Yeah, it was soooo much better in the 80s...

I wouldnt know. I wasn't here in the 80's gramps.

spacetweek

I would overall say that the quality of life in Ireland is generally very high. It's just that when you live in a country, you very much see it clouded by all kinds of baggage - you see the negative, but not the positive. Thank God, I was a kid in the 80's and missed all that B.S. I think I'd have been on the next plane out of the place along with everyone else.

People keep comparing Ireland to the rest of Western Europe. This is not a fair comparison. Most western european countries have been rich or at least had large middle-classes for a century or more. This is not the case in Ireland. We have not yet had a sufficiently long period in Ireland for the wealth to filter-down - in other words, Ireland is a rich country, but it often doesn't look like it.

Several people in here have been going on about stuff like motorways between major cities, public transport etc. People are looking at countries like Britain, America, etc. Erm, how long do you think it took these countries to build extensive urban subway systems, motorway networks, etc.? 10 years? 20 years? Try the guts of half a century. We've only been working on projects like these for a decade, and already noticeable progress has been made.

A major factor for me, though, is the very moderate politics found here. Having recently visited or lived in countries like Australia (usually alright but currently big into the War on Terror), the Continent (often far-right), America (radical conservative), and Britain (ditto), Ireland is very liberal in comparison to practically anywhere I can think of - it's a reaction to the previously suffocating (Church-dominated) politics we used to have. Yet everyone keeps going on about the continuing Catholic agenda - where exactly is this? Young Irish in particular are often liberal to the point of being radical. Plastic bag tax, the euro, no smoking, and now possibly even rights for gay couples - as an English type said to me, "You've turned into a shockingly progressive lot lately".

It's just that we have a tradition of complaining about everything here ("look at the sh1t weather"... "look at the bleedin yuppie.") Yeah, what's with the whole "posho" and "yuppie" nonsense? Gimme a yuppie over a scumbag anyday: "Hee-or, givus a shmoke, will ya?" Now where did I leave my tazer...

Bunch of whingers.

bonkey

I'd better not mention the 70s then...

God I feel old

fjon

Another article in the Economist with some interesting things to say.

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3261071

Also totally agree with what spacetweek says about Ireland only becomming rich in the last ten years. You cannot compare Ireland to countries like Austria in terms of infrastructure and public transport. Most of Western Europe has been building their motorway and public transport networks from after the war (and some before that). We cannot compete with that. Roads take time to build - just because we suddenly have a bit of spare cash doesnt mean we can suddenly build motorways to match Germany's. Give it 10-15 years and I would say we might have something reasonably decent. These things take time...

oceanclub

seamus wrote:

The only great difference I see is that while our recent growth has increased our cost of living, it hasn't widened/exacerbated the rich-poor divide to the same great extent that it has in many other countries - the US being a prime example.

Em, we actually live in the most economically unequal country in the western world apart from the US:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2004/07/17/545884.html

Ireland is one of the most prosperous but unequal societies on Earth, the United Nations suggested this week. The annual UN Human Development Report for the first time placed Ireland among the top 10 developed countries in a list based on each country's average income, educational levels and life expectancy.

But a parallel finding, measuring the level of poverty in the world's 17 most highly developed countries, placed Ireland second from the bottom -- just above its primary economic role model, the United States.

P.