Ireland best in world for quality of life

A Dub in Glasgo

Anyone know the median wage is in the Republic?

I was offered a job in Dublin last year but I worked it out that I would have to lower my standard of living quite a bit to take the job. Interestingly, my % take home pay would be more than over here in the UK (main reason is the marraige allowance).

SkepticOne

oceanclub wrote:

Em, we actually live in the most economically unequal country in the western world apart from the US:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2004/07/17/545884.html

Ireland is one of the most prosperous but unequal societies on Earth, the United Nations suggested this week. The annual UN Human Development Report for the first time placed Ireland among the top 10 developed countries in a list based on each country's average income, educational levels and life expectancy.

Thanks for that link. A point I was making earlier was that people might be surprised at coming so high in terms of income since they themselves might not be on great money compared to someone in, say, Germany. But because it is the average that is used, the median income can be quite low despite a high figure for the country as a whole. Similarly, the average quality of life generally can be extremely high for a small number of people and this can drag the average up for the country. I think this is what is being measured in this study and why, perhaps, people a are bit surprised at the result.

adjodlo

Another point I'd like to make about our infrastructure is that we also don't have huge populations like many european countries.

seamus

oceanclub wrote:

Em, we actually live in the most economically unequal country in the western world apart from the US:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2004/07/17/545884.html

Ireland is one of the most prosperous but unequal societies on Earth, the United Nations suggested this week. The annual UN Human Development Report for the first time placed Ireland among the top 10 developed countries in a list based on each country's average income, educational levels and life expectancy.

But a parallel finding, measuring the level of poverty in the world's 17 most highly developed countries, placed Ireland second from the bottom -- just above its primary economic role model, the United States.

P.

Interesting.

Imposter

fjon wrote:

Also totally agree with what spacetweek says about Ireland only becomming rich in the last ten years. You cannot compare Ireland to countries like Austria in terms of infrastructure and public transport. Most of Western Europe has been building their motorway and public transport networks from after the war (and some before that). We cannot compete with that. Roads take time to build - just because we suddenly have a bit of spare cash doesnt mean we can suddenly build motorways to match Germany's. Give it 10-15 years and I would say we might have something reasonably decent. These things take time...

What you and spacetweek have said is all well and good, I even agree with most of it, but this thread is titled "Ireland best in world for quality of life" so a direct comparison of infrastructure in other countries or anything else that is relevant to the quality of life there is hugely relevant.

Blackjack

spacetweek wrote:

A major factor for me, though, is the very moderate politics found here. Having recently visited or lived in countries like Australia (usually alright but currently big into the War on Terror), the Continent (often far-right), America (radical conservative), and Britain (ditto), Ireland is very liberal in comparison to practically anywhere I can think of - it's a reaction to the previously suffocating (Church-dominated) politics we used to have. Yet everyone keeps going on about the continuing Catholic agenda - where exactly is this? Young Irish in particular are often liberal to the point of being radical. Plastic bag tax, the euro, no smoking, and now possibly even rights for gay couples - as an English type said to me, "You've turned into a shockingly progressive lot lately".

no to mention that we have an exceptionally free press ....

While the article (regarding the Standard of living as opposed to Press Freedom) does take into account that on health and education we are below the European Average, people are generally better off than in most countries. There are a huge number of comparisons that could be made but considering that the average wage (and I do realise that there are many on less than the average) is quite high and that we have the second lowest Personal Taxation levels in Europe, I would see Ireland as having a high standard of Living. Bonkey's earlier post probably sum's it up quite a lot.

As regards people complaining, I suppose the more you've had the more you'll miss. Naturally people have a propensity to view the grass as always being greener elsewhere, but they don't always get to see (as opposed to not looking) at the negative aspects of other societies.
Council Tax as well as a very high National Insurance rate (11% up to earnings of 33,000) in the UK, Property Tax in the US and generally less holidays and health care is something that only the very wealthy can afford, plus generally that there is a huge disparity between rich and poor, are things that people do not generally take into account.

All this said, first in the world does sound a tad far fetched!.

A Dub in Glasgo

People should look at median earnings not average earnings as the average is likely to be skewed by the extremes

Raskolnikov

Imposter wrote:

To even suggest that Ireland has a better standard of living is ridiculous.

Yes but Austria have elected far-right Nazi's into power.

I think Ireland is certainly developing into a fantastic little country. We've taken to the market economy and capitalism with a vigour while still retaining a moderate socialist element. Look at the USA, extreme poverty contrasted with an extreme wealth, not good. Then, take a look at our socialist 'partners' in Europe France and Germany. I've been to both and seen the kind of poverty there that occurs to far less of an extent in Ireland. Not very good either.

People may be deriding Bertie after he claimed he was a socialist over the weekend citing him to be indecsive and out to grab votes. The last time I checked though, a democracy enacted the will of the people. Bertie believes that the people in the local elections wanted a more socialist leaning government, he's merely carrying out the will of the electorate. I think that this flexiblity in our political leadership could be just to thing that'll help keep us economically competitive while ensuring that we don't forget the poorest sections in our country.

All in all, since our country adopts the middle ground in terms of capitalism and socialism, I feel that we can build on our prosperity and begin to further improve the fortunes of all people.

Sleepy

chill wrote:

On the contrary I reckon it is extremely accurate and it's not the first time Ireland has come first.

We have a bloody great little country here despite the perpetual knockers. Low unemployment, lots of jobs, good money, no extreme weather, no natural disasters, unarmed police, no war, no terrorism, a great capital city, moderate politics, comptent government, freedom of speech, progressive and open democracy, great culture, clean air in restaurants and pubs.

ROFL

Imposter

Raskolnikov wrote:

Yes but Austria have elected far-right Nazi's into power.

And Ireland elected the PD's into power (I'm thinking McDowell in particular here).

I think Ireland is certainly developing into a fantastic little country. We've taken to the market economy and capitalism with a vigour while still retaining a moderate socialist element. Look at the USA, extreme poverty contrasted with an extreme wealth, not good. Then, take a look at our socialist 'partners' in Europe France and Germany. I've been to both and seen the kind of poverty there that occurs to far less of an extent in Ireland. Not very good either.

It is developing into a nice place to live but we are talking about quality of life, which is a direct comparision of the here and now and not what it will be like in 10, 20 or 50 years. Such an opinion is always going to be subjective anyeay as people always will use their own criteria in coming to such opinions.

DublinWriter

Raskolnikov wrote:

I think Ireland is certainly developing into a fantastic little country. We've taken to the market economy and capitalism with a vigour while still retaining a moderate socialist element.

Get off the drugs son.

Yes, Ireland is a fantastic little country if you're a 20-something middle-class non-smoking professional.

Come back when you have kids, try to buy a house, try to insure a car, get seriously ill, try and get care for your elderly parents etc etc.

chill

DublinWriter wrote:

Come back when you have kids

Best country in the world to bring up kids. Definitely.

try to buy a house, try to insure a car,

Loads of jobs.. not everyone has to own their own house... though there are lots of houses and no laws stopping people buying them.

get seriously ill,

Free hospital care of the highest quality paid for by the generous taxpayers of Ireland.

try and get care for your elderly parents etc etc.

So you want the taxpayers to pay for this too ? Which they do by the way much of the time. And why don't people care for their own parents for a change !

DublinWriter

chill wrote:

Best country in the world to bring up kids. Definitely.

Loads of jobs.. not everyone has to own their own house... though there are lots of houses and no laws stopping people buying them.

Free hospital care of the highest quality paid for by the generous taxpayers of Ireland.

So you want the taxpayers to pay for this too ? Which they do by the way much of the time. And why don't people care for their own parents for a change !

I'm laughing so hard at your post and I don't think I'm the only one.

It's a shame that in life some people only find things out the hard way.

bonkey

chill wrote:

Free hospital care of the highest quality paid for by the generous taxpayers of Ireland.

Now I know this thread belongs somewhere like Humour...

jc

Sherifu

Free hospital care of the highest quality paid for by the generous taxpayers of Ireland.

Don't suppose you've been in hospital recently?

Lennoxschips

I would tend to believe the UN Human Development report ahead of The Economist, which is only interested in money. Ireland has a massive public services problem. I have lived in Belgium and The Netherlands, and how Ireland can come ahead of either of these countries is a complete mystery to me.

My 86 year old grandfather once fell and gashed his head. He spent 8 hours (untill 4 am) in a hospital waiting room while my uncle held a bandage to his head to keep in the blood before they could do some stitches.

Just as well then that Ireland has good "family values" and that my uncle was there to help out my grandfather, otherwise who knows what would have happend...

You'd think The Economist was some kind of Fianna Fail lobbyist.

SteveFE

Did this same subject on a UK based board yesterday (UK? remember, the country that scraped in at No 29?). Sure Ireland's not all milk and honey, but to a blowin living in a countrified bit in East Clare having moved from the SE of England it looks pretty damn good. I'm not minted by the way, just getting along, and I wouldn't want to be seriously ill like you all say, but while I'm healthy I'm loving it. Without coming over all ITB, the people ARE great - I can sit in a bar here having a sensible discussion with a guy who knows his Irish history, knows exactly what the Brits did to this country for 800 years chapter and verse, yet doesn't bear me any grudge. In the UK you'd be pushed to find that, as English racism goes so deep most people aren't even aware of it.

What else? People here still go out to a bar and talk. You won't find that many places in UK any more - they're all too busy drinking their cross-channel tins of lager and watching Sky Sport. At home.

Whatever else the civil service is, it's not full of jobsworths. Common sense still rules (example - I'll just say my local VRO man will bend the rules slightly to avoid a mountain of paperwork).

No council tax. OK, you want a binman you pay for it, or else you go down the tip and dump your own rubbish. Good. Makes you more environmentally conscious, having your car full of your stinking waste instead of your wheely bin.

Nationalism - you can be proud of your country here without being a flagwaving racist bigot.


Some of my neighbours are Dutch and American - they all recognise what's good about Ireland too (the Yanks moved here just before GWB's little victory, and boy are they glad they made the right move). Don't knock it too hard - there's a spirit here that maybe it's easier for outsiders to recognise, but it's there nevertheless.

chill

rmulryan wrote:

Don't suppose you've been in hospital recently?

Actually yes... and my elderly father and aunt too. They and I got great treatment, no VHI, absolutely brilliant nurses and doctors. And my wife is a nurse in a major Dublin hospital so I know ALL about the faults in the Irish Medical system thank you.
There's always whingers who want to be treated like royalty, who confuse anecdotes with truth only focus on faults and never on the whole picture and who never appreciate anything positive in life.

Cork

rmulryan wrote:

Don't suppose you've been in hospital recently?

Never mind that taxpayers are putting €11 billion into health.

There was never a time that more money was not being spent on public services but services need to be delivered. Many public service organisations are in need of reform big time.

Ireland is doing far better economically than Germany. Irish people no longer are forced to travel abroad for jobs. It was not long ago that Irish people were queuing outside a certain Fast Food chain for jobs.


The Economist has a long standing reputation as a magazine. The EU in general is in an economic slump. Ireland has not been experiencing this.

We had debate on a national radio lately on the closing of a coffee shop in Dublin. Some Germans that I know could not understand the fuss when their country's economy is sluggish.

elivsvonchiaing

I've never believed any ranking of anything published by any publication: E.g. the rich list - It is based upon what people have filed with the revenue commissioners :eek:

Rankings such as "Happiest Nation": (Think it was also the economist) - Bangladesh got number one (think in 2002?). What parameters determined that? How do you measure them? How do you test the quality of your results? Is there an agenda or could you be blinded by your own prejudices?

Likewise with Ireland's ranking - we are probably somewhere in the top 50 if you take for example the rankings from 3,000 people who have lived elsewhere and have been in Ireland for at least a year. Ireland vs Wherever. This would be also an invalid measure; as where they came from would have moved a year on and may be more/less desireable to live in.

Posts suggest people really took this seriously... I'd be all for a move to the humour forum were it not for the several sensible posts (by that I mean not whinging and making a good point)

DadaKopf

Lennoxschips wrote:

I would tend to believe the UN Human Development report ahead of The Economist, which is only interested in money. Ireland has a massive public services problem. I have lived in Belgium and The Netherlands, and how Ireland can come ahead of either of these countries is a complete mystery to me.

I'd trust the UNDP over The Economist any day, too. Ireland performs worse than the USA, but slightly better than the UK and Switzerland. Definitely counts for something.

This article is an excellent assessment of the state of the Celtic Tiger. It concludes that the Irish boom places the state as inferior to the market, which means, basically, that no matter how successful the economy might be, it could very well be impossible to put in place a workable social development programme that actually works. It's really worth a read.

BattleBoar

Lennoxschips wrote:

I would tend to believe the UN Human Development report ahead of The Economist, which is only interested in money. Ireland has a massive public services problem. I have lived in Belgium and The Netherlands, and how Ireland can come ahead of either of these countries is a complete mystery to me.

The Economist is a brilliant publication, and while I would trust their analysis over anything offered up by the UN, I think it all depends on the weightings of the categories in the methodology being applied, and the way those categories are scored. You could get very different results by changing the way you measured.

Nevertheless:

The index of 111 states, produced by the Economist Intelligence Unit, combines data on incomes, health, unemployment, climate, political stability, job security, gender equality as well as what the magazine calls "freedom, family and community life".

Clearly, The Economist are not only interested in money.

Cork

BattleBoar wrote:

The Economist is a brilliant publication,.

We should be proud of economic success but when you hear well paid radio and print jornalists moaning and groaning about doom and gloom on a daily basis - It makes me worder.

I am not well paid myself. I earn far less than the average industrial wage. I don't have a car and I don't own my own house.

But I am working, studying and don't pay much tax.

A lot has to do with perception. Some think the glass is half full while others believe it is half empty.

You really won't get agreement on both sides.

Sherifu

absolutely brilliant nurses and doctors.

I totally agree. They do a fantastic job with the pressure they're under.

There's always whingers who want to be treated like royalty, who confuse anecdotes with truth only focus on faults and never on the whole picture and who never appreciate anything positive in life.

I'd settle for reasonably quick hospital care.
To be seen in a "timely" fashion as the medical profession put it.
I dont think it's fair to leave people on trolleys.
If that makes me a whinger then so be it............

chill

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

I've never believed any ranking of anything published by any publication: E.g. the rich list - It is based upon what people have filed with the revenue commissioners :eek:

Rankings such as "Happiest Nation": (Think it was also the economist) - Bangladesh got number one (think in 2002?). What parameters determined that? How do you measure them? How do you test the quality of your results?

Likewise with Ireland's ranking - we are probably somewhere in the top 50 if you take for example the rankings from 3,000 people who have lived elsewhere and have been in Ireland for at least a year. Ireland vs Wherever. This would be also an invalid measure; as where they came from would have moved a year on and may be more/less desireable to live in.

Posts suggest people really took this seriously... I'd be all for a move to the humour forum were it not for the several sensible posts (by that I mean not whinging and making a good point)

I would rate the Economists report well ahead of any of the arguments posed above which seem to me to be the result of a careless mis-reading of the report in the first instance.

Bangladesh was number one in a survey for 'happiness' of it's people.... which seems a very clear and unambiguous thing to measure. Your biased view of Bangladesh seems far more prejudicial.

Rich Lists are most definitely NOT based on "Revenue Commissioners" figures considering that individuals do not submit figures on their wealth to the Revenue, only Income - and even this information is extremely confidential and not available to 'magazines'.

Posing silly criteria and then debunking your own selection hardly carries much weight when compared with the long and established reputation of such an excellent publication.

DadaKopf

Wait a minute. You think it's easier to measure happiness than wealth?

elivsvonchiaing

chill wrote:

I would rate the Economists report well ahead of any of the arguments posed above which seem to me to be the result of a careless mis-reading of the report in the first instance.

Plead incredulity as opposed to careless misreading here... given for instance Bangladeshis frequently are made homeless/drowned through flooding a lot more than most countries.

chill wrote:

Bangladesh was number one in a survey for 'happiness' of it's people.... which seems a very clear and unambiguous thing to measure. Your biased view of Bangladesh seems far more prejudicial.

See above.

chill wrote:

Rich Lists are most definitely NOT based on "Revenue Commissioners" figures considering that individuals do not submit figures on their wealth to the Revenue, only Income - and even this information is extremely confidential and not available to 'magazines'.

Theoretically, they are, you are supposed to declare what you have earned in interest on savings in a overseas account and pay tax on it. The point I was making was that several on the rich-list that spend more than 180 days in Ireland are richer than they are admitting to be, because the revenue commissioners read this, I suspect.

chill wrote:

Posing silly criteria and then debunking your own selection hardly carries much weight when compared with the long and established reputation of such an excellent publication.

I wasn't slagging the Economist per se. I was simply questioning the validity of such surveys as I'm never happy with the criteria when I see results that seem incredible.

If Ireland came in fourth, I can only assume physical and technological infrastructure were more or less ignored. I understand why people suggested move to the humour forum - for me the jury is still out on this one.

Victor

Cork wrote:

A lot has to do with perception. Some think the glass is half full while others believe it is half empty.

Maybe the glass is twice the size it needs to be?

chill

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

Plead incredulity as opposed to careless misreading here... given for instance Bangladeshis frequently are made homeless/drowned through flooding a lot more than most countries.

Yet you persist in being unable to accept that the people of Bangladesh are quite simply 'happy', and 'contented' in a way that others are not. Your view is completely subjective and hence unreliable.

The point I was making was that several on the rich-list that spend more than 180 days in Ireland are richer than they are admitting to be, because the revenue commissioners read this, I suspect.

Illustrating why any use of Revenue info would be completely unreliable as a guide to Wealth.

I wasn't slagging the Economist per se. I was simply questioning the validity of such surveys as I'm never happy with the criteria when I see results that seem incredible.

Accepted. But an inability to accept the results of a survey based on personal and anecdotal experience is hardly an impressive argument.

If Ireland came in fourth, I can only assume physical and technological infrastructure were more or less ignored. I understand why people suggested move to the humour forum - for me the jury is still out on this one.

Illustrating no less than your inability to grasp that there is more to quality of life than the materialistic and economic criteria on which you base your own personal satisfaction.

elivsvonchiaing

chill wrote:

Yet you persist in being unable to accept that the people of Bangladesh are quite simply 'happy', and 'contented' in a way that others are not. Your view is completely subjective and hence unreliable.

Illustrating why any use of Revenue info would be completely unreliable as a guide to Wealth.

Accepted. But an inability to accept the results of a survey based on personal and anecdotal experience is hardly an impressive argument.

Never said it was gospel. It just seems to me you seem to think what you read in the Economist is Gospel.

I'm merely stating that not everyone will agree with the survey, and not that I have simply formed "the" correct opinion here. I believe that any assumptions made in weightings of various criteria, choice of criteria in a survey such as this are open to question for all time. We would be morons to accept any less than this!

chill wrote:

Illustrating no less than your inability to grasp that there is more to quality of life than the materialistic and economic criteria on which you base your own personal satisfaction.

Just because I focused on infrastucture here, doesn't mean I think economics/materialism has everything to do with quality of life. It doesn't. Likewise I am dismayed that you seem to think that a journalist (or team thereof) (maybe with help of economists/psychologists etc) have identified correctly what does.

There is no sound basis for provable argument in this thread imho! Just think the majority of posters would agree Ireland is not in the top 4 and the Economist as ever is open to healthy criticism here.