Legitimate celebration of white culture?

mycroft

por wrote:

I have no problem with people that are not white, I have a problem however with white people being put down and accused of being racist for expressing pride in being white.
Just as you have done here.

Why are you so proud of your skin pigmentation?

landser

to tell you the truth, i don't care if my great grand father ran around the whole of Africa with a big butterfly net gathering up people and shipping them off to the sugar palantations, no more than modern day germans care about what the Kaiser did in WW1. I'm sorry it happened, but it has jack **** to do with me, and i won't apologise for it. to use history to oppress a minority in any country, because their forefathers committed unspeakable acts in UNJUSTIFIED. if we were to come along and suddenly oust henry mountcharles from his castle because his grandfather was a c*nt, this would be wrong. and before anyone says something about this, you should know that just beacuse i don't care doesn't mean i don't understand.

what i do care about is what is happening now.
am i proud to be white.... no, i just am.
am i proud to a european from a general judeo-christian background? yes.
do/should i feel guilty for the sins of my fathers... absolutely not.
do i find aspects of other cultures abhorrent.... oh yes.
would i celebrate a Europe day.... damn right

BTW, i am also proud to be straight... i'm having a love parade... shout it loud I'm Straight, I'm great!!!!!

THe problem with many opinions such as this is that the PC brigade immediately assume that if anyone in a majority is happy with who they are and express that opinion, they are thereby immediately oppressing a minority. which is, quite frankly, bull****

por

mycroft wrote:

Why are you so proud of your skin pigmentation?

landser wrote:

am i proud to be white.... no, i just am.
am i proud to a european from a general judeo-christian background? yes.
do/should i feel guilty for the sins of my fathers... absolutely not.
do i find aspects of other cultures abhorrent.... oh yes.
would i celebrate a Europe day.... damn right

That about sums it up, thanks landser

pickarooney

mycroft wrote:

Segregation was a white invention?

Somehow I doubt it. People have been segregating since the dawn of time, long before paleface was born.

mycroft

pickarooney wrote:

Somehow I doubt it. People have been segregating since the dawn of time, long before paleface was born.

:rolleyes:

I was refering to the Jim Crow laws in post civil war USA.

por

In the end it looks like the white man is to blame for everything.
We white people should be ashamed of ourselves, cos of all the bad things other white people have done over the centuries.
We should accept that others can take the piss and put down without retort form us, cos if we did retort it would be racist or sexist or homophobic.
We cannot pity other white people being driven off their land in Zimbabwe, cos they had it coming to them.
Christ I wish I was black, and then I'd have something to celebrate

bonkey

por wrote:

I'm WHITE and I'm PROUD

landser wrote:

am i proud to be white.... no, i just am.

por wrote:

That about sums it up, thanks landser

At the start you were proud to be white.

Then, having clarified that it was your skin colour you were proud of (I can dig up those quotes as well if you want me to), you agree that landsner sums it up perfectly when he says that he is not proud of being white, he just is white, and that it is non-colour-related issues that he is proud of.

So may I take it then that this is an admission that you now agree with the critics who had a problem with you expressing pride in your whiteness, now that you're no longer doing that?

Or is this one of those shifting-sands arguments where you've decided to ask a mate
to come back you up, and reading this are only just realising that doing so has made you contradict yourself?

landser wrote:

do/should i feel guilty for the sins of my fathers... absolutely not.

I see. So you take pride in their successes, but decide that their sins don't matter? How about the sins comitted in achieving those successes?

Are you proud of the colonisation of Australia? What about the genocide trhat was part of said colonisation? No guilt regarding that?

Are you proud of the colonisation of America? Do you care that entire cultures were destroyed for the sin of being in the way?

See...I recognise that Europeans have done great things. However, I also recognise that then - as now - terrible things are often an intrinsic part of those achievements. Remembering one without the other to cast it in a less/more favourable light is little more than self-delusion.....but as long as the "self-" remains in that description...hey, knock yourself out.

jc

bonkey

landser wrote:

no more than modern day germans care about what the Kaiser did in WW1.

I think you need to speak to more modern-day Germans.

jc

por

bonkey wrote:

At the start you were proud to be white.

Then, having clarified that it was your skin colour you were proud of (I can dig up those quotes as well if you want me to), you agree that landsner sums it up perfectly when he says that he is not proud of being white, he just is white, and that it is non-colour-related issues that he is proud of.

So may I take it then that this is an admission that you now agree with the critics who had a problem with you expressing pride in your whiteness, now that you're no longer doing that?

Or is this one of those shifting-sands arguments where you've decided to ask a mate
to come back you up, and reading this are only just realising that doing so has made you contradict yourself?

OK if you wish to be pedantic about it I'll put it this way , I am proud to be of European origin, is that good enough for you ???.

mycroft

por wrote:

OK if you wish to be pedantic about it I'll put it this way , I am proud to be of European origin, is that good enough for you ???.

Which parts? The Holocaust? The inquistion? The creation of slavery?

Now I'm sure you can dazzle me with some illuminace facts of heritage, but anyone with any grasp of history will tell you the industrial revolution for example was built on the back of protectionist trade policys, colonial agression, the exploitation of indigneous people around the world not least our own populations. Being proud of your heritage is one thing refusing to acknowledge the true price other people paid for your "hertiage" is another.

The Corinthian

mycroft wrote:

How about the fact the any number of African countries are still paying off the massive loans from the world bank, that have been run up, very often by the corrupt regiemes installed by the west during the 70s. These massive debts are crippling economies and money which should be going towards building infrastructure and helping their own people are going instead to service the interest of an unpaybackable debt which the west run world bank insisted they do.

We're still screwing over africa we've just gotten more subtle.

And Africa is still screwing itself without any help from us too.

We do not install or prop up every regime; many of them have nothing to do with us. Zimbabwe is one case in point of this.

Even if we did, it does not mean that they should be considered unaccountable for their actions - perhaps credit card companies should wipe the debts of irresponsible customers on the basis that they gave them credit?

bonkey wrote:

Are we to blame for everything? **** no. Does that mean we are blameless? Even less so. But.....

I never said we’re blameless, only that the former colonial possessions cannot be considered blameless for their plight either. And frankly at this stage, in many cases, they deserve the lion’s share of the responsibility.

If that what someone wants to celebrate, then fine. However, as TC himself clarified, it is theoretically common European culture, not white culture.

There’s more to it than simply art and architecture, however. As I pointed out, by the seventeenth or eighteenth century, an Irishman could move to another European city, such as Rome, Berlin or St. Petersburg and beyond language and regional variations, could make the transition with reasonable ease. This is because European culture and values have been largely homogenous for centuries (watch Kubrik’s film Barry Lyndon).

The same Irishman would have (had) far greater difficulty fitting in in Cairo, Lagos or Kyoto, regardless of the colour of his skin.

I think you need to speak to more modern-day Germans.

In fairness, I suspect you do too.

mycroft

The Corinthian wrote:

And Africa is still screwing itself without any help from us too.

No but the fact that vast sums of money is being sucked out of the continent which could be used to restore stability is instead servicing bad debts.

We do not install or prop up every regime; many of them have nothing to do with us. Zimbabwe is one case in point of this.

Yes but look at Ethopia, Uganda, all had despots supported by Colonial powers or the US, these led to wars which ending up destablising whole regions. Hell the situation in Rwanda can be traced back to belgian screw ups.

Even if we did, it does not mean that they should be considered unaccountable for their actions - perhaps credit card companies should wipe the debts of irresponsible customers on the basis that they gave them credit?

Oh please thats woeful logic, I move into a new apartment, theres outstanding massive phone bills because the previous tennant liked sex lines, should I be forced to pay it?

It's like you crashing my car while drunk and then handing you handing me your hospitial bill. The First world need to admit that they played a significant part in africa's destablisation and it's current policy of not allowing africa to default on loans, is killing millions every year.

landser

bonkey wrote:

I see. So you take pride in their successes, but decide that their sins don't matter? How about the sins comitted in achieving those successes?

I never said i was proud of european past successes. likewise i am not guilty for what they did either. If you read what i said fully you'll note that i said i am proud to be a european today. i tell what though, over the weekend i'll spank myself soundly so as to cleanse me of the excesses of other generations. or perhaps i could make some reparations... where do i send the money????... would that help??

landser

bonkey wrote:

I think you need to speak to more modern-day Germans.

jc

i do, and i don't know of one who gives a damn about the kaiser.

Redleslie2

I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but I notice that Landser happens to be the name of a controversial band responsible for hits like "Aryan Child", "African Song", "German Wrath" and the classic, "In The Ass".

landser

Redleslie2 wrote:

I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but I notice that Landser happens to be the name of a controversial band responsible for hits like "Aryan Child", "African Song", "German Wrath" and the classic, "In The Ass".

never heard of them before... i actually prefer indie music myself... but you go ahead and knock yourself out. I'm glad you think i'm a racist as it proves the point that i made earlier viz. when a party to majority is in any way proud of his culture, he is immediately oppressing others and is a supremist/bigot/racist.

fair play to you!!!!

BTW... redleslie... could you be a communist??? ah yes, good old communism/soicalism. No attrocities or colonisation there then.absurdistan

Redleslie2

landser wrote:

never heard of them before... i actually prefer indie music myself... but you go ahead and knock yourself out. I'm glad you think i'm a racist as it proves the point that i made earlier viz. when a party to majority is in any way proud of his culture, he is immediately oppressing others and is a supremist/bigot/racist.

Didn't I say it was a coincidence? I'm sure you're totally unaware of what your nick means. Landser (the band) are artists who are clearly very proud of their white heritage and celebrate it in song. No need to accuse them of being racists. :mad:

BTW... redleslie... could you be a communist???

Yeah like all Liverpool fans.

pickarooney

mycroft wrote:

Yes but look at Ethopia, Uganda, all had despots supported by Colonial powers or the US, these led to wars which ending up destablising whole regions. Hell the situation in Rwanda can be traced back to belgian screw ups.

I find this latently condescending. Of all the factors that brought about the horrors of Rwanda, that you could consider the Belgians part in it to be the most significant is absurd.

pickarooney

Redleslie2 wrote:

Didn't I say it was a coincidence? I'm sure you're totally unaware of what your nick means. Landser (the band) are artists who are clearly very proud of their white heritage and celebrate it in song. No need to accuse them of being racists. :mad:


Yeah like all Liverpool fans.

If it was a coincidence, why did you mention it, if not as a smear on the poster?
Why not mention that by sheer coincidence Landser is a town in France and a reasonably common last name? You've added nothing to the thread so far but snide insinuations and non-sequiturs about Spanish football and Ashley Cole.

mycroft

pickarooney wrote:

I find this latently condescending. Of all the factors that brought about the horrors of Rwanda, that you could consider the Belgians part in it to be the most significant is absurd.

And that is where you'd be dead wrong.

If you read the seminal book "We Wish to Inform You That Tomorrow We Will be Killed With Our Families: Stories from Rwanda" by Philip Gourevitch(the best book on the massacre), the roots of the massacre lay with the original belgian colonists. The Colonial powers (I kid you not) felt that the Tutsi minority were descents from the Atlantians and promoted them above the Hutsi majority, throughout the period of their rule, granting them greater rights and power. The seeds of resentment were planted there.

I never said it was the most significant, however before the belgians arrived with their zany theorys both tribes lived in relevant peace. The sooner europe realises that the current situation in africa is due in part to centuries of european and US abuse the better

Redleslie2

pickarooney wrote:

If it was a coincidence, why did you mention it, if not as a smear on the poster?

Why is it a smear? Are you saying there's something wrong with artists like Landser celebrating white culture?

The Corinthian

mycroft wrote:

No but the fact that vast sums of money is being sucked out of the continent which could be used to restore stability is instead servicing bad debts.

Of course they could be used to restore stability, but what are the chances of that?

Yes but look at Ethopia, Uganda, all had despots supported by Colonial powers or the US, these led to wars which ending up destablising whole regions.

So who was propping up Idi Amin then? Are you suggesting that Europe or the US are solely responsible for those wars? That any corruption is entirely as a result of our undue influence?

Hell the situation in Rwanda can be traced back to belgian screw ups.

Hell trace further and it’s all down to tribalism. Or are we only tracing as far as is convenient?

Oh please thats woeful logic, I move into a new apartment, theres outstanding massive phone bills because the previous tennant liked sex lines, should I be forced to pay it?

A poor analogy. We’re not talking about debts incurred by individuals but by the nations that those individuals represented. If you inherit an estate which is in debt, then that debt still has to be paid off – by the estate. The same with the purchase of a company (remember how Barings Bank was sold in the end for £1?).

landser wrote:

BTW... redleslie... could you be a communist??? ah yes, good old communism/soicalism. No attrocities or colonisation there then.absurdistan

Ohhhh... that’s different. Never forget: Four legs good, two legs bad.

pickarooney

Redleslie2 wrote:

Why is it a smear? Are you saying there's something wrong with artists like Landser celebrating white culture?

Because you made pointed references to nazi-related song-titles. You know full well that this thread is not about the third reich. I made that clear in the first post, but because you're loath to do any discussion you just throw in the nazi-bait because everyone knows that if you equate a poster having a different viewpoint with a nazi, he automatically loses all credibility and any argument. It's cheap, it's old and it's not clever.

mycroft wrote:

I never said it was the most significant, however before the belgians arrived with their zany theorys both tribes lived in relevant peace. The sooner europe realises that the current situation in africa is due in part to centuries of european and US abuse the better

I don't think there's any doubt that Euro-American interference is partly responsible for Africa's situation. What I find condescending is the apparent suggestion that, no matter how zany the Belgians' theories may have been, the poor eejit Africans gobbled it up and took it as gospel because they wouldn't know any better.

bonkey

por wrote:

OK if you wish to be pedantic about it I'll put it this way , I am proud to be of European origin, is that good enough for you ???.

Certainly....

you've now backed away from being proud of being white, and instead classed it as being proud of being European. Europe, need I point out, is not exclusively white.

So I can presumably take it that you are no longer offering your pride as a refutation to there being a legitimate reason to celebrate white culture, given that - me being pedantic and all - thats not what you celebrate under your new clarification.

The Corinthian wrote:

There’s more to it than simply art and architecture, however. As I pointed out, by the seventeenth or eighteenth century, an Irishman could move to another European city, such as Rome, Berlin or St. Petersburg and beyond language and regional variations, could make the transition with reasonable ease. This is because European culture and values have been largely homogenous for centuries (watch Kubrik’s film Barry Lyndon).

Fair enough...but as I've just pointed out, that "homogeneity" was broadly pan-European, and not limited to "white Northern Europe". Indeed, I would go so far as to say that Northern Europe (the Scandinavian nations) were amongst the least homogenised with the rest of Europe.

Also...as mycroft pointed out : Being proud of your heritage is one thing refusing to acknowledge the true price other people paid for your "hertiage" is another.

I am proud of what Europeans and mankind in general have achieved. However, I am appalled at the cost that some of it was obtained at, and believe that it is crucial that we remember those ill deeds so that we do not repeat them, and act to prevent their continuation - by ourselves and others - where they remain.

The behaviour of the Spanish supporters at the two recent England matches is a prime example of a holdover of the ignorance of a previous age. While it is one thing to say that we can do nothing about the fact that our forebears treated the African peolple so badly because of their skin-colour, it is another to say that the same problem - desended from the same mindset - does not, in part, remain and that is something we should not (dare I say cannot) argue that we can do nothing about.

jc

Redleslie2

pickarooney wrote:

Because you made pointed references to nazi-related song-titles.

White pride related song titles.

You know full well that this thread is not about the third reich.

The nazis were very much into the idea of white pride and the celebration of northern european culture were they not?

mycroft

The Corinthian wrote:

Of course they could be used to restore stability, but what are the chances of that?

So do nothing. Brilliant. Millions keep dying and the the banks get richer, everyone wins

So who was propping up Idi Amin then? Are you suggesting that Europe or the US are solely responsible for those wars? That any corruption is entirely as a result of our undue influence?

Amin was recieving extensive funding from the US. They felt he was essential in the war on communism. Corinthian I'm not arguing that the US and Europe is solely responsible, you're trying to twist my argument into that. I'm arguing that the US and Europe need to look at the part they played in creating this mess.

Hell trace further and it’s all down to tribalism. Or are we only tracing as far as is convenient?

The debate is european involvement in africa, something you seem to think was entirely beign or alternatively not part of the problem, and your only argument is "the suitation was always messed up, our involvement doesn't matter."

A poor analogy. We’re not talking about debts incurred by individuals but by the nations that those individuals represented. If you inherit an estate which is in debt, then that debt still has to be paid off – by the estate. The same with the purchase of a company (remember how Barings Bank was sold in the end for £1?).

Okay so let me get this straight. I'm a Ugandian, in a coup helped by the US a corrupt dicator is fostering on me. He squanders the countries resources, and then flees, leaving the country poverty stricken. The country that had supported him then hands the bill to the people who who have been oppressed. And this to you is fair?

landser

Redleslie2 wrote:

White pride related song titles.

The nazis were very much into the idea of white pride and the celebration of northern european culture were they not?

did i not just read a joke submitted by you on another thread about chat-up lines to use on "on foreign types only"... and then go on to talk about having "irish blood in them"

Jesus, if i didn't know you better, i might think you're a racist with that sort of talk.

mycroft

pickarooney wrote:

I don't think there's any doubt that Euro-American interference is partly responsible for Africa's situation. What I find condescending is the apparent suggestion that, no matter how zany the Belgians' theories may have been, the poor eejit Africans gobbled it up and took it as gospel because they wouldn't know any better.

Head thumbs againist keyboard.

Okay once again for the hard of thinking.

The belgians beliefs led to them giving power and responsibilty to the Tutsi minority, breeding the racial tension.

It's the the believe its the system of government that the belgians developed around this belief that the Tutsi were genetical superior that bred the resentment. Does that make it clearer?

bonkey

Landser and redleslie2...

enough.

jc

the_syco

It seems that every ex-colonial country is screwed up. But only list the screwed up ones, or course. Don't mention Ireland. Or America. Or a few others.

Its easy to blame the countries for their past mistakes. But do we blame England for the screw ups this country makes (Bertie Bowl, etc)? No. Some problems may be created by ex-colonial's, but not all the problems are their fault.