Waterford North Quays

914

redlead wrote: »

Its entirely different in Waterford because the docks are in the heart of the city. In Dublin to get from the top of the quays to the centre of town is a surprisingly long walk (I worked there ). This was a big part of the reason the tall ships festivals were so much better in Waterford than elsewhere. We should not be wasting such a prime city centre location on cheap apartments. Have you seen the cost of housing in Waterford city at the moment? you could buy a lot of it with loose change. Apts there will not generate value when there is no attractive reason for people to live there.

We need to stop comparing Waterfod to Cork and Dublin because it is significantly smaller and is competing with other large towns in the region. For this to change, we need to be developing with servicing the region in mind I.e retail too big for Waterford alone but significantly better than anything else in the region. If we build a crappy retail area, then the residential zone will just turn into another marina and the office spaces will be half empty along with the retail in a few years (see city square). Do something properly or wait until someone else has the vision and ability to do it (unlike Falcon) properly.

You are right but my plan for Michael St would be like the 2007 plan, a shopping centre where people want to come to Waterford to shop, not another city square, a statement, have the north Quays as business, finance and tech, cross the bridge into the shopping quarter, continue down to the applemarket to the social quarter, one senseless flow.

imacman

Harry Palmr wrote: »

How about some publicly funded anchor tenants, a few thousand of them (between students and staff)?

https://finneganwaterford.wordpress.com/2021/05/20/northquays-uni/

I have to say his piece is very well written and researched.Putting the TU business school on the NQ seems to me to be a great idea .

914

imacman wrote: »

I have to say his piece is very well written and researched.Putting the TU business school on the NQ seems to me to be a great idea .

Interesting that not one political person has engaged with it yet.

hardybuck

imacman wrote: »

I have to say his piece is very well written and researched.Putting the TU business school on the NQ seems to me to be a great idea .

Agree on the quality of the writing and research.

However, in my opinion it's a mistake to have different campuses buildings spread across the city. UCC have been forced to do so due to a lack of space on the College Road campus, and it means that the students in the satellite locations are cut off from the rest of the University, which is kinda the opposite of the atmosphere you're trying to foster.

To avoid this spilling into off topic conversation, I think we could all agree that the site would benefit from a significant public sector anchor tenant.

Deiseen

914 wrote: »

You are right but my plan for Michael St would be like the 2007 plan, a shopping centre where people want to come to Waterford to shop, not another city square, a statement, have the north Quays as business, finance and tech, cross the bridge into the shopping quarter, continue down to the applemarket to the social quarter, one senseless flow.

Except a shopping centre in Michael Street would not achieve this. No one will come to Waterford to shop in Michael street.

hardybuck

Deiseen wrote: »

Except a shopping centre in Michael Street would not achieve this. No one will come to Waterford to shop in Michael street.

People go to Galway to drink pints on Shop Street. There's feck all else to do in Galway but people love the atmosphere.

914

Deiseen wrote: »

Except a shopping centre in Michael Street would not achieve this. No one will come to Waterford to shop in Michael street.

Why would that be? The plans from 2007 were pretty impressive, with roof top views of the city, surely a substantial shopping centre would attract shoppers?

Rrrrrr2

914 wrote: »

Why would that be? The plans from 2007 were pretty impressive, with roof top views of the city, surely a substantial shopping centre would attract shoppers?

Depends what’s in it- I used to go to Waterford for Debenhams mainly- now that’s gone (granted the whole company folded).
Any idea on that note who might move in there? Would TK maxx want to move?

Deiseen

hardybuck wrote: »

People go to Galway to drink pints on Shop Street. There's feck all else to do in Galway but people love the atmosphere.

An atmosphere that Waterford has absolutely zero of.

The city needs an entire make over and reincarnation, which the original North Quays plan created.

This will remain empty like City Square, Railway Square and Ferrybank. Guarantee it.

Harry Palmr

hardybuck wrote: »

Agree on the quality of the writing and research.

However, in my opinion it's a mistake to have different campuses buildings spread across the city. UCC have been forced to do so due to a lack of space on the College Road campus, and it means that the students in the satellite locations are cut off from the rest of the University, which is kinda the opposite of the atmosphere you're trying to foster.

To avoid this spilling into off topic conversation, I think we could all agree that the site would benefit from a significant public sector anchor tenant.

When I posted yesterday evening I was going to suggest the WIT placed one "faculty" there, then I thought nah, they've been closing various off site properties and with the Glass site earmarked they'll keep everything on Cork road.

But when you consider the benefits it's a compelling case to build on NQ. Not sure what the number of millions would be but clearly between rents, food/drink spends, transport and pure leisure the amount of money entering the city centre and Ferrybank economy would be considerable. It would also mean a boost in the population certainly for 8 months of the year esp in the winter when things tend to be deathly quiet bar 4 weeks of Winterval.

The city council should be over this idea like a rash.

coastwatch

I think there should be much more emphasis on public access / leisure / recreational use of the site. The entire length of quay side x 20m wide should be public access. This could be developed into a river side walk and cycle path, with seating and picnic area, green space and both covered and "open air" event spaces. The proposed pedestrian bridge, which should also include a cycle path, would add to the attraction of the location.
The leisure activity would support cafes and restaurants, with a lot of outdoor seating, in what would prime locations, south facing views over the city.

The waterfront should be used as an expansion of the current marina on the south quay which seems to be nearly full most of the time now.
A public access slipway would allow all types of recreational water use to develop, which would be a unique attraction for a city.

The city planners need to be far more imaginative with the project. The focus should be on developing the public recreational and leisure use first, and private investment will follow.

azimuth17

Deiseen wrote: »

An atmosphere that Waterford has absolutely zero of.

The city needs an entire make over and reincarnation, which the original North Quays plan created.

This will remain empty like City Square, Railway Square and Ferrybank. Guarantee it.

This is particularly sad post, but hey, who cares?

North Quays offered something new but reincarnating the city by building outside it is fraught with problems. I am as disappointed as anyone that project did not proceed, but s**t happens. Something new will be tried there and the site will be developed. As I said on another forum, second cath lab now under construction at UHW simply because people stuck at it for the past five years. Are you suggesting we just roll over?

City Square is not empty. Debenham's closed, as they did all over Ireland, new large unit for rent probably caused by wait and see North Quays issue, Railway Square is not empty Pinks new restaurant business and bar are there and interior of ground floor space has been set up for a call centre type operation impacted by Covid
.
Ferrybank SC is in Co Kilkenny as you should know by now and has legal issues with opening. It has nothing to do with Waterford except that it creates a bad impression amongst impressionable people,

At least get the facts right before you flush us down the jacks.

914

Deiseen wrote: »

An atmosphere that Waterford has absolutely zero of.

The city needs an entire make over and reincarnation, which the original North Quays plan created.

This will remain empty like City Square, Railway Square and Ferrybank. Guarantee it.

I presume you are referring to Michael St. If Michael Street was developed and remained empty as you say then how would we fill the North Quays?

"In addition to 50-plus retail outlets, with three anchor units, the four-star hotel will now be 107-bedroom (rather than the original 152), together with a substantial conference centre and leisure facilities; arts, cultural and community amenities, and underground parking for over 600 vehicles. 28 homes are also included, as is a rooftop viewing area that will offer “unrivalled panoramic views” of the city."

https://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/e280m-1900-job-godsend-for-city/

Harry Palmr

The 2008 crash really did feck us over so many times. Three major developments written off.

new92

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The 2008 crash really did feck us over so many times. Three major developments written off.

i don't imagine we missed much tbh.

buildings from that era are riddled with cut corners and are often architecturally banal.
That and we have a problem of attracting and keeping tenants. It's taken over 10 years for railway square to get half filled.

That's grand but CSSC & ArundelSQ are emptying out, they never replaced the brasserie unit, after redevelopment, or Alfies and they've lost a huge tenant in Debenhams.

had these pre-crash developments gone ahead, where would they be today?

We need a Uni. It's the component Waterford needs in its engine. It's a driver for any City. Great jobs and interesting people follow universities.

and this last one is not relevant to anything, but I really hate the surfacing in town, down in broadstreet. dreadful ugly stone, slippery in winter.

killbillvol2

new92 wrote: »

and this last one is not relevant to anything, but I really hate the surfacing in town, down in broadstreet. dreadful ugly stone, slippery in winter.

Don't worry. They seem to be digging up most of it at the moment.

Classic city council. Wait for shops to reopen, dig up the whole city.

914

new92 wrote: »

We need a Uni. It's the component Waterford needs in its engine. we're a 3 cylinder and we should be a v8.

.

This is key but that ship has sailed. TU will be established in 2022, we will suffer from this for decades.

No political will to deliver a stand alone University and rather than fight our political representatives roll over and pull the "we don't want to be left behind" card and "we are delivering a University of international standards" what ever the f that means.

If they can roll over on probably the most important issue in Waterford then we are well and truly fecked down here.

Pete_Cavan

coastwatch wrote: »

I think there should be much more emphasis on public access / leisure / recreational use of the site. The entire length of quay side x 20m wide should be public access. This could be developed into a river side walk and cycle path, with seating and picnic area, green space and both covered and "open air" event spaces. The proposed pedestrian bridge, which should also include a cycle path, would add to the attraction of the location.
The leisure activity would support cafes and restaurants, with a lot of outdoor seating, in what would prime locations, south facing views over the city.

The waterfront should be used as an expansion of the current marina on the south quay which seems to be nearly full most of the time now.
A public access slipway would allow all types of recreational water use to develop, which would be a unique attraction for a city.

The city planners need to be far more imaginative with the project. The focus should be on developing the public recreational and leisure use first, and private investment will follow.

This is the most sensible post I've seen here. Those thinking retail is the way to go are stuck in the 90s. Retail which supports large shopping centres is dominated by large multiples, by definition they exist in other locations so that is not going to be an attraction. With the ease and variety offered by online shopping, which everyone has been introduced to because of Covid, people are less willing to sit in traffic and drive round car parks looking for a space. Even if you have large anchor tenants, they are not as secure as once thought, see Debenhams, so you won't get financing relying on that.

NQ needs attractive public spaces if it is to be a success. It needs to be place where people want to live, work and generally spend time. Being the north quay, it is south facing which is a huge advantage as it will get the sun all day. A well designed quayside will attract people and they will spend money. Making use of the water for recreation, as well as being on the greenway are other advantages. Engaging public space on the quayside, south facing bars/restaurants and small retail units at ground level, offices but mostly apartments above. It needs to have a significant permanent population, nothing worse than retail and business areas which are deserted after 6pm.

The infatuation with a university is bizarre, students don't tend to have much money. People today are very mobile and many want to get away from the location they studied in once they graduate. The key to growth, both in terms of economics and population, is offering a good quality of life for the 40+ years between graduating and retiring.

Harry Palmr

Students should be part of the mix they are permanent all year but certainly most of it. Obviously the mix should include good quality living space for young couples, downsizers and singles. No matter how well intentioned, family sized units would probably offer a poor return on the space available when you consider additional storage, cars and children needs.

Wanderer78

i think the browsing only option of retail is now viable, and might reduce costs on such businesses

914

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The infatuation with a university is bizarre, students don't tend to have much money. People today are very mobile and many want to get away from the location they studied in once they graduate. The key to growth, both in terms of economics and population, is offering a good quality of life for the 40+ years between graduating and retiring.

But a University is far more than students. A University such as UL would double the staffing numbers in WIT.

Far greater budget for research which generates far greater FDI and start up companies. Which brings high skilled and high paying jobs, which increases the demand for retail and leisure, eating out etc.

UL has transformed Limerick. Then you can also increase course variety such as medicine which leads to teaching hospital, which guarantees 24/7 cardiac care and as a teaching hospital much greater offering, again increasing staff numbers at the hospital.

Those students that have no money or very little as your say could be likely to stay in Waterford when they graduate.

A successfully University such as UL, makes projects such as the NQs and Michael St far more realistic and more likely to happen.

Cabaal

914 wrote: »

UL has transformed Limerick.

In more ways then one, its also driven up house demand and prices, its not all good news either.

Pete_Cavan

914 wrote: »

A successfully University such as UL, makes projects such as the NQs and Michael St far more realistic and more likely to happen.

Limerick has double the population, naturally it sees more investment. Limerick's equivalent of NQ is the Opera development and that is supported by public, not private, money. I don't see how a university makes any difference to NQ, your example of Limerick supports that.

TUSE is happening and there won't be changes any time soon. Defining success on something you know you are not going to have, at least for a very long time, means you have condemned yourself to failure by your own definition. Not a great look for anyone looking in.

Harry Palmr

University has a multiplier effect. The TU due to it's legislative basis will not and cannot really - it's basically going be as big as the Dept of Ed allows it to become through direct funding. A "proper" university has considerable autonomy - something that Simon Harris isn't keen on btw. The 1997 Universities Act is being revisted to curtail various freedoms.

new92

new92 wrote: »

and this last one is not relevant to anything, but I really hate the surfacing in town, down in broadstreet. dreadful ugly stone, slippery in winter.

It's absolutely lethal.

Deiseen

Deleted User wrote: »

It's absolutely lethal.

Another grand design by the council. They consistently go with the wrong option, time and time again.

The fountain in John Roberts square is just the best example of the kind of decision making that they impose on the town.

aziz

It’s like those cantilevered stone slab seats in arundel square were falling over to had to have a extra support put in

killbillvol2

What's the city's most attractive feature? The river.

Council geniuses: Let's build a ****ing car park the length of the quays!

Azatadine

killbillvol2 wrote: »

What's the city's most attractive feature? The river.

Council geniuses: Let's build a ****ing car park the length of the quays!

Some difference in how Wexford developed their quay compared to Waterford for sure. Its an amazing job in Wexford and hosts activities like Spiegeltent and all kinds of other activities through the year (under normal circumstances) Lovely for a walk too. I suppose the open sea frpm Wexford quay front is a better vista than the opposite side of the rover in Ferrybank here to be fair so probably shouldn't be compared.

914

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Limerick has double the population, naturally it sees more investment. Limerick's equivalent of NQ is the Opera development and that is supported by public, not private, money. I don't see how a university makes any difference to NQ, your example of Limerick supports that.

TUSE is happening and there won't be changes any time soon. Defining success on something you know you are not going to have, at least for a very long time, means you have condemned yourself to failure by your own definition. Not a great look for anyone looking in.

And why is Limericks population double. Galway not so long ago was smaller than Waterford and has greatly passed us out over the past few decades, why? University?

We see population booms in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway, why? University cities. People attended these Universities once graduated have great career prospects in theses areas and decided to stay put and not move.

Universities are tired and tested, it's clear as day they work and have great benefit for the city where they are located.

TUs are untested in Ireland and as several people have pointed out, they are not the same as a stand alone University.

Stand alone University would double student and staff numbers in Waterford, how would that not be a massive boost to the local Waterford economy?