Waterford North Quays

imacman

914 wrote: »

This is key but that ship has sailed. TU will be established in 2022, we will suffer from this for decades.

No political will to deliver a stand alone University and rather than fight our political representatives roll over and pull the "we don't want to be left behind" card and "we are delivering a University of international standards" what ever the f that means.

If they can roll over on probably the most important issue in Waterford then we are well and truly fecked down here.

I made this point on the University thread but its worth repeating.
Its funny to hear all the terms that bandied about by politicians over and over when it comes to the TU , "gamechanger for the southeast" "an university of international standing " "a University City" "Its the only game in town "
The one I would add is "The Emperor has no clothes " Its evident to anybody who looks at this is any detail the TU is best a just a upgrade from an the Institute of Technology , but in no way like a real university and will never be considered an equilvent to the existing universities. And there is a very good chance we will end up with just a rebrand and a less effective ( because everything will be fudged in the merger) and less enterprising organisation than WIT is today

hardybuck

There's already a thread for discussion on WIT.

BBM77

914 wrote: »

This is key but that ship has sailed. TU will be established in 2022, we will suffer from this for decades.

No political will to deliver a stand alone University and rather than fight our political representatives roll over and pull the "we don't want to be left behind" card and "we are delivering a University of international standards" what ever the f that means.

If they can roll over on probably the most important issue in Waterford then we are well and truly fecked down here.

I completely agree with this. A lot of sites were bought by developers around the city on the basis WIT was going to be upgraded to a full university. By accepting the TU our politicians have destroyed Waterford’s development potential for decades to come for their own career goals. Anybody who is familiar with my posts here over the years knows I am not a doom and gloom merchant. However, TU is going to do incalculable damage to Waterford as a city. I really struggle to see how Waterford can maintain its status as the fifth city. I really think it is that bad.

Pete_Cavan

914 wrote: »

And why is Limericks population double. Galway not so long ago was smaller than Waterford and has greatly passed us out over the past few decades, why? University?

We see population booms in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway, why? University cities. People attended these Universities once graduated have great career prospects in theses areas and decided to stay put and not move.

Universities are tired and tested, it's clear as day they work and have great benefit for the city where they are located.

TUs are untested in Ireland and as several people have pointed out, they are not the same as a stand alone University.

Stand alone University would double student and staff numbers in Waterford, how would that not be a massive boost to the local Waterford economy?

Limerick has been a much bigger city than Waterford since long before it had a university, same goes for the others except Galway. Galway's population growth in the later part of the 20th century is pretty unique in western Europe, it's university predates that by way more than 100 years though.

Its clear with the introduction of TUs that there is no desire for more universities here at in DOE. There is no guarantee that a university would double student and staff numbers in Waterford. There is a limit on demand for university places, and a limit on the number the state can cater for. It would be competing against much bigger and long established universities for students. ITs and TUs are supposed to be closer to industry, a uni handing out general degrees isn't necessarily an advantage.

With TUSE, the door has been shut on a university, likely for this decade at least. My point is that if Waterford wants to progress, it needs to accept that and move on. Despite it's university, all Limerick's current potential developments are supported by public money (Opera site, Cleaves site, CIE/HSE lands behind Colbert Station). Get a slice of that pie for NQ and stop worrying about a university which isn't going to happen.

SeanieW1977

Students have one of the highest disposable incomes. Their impact in cork city alone is over €1 million a day.

But don’t worry about facts - yea they are noisy and spend nothing

Pete_Cavan

BBM77 wrote: »

However, TU is going to do incalculable damage to Waterford as a city. I really struggle to see how Waterford can maintain its status as the fifth city. I really think it is that bad.

Anywhere that could surpass it won't have a university either so that would not be a determining factor.

914

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Anywhere that could surpass it won't have a university either so that would not be a determining factor.

I think these conversations should be pulled into the University thread, no point in clogging up the North Quays talk with University discussion.

I have discussed enough about the University both here and the University thread but this should be focused on NQs

Wanderer78

914 wrote:

I think these conversations should be pulled into the University thread, no point in clogging up the North Quays talk with University discussion.

This just shows the potential the site has, and how peoples view are on it, all options and views on what could become of the site should be allowed at this stage, it's a perfect opportunity and time for public brain storming

Pete_Cavan

914 wrote: »

I think these conversations should be pulled into the University thread, no point in clogging up the North Quays talk with University discussion.

I have discussed enough about the University both here and the University thread but this should be focused on NQs

I agree. My point is that a university is not happening for a long long time so linking NQ to a university is going to see the site lie idle. If something is to happen with NQ, it can't be based on things which aren't going to happen.

JohnC.

killbillvol2 wrote: »

What's the city's most attractive feature? The river.

Council geniuses: Let's build a ****ing car park the length of the quays!

It's not council property.

Dexpat

JohnC. wrote: »

It's not council property.

Yeah the legacy of carparking on the Quays goes back generations and was a result of a car dependent culture created that goes way beyond Waterford.

As most of them are privately owned the council are limited in what they can do. There seems to be a realisation now though that we need to claim back the river.

To create a plaza for the new bridge some spaces around the clock tower have been purchased by the council through CPO. It's a start but it will be a very slow process. They Quays look way better than they id in the 80s though, with the huge ugly cattle sheds and four lane highway running along the length of them.

coastwatch

One of the big problems with the previous development plan for the site was that it seemed to be an “all or nothing” development, too ambitious, with “High-end residential apartments, 4 & 5 Star Hotel, Retail, Office, National Theatre & Conference Centre, and Civic facilities”. That meant to project had huge cost of €350m (and risk) from the start, so no surprise there would be so much hesitation in investing.

The starting point for the development should be more modest and the aim should be to make Waterford City a more attractive place to visit, live and work.

The first phase of the development should be about public access and recreational use of one of the city’s prime assets, the quay side. That should be the initial focus of the development, not something done at the end of the development as a “nice to have”.
Creating a river side boardwalk and cycle way on the NQ, with seating and picnic benches, open and covered public spaces, will start the attraction to the location. Providing access to the river with a slipway and pontoons to develop to water sports in the city centre would make for a unique attraction. The leisure activity would support small cafes, restaurants, water sport clubs.


One obvious use for the location would be to make it the main Waterford City access point and hub for the Greenway, like the re-developed Workhouse site in Kilmacthomas.
The Greenway is going to be developed all the way to Rosslare on the railway line that passes through the NQ site.
Waterford doesn’t seem to be benefiting nearly as much as Dungarvan from the Greenway, I would guess because access and amenities are better in Dugarvan and the surrounding area.
The Greenway has turned out be one of the main tourist attractions in the region, with 70% of visitors needing accommodation during their visit.

The proposed pedestrian / cycle bridge could be the centre point of the attraction. Maybe a tilting bridge design like Gateshead Millennium Bridge over the Tyne

The world has changed hugely over the past 20 years and the city planners need to catch up. Retail is no longer the recreational activity it used to be, it’s declining.
Likewise, Covid as accelerated the move to Work (and study) from Home, so people don’t need to be “on site” as much anymore.

TL:DR - Develop the public recreational use and the visitor attractions of the site for the city first, and the private investment will follow.

Wanderer78

coastwatch wrote: »

TL:DR - Develop the public recreational use and the visitor attractions of the site for the city first, and the private investment will follow.

absolutely agree, this site has astonishing potential for such a development, we need to think differently, passing this over to major global developers, would simply turn it into a more extractive process, we also need to attract our own business communities to be more involved

spaceCreated

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Limerick has been a much bigger city than Waterford since long before it had a university, same goes for the others except Galway. Galway's population growth in the later part of the 20th century is pretty unique in western Europe, it's university predates that by way more than 100 years though.

Its clear with the introduction of TUs that there is no desire for more universities here at in DOE. There is no guarantee that a university would double student and staff numbers in Waterford. There is a limit on demand for university places, and a limit on the number the state can cater for. It would be competing against much bigger and long established universities for students. ITs and TUs are supposed to be closer to industry, a uni handing out general degrees isn't necessarily an advantage.

With TUSE, the door has been shut on a university, likely for this decade at least. My point is that if Waterford wants to progress, it needs to accept that and move on. Despite it's university, all Limerick's current potential developments are supported by public money (Opera site, Cleaves site, CIE/HSE lands behind Colbert Station). Get a slice of that pie for NQ and stop worrying about a university which isn't going to happen.

You genuinely think that the region that has been the employment blackspot of the country for over a decade now, with lower than average income should just shut up and be happy. Thank you oh saviour of the south east why didnt we just think of applying for public funding, why did nobody think of this before

Thanks for pointing out Galway is the exception in a case of well Galway and limerick, such an edge case there alright.

If you could be arsed to read the posts in the uni you'd see all the arguments for uni in the region add up and should have been implemented years ago. But continue to be patronizing to use because apparently we haven't a fkin clue wats going and ignore the research that ahs been done over decades now because you think Waterford and the region haven't been applying for public funding.

Have you any other suggestions, maybe if we continue the brain drain and the Government continue to underinvest in any real education maybe there will be nobody here so nobody might ask for more or want a better quality of life. Genius sir, genius.

I'll just end by saying you seem to have come on with a very narrow minded view, very immature opinions, a patronizing tone and no actual understanding of the issues, but we're well used of that down here from politicians, dont know what skin you have in the game.

spaceCreated

Think the new north quays would be a great place for concerts and the like, winterval and spraoi could have much more space there as well, depending on how sheltered it is. Would love to see a few outlet stores that are always a big drawlike nike .

Pete_Cavan

spaceCreated wrote: »

You genuinely think that the region that has been the employment blackspot of the country for over a decade now, with lower than average income should just shut up and be happy. Thank you oh saviour of the south east why didnt we just think of applying for public funding, why did nobody think of this before

Thanks for pointing out Galway is the exception in a case of well Galway and limerick, such an edge case there alright.

If you could be arsed to read the posts in the uni you'd see all the arguments for uni in the region add up and should have been implemented years ago. But continue to be patronizing to use because apparently we haven't a fkin clue wats going and ignore the research that ahs been done over decades now because you think Waterford and the region haven't been applying for public funding.

Have you any other suggestions, maybe if we continue the brain drain and the Government continue to underinvest in any real education maybe there will be nobody here so nobody might ask for more or want a better quality of life. Genius sir, genius.

I'll just end by saying you seem to have come on with a very narrow minded view, very immature opinions, a patronizing tone and no actual understanding of the issues, but we're well used of that down here from politicians, dont know what skin you have in the game.

There is no desire at governmentor departmental level for more universities anywhere in this country. The TUs have been set up and that is the end of that for a long time. There is no point in expending political capital on something which is unobtainable. Lots of government and EU money for well planned urban redevelopment projects though.

Limerick with its university isn't attracting the scale of private investment that NQ requires so by your own logic, a university isn't enough. Instead, it is getting lots of government and EIB money for large projects which align with government policy. My point is you might actually get money if pursuing projects in line with government policy, rather than those which don't.

spaceCreated

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There is no desire at governmentor departmental level for more universities anywhere in this country. The TUs have been set up and that is the end of that for a long time. There is no point in expending political capital on something which is unobtainable. Lots of government and EU money for well planned urban redevelopment projects though.

Limerick with its university isn't attracting the scale of private investment that NQ requires so by your own logic, a university isn't enough. Instead, it is getting lots of government and EIB money for large projects which align with government policy. My point is you might actually get money if pursuing projects in line with government policy, rather than those which don't.

Government departmental level is not a law of nature like gravity, it can and should be affected by what the actual citizens want and need. In the same vein the hse had no appetitie to provide Waterford with a mortuary suitable to requirement and resulted in in bodies piling up on floors and bodily fluids leaking on to hallways, going by your reasoning we should have been happy with that because Government department bla bla bla.

I didnt say anything about north quays being affected by a uni or lack thereof please 1. read my comment 2. read the research in to why the region needs a uni ebfore commenting.

I dont think you have a basic understanding of how things work down here, basically we get nothing or get ignored unless we make noise, and even then its mostly the same.

As for your argument well a uni wont provide this that or the other, its like saying theres no single fix for a massive problem so we'd better not try and fix it all.

Most importantly why the fk do you think were not pursuing absolutely every single avenue for funding and investment in to the region? We are and have been for years so please please get off tour high horse and stop being so condescending.

azimuth17

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There is no desire at governmentor departmental level for more universities anywhere in this country. The TUs have been set up and that is the end of that for a long time. There is no point in expending political capital on something which is unobtainable. Lots of government and EU money for well planned urban redevelopment projects though.

Limerick with its university isn't attracting the scale of private investment that NQ requires so by your own logic, a university isn't enough. Instead, it is getting lots of government and EIB money for large projects which align with government policy. My point is you might actually get money if pursuing projects in line with government policy, rather than those which don't.

Always amazed at the voices that emerge from nowhere to tell us that we should not have something or other. Like Cork, "We wants it!" And will fight to the end to get it. We were treated like dirt with awful gerrymandering of figures to justify why second cath lab and 24/7 cardiology should not be provided in UHW when it is provided in Limerick UH, a hospital of same size and remit. Pressure and resilience have secured second cath lab which is now being built.

Go sell "you're not not entitled to story to Galway"!

Harry Palmr

Someone from Cavan (?) telling us to know our place is a bit much.

coastwatch

I think Pete_Cavan has made some valid points about not allowing the university status debate to get in the way of developing the NQ, if for no other reason than to avoid another 20 years of "will it/wont it" ever happen.

I really dont get personal attacks in reply. It reflects poorly on what is supposed to be an open forum for discussion. If you have to resort to personal attacks, then you've lost the argument.

spaceCreated

coastwatch wrote: »

I think Pete_Cavan has made some valid points about not allowing the university status debate to get in the way of developing the NQ, if for no other reason than to avoid another 20 years of "will it/wont it" ever happen.

I really dont get personal attacks in reply. It reflects poorly on what is supposed to be an open forum for discussion. If you have to resort to personal attacks, then you've lost the argument.

An argument that references no research or any argument made in the last 30 years that says we should be happy with our lot because some civil servant has decided they're not going to give us a uni is valid.

One tongue in cheek comment by one poster means Pete_Cavan has "won the argument" and the entire South East region should be doomed to being a black spot of unemployment and of lower income...

coastwatch

I was’t referring to the “one tongue in cheek” comment, have a read back a bit further.

spaceCreated

coastwatch wrote: »

I was’t referring to the “one tongue in cheek” comment, have a read back a bit further.

So you're saying because some posters "attacked" another it means Waterford should be happy with a brain drain on area, being a massive unemployment blackspot.

Not only this, it negates decades of arguments and research that point to the fact the South East badly needs a university level institution with proper funding.

Pete_Cavan

spaceCreated wrote: »

An argument that references no research or any argument made in the last 30 years that says we should be happy with our lot because some civil servant has decided they're not going to give us a uni is valid.

One tongue in cheek comment by one poster means Pete_Cavan has "won the argument" and the entire South East region should be doomed to being a black spot of unemployment and of lower income...

I never said anything about being happy with your lot or anything like that, not sure how you came up with that. It's a simple fact that there is no desire to create new universities at offical level, TUs have been created to specifically avoid it. I don't even see myself as part of an argument, nevermind winning or losing one, my point is that NQ needs to move forward with or without a university. Didn't think it would be so controversial.

NQ is a major urban redevelopment, same as many others around the country and indeed the world. I live on the continent and work in construction/development so have seen first hand what went into success urban redevelopments and want the same for Waterford.

My posts have always related to NQ and have been positive about its propects. Plenty of locals have come out with some serious negativity in relation to Waterford and most seem happy to accept that. I will step away as there is clearly no room for an "outside looking in" pov here. Not sure why people feel the need to get all defensive when a different perspective is offered. Good luck with NQ and in the quest for a university, I just don't see the latter being linked with the former.

spaceCreated

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I never said anything about being happy with your lot or anything like that, not sure how you came up with that. It's a simple fact that there is no desire to create new universities at offical level, TUs have been created to specifically avoid it. I don't even see myself as part of an argument, nevermind winning or losing one, my point is that NQ needs to move forward with or without a university. Didn't think it would be so controversial.

NQ is a major urban redevelopment, same as many others around the country and indeed the world. I live on the continent and work in construction/development so have seen first hand what went into success urban redevelopments and want the same for Waterford.

My posts have always related to NQ and have been positive about its propects. Plenty of locals have come out with some serious negativity in relation to Waterford and most seem happy to accept that. I will step away as there is clearly no room for an "outside looking in" pov here. Not sure why people feel the need to get all defensive when a different perspective is offered. Good luck with NQ and in the quest for a university, I just don't see the latter being linked with the former.

I can assure you I never said we needed a university to move ahead with the north quays.

What you said was we can only progress as a county and region by not trying for a university, and we should accept not having a university because the department doesn't want to give us one. If you want to you can go through the university thread and see how several articles and points of research that clearly illustrate the need for a university in the region.

Its a heavily emotive subject because we literally have been hemorrhaging jobs and people for the last decade. At a guess Id say 1 out of the 20-30 people from the South East I know who got 500+ points in the leaving cert now live here, shes a primary school teacher.

Im not sure whether you failed to communicate your points or you're moving goalposts. For arguments sake can you imagine if I went in to Cavan and started declaring the hospital should have reduced services to save money for the one in Dundalk the reaction I would get?

new92

So, aside from all that, I have to say I would be happy with a small development on the North Quays for now. New railway station, wharf and bridge first.

then the lebensraum. only kidding.

Dunmoreroader

Some sour grapes out of Rob Cass in the Business Post. Disappointing, I've been a cheerleader for him.

Dunmoreroader

Some sour grapes out of Rob Cass in the Business Post. Disappointing, I've been a cheerleader for him.

killbillvol2

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

Some sour grapes out of Rob Cass in the Business Post. Disappointing, I've been a cheerleader for him.

Where's the sour grapes? And what did he say that isn't accurate?

dzilla

Maybe he is telling the truth