Waterford North Quays

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152337#Comment_122152337

It's good to be positive that something is actually being done with the site but it's a reasonable opinion that people would like something a bit more unique or beautiful rather than generic blocks of apartments.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152926#Comment_122152926

Lets face it.

It is literally the most basic generic thing they could have possibly put over there.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153019#Comment_122153019

I'd have liked something unique and creative that echoed something in Waterford's history like Waterford crystal or Vikings etc..

Maybe if the hotel echoed Reginald's tower in shape.

Or if it had a glass facade with similar design to Waterford crystal.

Dunmoreroader

Hugh Wallace off the telly, is the architect designing this, is he not?

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122154310#Comment_122154310

His company, most likely not him directly.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122154310#Comment_122154310

Hugh cares? They certainly don't give a ****.

Slap in housing. Make money. Run away.

Flow Motion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122153019#Comment_122153019

As other post have alluded to its a re-run of Railway Sq/O'Connell St/Penrose Lane/Mary St…. blocks of apartment. No offence to anyone but we can probably guess the type of client that'll end up living over there if the above sites are anything to go by. Investors will snap em up and rent em to all n sundry.

914

For reference on building heights, railway square is 7 stories

914

That is a concern I would have with apartments, the mentality in Ireland is to buy a house and if you are in the market you pick a house over an apartment every day especially if you are thinking of having or have kids.

In order for the apartments to work we need high quality jobs to go with them.

Valhalla90

My concern is phase 2 & 3 of the development are some bit off if they want to build temporary car parks there. I think the council need to get clarification here as this is not the appropriate development for the North Quays. We need to get this site right!

Bards

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161679#Comment_122161679

Submissions like this would be welcome as the council can issue conditional planning permission

Valhalla90

I will submit this observation along with the lack of a stand alone tall building which was required within the plan for the SDZ site!

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161579#Comment_122161579

I was literally thinking the exact same thing. The councils failure to facilitate the construction of high quality office jobs in the city over the years has led to a total glut of high quality jobs in the city centre. They are all on the outskirts, where the houses are where people want to live.

Most people who buy / rent these apartments will most likely be young and will not have high paying jobs in the immediate centre that will allow them to pay their rent / mortgage.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122161833#Comment_122161833

I previously didn't want to be the one negative Nancy and submit an observation.

But now thay we've all seen them and seem to be on the same page, i think its our obligation to submit some.

Kilkenny36

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122149159#Comment_122149159

What you are interested in is development for developments sake, it would be better leave it be rather than build something that adds nothing. Those apartments could be built on any other derelict site in the city, our waterfront is too valuable to give it away to a developer to build to maximise profits. Your post mentions viable, this is where things go wrong, when you only look at what is viable for a developer. This should be a cultural area, entertainment area, it should look iconic. But it won't, nobody will walk over the bridge to visit the area. You are looking at this from a purely money making exercise. This is not the way to develop our unique riverside for the benefit of the people.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165160#Comment_122165160

+1000%

Dexpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165160#Comment_122165160

I’m certainly not coming at this from the developers’ potential but from Waterford’s perspective. Ok if you don’t like the word viable put in ‘practical’ ‘possible’ ‘deliverable’.

If something doesn’t work for the developer nothing is going to happen. The city will be left with a derelict site for another 25 years. Many of the same people who complain that it’s not good enough now, will be saying that ‘nothing ever happens in this town’, ‘the town is dead boy’.

That doesn’t mean settling for something of poor design. I agree that what is built should be of the high-quality and that the mix should be right. I’d love to see a tall building and something iconic. However, notwithstanding those issues (which we have no control over), I do think that what is proposed in terms of now mix is right for phase 1. I’m sure the council have had to compromise on what is possible.

High density development in city centres’ is helping to reverse decades of hollowing out in favour of the suburbs. That comes from apartments. People living on the NQ will revitalise the city. There is a huge shortfall of accommodation, yet people don’t want them built. Given the current market, if there were other suitable sites in the city centre there would be more in the pipeline. The SDZ planning permission for this site means the planning risk is removed.

Apartments work on this site in terms of commercial viability, but it will also work for Waterford. People continually complain that John Roberts SQ is dead after the shops close. Along with the two hotels the development should give an impetus for the streets up to John St really come back to life in the evenings.

I don’t agree that no one will ever go across the bridge to visit the area. I reckon that it will be widely used. There will be scope for a small number of restaurants/bars, shops initially, there will be hotel bars and a conference centre. It will have a riverside promenade and will be south facing getting the sun long into the evenings in the Summer.

The site will also be the intersection of the most successful greenway in the country and the new Wexford greenway. Thousands of Ferrybank residents will now be within easy access of the city centre on foot. All will pass through the site.

If this was the full development mix then yes, I’d be disappointed. However, it is only the first step, which if successful, should lead to a large cultural and other elements. If this first step doesn’t happen, nothing else will.

I understand people have their own opinions but I’ve no problem with high density 9 story apartment blocks being a major part of the NQ. It will be major step to revitalising the city centre. It’s exactly what we need if the design is right.

I get that people in Ireland seem to have an aversion to apartments but I’m confident that will look good in this riverside location as a contrast to the city on the other side.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122166350#Comment_122166350

I just don't understand your optimism on this. Now that everyone has seen the plans, your viewpoint is totally out of kilter with every single person on this thread.

This development is supposed to future proof Waterford. If we get this wrong we are not just facing a 25 year problem but a 100 year problem.

If this is what is achievable and the developer has genuinely tried to deliver the maximum potential of the site while also doing their due diligence, then it is clear that there is very little interest in investment in Waterford City.

Bards

We have not seen the detailed plans yet.. So we are not all against it yet as the devil is in the detail.. All we have is a pre planning notification…

The pre-planning notification does sound naff but until we have the actual details and proper renders I'm holding off dismissing the plan as its premature

Dexpat

My optimism is based on the mix of development in the planning notification. I believe a large residential element and hotels which Waterford is really lacking is correct, plus it deliverable. As Bards said we haven't seen detailed renders. It's important that the design is of high quality. Harcourt's track record has been good in the past, so let's see.

Bards

Looks like the renders are now on the architects website... Don't know how accurate they are as the hotel looks only 6 stories tall?

https://douglaswallace.com/

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168878#Comment_122168878

Not sure the hotel is in that render as I think it was to the left of those buildings

Chip Whitley

Have to say, that render is a bit uninspiring, isn't it. It's not awful or bad by any means, just feels like a missed opportunity.

Also looks a lot like another project of theirs in Dublin. https://douglaswallace.com/projects/alexandra-place

Bards

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168986#Comment_122168986

Bland is the word I would use. Nothing that you wouldn't see in any other city accross the world.. Look at other modern architecture buildings that stand out.

The Gherkin in London and the Dancing building in Prague for example

When you see pictures of these buildings you know exactly what City they belong to

Flow Motion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169061#Comment_122169061

Waterford aint London or Prague. Its currently Ireland's 5th city. Whereas 30/40yrs ago it was @ No. 4, in front of Galway. Not the Council's fault but decades of neglect by Central Government despite the millions they recouped in Wfd Crystal IT/Vat taxes. Arguably our close neighbour KK currently has a better retail offering.

A few weeks ago on this topic I raised the notion (or rumours I heard about car parking going onto the North Quays) and was laughed off or pooh-poohed as seeing to be stiring or scaremongering. Yet now Phase 2/3 mentions "temporary car parks". Rumours on the street from people in the know are very rarely off the mark and usually have some validity. Reading between the lines the developers can see the lack of interest from commercial partners in the City (cf. City Sq/Michael St development 'The Brewery' site) and the move to online sales over the prolonged gestation of the NQ project. I suggested that the car parks on the Quay were to move across the River and the city side would be a kind of park or pedestrianised area. Logic suggests that the new bridge provides easy access to the city centre & remove excess traffic from The Quay. Plus you are gonna need car parks for all those apartments. Car parks are also a cheap revenue stream for investors. Investors are not aiming for the cultural gains for Waterford. Nor bars, restaurants or the south facing sunsets. Just money. Sadly.

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169061#Comment_122169061

Just compare: Gherkin in London cost….
£138 million (plus land cost of £90.6 million) adjusted for inflation: £288 million (plus land cost of £201 million). I'm all for iconic structures, but you cannot compare mega projects in one of the world's greatest cities with a development in Waterford. Quality materials and high level finish on all surfaces and elevations should be what is prioritised.

Food for thought: The $4 billion Oculus railway station in New York, designed by Spanish architect Santiago Calatrava, consists of white ribs that interlock high above the ground.

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122169195#Comment_122169195

As the site development is to proceed in a sequential manner, like many such large sites, temporary carparks were always likely to happen, That happened with Dublin docklands and if memory serves was also the case in Cork. The notion that someone, anyone, was ever going to come in and build everything in one massive push and fill the whole NQ site from Rice Bridge to Abbeylands Church, was and is extremely fanciful.

Bards

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122170579#Comment_122170579

They were 2 x buildings that came to mind.. Look at the Bull Ring in Birmingham or the many modern architectural buildings in valencia.. These are just off the top of my head without research.. You can design and build beautiful memorible buildings for not much more than a boring cube.. All it takes is 1 x building of interest to enhance the whole SDZ.. Perhaps the Guardian of the Deisé should not be overlooked either..

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122168878#Comment_122168878

Christ, they are already starting to shrink the hotel now. It'll just be apartments and nothing else by the time they are done.

azimuth17

Some of the renders seem to have artculated facades showing six or so levels, but actually have two floors per level. Unless you have actually seen proper layouts, it might be better to wait until accurate plans are available before making such comments Deiseen

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172614#Comment_122172614

That was clearly a joke (although I wouldn't be surprised as this development is getting worse by the minute).

Also I wasn't the one who made the initial observations on the reduced height of the hotel/apartments. That was a few others.

Bards

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/d32VKqjKSkEZze6x/

azimuth17

In fairness, I fell that almost all the people who post here, do so out of concern, frustration and interest in the development of the city. Sometimes just waiting is the difficult bit.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122165160#Comment_122165160

I like your vision but I think it's unrealistic that it should be a cultural and entertainment area.

Waterford's essentially a big town. It already has loads of museums.

I agree it should look more unique than the generic buildings presented in the renders.

Also I disagree that nobody will walk over there.

It will be at a crossroads of the Greenway, the transport hub, anyone from Ferrybank going into town so it should be lively enough.

Also a nice bar/cafe/restaurant area overlooking the river on a sunny evening will be very popular. People love novelty also so I think it'll do well.

Flow Motion

I've always thought that the ppl or cities that think outside the box always are the ones who draw the tourists and hence the money. Ive travelled widely and have seen some unique architecture and developments even in the smaller places, cities the same size as Waterford. I recall the span of the river in Bilbao being similar-ish to Waterford (bigger city) and on the banks of this river is the Guggenheim Museum. Now if there ever was a statement building that it. Google it. Similarly take a look at he Lyon confluence area - an urban renewal project with some of the most unique buildings you will ever see. Some other post mentioned Valencia - look @ the Hemisphere there. Look @ the Dancing House in Pargue. Or the Kunsthaus in Graz.

I'd roll the dice get some young & up and coming architects/engineers to enter a competition and build even one statement building that does not follow the rules. Give ppl a reason to come. You need something to draw ppl in. But it has to be different & unique. The Confluence area in Lyon is amazing. There's a mix of residential/cultural/business. Yes, Lyon is a lot bigger city but surely one city in Ireland should try to go out on an architectural odyssey.

Valhalla90

I think they have missed an opportunity to get something iconic. It’s a SDZ site which gives them so much to play around with without the worry of planning appeals. Yet we are getting a 7 blocks of apartments all the same height and a hotel at 6 storeys which could have been much taller. It’s the Dublin Docklands all over again. The original requirements for the SDZ stated there were to be two buildings of height and scale at either end of the site. This from my understanding has not been fulfilled. While the apartment blocks at 8 storeys is good for scale the hotel is a massive let down!

Bards

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177288#Comment_122177288

It was my good self that mentioned both the Dancing house in Prague and the many modern architecture buildings in Valencia... There are numerous examples around the world.. Hey even the new central bank in Dublin is different but it's the facade that gives it that look and can easily be replicated to a standard square concrete formed building which is relatively cheap to build.. We're not reinventing the wheel here…

azimuth17

This is a hotel in Drogheda. I sthis what people want, don't want?

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178535#Comment_122178535

If I saw that being built on the NQs I would lose the will!

Valhalla90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178535#Comment_122178535

This is as bad as what they demolished on the North Quays!

Bards

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178535#Comment_122178535

Definitely do not want

Bards

What are people's thoughts in the Strand Hotel in Limerick

azimuth17

Or this? Id like to see some indication of style/choice!

azimuth17

Or maybe the traditional Parisian hotel?

914

I think the original Falcon design was on the right track

Valhalla90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179597#Comment_122179597

Yeah definitely! While it’s not the best at least it had height! Still can’t believe they are going with a 6 storey hotel here.

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179641#Comment_122179641

you can be sure it’s all down to economics/ financial risk….easy for local ‘experts’ here to critique the plans but have any of you ever been tasked with planning/designing/building/ financing/ project managing anything bigger than a one of house/extension to an existing one…?

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180456#Comment_122180456

Correct, it is down to economics/financial risk and the developer ensuring they get the best return on their investment.

That said I don't think there is anything wrong with people here expressing what they would or would not like to see developed in the area.

After all the biggest stake holders in the project are the people of Waterford, us our children and our childrens children will have to look across at the NQs, live, work, socialise in the North Quays.

I previously stated growing up in Waterford and seeing all the cranes in the O Connell Street area I was buzzing, Waterford was becoming a proper city with the apartments and at the time some of those apartment buildings looked really well. Now look at that area of town, if I had my way I would go back in time and give myself a slap. I do think apartment living in the North Quays would be different but in order for apartments to work you need well paid young people to take up residency.

No matter what we do or don't say won't make the slightest bit of difference but I do feel it's nice to see people so passionate about the project and Waterford.

After all this is a discussion form for people to express their views/opinions on such matters.

Valhalla90

I am Waterfords biggest supporter. I’m finding this plan just hard to accept. We waited a long time after Falcon fell through to be given this very average design. Falcon had proposed 3 high rise, which give the public a sense of the importance of the site and scale. Limerick has the Clayton hotel which is 17 storeys on the banks of the Shannon. It’s gives Limerick a proper city feeling. Waterford is missing this at the moment. 6 storeys is just not good enough for this site. Also the SDZ requirements were for a building of scale at each end of the site. This cannot be ignored. The apartments are fine my issue is with the hotel height. Also I don’t agree with this temporary carpark idea. Once constructed we will never get rid of them. We shouldn’t accept less than the best for this site.

azimuth17

Interesting to see new student accommodation in Galway at six storeys.