Waterford North Quays

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084529#Comment_122084529

Assume you are talking about me being in fantasy mode.

Waterford chamber recently released another report saying that we leak over €600 million in retail spend. The leakage is there but the retailers are not so why not? Perhaps its an unappealing City Centre and no better way to address that retailer malaise than a brand new modern south facing development on the river. I don't know how it can be fantasy to ask for something that exists in every single half decent city in the world.

The article is below.

https://crm.waterfordchamber.ie/news/details/waterford-chamber-calls-for-9pc-vat-rate-to-support-hospitality-jobs

Bards

And the big elephant in the room is....

What private developer and lending institution will put 200m euro on the table to build such a venture when there is already a 150m (at time of build) shopping center nearby lying empty not to mention the countless newly renovated retail units in City Square empty too

The only hope is to open Ferrybank when the NQs is complete and perhaps operate the electric shuttle bus to there also.. Look how close Ferrybank SC is to the eastern end of the NQs.. They could even create a spur from the green way into the SC

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085167#Comment_122085167

And what developer is going to provide funding for a 70,000 sqft office building when these are becoming vacant all across the country and Europe? If the hotels been downgraded then i wouldn't be surprised if the office space has followed it.

The opening of that Ferrybank shopping centre as a retail outlet would also be the end of retail in Waterford city. Although its not in the slightest bit attractive in anyway so who would go near it.

Bards

Harcourt and their lenders are putting their money on the table for the office block, apartments and hotels as obviously the business case stacked up

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085251#Comment_122085251

Well lets see the final plans shall until we can say for certain what they have put in / omitted. I'm betting on less of everything and more housing as thats where the money is these days.

Dexpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085167#Comment_122085167

Exactly, while there is a big retail deficit and leakage to other areas, the debacle at Ferrybank means a huge shopping centre on the NQ is not viable. This is to a large degree, due to the impossibility of securing finance for it. The current approach of adding high quality retail to the city centre, unfortunately will take longer. The current NQ development should speed it up though.

I hope they don't add a spur to the Ferrybank centre and open it as shopping centre. That would really be a disaster for any hope of reviving the city centre. The whole thing should be be bulldozed.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085484#Comment_122085484

So we just let a filthy, ugly, monstrosity of a building in Kilkenny (that should never have been built) dictate the most important development in Waterford City in 50 years?

More focus today on our insane retail leakage:

https://www.wlrfm.com/news/millions-being-lost-through-vacant-retail-spaces-in-waterford-358091

Bards

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081851#Comment_122081851

If you look closely at the very front page of Waterfordnorthquays.ie this is the photomontage viewed from further down the south quays so has been drawn since that website went live and doesn't represent harcourt

Dexpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086038#Comment_122086038

It's like talking to the wall. Who's we? I, you, or nobody else on this site as far as I know, has any input into the development and are powerless to dictate what is built. 'We' are not allowing anything to be built.

What is being built is dictated by those who are providing the finance and have done the analysis. I agree the Ferrybank shopping centre should never have been built, and should never get up and running as a shopping centre. We dodged a bullet there.

The fact is that it is there is probably just a small part of the reason why a major retail element won't feature on the NQ. It's an added risk for the financiers to have a fully built shopping complex so close to the site and potentially much closer once the links are created. The main reason is the large amount of vacant space in the city centre due primarily to online shopping.

The only option now is to double down on stemming the retail leakage by making the existing city centre attractive to retailers. The space is certainly there, so it comes down to footfall which involves continuing to improve the tourist offering complemented by the NQ, which will add a huge number of residents and make much more hotel capacity available to visitors. Mistakes were made, but a lot of the inertia in retail was due to uncertainty created by the NQ project. At least that's settled now.

Maybe there is another option. As has been suggested to you before by other posters, why don't you raise the hundreds of millions required for a big retail element. When you approach the bankers you'll probably have to have talked to 20 or 30 major national and international retail chains that are in expansion mode and have committed to long leases. Come back to us when you have.

I don't have time, and there's no point going around is circles on something that has been settled. I'm happy to check out of this thread until the detailed plans are available.

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086171#Comment_122086171

I believe that image is from the residential side of Falcons designs (I could be wrong).

While I am unimpressed by the latest renders I'm still very much looking forward to this development and I will be taking your advice and impatiently waiting for the finalised designs/plans.

We all want to see x y and z over there but the reality is this is a private development, and the developers are going to place what they see fit in order to get the most bang for their buck.

The fact we still have the Michael St site I'm ok with little retail present there as in an ideal world I would love to see, business, residential present in NQs, empty units in city centre taken up and Michael Street developed into more quality retail stores, that would be the ideal scenario.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087056#Comment_122087056

The latest proposal for Michael street is largely student accommodation.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086551#Comment_122086551

1. This is a discussion board where we mostly discuss (argue about) things that we have absolutely no control over.

2. Online shopping affects everywhere and causes vacant units everywhere. But there are countless decent cities that still have good retail offerings despite their empty units. The retail in Waterford is dreadful in comparison to the 4 other Irish cities and we also have our fair share of empty units. The retail offering could not be any worse for a city our size, people will argue with me over that but its true and the €600 MILLION leakage proves this.

3. The existing CENTRE (for whatever reason) is clearly unattractive to retailers (the outskirts appears to have appeal) and they need something new, fresh and exciting. If this doesn't happen on the North Quays then some large retailers may prefer Ferrybank to the centre that they've all avoided like the plague over the last three decades. None of us want this and the only sure fire way to prevent this is to have something better on the North Quays.

4. If we really wanted footfall to take off, we needed something "Game changing". Whatever goes over in at the North Quays will be a bonus to the city but I cannot see how the current plan is going to attract in enough tourists to bring us on par with the other cities. We have reached peak museum in Waterford, we now need shops. Also interesting how they've moved the "tourist centred development" into one of the later phases!

5. Ridiculous asking me to finance a retail development in Waterford. Although I am currently investigating bringing in one brand that is currently missing from Waterford (out of about 10,000 that are missing) so watch this space!

6. You can stop replying at any time. I'm not forcing you to reply and I don't think I'm being in any way rude, whereas you have been.

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087377#Comment_122087377

Correct but I'd imagine that is gone by way side now seeing as Frisby is horsing on with student accommodation.

914

Regarding the North Quays and the discussion here, I think everyone is coming from a good place with Waterford's best interests at heart.

We get one shot and one shot only with the North Quays.

When I was younger Waterford was a wash with cranes in the skyline and at the time loads of really nice apartments were built in and around Thomas Street/O Connell st, fast forward a few years and it has become a ghetto with us all wondering how did any of it get the go ahead.

City square was delayed so often due to archeological finds a few short years after it opened it was dated and one could argue not fit for purpose when we saw newer shopping centres being built around the country.

So I think it's only fair and right that people voice their opinions about the North Quays, the last thing we want is to look across the Suir in 10-20 years and think to ourselves we dropped the ball over there.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087947#Comment_122087947

If those renders are close to the real thing...

then we haven't just dropped the ball, we've put it in the back of our own net.

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087952#Comment_122087952

Which ‘we’ are you referring to….? The general public, the council, the developer or all 3.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088159#Comment_122088159

Ask 914 as I was quoting them when using the "we".

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088169#Comment_122088169

I see "we" as everyone. Council tell developer of their needs and wants, developer designs builds as they see fit and general public provide insights discussions on the whole thing in the form of submissions.

Thankfully the NQs is being done in stages, the upside of this, if we suddenly see an increase in demand for retail of offices then other stages can be adjusted accordingly.

The initial phase 1 I would expect to be largely residential etc, I just hope for some imagination in the plans, a building when you look across the Suir and say to yourself, "that's Waterford, not "that could be anywhere" the convention centre in Dublin as an example, you see that online, in a book or anywhere and you it's Dublin.

We were a tad spoilt with falcons plans as that seemed to have everything and imagination and unfortunately now and new plans we will always be comparing so it's difficult.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088181#Comment_122088181

Just to clarify. I only pointed to you using the "we" as I was pulled up for it earlier. Yet everyone does the same thing day in, day out on this board.

For some reason, its only become a problem when doing it in relation to the North Quays renders / project.

I agree with you on the stages but the downside of that is that we have no visibility of what's coming down the line. If things carry on the way they are it will just be more apartments.

Bards

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088181#Comment_122088181

Phase 1 is set in stone according to the developers with plans to be lodged in the next 10 days I believe..

17 storey 160 bed hotel

350 apartments

165 bed apart hotel

70,000 sq ft offices

With waterfront promenade and ground floor F&B / retail

Phase 2 and phase 3 are open for future needs

Dexpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087538#Comment_122087538

I apologise if I was rude. I know that you and other posters here just want the best for Waterford. All your points above have been addressed in my previous posts, so no point going around the houses again.

Anyway, lets wait for the plans.

Valhalla90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088233#Comment_122088233

I really really hope the 17 storey hotel is true 🙏

We need to get this development right.

Bards

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088366#Comment_122088366

For comparison the sheraton in athlone is 15 stories I believe and has a wow factor

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088366#Comment_122088366

Why ?

What would be so 'right' about having a 17 storey box planted on the side of the river?

Thats roughly 170-180 feet - 52 meters….

Reginalds Tower is 55 feet tall …

What happened Bolsters plan for Bilberry?

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/iconic-tower-to-lead-380m-waterford-urban-quarter/26440777.html

Valhalla90

I would rather have a 17 storey hotel on the riverside than a 6 storey hotel especially in that location as it’s perfect for high density. I don’t understand why you are mentioning Reginald’s Tower as it has nothing to do with the North Quays. As far as I know the owner of the site of the Bilberry project is the same as the Ard Ri site. He sits on land. Don’t expect much unless it’s sold.

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088526#Comment_122088526

Re Reg tower - was just for a reference height wise……

Re Bilberry - was the plug pulled by Bolster or was it stopped ( planning, objections?)

azimuth17

Bolster was a Celtic Tiger project. Why are we looking back or comparing with Reginald's Tower? When the Adelphi Hotel was demolished in 1970, where the Tower Hotel riverside bar now is, there were plans for an 18 storey tower, rather like Dublin's Liberty Hall, on that site!!!!!

Lets see what the planning application brings.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088233#Comment_122088233

Here's hoping. They need something to stand out over there.

greenspurs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088587#Comment_122088587

🙄 Why so triggered??
I was looking up the heights of buildings in Waterford, and Bolster project was there……

Apologies to you ……. 🤷‍♂️

Valhalla90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088720#Comment_122088720

As I said before it’s SDZ it would be mental not to use this to get something tall there. It can’t be appealed.