Bring back the Bertie Bowl?

madmorphy

I disagree completely with the idea of having stadia near the city centre. Why should being able to get to the stadium in a 15 minute walk from O'Connell or 5 minute DART trip be a consideration? All the pubs near the stadium contribute to this huge problem of people walking after drinking long associated with Lansdowne Road.

I fully agree with MrTrojan,i can't wait to sit on the M50 for two hours to go watch a game in bertie pk instead of a 30 min bus ride into town.To be charged 6 euro for a plastic glass of warm beer from whoever happens to be the sponser,regardless of what u drink urself.Then be charged 7 euro for a slice of pizza or a burger.Spend 2 hours getting out of the car park and another 2 on the M50.Are you people mad ????????City stadia are the one !

magpie

We got thing in the post about the proposed redevelopment of Lansdowne Road and it didn't mention anything about catering for increased traffic, provision of parking etc. Clearly these people have never played Sim City.

Trojan

Hey magpie, you're right there. Have you got a contact point you can lobby for answers to these questions?

There's no question of people saying "Lansdowne is perfect in every way" - it's not. It's just a couple of hundred times better than any alternative.

Let's address the ways in which it is not perfect, for example encouraging more people to use the public transport infrastructure, and putting pressure on Irish Rail to provide more effective services on matchday, in order to reduce traffic, and on the other hand, for the developers/IRFU to come up with proposals to deal with the existing problem.

mycroft

magpie wrote:

We got thing in the post about the proposed redevelopment of Lansdowne Road and it didn't mention anything about catering for increased traffic, provision of parking etc. Clearly these people have never played Sim City.

So essentially your argument for moving the stadium is "I can't park on my street when a match/concert is on".

Did you not give any forethought to this when you moved in in the first place?

magpie

Let's address the ways in which it is not perfect, for example encouraging more people to use the public transport infrastructure, and putting pressure on Irish Rail to provide more effective services on matchday, in order to reduce traffic, and on the other hand, for the developers/IRFU to come up with proposals to deal with the existing problem.

Exactly! There was a contact email on the flier which I'll post tomorrow. In the interim I've got in touch with my local TDs and Councellors to see what their views are.

So essentially your argument for moving the stadium is "I can't park on my street when a match/concert is on".

Did you not give any forethought to this when you moved in in the first place?

No, that's not what I'm saying. And congratulations on the stock Boards response of "Oh, so you got radiation poisoning did you? You shouldn't have been born near Chernobyl".

As it happens there are many thousands of people living in the area who are affected by the presence of the stadium, including very large numbers of council tenants (in D4 no less!) who have no choice where they live. Then again why should the pleasure and convenience of people who only enter the neighbourhood once a month, get drunk, leave litter everywhere and obstruct local residents from going about their day-to-day lives be compromised for those who are selfish and ignorant enough to want to live in the area they grew up in. I guess we should all move to Blanchardstown and turn Pembroke (that's the name of the electoral ward BTW) into a giant sports-themed drinking and parking area for your personal enjoyment.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

magpie

UPDATE/

Heard back from my local Councellor today. Apparently there is an ongoing consultative process involving gardai, dublin city council, IRFU, FAI and residents groups regarding the upgrades to Lansdowne.

He's assured me that traffic management is high on the agenda.

Trojan

Cool, that's great news. Maybe it's not going to be the Evil Stadium From HellTM after all

mycroft

magpie wrote:

UPDATE/

Heard back from my local Councellor today. Apparently there is an ongoing consultative process involving gardai, dublin city council, IRFU, FAI and residents groups regarding the upgrades to Lansdowne.

He's assured me that traffic management is high on the agenda.

Does this satisfy your whinging?

magpie

Thanks for your useful input Mycroft, as always.

Trojan

Hehe, fair play.

mycroft, you want a cloth to wipe off that egg?

magpie

mycroft, you want a cloth to wipe off that egg?

/semen

mycroft

Trojan wrote:

Hehe, fair play.

mycroft, you want a cloth to wipe off that egg?

No sorry, magpie's point isn't that he doesn't want a new stadium he just doesn't want one in his back yard. He's not pushed about it's location it's just he's one of those "not in my backyard" types that f*ck planning decisions up for the rest of us.

magpie

he's one of those "not in my backyard" types that f*ck planning decisions up for the rest of us.

Just because I wouldn't let you build that 3 storey pool-house.

bonkey

mycroft and magpie - I'm getting thoroughly fed up of this constant sniping between the two of you....

Give it a rest, or be given one.

jc

magpie

mycroft and magpie - I'm getting thoroughly fed up of this constant sniping between the two of you....

You and me both, since I started this thread for a proper discussion. Can those who don't want to discuss this topic properly please **** off, or be ****ed off by a higher power?

bonkey

Which part of "give it a rest" do you have a problem understanding?

It doesn't mean "lob one last insult at the other party so you can get the last word and pretend to have the moral high ground."

Re-read the charter (again). See the bit where it says that it takes two, and we don't care who started it? See it? Well, consider that whilst re-reading the bit where I told both of you to quit it.

Now quit it.

jc

magpie

Am I allowed to continue discussion of this topic?

If so, here's some interesting reading: http://www.rte.ie/comments/lansdowne.html which gives some comments by Joe Schmoe on the subject.

For instance:

the infrastructure surrounding landsdowne is just not suitable for crowds of 50,000 ,stadium should be built in abbotstown where there is easy access i.e airport m,way ,i also think residents in l,downe will have last laugh.
paul flanagan, germany

The stadium plans look impressive but the biggest concern I have about lansdowne is the lack of adequate parking. I often end up walking 20 minutes or more to get to the stadium and this is not good enough for an international sports venue.
Pat, Dublin

No,i really think it should be moved.Ballsbridge area won't be hurting if the Republic doesn't play there. A huge chunk of Irish tax payers money is being spent here.FIFTY THOUSAND seater,big deal,is this not going to repersent Ireland on a world stage when important events are being held there. The working men and women of Ireland,deserve to have a say,in how this whole deal goes down.The last time i drove to Landsdowne road i brought a friend of mine who has a bad back.2 hours driving around looking for a parking spot because i refuse to pay some home owner 20 euro's to park in their driveway,or get ripped off by some cowboy makeshift car park,that you know your car is not safe in.I was twenty minutes late,for 2 tickets i payed 70 euro's for.The night we played the USA,poured rain,the pitch was shameful. Here's my proposal,each county has to present where is the best place to build a stadium in their county,ideas from everybody. At the end, have one final product for a hundred thousan
JOHNNY COSTIGAN, BALBRIGGAN,LEOMINSTER USA

THE HEART OF DUBLIN IS NOT THE BEST PLACE TO FIND PARKING, A GREEN FEILD SITE OUTSIDE DUBLIN WOULD GIVE MORE PEOPEL / FANS A CHANCE TO SEE OUR TEAMS. TO GO TO A GAME IN DUBLIN FROM NAAS IS TRAVEL TIME AND FIND PARKING 2 1/2 HOURS.
ALAN GILHOOLEY, NAAS Co KILDARE

Here here Tony. Cop on Bertie and lead your people and dont be giving into the snobs! Sure the D4 posh heads cant even be heard singing a tune high up in there plush seats in the east and west stands. Give us what the hardcore fans want and thats a state of the art stadium in Abbotstown or another appropriate location. And the cheek of the D4 residents colpaining the area will be like a building site. Did you ever drive through Ballymun!!!
Benny, Ballymun

Lansdowne is central and has a proud history but is yet another short sighted government solution to a real requirement for Irish sport.the stadium needs to be larger. 50k seates not enough
david cremin, dublin

No, Lansdowne Road is not the right venue - neither is Abbotstown. It has taken the Irish Government 90 years to move on decentralisation in the civil service and still they hog the centre stage in sport. No money should be given to yet another Dublin stadium - the national stadium should be South or West of Dublin in say Portlaois or some other accessible location. Inflicting Dublin on the sporting public yet again is crazy. Dublin prices, Dublin traffic, Dublin mayhem - enough is enough stop cramming more gridlock into an area that cannot handle it.
Leo Fitzgerald, Munster

Obviously there are more pro-Lansdowne views represented there as well, but I just wanted to refute the unfounded suggestion that anyone objecting to the redevelopment was a selfish local who doesn't want it on their doorstep.

Over and out. Thank you.

mycroft

magpie wrote:

The stadium plans look impressive but the biggest concern I have about lansdowne is the lack of adequate parking. I often end up walking 20 minutes or more to get to the stadium and this is not good enough for an international sports venue.
Pat, Dublin

A whole 20 minutes :eek: Boy you want to watch it there, you'd be in danger of getting some of that recommend 30 minutes excerise a day........

You want my opinion, okay I like the atmosphere of the walk down the the streets with the crowds on my way to a match.

Hairy Homer

magpie wrote:

I just wanted to refute the unfounded suggestion that anyone objecting to the redevelopment was a selfish local who doesn't want it on their doorstep.

..by pointing out that some of them are selfish suburbanites who want to be able to drive to the ground, park outside it and walk to their seats in five minutes?

Where can you do this? I once drove to Wembley, got stuck in market day traffic somewhere in N West London, arrived at half time, got to my seat. Saw the second half of the game and then spent about AN HOUR trying to get the hell out of the car park again.

And that was for a London Monarch's game. (Fado Fado)

I swore never again.

Of course the alternative was to get the tube to Wembley PAark and then walk up Wembley Way, which was at least 20 minutes walk. So you gained nothing. Getting from the station to Stade de France is a mighty hike too.

Face it. When you're going to a big football match you are going to have to spend a hell of a lot of time in the neighbourhood of the ground. Where would you rather be stranded? Blanchardstown or Dublin Foar?

No contest.

bonkey

Its not about where you'd prefer to be stranded.

Contrary to the lines so many people seem to be thinking along, the location of a stadium is not approved or otherwise based on how well it suits the fans. It is not the fans' appproval which is key to the government's decision, but rather how the chosen location can be managed, and what the impact on the locale will be.

jc

Hairy Homer

bonkey wrote:

It is not the fans' appproval which is key to the government's decision, but rather how the chosen location can be managed, and what the impact on the locale will be.

I think if it's the sort of dump people don't want to go to, then inevitably they just won't bother going. So there has to be some element of 'customer satisfaction' there.

But even leaving aside that point:

If you want to facilitate large numbers of people moving in and out of a certain location quickly and easily, wouldn't it be better to do that in a city centre?

Should the infrastructure to facilitate quick safe movement to and fro be built solely for the purpose of a stadium, or could the cost be offset by benefitting the area around the stadium as a whole?

Your moniker says you live in Switzerland. You are therefore, or should be, familiar with a typical central European public transport system that is idyllic compared with what Irish people have to put up with. Wouldn't it be great if for example, the DART link was improved to serve this stadium?

Then match goers would not have to whinge about where they can't park but also those people wanting to get in and out of the city for other reasons would also benefit. Big matches would only be played 10 times a year or so. But the rail link would run 24 x 7.

That would benefit the whole city and those around it who want to enjoy its services.

If the Government really wants to help it should consider sinking the DART line around Lansdowne road so that we don't have the crush of the level crossing gates holding us up on match days. That is one of the single biggest problems at Lansdowne Road.

Expensive I know, but how much more expensive than building a new road and massive car park out to Ballygobackwards.

bonkey

Hairy Homer wrote:

If you want to facilitate large numbers of people moving in and out of a certain location quickly and easily, wouldn't it be better to do that in a city centre?

No. Thats why they build IKEA et al and Industrial Estates on teh perihpary of cities rather than in the heart of them.

Should the infrastructure to facilitate quick safe movement to and fro be built solely for the purpose of a stadium, or could the cost be offset by benefitting the area around the stadium as a whole?

The latter....but there's nothing in that to suggest that the area around the stadium has to be anywhere near the city centre.

Your moniker says you live in Switzerland. You are therefore, or should be, familiar with a typical central European public transport system that is idyllic compared with what Irish people have to put up with.

Yes indeed. We have a great public transport system....and all of our major football stadia etc are on the periphery of the towns. The biggest logistical problem this causes is getting people from the main railway station (which is *not* in the suburbs) out to the venues.

Wouldn't it be great if for example, the DART link was improved to serve this stadium?

It should be a mandatory requirement that wherever the stadium goes, it is in an area which is capable of handling sufficient quantities of people through both public and private transport. To me, the former of these two puts a limit on how far out you can go, and the latter a limit on how far in you can come.

If the Government really wants to help it should consider sinking the DART line around Lansdowne road so that we don't have the crush of the level crossing gates holding us up on match days. That is one of the single biggest problems at Lansdowne Road.

I'm still at a loss to understand how this is a better option than having two stadia available - Lansdowne and whatever would be newly built as a replacement. No-one was suggesting shutting Lansdowne down, were they?

Expensive I know, but how much more expensive than building a new road and massive car park out to Ballygobackwards.

Well, see, there's the old "binary logic" fallacy again. The options were never limited to "Lansdowne or somewhere so remote no-one would ever want to go there".

jc

Trojan

"I often end up walking 20 minutes or more to get to the stadium and this is not good enough for an international sports venue"

Haha, what a muppet..

--

bonkey: do the people who go to IKEA et al and Industrial Estates want to spend time socialising with each other afterwards?

Hairy Homer

bonkey wrote:

No. Thats why they build IKEA et al and Industrial Estates on teh perihpary of cities rather than in the heart of them.

Ohmigod. What sort of person equates going to a football match with going to Ikea?

One is an uplifting communal joyful activity. The other is confirmation of the fact that the best days of your life are over and all you've got to look forward to is dreary domesticity.

Until your son is old enough to go to games with you. :-)

Besides, completely different purposes. If you're going to a game, you typically don't want to drive as you want to eat drink and get shiftaced before and after (during if they let you) the game. If you're going to Ikea, you will typically want to bring your car to haul your loot home.

The latter....but there's nothing in that to suggest that the area around the stadium has to be anywhere near the city centre.

It doesn't have to be. It's just that it's better if it's in the city centre, for all the reasons given about the ancillary services. If you don't want to eat drink and take in the atmosphere, you may as well watch it on TV.

Yes indeed. We have a great public transport system....and all of our major football stadia etc are on the periphery of the towns.

Does that still include the Wankdorf stadium? Or has it been rebranded?

The biggest logistical problem this causes is getting people from the main railway station (which is *not* in the suburbs) out to the venues.

Quite. Why not have the ground within walking distance from town centre?

Well, see, there's the old "binary logic" fallacy again. The options were never limited to "Lansdowne or somewhere so remote no-one would ever want to go there".

Well to be fair. The thread title refers to the Bertie Bowl which was planned for just such a place.


Rather than go round in circles I will just reiterate my basic preferences for major stadia, having been to many different ones in several countries. The best ones Lansdowne Road, Murrayfield, Millennium Stadium Cardiff are in places where you spill out of the ground and into a pub, restaurant or hotel. And thence to wherever you are living/staying.

The others, however impressive the stadium itself, were not the same. Wembley was a toilet in the middle of soul-dead suburbia. Even when you didn't have to run the gauntlet of Inger-land supporters. Stade de France is in the French equivalent of Tallaght. (No offence but who wants to visit there?) Parc des PRinces - a magnificient stadium- was not much better.

Yes we need to plan carefully for the new Lansdowne Road. Not that we are likely to. There is much that needs to be improved. But ask anybody from Britain who has been over for a rugby international to Dublin what they like about the place and they'll tell you it's the atmosphere in the city, the fact that the place gets taken over by the big match fever and is therefore so much more welcoming than a fabulous big stadium built out in some bloody industrial estate.

Keep those places for the Ikea stores.

Trojan

Dare I add Croker to Homers list?

Fantastic location for walking to from town, although it is a huge 20 minute walk from my house in Killester.

Come to think of it, it takes longer to get to my seat in the Upper deck from the stiles than to get to the stadium from my home.

Reading this thread, I am forming the suspicion that everyone who objects to the city centre stadia *don't actually go to sporting events*.

the_syco

I've read most of the thread, and I see a few things;

No-one mentions the fact that our "home" matchs will be played in England if we get the Euro football thing. Great. England

No-one seems to cop-on that this is a wee bit bigger than playing friendlies in a home pitch. The places mentioned so far; those countries all have suitable pitches for rugby and football internationals.
We don't.

Actually, we do. Croke Park. But we can't play soccer there.

Why do we need Bertie's Bowl? I'll tell you. So that we can drive to it.

Drive, I say? But you want to drink! Well, if we don't get a Bertie's Bowl, you don't have to drive. You can fly to bloody England, and get a bloody coach or train to the bloody football pitch in England!

Imposter

Trojan wrote:

Reading this thread, I am forming the suspicion that everyone who objects to the city centre stadia *don't actually go to sporting events*.

Was the * there for a reason?

Having a stadium in the city centre is great for those living in the city and those able and prepared to use public transport. People who aren't likely to use public transport are less likely to need pubs, restaurants etc to be near the stadium. It's 2 different sets of circumstances and two different opinions. Neither imo is right or wrong.

Trojan

I don't want to drive or fly - I want to walk to Lansdowne, which plans are in place to redevelop. "playing friendlies in a home pitch" is a far cry from Ireland vs England in a Six Nations Grand Slam decider, or a RWC91 World Cup Semi-Final. *Those* are the games I want in the city centre, for all the good reasons listed above in this thread.

Having a stadium in Abbotstown, or Belmullet, or whatever other idiotic location you can come up with misses the point that the sports fans have repeated stated in this thread. It's about more than just "easy to drive to". We *don't* need Bertie Bowl.

This ain't rocket science, or even any science, it's development, which our money-grubbing developers in this country have actually become half-decent at. I hope that enough progress on the redevelopment has been made at this point that it's impossible to backtrack.

Trojan

*emphasis* is a throw-back to text only communication on bulletin boards, sorry for the confusion. Still commonly used in mailing lists.

Imposter wrote:

People who aren't likely to use public transport are less likely to need pubs, restaurants etc to be near the stadium.

I'm a supporter of public transport - and it's just as easy from people from far away to get to city centre stadia via public transport as it is via private transport. That excuse doesn't hold much water with me - as you say, it's an opinion, and not one I respect much.