Traditional Martial Arts?

pearsquasher

I thought it would be interesting to do a little survey on TMA's. Get an idea of who's doing what, where it comes from, what you get out of it etc. In a sea of modern self defence, MMA, sports-MA's there is very little on this board about the TMA's and i'm curious to see whats out there.

I'm talking Japanese old styles, Chinese styles, Filipino and the rest. Ones that haven't been diluted into sports or aren't billed as self-defence MA's. Please no debates on whats "best" or anything and no "why don't you check out my club" spams!

I heard of a Katori Shinto Ryu chap in Galway and apparently there's a Western Soke of a Japanese school in the South! Perhaps some folks have gone to seminars abroad and have groups training over here. Maybe you do Western style medieval fighting for re-enactments?


Personally, I study Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu which comprises of 9 TMA's from Japan. We study natural body movement as developed from actual combat. For me its a complete study and has even led me to Japan to train for a few weeks with the current master teachers.

Whats your TMA and where'd it come from. I know a few guys who've been to China to train with the sources there too and am wondering are there many people around who are into this level of study? Perhaps you do a less traditional one but have travelled far to train in it?

Colm_OReilly

Ones that haven't been diluted into sports or aren't billed as self-defence MA's

It could just be me, but that sounds like you feel Sport MA's or Combat Athletics aren't as valuable as TMA's in your estimation. Am I picking you up wrong?

Please no debates on whats "best" or anything and no "why don't you check out my club" spams!

Dude! You should check out my club!

Personally, I study Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu which comprises of 9 TMA's from Japan

Wouldn't combining 9 martials be considered diluting. Not trying to piss you off or anything but their seems to be an inconsistancy in what you're saying.

Peace Out,
Colm

pearsquasher

Yes, you're picking me up wrong and, combining of 9 schools could be called dilution in one sense...but not the sense that matters. The principles of the 9 schools aren't diluted, as far as I've experienced, and thats what matters.

So TMA's anyone? Which ones, what you get out of it etc?

Clive

pearsquasher wrote:

So TMA's anyone? Which ones, what you get out of it etc?

Well that depends on your definition of "traditional".

MMA can trace it's "lineage" back to the ancient Greeks. Muay Thai back to the time of Jeebus, but most people don't consider them TMAs.

If you mean something Asian with forms etc. then I still occasionally do a bit of TKD and Lau Gar Kung Fu. What do I get out of it? A bit of fun really, and some women.

pearsquasher

Well that depends on your definition of "traditional".

Good point. I suppose i mean if emphasis is placed in training on the principles of the art as they were thought to generations previously. If you are in an art that is generally acknowledged as being of a succesive lineage in time, reaching back over at least a hundred years. I'm not debating whether "old is better" or anything, just talking about the nature of "traditional". I mean theres traditional music and modern and we all have an idea of which is which don't we.


In the end, if you feel you are doing a traditonal MA then you'll have a sense of connection with a deep history of the art, a sense that for generations people have practiced it and passed it on, possibly adding to it along the way, evolving it with the times.

Maybe your art is traditional in the sense that it celebrates a certain period in history, or a certain individuals sucess in battle. I would think if its tradtional then it has been based on some sort of systematic schooling structure like the Ryu of Japan ... or maybe its tradtional in a more family-orientated kind of way? Tradtional arts also usually have weapons that aren't generally used anymore but highlight and amplify the principles learned.

If you do one then you probably know it..... there could be tradiitonal AND modern aspects of the art. I suppose somebodies "hybrid" or "mixed" could be defined as being "traditional" too, but i think if you're in a traditional school, its pretty obvious from how its thought, of its history, that it can be defined as such.

Again, i'm not trying to debate here and thats my own definition of sorts. If you do what you feel is a TMA then it'd be nice to hear from you.

Kevin_rc_ie

Ones that haven't been diluted into sports - lol is this an attack on judo?

Dyr

hmm Im not even sure what a tma is these days, i think its a bit of a silly term

eg: i know a few people who were practicing whats now called bujinkan budo taijutsu back when it was ninjutsu-karatedo. they'd hold that what is taught now is almost totally different to the early 80s late 70s stuff. So what is "traditional" about so many "TMA"s ??

paddyc

Clive

are you clive S? FYI ... and not to be an arse hole ...Ancient Greeks did have a go at MMA on the battle field but cast it aside as they loosing to many men and getting slashed to pieces, they then favoured the jab cross headbutt approach where the minute the enemy got with in 3 ft, they were dead ....

Alex the great has writings on this where he notes that deaths and injuries in battle and practice were notably down

paddy

Zonko

I am going to bujinkan next year when I am going to university in Belfast. Seems a bit kickass, but 40 miles is too far to travel twice a week for me, so gonna have to wait untill then. =/

Kevin_rc_ie

can we have a hands up to see what ppl do "martial arts" for?

a.in order to be a ninja (as in steven seagal) or
b. fun, exercise, learn new stuff

vasch_ro

I would say that I practise martial arts primarily for Fitness, weight control and fun. When i first began martial arts training many moons ago it was out of curiosity of the general mystique and mythos of the martial arts .
I started training in Wado Ryu Karate which I enjoyed immensely ,at the time I did it for self defence reasons ( which may have been a subconcious desire) but now just for the above ( ie fitness and for social reasons)

I also joined UCD Bjj club and jiu jitsu is a very old martial art certainly out dating Karate on mainland Japan in many ways bjj is a TMA it certainly has a lot of tradition behind it , I realised that its training methodolgy was more effective with an empahisis on aliveness and at the time this was important for me given my line of work , but I have to say more than any other reason i continue to go is the fun and social element in the club the physical nature of the training helps me chill out and again keep my weight down which is priority for me at the moment.

I also dabbled in Aikido in UCD and also Lau Gar kung Fu.

some my no.1 reason is FUN FUN FUN

blondie83

Yeah have to pretty much agree with you there. I do bujinkan, and find that the classes are fun, interesting and a great way to keep fit and healthy. You're also meeting your friends and getting to know new people which is always good. Then there is the added benefit of learning some self defence!

Kevin_rc_ie

so no one wants to be a glimmer man, or a chef that can kill 50 terrorists in about 50 seconds? with a credit card?

columok

so no one wants to be a glimmer man, or a chef that can kill 50 terrorists in about 50 seconds? with a credit card?

Well I have been working on my pony tail, crap acting and being mysterious...

I think I better get back to my credit card katas though...

rainbow kirby

Fun and fitness mostly for me. Though competitions are fun too. I'm still pissed off with work for not giving me time off to go to the nationals last weekend. A girl in my club who I routinely beat in sparring won my section.

Kevin_rc_ie

sparring in club is completely difference to competition. thats my two cents anyway.

only one way to settle it thou rainbow, challenge her to a duel, a fight to the death.

i'm not actually trying to trivialise this thread so i hope i dont come across that way. just having a little banter

vasch_ro

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

so no one wants to be a glimmer man, or a chef that can kill 50 terrorists in about 50 seconds? with a credit card?

I think that deep down inside them everyone has this desire to be the glimmerman/ niko / zatoichi its part of the mythos of the martial arts thats perpetuated by movies how many people took up kung fu because of Bruce Lee ??

Kevin_rc_ie

i couldn't get anyone to admit that vasch. second chance for ppl to own up.

anybody doing martial arts, so if needs be, they can batter some random ppl? and then bow afterwards?

Clive

paddyc wrote:

Clive
are you clive S?

The one and only Paddy!

paddyc wrote:

FYI ... and not to be an arse hole ...Ancient Greeks did have a go at MMA on the battle field but cast it aside as they loosing to many men and getting slashed to pieces, they then favoured the jab cross headbutt approach where the minute the enemy got with in 3 ft, they were dead ....

Alex the great has writings on this where he notes that deaths and injuries in battle and practice were notably down

I'm not trying to say that trying to pull out a funky leglock in the midst of a horde of angry Persians is a good idea, just that the idea of MMA can be traced back to the ancient Olympics in the form of pankration. Boxing, wrestling, MMA, Muay Thai etc aren't often considered "traditional" martial arts, but generally they have far more history than many so-called TMAs which are less than 100 years old!

pearsquasher

Hmmm..... i suppose "traditional" is a strange term these days. I mean boxing does have a long tradition, full of different schools of thought, eccentric characters, defining moments etc. I know modernish arts like Aikido, Karate and Judo have their fair share of these things too and of course you can trace back BJJ and the like to see where they came from. Everything has a history but some arts place more emphasis on theirs than another and its these ones i'm interested in hearing about.

Is the history of your art one that can be inspiring, enjoyable to research and to read about? To know where certain techniques come from, how they were used in actual combat and how some of the arts features have changed over time.

I mean, if you do some sort of classical Kung Fu style, does your teacher know or talk about its history, about the people who used it etc? Do you know about your teachers teacher, and their teacher etc etc ?

I'm sure there are boxers out there who watch footage, read books and learn from the disciplines great innovators. Some may even go right back to its roots. Thats what i mean about tradition... a wellspring of knowledge that you can tap into to provide mental refreshment during your actual day-to-day training.

Lets keep this on-topic folks - it'd be good to hear about anyones experiences with martial arts knowedge they feel has come from this sort of rich historical tradition.

Perhaps you are like me and got into MA as a teenager cos it seemed cool, and the movies inspired you but then you realise that underneath all the surface fantasy bombarded at us by the media, there is actually a vast wealth of important tradition that can help you train better.
[analogy]
Its like music.
Some folks just listen to the radio, go to gigs and maybe play a few songs on the guitar the odd time and there's nothin wrong with that. Then others study music, travel far and wide to talk to composers and emerse themselves in their art, write about, play when they can, get into their favourite musicians heads and it becomes a passion. Its safe to say they'll delve into the tradtions of the music.....music like jazz, classical, opera and all that. They'll learn how this musician brought his own sound in, how that one re-wrote the rules Thats that sort of thing i'm talking about.

i.e. is you art more like jazz (for example) or MTV? Will you always just listen to 2FM or now and then see whats going on on Radio 4?

[/analogy]

Dyr

thats a bit of a strained link though isnt it?

theres a myth about a greek boxer killing his opponent with a fingertip thrust to the armpit, does that mean that george dillman is a spartan?


Actually i started training thanks to seagal even though id didnt know who he was at the time. Someone i knew was on a massive nico buzz and dragged me along to an aikido class. I still have the pony tail too

dent

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

can we have a hands up to see what ppl do "martial arts" for?

a.in order to be a ninja (as in steven seagal) or
b. fun, exercise, learn new stuff

I did the whole ninja bit. But I got tired of running across lake's and rooftops and fighting on the tops of trees. Learning to fly was really cool but after that I got bored and left.

Colm_OReilly

so no one wants to be a glimmer man, or a chef that can kill 50 terrorists in about 50 seconds? with a credit card?

I'd say pretty much every single guy who entered Martial Arts had that fantasy and still does to some extent. It's one thing I've noticed people admitting (myself included) after they've woken up from the matrix.

It comes down, IMO, to the two male fantasies. Fantasy Number 1 involves beating up 5 tough guys in front of some honey outside a nightclub. Fantasy Number 2 involves what you and the honey get up to afterwards.

Perhaps you are like me and got into MA as a teenager cos it seemed cool

Got into ma's aged 9 because I was being bullied. Got more and more scared as the years went on. Met some nice people, they woke me up, and now I can't stop smiling (as long as I remain honest with myself)

i suppose "traditional" is a strange term these days

The term TMA, as far as I can discern, comes from debates between combat athletes/MMAers adn others after the first UFCs. TMA was used as a term to described schools whose primary concern was not performance in combat but perfection of abstract forms and techniques.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

pearsquasher

By TMA I meant performance in actual combat, based on tried and tested traditional, historical techniques/skillsets with proven track records. Some folks would call it an "alive" art with an emphasis on historical record.

Here's an example:
I met an Italian dude once who studied a form of 15th century Italian fencing that was transmitted through his family (so he said). A swordmaster would teach in a school for gentlemen. Those folks in turn would achieve mastery and pass the teaching on, probably with their own additions.

Back in the day, when legal issues weren't as much a concern as honour, duels would occur with death as an outcome. He said they practice today with this in mind - no abstraction there!

That seems like a "tradtional martial art" as far as my definition goes. Perhaps there is some offshoot of that style that has turned abstract and more about form etc but he was adament that he studied an "alive" art. I could tell he thought it was fun, was physical and socialable too and for him the competitiveness was important ....but it also had that quality that i'm interested in here.... deep historical tradtion.

So anyone feel they do something like that?

columok

By TMA I meant performance in actual combat, based on tried and tested traditional, historical techniques/skillsets with proven track records. Some folks would call it an "alive" art with an emphasis on historical record.

Look at what you're saying. You could put boxing, muay thai, Pankration, Wrestling into this category. All tried and tested, been around for years, have proven track records and all have proud historical legacies!

Pearsquasher- I think you fundamentally misunderstand the concept of an "alive" art! Fencing is an "alive" art because they spar as is Kendo.

I could tell he thought it was fun, was physical and socialable too and for him the competitiveness was important ....but it also had that quality that i'm interested in here.... deep historical tradtion.

I think the question you are asking, forgetting about all notions of aliveness, traditionalism and history, is does anyone hear like to research martial arts. I think youve muddied the waters slightly by talking about concepts like tradition, purity and battlefield effectiveness. Something like Muay Thai is a lot purer in its traditional status then something like Ninjitsu. The lads train the same, fight the same and kick ass (and legs ) the same. They have had competition to keep them focused on the central concept and ideal of Muay Thai- giving the other guy a nice limp and a mean headache for a week or two !

pearsquasher

So.. if anyone here does study muay thai, Pankration, or Wrestling or indeed anything they consider as having tradtional values that are important to their training, then i'd love to hear about it and how how the tradtional side of things works for you. Perhaps you've researched some aspect of your arts history and found that its applicable to your own training - has this research enabled you to connect with the arts legacy, mentally and physically? Maybe an oral tradtion has been used in your art and you benefit that way?

Kevin_rc_ie

quoting pear : Maybe an oral tradtion has been used in your art and you benefit that way?

unfortunetely the girls in our club dont follow our oral tradition as much as we'd like. thou it is benefiting.

pearsquasher

So 12 days, over 300 views and 25 posts later and ... not sausage!

Is it lack of good teachers/clubs, preliferation of sports ma's, our quick-fix/low attention span society, poor media attention, modernisation, bad budo, bad marketing, impatience, ignorance, negative film publicity, dead arts, not enough "personality", miusunderstanding? Maybe all of the above.

Where are the schools of ju-jutsu, trad. Karate, Aikijutsu, Iai, Kenjutsu, Phillipino arrts, wu shu, tai chi etc etc. Perhaps practitioners don't look at this board... maybe they're too busy training!

Good idea.

Colm_OReilly

This

Where are the schools of ju-jutsu, trad. Karate, Aikijutsu, Iai, Kenjutsu, Phillipino arrts, wu shu, tai chi etc etc

conflicts with this

performance in actual combat

based on training methods and applications.

As a performance driven martial artist (and I don't like defining myself like that, but in the sphere of performance oriented training) I'm not interested in the history of an art, the lineage of my instructors, or the fables surrounding past exponents of it, with regards my training. What I'm interested in is whether the move I'm currently executing is as effective and efficient as possible. What I want from my coaches is not who handed them their belt, or a shiny cert, but I want advise on how I can increase my performance.

Come to think about it, when I started training with my current coach, I didn't ask him what belt he had, who trained him, or who certified him. What I was interested in was a) can he hand me my ass without the use of attributes? (YES) and b) can he help me improve my performance?

Also, on further reflection, not one of the guys who've trained at the gyms where I coach has asked me what belt I am and who my sensei is?* I never asked them to accept what I'm showing based on any proven track record, I ask them to try it out for themselves and see if it works. If they like, they can keep. If not, it's cool also.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm


*On the first day, as I begun to get to know them, they'd ask more questions about me as a person. It's ALL good.

pearsquasher

I see where you're coming from Colm but its not the point i was getting at at all. I was discussing the merits of TMA's from their historical perspective irrespective of how performance orientated they are in day to day training. I reckon some TMA's would live up to your standard of rigorous testing but only after in-depth study. Then again, some would fall down every time. Afterall, TMA's don't seemed to be built that way - as sports - so why try and force them into your model of what is a tru MA?

It seems to me like the TMA's i've seen - Aikijutsu, tai chi, Bujinkan have a history that intellectually informs the practicioner of the arts merits. (I'm assuming that practice and training does this too but i'm talking about the non-tangible, hitsortical side here)

Just to clarify, my query doesn't boil down to "Does your sensei have a traceable lineage going back x-hundred years" or "do you bow to each other in class?" or "do you practice kata?"....but was more a search for those forlks who feel they do a martial art that evolved through centuries of development. Of course whatever art you do wasn't created out of thin air yesterday, and has a history in itself, but some arts, and TMA's in particular have a sense of historical perspective infused into the everyday training that to some degree or other, imbues it with a rich and substantial element of vitality AS WELL as being an excellent fighting system.

Look.. the one that i practice is a TMA that has that deep historical perspective - if you wish to see it, (some folks aren't interested in that side of it..fine - and i'm sure others TMA's have it too and i just wanted to hear about them.... not argue the bleedin merits of them. (pun intended)

columok

I reckon some TMA's would live up to your standard of rigorous testing but only after in-depth study.

How exactly? Please give examples!

It seems to me like the TMA's i've seen - Aikijutsu, tai chi, Bujinkan have a history that intellectually informs the practicioner of the arts merits. (I'm assuming that practice and training does this too but i'm talking about the non-tangible, hitsortical side here)

As does boxing, wrestling, muay thai, jiu jitsu! Its pretty hard not to be intellectually informed about the merits of boxing by looking at its history! If the benefit isnt contained in the practice then it really isnt a benefit of the martial art - a martial art being fundamentally defined by the way it is trained and practiced!

but some arts, and TMA's in particular have a sense of historical perspective infused into the everyday training that to some degree or other, imbues it with a rich and substantial element of vitality AS WELL as being an excellent fighting system.

Ever seen a muay thai fight- look at the decoration of the fighters, ring etiquette, traditions, pre-fight ritual etc etc. MT guys have a deep respect for tradition and show deep respect to their antecedents but still emphasise performance as being a major priority!

Also arent tradition and vitality mutually exclusive by definition?

pearsquasher

Also arent tradition and vitality mutually exclusive by definition?

Not in my opinion.

Anyway, back on topic: :rolleyes:

vasch_ro

i think the problem is that a lot of TMA's are actually quite recent arts
having evolved in the last century to think of a few

TaeKwonDo , aikido , various styles of Japanese Karate( Wado, Shotokan), Lau Gar

Colm_OReilly

Pear,

I apologise if we've hijacked your thread but if I may explain my position. You cannot talk to someone in a meaningful way unless you have a shared frame of reference. So understanding and defining what is meant by "martial art" and "traditional" or "TMA" is a part of the process.

I want ot post here in response to another statement you made on your back to topic thread because I understand that's not the aim of that thread. This thread, has become a discussion of what defines ma's and tradition etc so I feel it's reasonable enough to reply here.

You said

If you feel you do whats commonly referred to as a Tradtional Martial Art with less emphasis, or indeed none, on the competiton and more on actual combat and/or spiritual refinement and/or self-development and/or all of the above, then you should post your experiences, thoughts here.

If a martial art does not have a competitive element, and by that I mean that both participants are actively resisting the others attempts at securing a goal (executing a throw, defending a punch/drunken rugby tackle) then it has no possibility of it's practitioners developing the skill necesary to be useful in actual combat. Period.

Now I'd like to express my own views on spiritual refinement and self development through martial arts. If what you are practicing does not lend itself to be tested and proven false, time and time again, and in essense you're just accepting what the sensei instructs you, and accepting that esoteric techniques work, then you are lying to yourself about your ability to fight. If you're being untrue to yourself, and not facing your ego and self image daily on the mat, in the ring, etc. how can you ever hope to develop yourself or your spirituality?

On the other hand, if you are constantly placing a greater challenge on yourself (and you're always just battling yourself) day in day out you can have peak experiences, where everything just fits and flows perfectly. Some athletes refer to this state as being "in the zone". It can mean more or less to different people.

Also by that constant challenging of the ego, and putting yourself out there, you tend to become more honest with yourself. At least in relation to your combat abilities. Hopefully that will permeate into other spheres of your life.

One caveat. Alive, dynamic and fluid arts/sports do not serve as a guarantee you won't be a dick, but they do offer a higher probability you'll be a more honest individual.

Peace and Love Y'All
Colm

Moss

Quote:
If a martial art does not have a competitive element, and by that I mean that both participants are actively resisting the others attempts at securing a goal (executing a throw, defending a punch/drunken rugby tackle) then it has no possibility of it's practitioners developing the skill necesary to be useful in actual combat. Period.

I think you hit the nail on the head there, Colm. The arguement that by not sparring you are somehow better preparing yourself for 'the real thing' is seriously flawed.

Pear, I do TKD normally but I recently tried a few classes of Shaolin Kung Fu. I gave it up cause they don't do any sparring but I did find that they explain the principles of the techniques very well. Many of the techniques in Kung Fu are the same as in TKD so it was great to learn why exactly you perfom a technique in a certain way, e.g. why you keep your arm loose when you thow a punch and tense it at the last moment. The instructor had a great understanding of why the techniques were effective from a scientific point of view. It was good to get a different perspective.

You seem to do martial arts for a completely different set of reasons than most people on this forum. I do MA for fitness, confidence and enjoyment. For you its more like an intellectual sudy, which is cool, however it is an unusual approach to MA and maybe thats why your not getting much feedback.
Moss.

dabhal

I always find it funny the way people go on and on about "| want to know that it works on the street" " actual combat"
Where do you people live that you need to be able to fight to such extremes?
The odds of such an event IMO are pretty slim espically if you have half a brain. I'm sure I have avoided plenty of suitations that would have ended in punch up by simply crossing the road, ignoring the rants of some ignorant thug and basicaly looking like I would fight back if needs be.
I have walked away and probably looked like a coward from many idiots in pubs on the street.
I might not look really cool like I would doing a bruce lee but at the end of the day whats the F^^%in point. A few morons get to feel like big lads, so what.
I orginally joined if i'm honest cos I wanted to be able to run riot in a fight and be respected........then I grew up and copped on.
I train now as a hobby YES I said hobby, I know its a mortal sin in the MA world to say that but I find the reasons for anything else to be pathetic.

If you are really worried about being the victim of crime join your local neighbourhood watch, don't go to area's suitations where you are likely to be attacked, WALK AWAY, move down the country, travel with friends etc etc etc. Help out the guards, ring crimeline.

In my humble( and I imagine soon to be attacked) opinion most people are just want to be looked up to as hard men or have that feeling of respect. Nothing wrong with that but just admit it to yourself.

Jaysus that went on adn on

Dabhal

Colm_OReilly

The odds of such an event IMO are pretty slim

True. The odds of me having to perform a log roll on a victim of a motorbike accident are also pretty slim. Should I not learn First Aid? Although the odds are low of a fight occuring if you follow the advice you've laid down the cost of not being able to defend yourself may be too high for some people to just ignore it. It's a personal choice, not a statistical thing.

Good points about avoiding danger and also people wanting to be the man BTW.

Colm

Colm_OReilly

Sorry for two post but I wanted to respond to Moss.

Pear, I do TKD normally but I recently tried a few classes of Shaolin Kung Fu. I gave it up cause they don't do any sparring but I did find that they explain the principles of the techniques very well. Many of the techniques in Kung Fu are the same as in TKD so it was great to learn why exactly you perfom a technique in a certain way, e.g. why you keep your arm loose when you thow a punch and tense it at the last moment. The instructor had a great understanding of why the techniques were effective from a scientific point of view. It was good to get a different perspective.

If they don't spar how can they understand what works? Understanding being the first step on the way to formulating an explanation of it. Also, there's nothing scientific about what they were doing? Did they allow their theories to be tested and falsified? Not if they weren't sparring.

Here's a scientific method of figuring out if anything works, and then developing combat ability. (ignoring attributes etc.) Pick any problem (defending a punch, getting a better trip/throw/takedown etc.) and think of two possible solutions - anything at all. Then, get a number of different people and have them test the two solutions against a wide range of people. See which one works better. Adopt it, and disregard the other one. Then see if there's a better method than the one you've adopted. Test it as above. Adopt, Challenge, Test, Repeat. then you have an effective style. Simple.

Colm

Moss

Colm, I totally agree with what your saying. I'll try to explain myself better. As part of TKD we do some patterns, the purpose of which is to show us certain techniques. Most of these techniques are also used in Kung Fu. The instructor was able to explain why these techniques were performed in a certain way, e.g. how to generate maximum power, eliminate unecessary movement, etc. Your absolutely right in saying they don't know what works. How could they? They've never tried it against someone who was resisting. Thats a serious flaw in their training system and thats why I only attended about three classes.
Hope that clears things up.
Moss.

dabhal

Colm_OReilly wrote:

The odds of me having to perform a log roll on a victim of a motorbike accident are also pretty slim. Should I not learn First Aid? Colm

I accept your point, it's just that a lot of people blow the defence thing out of all proportion.
Like I said I think its just an excuse to play the hard man.
To use your point, how many of the people who say "I want to be able to defend my family/friends" have gone out and done a first aid course? IMO they would far more likely to need that knowledge.

Dabhal

Colm_OReilly

To use your point, how many of the people who say "I want to be able to defend my family/friends" have gone out and done a first aid course? IMO they would far more likely to need that knowledge.

Excellent point man. Which would probably lead you to believe they aren't being completely honest with themselves.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

Dyr

oddly enough thats something i've been thinking about a lot over the last few months

dabhal

Bambi wrote:

oddly enough thats something i've been thinking about a lot over the last few months

your reason for training or the first aid bit?

Dyr

first aid, did the reason-for-training-long-dark-night-of-the-soul-thing the year before

pma-ire

I know this is an old thread. But I feel that I have to comment

The question put out at the start of the thread was leading, and I would think was not intended to be replied to by MMA'ers. When it was, a battle of over and back loops began (which I have gotten involved in on other sites, and seen too many times on other sites).

The end result of many of these types of debates is the thread turns into a defining discussion (which is not a bad thing ) of the terms used. Sometimes this can look like an attack on the original post, and sometimes it is. But one thing I must say is that the persons on this site seem try to keep things a bit more respectful than on others.

TMA is a very loose term. Which covers not only the arts mentioned by pearsquasher as TCM, but also any art that has developed out of the original base art (or arts) i.e. TKD, Katate, Kenpo, Judo, AiKiDo etc. Why would I class these as so?? Because of my interpretation of a TMA...

A TMA (IMHO) is any MA that uses set forms of training, be they patterns, techniques or drills. They also have an etiquette based on a tradition and culture of the country of the originator of the style.

This why I believe TMA’s are also historical views on the art of fighting. TKD has tried to move away from this and push the sport side of the art, for pure promotion and business reasons and also making training softer to get most of a population to join the classes in an area. Other arts are also doing this, and so we get to the main reason why MA'ists get pi*sed-off with their first TMA and think it useless for self defense or reality. And they are right if the arts are presented in this way.

MMA, (IMHO from looking from the outside in) is a sport (hold on ), combat based, mix of a set group of MA's. Namely, Thai Boxing (cause kick boxing is for fairies!), BJJ (to cover the ground work) and then any other of the wrestling arts of sambo or what ever. But mainly BJJ over the rest.

MMA uses the mix of skills learnt from these arts to make up the allowed attacks and defenses of it's combat competitions. Where the individual makes there own style of fighting to suit that person’s ability. All other items not needed are discarded.

The thing is the world of MA needs both. If the TMA styles had not hung around then the history of fighting systems would be lost, and if we did not have MMA then the further development of the MA's would be stagnant. Even in the way MMA is developing, it is turning into a stand-alone fighting system itself.

There is room in the world for both and a third. The third being the TMA'ers who are bringing the art they study back to the real world and using the training ideas of MMA.

But then MMA is not a new idea. Bruce Lee must be classed as the first modern MMA'er and got the ball rolling

So lots of Kisses and Hugs lads and lets make up.

Millionaire

I am total modern MA , though years pack I did Pai Lum Kung Fu (fire dragon was the club) . It was popular in ireland then.

I only did it for a year or so as the mu gen do place I trained in closed down.

Back then the Pai Lum school taught you a kung fu form and then a shotokan karate form. so I think the idea was would you be graded in both pai lum and shotokan at the same time.

lots of cool looking moves and kung fu suits back then. I was a teen then so al that looked cool to me! they never sparred much and when they did it was points fighting. which used to annoy me since I has a few year kickboxing before this.

still it was interesting to learn, but today not my cup of tea!

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

I am total modern MA , though years pack I did Pai Lum Kung Fu (fire dragon was the club) . It was popular in ireland then.

I only did it for a year or so as the mu gen do place I trained in closed down.

Back then the Pai Lum school taught you a kung fu form and then a shotokan karate form. so I think the idea was would you be graded in both pai lum and shotokan at the same time.

lots of cool looking moves and kung fu suits back then. I was a teen then so al that looked cool to me! they never sparred much and when they did it was points fighting. which used to annoy me since I has a few year kickboxing before this.

still it was interesting to learn, but today not my cup of tea!

When you say "modern" what do you mean by that.

Millionaire

I am using the word " Modern" very loose. I mean I train these days in martial arts that are not "traditional" Krav Maga is what I train in now, along with kick boxing ( of the non whimp variety ). the kick boxing I do is mu gen do, which was always non traditional. Ok when I started mu gen do in 1984 it was more like a modern karate style with kata, Gi's, bare feet. In fact I think (and correct me if worng) the kata were wado ryu kata that was modified to highed stances with boxing style punches and guard. however mu gen do changed into pure kickboxing, and there are several factions of it now in ireland. any point is in 1984 even though it was karate orientated it would IMO not be "traditional"

I have also done about 2 years of WTF TKD when at university abroad and it was a purely olympic TKD orientated dojang, is WTF TKD a trad martial art??

OK and as a post script on a slightly different topic and I probably will draw flack for this both if my opinion...I HATE The way lots of points sport karate stype clubs have hi jacked the word Kickboxing! I never did this type of training, and I get embarassed to say I do kickboxing in case people think its the sport points stuff. To me kick boxing was always hard training full contact training, if ya get my drift...Think Benny Urquidez, or JKD related kick boxing etc

columok

pma-ire:

Some good point there. What irks MMA people is when people (of whatever style) say things like: real combat arts, street effective style or tried and tested on the battlefield. I think that these so called "battlefield" arts have completely detatched themselves from what they purtain to teach namely effective fighting. If I wanted to learn to punch on the street Id learn boxing. People focus too much on the learning forthe street rather than learning the punching bit and as most of us know the best punchers are gonna be the boxers- similarily with kickers, knee-ers, grapplers in REAL kickboxing, thai, judo, wrestling, sambo, bjj!

I very much respect the idea of people training in arts to develop an understanding of an other culture and history. However too often poor training methods are explained by latching onto culture and history. I nearly think that the two have to be mutually exclusive to really get the most out of both.

To learn to fight (as efficiently as possible) you have to forget tradition, etiquette, convention and just get on the mat and spar with as few limits as possible (MMA training in my opinion). To learn about history, cultures and etiquette you have to forsake evolution of culture and efficiency as you are effectively looking at something in a cultural vacuum. The dilemna is that if you try and make the historical elements "practical" to suit fight training you corrupt and pollute them. If you try and make your fight training historical and fill it with tradition you hamper its efficiency.

Also I would question how many MA people if they trained in a strong "practicality only" environment for a while (e.g. a boxing, MMA, bjj etc. gym) would want all of the culture and history.

Anyway thats my 2c on the topic.

columok

Bruce Lee was learning and teaching western boxing, judo, wrestling and as far as i know either sambo or bjj. He was on the path to going MMA (not into the cage though ) before he died.

Benny Urquidez rocks. Those reverse kicks are pure genius.

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

...Think Benny Urquidez, or JKD related kick boxing etc

Thanks for your view on it...and Benny the Jet is the MAN