Traditional Martial Arts?

pearsquasher

Also arent tradition and vitality mutually exclusive by definition?

Not in my opinion.

Anyway, back on topic: :rolleyes:

vasch_ro

i think the problem is that a lot of TMA's are actually quite recent arts
having evolved in the last century to think of a few

TaeKwonDo , aikido , various styles of Japanese Karate( Wado, Shotokan), Lau Gar

Colm_OReilly

Pear,

I apologise if we've hijacked your thread but if I may explain my position. You cannot talk to someone in a meaningful way unless you have a shared frame of reference. So understanding and defining what is meant by "martial art" and "traditional" or "TMA" is a part of the process.

I want ot post here in response to another statement you made on your back to topic thread because I understand that's not the aim of that thread. This thread, has become a discussion of what defines ma's and tradition etc so I feel it's reasonable enough to reply here.

You said

If you feel you do whats commonly referred to as a Tradtional Martial Art with less emphasis, or indeed none, on the competiton and more on actual combat and/or spiritual refinement and/or self-development and/or all of the above, then you should post your experiences, thoughts here.

If a martial art does not have a competitive element, and by that I mean that both participants are actively resisting the others attempts at securing a goal (executing a throw, defending a punch/drunken rugby tackle) then it has no possibility of it's practitioners developing the skill necesary to be useful in actual combat. Period.

Now I'd like to express my own views on spiritual refinement and self development through martial arts. If what you are practicing does not lend itself to be tested and proven false, time and time again, and in essense you're just accepting what the sensei instructs you, and accepting that esoteric techniques work, then you are lying to yourself about your ability to fight. If you're being untrue to yourself, and not facing your ego and self image daily on the mat, in the ring, etc. how can you ever hope to develop yourself or your spirituality?

On the other hand, if you are constantly placing a greater challenge on yourself (and you're always just battling yourself) day in day out you can have peak experiences, where everything just fits and flows perfectly. Some athletes refer to this state as being "in the zone". It can mean more or less to different people.

Also by that constant challenging of the ego, and putting yourself out there, you tend to become more honest with yourself. At least in relation to your combat abilities. Hopefully that will permeate into other spheres of your life.

One caveat. Alive, dynamic and fluid arts/sports do not serve as a guarantee you won't be a dick, but they do offer a higher probability you'll be a more honest individual.

Peace and Love Y'All
Colm

Moss

Quote:
If a martial art does not have a competitive element, and by that I mean that both participants are actively resisting the others attempts at securing a goal (executing a throw, defending a punch/drunken rugby tackle) then it has no possibility of it's practitioners developing the skill necesary to be useful in actual combat. Period.

I think you hit the nail on the head there, Colm. The arguement that by not sparring you are somehow better preparing yourself for 'the real thing' is seriously flawed.

Pear, I do TKD normally but I recently tried a few classes of Shaolin Kung Fu. I gave it up cause they don't do any sparring but I did find that they explain the principles of the techniques very well. Many of the techniques in Kung Fu are the same as in TKD so it was great to learn why exactly you perfom a technique in a certain way, e.g. why you keep your arm loose when you thow a punch and tense it at the last moment. The instructor had a great understanding of why the techniques were effective from a scientific point of view. It was good to get a different perspective.

You seem to do martial arts for a completely different set of reasons than most people on this forum. I do MA for fitness, confidence and enjoyment. For you its more like an intellectual sudy, which is cool, however it is an unusual approach to MA and maybe thats why your not getting much feedback.
Moss.

dabhal

I always find it funny the way people go on and on about "| want to know that it works on the street" " actual combat"
Where do you people live that you need to be able to fight to such extremes?
The odds of such an event IMO are pretty slim espically if you have half a brain. I'm sure I have avoided plenty of suitations that would have ended in punch up by simply crossing the road, ignoring the rants of some ignorant thug and basicaly looking like I would fight back if needs be.
I have walked away and probably looked like a coward from many idiots in pubs on the street.
I might not look really cool like I would doing a bruce lee but at the end of the day whats the F^^%in point. A few morons get to feel like big lads, so what.
I orginally joined if i'm honest cos I wanted to be able to run riot in a fight and be respected........then I grew up and copped on.
I train now as a hobby YES I said hobby, I know its a mortal sin in the MA world to say that but I find the reasons for anything else to be pathetic.

If you are really worried about being the victim of crime join your local neighbourhood watch, don't go to area's suitations where you are likely to be attacked, WALK AWAY, move down the country, travel with friends etc etc etc. Help out the guards, ring crimeline.

In my humble( and I imagine soon to be attacked) opinion most people are just want to be looked up to as hard men or have that feeling of respect. Nothing wrong with that but just admit it to yourself.

Jaysus that went on adn on

Dabhal

Colm_OReilly

The odds of such an event IMO are pretty slim

True. The odds of me having to perform a log roll on a victim of a motorbike accident are also pretty slim. Should I not learn First Aid? Although the odds are low of a fight occuring if you follow the advice you've laid down the cost of not being able to defend yourself may be too high for some people to just ignore it. It's a personal choice, not a statistical thing.

Good points about avoiding danger and also people wanting to be the man BTW.

Colm

Colm_OReilly

Sorry for two post but I wanted to respond to Moss.

Pear, I do TKD normally but I recently tried a few classes of Shaolin Kung Fu. I gave it up cause they don't do any sparring but I did find that they explain the principles of the techniques very well. Many of the techniques in Kung Fu are the same as in TKD so it was great to learn why exactly you perfom a technique in a certain way, e.g. why you keep your arm loose when you thow a punch and tense it at the last moment. The instructor had a great understanding of why the techniques were effective from a scientific point of view. It was good to get a different perspective.

If they don't spar how can they understand what works? Understanding being the first step on the way to formulating an explanation of it. Also, there's nothing scientific about what they were doing? Did they allow their theories to be tested and falsified? Not if they weren't sparring.

Here's a scientific method of figuring out if anything works, and then developing combat ability. (ignoring attributes etc.) Pick any problem (defending a punch, getting a better trip/throw/takedown etc.) and think of two possible solutions - anything at all. Then, get a number of different people and have them test the two solutions against a wide range of people. See which one works better. Adopt it, and disregard the other one. Then see if there's a better method than the one you've adopted. Test it as above. Adopt, Challenge, Test, Repeat. then you have an effective style. Simple.

Colm

Moss

Colm, I totally agree with what your saying. I'll try to explain myself better. As part of TKD we do some patterns, the purpose of which is to show us certain techniques. Most of these techniques are also used in Kung Fu. The instructor was able to explain why these techniques were performed in a certain way, e.g. how to generate maximum power, eliminate unecessary movement, etc. Your absolutely right in saying they don't know what works. How could they? They've never tried it against someone who was resisting. Thats a serious flaw in their training system and thats why I only attended about three classes.
Hope that clears things up.
Moss.

dabhal

Colm_OReilly wrote:

The odds of me having to perform a log roll on a victim of a motorbike accident are also pretty slim. Should I not learn First Aid? Colm

I accept your point, it's just that a lot of people blow the defence thing out of all proportion.
Like I said I think its just an excuse to play the hard man.
To use your point, how many of the people who say "I want to be able to defend my family/friends" have gone out and done a first aid course? IMO they would far more likely to need that knowledge.

Dabhal

Colm_OReilly

To use your point, how many of the people who say "I want to be able to defend my family/friends" have gone out and done a first aid course? IMO they would far more likely to need that knowledge.

Excellent point man. Which would probably lead you to believe they aren't being completely honest with themselves.

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

Dyr

oddly enough thats something i've been thinking about a lot over the last few months

dabhal

Bambi wrote:

oddly enough thats something i've been thinking about a lot over the last few months

your reason for training or the first aid bit?

Dyr

first aid, did the reason-for-training-long-dark-night-of-the-soul-thing the year before

pma-ire

I know this is an old thread. But I feel that I have to comment

The question put out at the start of the thread was leading, and I would think was not intended to be replied to by MMA'ers. When it was, a battle of over and back loops began (which I have gotten involved in on other sites, and seen too many times on other sites).

The end result of many of these types of debates is the thread turns into a defining discussion (which is not a bad thing ) of the terms used. Sometimes this can look like an attack on the original post, and sometimes it is. But one thing I must say is that the persons on this site seem try to keep things a bit more respectful than on others.

TMA is a very loose term. Which covers not only the arts mentioned by pearsquasher as TCM, but also any art that has developed out of the original base art (or arts) i.e. TKD, Katate, Kenpo, Judo, AiKiDo etc. Why would I class these as so?? Because of my interpretation of a TMA...

A TMA (IMHO) is any MA that uses set forms of training, be they patterns, techniques or drills. They also have an etiquette based on a tradition and culture of the country of the originator of the style.

This why I believe TMA’s are also historical views on the art of fighting. TKD has tried to move away from this and push the sport side of the art, for pure promotion and business reasons and also making training softer to get most of a population to join the classes in an area. Other arts are also doing this, and so we get to the main reason why MA'ists get pi*sed-off with their first TMA and think it useless for self defense or reality. And they are right if the arts are presented in this way.

MMA, (IMHO from looking from the outside in) is a sport (hold on ), combat based, mix of a set group of MA's. Namely, Thai Boxing (cause kick boxing is for fairies!), BJJ (to cover the ground work) and then any other of the wrestling arts of sambo or what ever. But mainly BJJ over the rest.

MMA uses the mix of skills learnt from these arts to make up the allowed attacks and defenses of it's combat competitions. Where the individual makes there own style of fighting to suit that person’s ability. All other items not needed are discarded.

The thing is the world of MA needs both. If the TMA styles had not hung around then the history of fighting systems would be lost, and if we did not have MMA then the further development of the MA's would be stagnant. Even in the way MMA is developing, it is turning into a stand-alone fighting system itself.

There is room in the world for both and a third. The third being the TMA'ers who are bringing the art they study back to the real world and using the training ideas of MMA.

But then MMA is not a new idea. Bruce Lee must be classed as the first modern MMA'er and got the ball rolling

So lots of Kisses and Hugs lads and lets make up.

Millionaire

I am total modern MA , though years pack I did Pai Lum Kung Fu (fire dragon was the club) . It was popular in ireland then.

I only did it for a year or so as the mu gen do place I trained in closed down.

Back then the Pai Lum school taught you a kung fu form and then a shotokan karate form. so I think the idea was would you be graded in both pai lum and shotokan at the same time.

lots of cool looking moves and kung fu suits back then. I was a teen then so al that looked cool to me! they never sparred much and when they did it was points fighting. which used to annoy me since I has a few year kickboxing before this.

still it was interesting to learn, but today not my cup of tea!

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

I am total modern MA , though years pack I did Pai Lum Kung Fu (fire dragon was the club) . It was popular in ireland then.

I only did it for a year or so as the mu gen do place I trained in closed down.

Back then the Pai Lum school taught you a kung fu form and then a shotokan karate form. so I think the idea was would you be graded in both pai lum and shotokan at the same time.

lots of cool looking moves and kung fu suits back then. I was a teen then so al that looked cool to me! they never sparred much and when they did it was points fighting. which used to annoy me since I has a few year kickboxing before this.

still it was interesting to learn, but today not my cup of tea!

When you say "modern" what do you mean by that.

Millionaire

I am using the word " Modern" very loose. I mean I train these days in martial arts that are not "traditional" Krav Maga is what I train in now, along with kick boxing ( of the non whimp variety ). the kick boxing I do is mu gen do, which was always non traditional. Ok when I started mu gen do in 1984 it was more like a modern karate style with kata, Gi's, bare feet. In fact I think (and correct me if worng) the kata were wado ryu kata that was modified to highed stances with boxing style punches and guard. however mu gen do changed into pure kickboxing, and there are several factions of it now in ireland. any point is in 1984 even though it was karate orientated it would IMO not be "traditional"

I have also done about 2 years of WTF TKD when at university abroad and it was a purely olympic TKD orientated dojang, is WTF TKD a trad martial art??

OK and as a post script on a slightly different topic and I probably will draw flack for this both if my opinion...I HATE The way lots of points sport karate stype clubs have hi jacked the word Kickboxing! I never did this type of training, and I get embarassed to say I do kickboxing in case people think its the sport points stuff. To me kick boxing was always hard training full contact training, if ya get my drift...Think Benny Urquidez, or JKD related kick boxing etc

columok

pma-ire:

Some good point there. What irks MMA people is when people (of whatever style) say things like: real combat arts, street effective style or tried and tested on the battlefield. I think that these so called "battlefield" arts have completely detatched themselves from what they purtain to teach namely effective fighting. If I wanted to learn to punch on the street Id learn boxing. People focus too much on the learning forthe street rather than learning the punching bit and as most of us know the best punchers are gonna be the boxers- similarily with kickers, knee-ers, grapplers in REAL kickboxing, thai, judo, wrestling, sambo, bjj!

I very much respect the idea of people training in arts to develop an understanding of an other culture and history. However too often poor training methods are explained by latching onto culture and history. I nearly think that the two have to be mutually exclusive to really get the most out of both.

To learn to fight (as efficiently as possible) you have to forget tradition, etiquette, convention and just get on the mat and spar with as few limits as possible (MMA training in my opinion). To learn about history, cultures and etiquette you have to forsake evolution of culture and efficiency as you are effectively looking at something in a cultural vacuum. The dilemna is that if you try and make the historical elements "practical" to suit fight training you corrupt and pollute them. If you try and make your fight training historical and fill it with tradition you hamper its efficiency.

Also I would question how many MA people if they trained in a strong "practicality only" environment for a while (e.g. a boxing, MMA, bjj etc. gym) would want all of the culture and history.

Anyway thats my 2c on the topic.

columok

Bruce Lee was learning and teaching western boxing, judo, wrestling and as far as i know either sambo or bjj. He was on the path to going MMA (not into the cage though ) before he died.

Benny Urquidez rocks. Those reverse kicks are pure genius.

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

...Think Benny Urquidez, or JKD related kick boxing etc

Thanks for your view on it...and Benny the Jet is the MAN

pma-ire

columok wrote:

pma-ire:

Some good point there.

Thanks

I'm not gonna quote all the parts of your post but I still want to pick up on some of them.

I totally agree with you in the fact that the TMA'ist that thinks they can trust in the set format of there "historical" style. Because it has been used in past wars and the one or two guys used it to do this or that this one time when some guys done this to them...

Bull You have to test everything yourself and see what works for you. As your way to do a technique will be different to mine. Due to weight, height, strength, skill and experience etc.... Then there are some things that some people just can't do well enough to be used in a combat situation... If a person does not learn what these are in the gym, dojo, dojang or kwoon :rolleyes: then they will have a false sense of confidence that will be shattered if they have to rely on any of these weaker parts of a syllabus they have clung for the previous reasons.

Another thing that "Gets my goat" is when I see the Carlsberg Martial Art being advertised. You know the ones..."Ultimate, The Best, Sure Fire Way, Guaranteed" B*ll*cks. I used to think MMA'ers were falling into this trap. But now I can just see that they are getting frustrated by the same things I am. Even though you MMA'ers have a hard approach to the discussion of the subject.

Same as your training approach really

columok wrote:

The dilemma is that if you try and make the historical elements "practical" to suit fight training you corrupt and pollute them. If you try and make your fight training historical and fill it with tradition you hamper its efficiency.

Not necessarily man That is what MMA is I thought ?? We will always have the TMA'ers to keep the "traditional" format alive for reference.

We (PTKD) are approaching every part of the forms in Chang Hun (ITF) TKD, through research of the historical applications and the pressure testing of the possible alternatives. This is for both historical and practical reasons. We then hope to have a guide to the students of TKD that want to train with the ellements of the art as a reference to the real fighting situation they may encounter.

Tim_Murphy

We (PTKD) are approaching every part of the forms in Chang Hun (ITF) TKD, through research of the historical applications and the pressure testing of the possible alternatives. This is for both historical and practical reasons. We then hope to have a guide to the students of TKD that want to train with the ellements of the art as a reference to the real fighting situation they may encounter.

I agree with the bulk of what you are saying but I don't honestly see the point of trying to find applications in the patterns. There are loads of practical techniques readily available from a variety of sources. trying to find real techniques in patterns is a bit of a waste of time IMO.

columok

pma-ire:

I think its supercool that you try and pressure test your art but I found that when I tried to pressure test my traditional martial arts I soon realised that someone had being doing this for years and had come up with muay thai, judo, bjj, wrestling, boxing etc. Their source was pretty much the same yet as their TMA equivalent but their approach differed over the years until they diverged completely. You'll quickly realise that in making TKD patterns practical you'll be doing muay thai, or judo etc. It would be more efficient to just go for muay thai or judo first!

Not meaning to dismiss TKD- just sharing my experience!

Colum

Tim_Murphy

Exactly. I'm not dismissing TKD either (I'm a 3rd Dan in ITF style) but it is what it is. If people are genuinly interested in making pattern techniques practical then it won't be long before they aren't practising patterns anymore.

pma-ire

I know what you are saying lads (I've had this very same conversation with a BB form my old TKD association who trains with you lads I think now ?? Mark Leonard !!).

It is for this very reason we are using TKD patterns as a base. Because it gets such a bad name in the reality stakes. But I never said we wer'int a TMA. Just a progressive one (hopfully ). Classes will comprise of guest instructors from other arts and styles taking the students through the in's and out's of their system, so no one is blinkered on other views. Also cross training will be incourged, and different types of sparring. Light for those starting off, full and full on all techs allowed. Yes is might sound like MMA. But we are from a mainly TKD background and don't pretend to be anything else.

pma-ire

It's a pity pearsquasher has not come back on

Tim_Murphy

Classes will comprise of guest instructors from other arts and styles taking the students through the in's and out's of their system, so no one is blinkered on other views. Also cross training will be incourged, and different types of sparring. Light for those starting off, full and full on all techs allowed. Yes is might sound like MMA. But we are from a mainly TKD background and don't pretend to be anything else.

Cool, sounds good! Like I said I'm from a TKD background myself (IUTF in kerry). I don't really get too hung up on calling things TKD/MMA/ABC, there are good techniques and bad techniques. Training is training as far as I'm concerned.
My 2 cents...The training you are talking about sounds good but I think you should keep the pattern and trad side of things seperate from the other stuff you are talking about.

columok

Mark "G-g-g-galway" Leonard heads up Point Blank Submissions an Affiliated Training Group (ATG) of the Straight Blast Gym. He's a top bloke with an excellent bunch of lads training down there!

It is for this very reason we are using TKD patterns as a base. Because it gets such a bad name in the reality stakes. But I never said we wer'int a TMA. Just a progressive one (hopfully ). Classes will comprise of guest instructors from other arts and styles taking the students through the in's and out's of their system, so no one is blinkered on other views. Also cross training will be incourged, and different types of sparring. Light for those starting off, full and full on all techs allowed. Yes is might sound like MMA. But we are from a mainly TKD background and don't pretend to be anything else.

Well good to hear about someone open minded from a TMA. Also good to hear someone understanding the MMA viewpoint of test everything. Most people (I for one used to) think it's out of arrogance or closedmindedness that we are critical of other martial arts but when people train with us they get our viewpoint!

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Well good to hear about someone open minded from a TMA. Also good to hear someone understanding the MMA viewpoint of test everything. Most people (I for one used to) think it's out of arrogance or closedmindedness that we are critical of other martial arts but when people train with us they get our viewpoint!

I hav'int trained with you lot yet But there is a feen in Cork called Liam training in the Douglas area, and I've promised himself and a buddy of mine that I'll drag myself and my big fat ass along. It's just I'm trying to open a school myself and you know all that sh*te. But I will get to him

dent

columok wrote:

To learn to fight (as efficiently as possible) you have to forget tradition, etiquette, convention and just get on the mat and spar with as few limits as possible (MMA training in my opinion).

I guess some one could also say if you want to learn to fight join the Military which is full of tradition, etiquette and convention. Not trying to be funny but I'm sure there is etiquette and convention in MMA. You shake hands before or after a roll, you don't follow through on arm bar or neck cranks. I see your point
but I find the lads from the SBG make a lot of blanket statements about other fighting arts.

I understand there are only two SBG in Dublin and for various reasons that doesn't afford the chance for many people to train with you guys.

I train in "Traditional Jujutsu" with is a lot more Alive and less restrictive on the mat than Judo.
We also practice stand up with no nonsense knees, sweeps ( Not the silly ones), punchs and kicks.

My point is MMA is one route but its not the route for everyone. Would you advise a 70 year old to take up Aikido or Thai Boxing.

It also does not cover weapons (To my knowledge). Ie batons and knifes. When you get stabbed 20 times when sparring on the mat agains't someone with a rubber knife its an eye opening experience. (Always try and run away)

I have posted this kind of mail before and hate debating this as MMA does kick ass and I'd love to have the time to get down to one of the SBG. But it does seem that mails get hijacked by this topic.

Could one of the MMA lads list their opinions and sticky it in a thread and refer people to it. I do understand that some of the times you are only defending your style but this is not a just a MMA board.