Traditional Martial Arts?

Roper

Yeah Moss you are generalising!!

But its a fair generalisation, because that would be a fair depiction of TKD in Ireland. Its the style of sparring that everybody can do, and I suppose you want as many people to be involved as possible.
In my place, everybody spars with easy contact and then you gradually increase to your level. I have a lot of younger kids and knowing they won't get hurt lets them get in and have a go.

Tim_Murphy

Ya it is a pretty fair generalisation. Most of the stuff I've been talking about I've been generally preferring to high standard BBs not the average student. Suppose sometimes if you want to get a lot of people involved you kind of have to sacrifice what you're doing a little bit.

Moss, you're not the TKD guy I was talking to at Deadly Buzz by any chance?

mark.leonard

Roper wrote:

Here's an example I've bandied about before. The Muay Thai Teep kick is similar in body mechanics (to the casual observer) to the TKD front kick. But yet the MT kick is a far more successful FC tool. Why? Because of the environments in which they are trained. If you train to hit somebody as many times as possible, then you will throw techniques far differently to anyone who throws each technique to do the maximum damage.

From training TKD and MMA for a while now, the way I look at the effectiveness of TKD has changed.

In an MT or Boxing gym EVERYONE can hit hard, in a TKD club this is not the case.

I think it is the underlying assumption of the sporting aspect that is mainly responsible for this; in TKD it is understood that you will not try and knock the other fighter out, the goal is scoring points. This leads to TKD fighting styles which are looser and more open, which are able to deliver techniques from any angle to strike the target, but will NOT necessarily impact with maximum force from any angle.

On the other hand in MT or Boxing, when it is assumed that if given an opportunity to strike you will be going for a KO it leads to both these styles keeping very tight defences. To gain a KO against such defences then it behooves the practitioner to train to have each strike delivering maximum impact.

If one of us went down to our respective TKD clubs the next night and explained that we would be fighting full contact on our next outing then in a very short time our fighting style would resemble FC Kickboxing (or MT were clinch knees/elbows allowed). So to (finally) sum up what I was trying to say, if the goal of a stand up striking delivery system is to knock the other fighter out then it will look like boxing, FC Kickboxing or MT, if the goal is semi-contact points then it will resemble TKD.

mark.leonard

In training I have found sparring to be very light but then in competitions its very close to full contact, which means your not really properly prepared.

If contact is let go in a competition it can quite quickly get VERY heavy all right, it still does not resemble full contact fighting however. I did find the changin levels of contact daunting as I came up the grades in TKD, but at the end of the day if you do enough sparring with decent like minded guys you can prepare each other for the big knocks. In TKD sparring also if you can ignore the heavy contact and execute regardless it makes winning a lot easier imho.

What I've also seen is kickboxers who train full contact enter TKD competitions and win easily, if they don't get disqualified! Its frustrating enough. I'm sure some clubs do heavier contact sparring, I know i'm generalising.

I have yet to see a FC Kickboxer beat TKD fighters in a TKD competition. I train with kickboxers all the time and none of them would be able for my students in a TKD competition. Now any of them could knock us out in a FC competition for sure, but that is a different question.

Colm_OReilly

Nice to see you on board Mark!

columok

Mark,

excellent post.

As someone who made the transition from semi contact to full contact did you find that youre TKD training hampered or assisted you. Did you have a lot of semi-contact habits to break or had you been practising full contact throughout your tkd career?

Cheers,

Colum

mark.leonard

Nice to be here Colm!

Colum -
It was a mixed bag really it helped in some ways and hindered in others.

I never did full contact for competition before I needed some striking for MMA, though I had trained a lot with FC fighters it was always to prepare for some semi contact competition.

TKD helped in that changing the way I kicked was pretty effortless; years of learning different kicking techniques meant I could figure out new ones easily, and get power into them right away too! I also had a lot of experience at competition which helped me in listening to my coach while fighting, and adapting my strategy on the fly while in the ring, both very useful skills.

Where it hampered me was that I basically had no full contact stand up! Pretty much every aspect of Taekwondo fighting is not useful in the full contact arena, for example, bouncing on the feet (you will land on your butt the first hard low kick you take while bouncing), side facing fighting posture (gets you knocked out), loose guard (also a KO inducer) and over reliance on kicks (uses way too much energy and is much harder to score a KO kicking).

Roper

Well, even if you go to a boxing club, you'll find there are different people exercising different levels of contact. Different skill levels exist and putting a big hitting experienced guy in with a beginner and letting him loose is going to do nothing but make a guy very sore and unwilling to return. The principal difference is that the ultimate goal will be for full on hitting in the boxing club, whereas in TKD the level of contact may only increase slightly.

Frankly, I can't speak for TKD nationwide, and have no interest in doing so, but I see no problem with training for TKD competition as Mark describes it above, and in the same place training for a more realistic style of combat, as Mark describes it above! I would also agree that it becomes less TKD and more like a generic style of Kickboxing. But theres nothing new under the sun, and we all have two legs and two arms, they all bend the same way and theres only so many ways you can use them to hit somebody else.

I promised above not to get into any more TMA vs. MMA type arguments, but thankfully this debate has taken a new direction.

LOL at the mass migration from another board by the way!

mark.leonard

I am still posting on all the boards I used to! Just now I have one more.....

pma-ire

Christ Mark ! I find myself agreeing with you

mark.leonard

pma-ire wrote:

Christ Mark ! I find myself agreeing with you

Had to happen eventually Paul!

To Roper - I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with TKD sparring I still really enjoy it and do it whenever time permits. (not sure if your "nothing wrong with it" comments were directed at me or not, but just in case)

pma-ire

Not fully though . But your first posts are spot on

Roper

No Mark, it wasn't directed at anyone. My point was that a lot of TKD clubs settle for the "we do semi" line and hence their sparring reflects that. To expand further; even if you don't compete in FC competition, I believe that sparring within your club with good contact in a FC way will prepare you better for self defence. So while in a competitive sense, you might be a semi-contact fighter, at least you'll be able to take a dig and hit hard. I think you alluded to this in your last post when you said training FC has helped your SC.

Hope thats clearer.

mark.leonard

Yes, that clears it up allright. It is for the reasons in my first post that I have started full contact boxing in my club (with help from the NUI, G Boxing club). Ideally I would like this as a separate aspect to what we do, so we would have boxing for street, TKD Semi Contact for sport.

even if you don't compete in FC competition, I believe that sparring within your club with good contact in a FC way will prepare you better for self defence.

If you spar with aliveness using a FUll Contact "understanding" it will look like FC kickboxing. If it resembles TKD with heavy contact then you are missing the point of fighting FC in the first place. That being said I agree it helps for self defence.

The reason I went to train with FC Kickboxers for SemiC competitions was that as I am the instructor in my club, none of my students "put it up to me" so to speak, this is purely psychological as many of them are much better than I. To get around that I trained with Black Dragon Kickboxing and fought them as if I was in a TKD comp much to their bemusement. It allowed me to fight people who were coming at me and hitting me hard, when I couldn't get that in my own club.

pma-ire

mark.leonard wrote:

If it resembles TKD with heavy contact then you are missing the point of fighting FC in the first place. That being said I agree it helps for self defence.

Sorry Mark ! I don't see why this would be a problem ??

But I think that it would a TMA training hard and still keeping the TMA side of things. I don't see why there can't be both ??

Millionaire

I trained in WTF TKD in canada about 12 years back. while the training was hard, lots of hard fitness, and the sparring was up to full contact..WTF style sparring of course. I found that no one could thrown a punch to save their lives, and 95% was kicks, also no one knew any sort of self defense techniques. I used to ask the instructor to show street stuff and he would say, "you know how to kick..put it somewhere!".

Anyway while the training was fun and good for fitness, and sparring hard. I personally found it useless of self defense on the street. and what annoyed me was that people there had such a false sense of security re being able to protect themselves. and not one was able to punch their way out of a wet paper bag. kicks dont't work on the street in canada, the ground is too icy in winter, so you go go head over heels. plus the blind immortal god like worship of the Korean master of the assocaition sickened me, and all this bowing to a korean flag. anyway I don't mean to offend anyone here, this is my thoughs on my 2 1/2 years in WTF TKD.

anyway I was delighted to get back to Ireland to my FC Kickboxing.

Moss

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Moss, you're not the TKD guy I was talking to at Deadly Buzz by any chance?

I don't know of any one else from TKD that was at it, so I suppose I must be!

pma-ire

Millionaire wrote:

I found that no one could thrown a punch to save their lives, and 95% was kicks, also no one knew any sort of self defense techniques. I used to ask the instructor to show street stuff and he would say, "you know how to kick..put it somewhere!".

Anyway while the training was fun and good for fitness, and sparring hard. I personally found it useless of self defense on the street. and what annoyed me was that people there had such a false sense of security re being able to protect themselves. and not one was able to punch their way out of a wet paper bag.

this is usual with WTF TKD, and can also be seen in some ITF styles (Chang Hun).

Tim_Murphy

Moss wrote:

I don't know of any one else from TKD that was at it, so I suppose I must be!

You should start harrassing Dan Lynch and co to come down to the next one, tell him I sent ya!

Tim_Murphy

plus the blind immortal god like worship of the Korean master of the assocaition sickened me

I was at an ITF competition in Canada a years years back. Before the start we all had to line up according to rank, leaving a line up through the middle of the hall where Master Choi walked up through to go to the main table. I swear, peoples heads nearly hit the ground as they bowed when he walked past. It was weird. Most of the canadians seemed to be big into that side of TKD, couldn't have a conversation without being asked what grade you were.

dent

Kevin_rc_ie wrote:

Dent said this, which i would like to get an explanation on.


isnt tkd jsut a form of General worship.

Sorry super busy in work. I was referring to Jujutsu vs Judo. Jujutsu would be the TMA version of Judo. Judo has some bad habits due to the style of competition like rolling into a ball and trying to throw an oppenent so they land on there back. In Jujutsu you strike throw or lock any way you want and then take to ground and continue there.

Millionaire

I remember back then too, I went to university in eastern canada, and we would go to fight in WTF tournaments.

you should have seen some of the judges. the used to walk around like they had a pole up their bum, and we're some sort of mytical high priests of the korean master. it was so funny to watch.
pure BS.

The master of the schools I was in was called OH Jang and he was based in montreal. They made a god out of him, and they said he knocked out Mas Oyama once..(yeah right and santa comes down the chimney too). when I first set eyes on him, he was a weedy, scruff, little guy, with a fag hanging out of his mouth!!! and very fond of money too.

finally I moved to ottawa and was lucky to do a years kickboxing in Jean Yves Theriaults club who back then was a famous professional PKA full contact fighter.

columok

Tim,

Dan was toying with the idea of entering Deadly Buzz but decided not to in the end.

Maybe at Rennaisance though...

Colum

Roper

Mark,

If you spar with aliveness using a FUll Contact "understanding" it will look like FC kickboxing. If it resembles TKD with heavy contact then you are missing the point of fighting FC in the first place.

Yup, I know. Thats why I said this earlier:

I would also agree that it becomes less TKD and more like a generic style of Kickboxing. But theres nothing new under the sun, and we all have two legs and two arms, they all bend the same way and theres only so many ways you can use them to hit somebody else.

mark.leonard

pma-ire wrote:

Sorry Mark ! I don't see why this would be a problem ??

But I think that it would a TMA training hard and still keeping the TMA side of things. I don't see why there can't be both ??

It would be extremely pointless. I explained in my first post why Semi-Contact MA looks the way it does, if you simply up the contact all that will wind up happening is people will get hurt and they will not be using an effective fighting style for a FC Arena.

Roper - Sorry missed that part of your post!

Roper

It would be extremely pointless. I explained in my first post why Semi-Contact MA looks the way it does, if you simply up the contact all that will wind up happening is people will get hurt and they will not be using an effective fighting style for a FC Arena.

Ah, I can still recall standing sideways first time I sparred a FC kickboxer. I can't remember much after that...........

If you have two "traditional" TKD fighters fighting FC against each other than its not a problem. But once you mix it up theres the way that works and a dozen ways that don't. Pretty soon one of your TKD guys is going to get more cautious and put his hands up, stand more square and dispense with a lot of the kicks. Theres no shame in it, by doing so you're not dissing your own style, you're just adapting to a different method of combat.

pma-ire

mark.leonard wrote:

It would be extremely pointless. I explained in my first post why Semi-Contact MA looks the way it does, if you simply up the contact all that will wind up happening is people will get hurt and they will not be using an effective fighting style for a FC Arena.

Roper - Sorry missed that part of your post!

Only if your still thinking in the semi-contact frame of mind.

Look at it this way. The TKD you are talking about is a Sport form that has been picked to be semi-contact for commercial reasons. The MA itself was not designed as such and you should be able to spar any way you want.

If it looks like this or that, don't mean that is or is'int.

It will just be the base art taking part in a harder combat sport form than the norm for that style.

Most TKD is kept at the semi-contact level to keep as many peebs doing it as possible, so they won't sulk off when they get there clock cleaned in a class and hobble out the door.

dent

Isn't WTF Tae Kwon Do full contact. I know they just kick and wear body armour but I defo remember seeing people getting knocked out at one of there tournaments. I'm pretty sure you can win with a KO.

Roper

Yeah WTF is but I think what we're talking mostly about here is ITF style.

Look at it this way. The TKD you are talking about is a Sport form that has been picked to be semi-contact for commercial reasons. The MA itself was not designed as such and you should be able to spar any way you want.

I don't think there was much commercial motivation in that other than popularity. The semi-contact rules aren't exclusive to TKD by the way.

I see where you're coming from PMA but the only place you have to look is to K1 for proof. No matter where these guys got their "base art" as you put it, they mostly fight using the same techniques. Look at the great Andy Hugg, one of the greatest ever MMA fighters, he was a Karate champion, but if you look at his fights K1 you will see very little in common with semi-contact Karate.

mark.leonard

dent wrote:

Isn't WTF Tae Kwon Do full contact. I know they just kick and wear body armour but I defo remember seeing people getting knocked out at one of there tournaments. I'm pretty sure you can win with a KO.

You can yes, what is this in relation to though?

In response to PMA-Ire; What Roper said!

If you train with aliveness (a full contact premise is understood), then your stand up will eventually look like Muay thai, or KB if you are isolating kicks and punches, or boxing if you are isolating the hands. I don't think we are really disagreeing here Paul, just you are coming from a different frame of reference.

pma-ire

mark.leonard wrote:

I don't think we are really disagreeing here Paul, just you are coming from a different frame of reference.

I love you to Marky XXX

mark.leonard

Roper

Hey funboys, get a room ja!

Mikel

I have two questions for the TKD guys,

I saw a TKD competition a couple of years ago in Belfield, when the rounds started the most common approach was to close the eyes, turn the head sideways and move forward with a kind of doggy paddle movement with the hands. Apart from the more advanced guys who hopped with one knee up in the air. Is this typical of these competitions? or were these guys just beginners? It just seemed to my untrained eye that they lacked any composure to use any technique.

Also, if Tim say, was to go to his TKD club and hand the guys the rules for MMA and told them to train for those rules. What would the guys be fighting like then? Would they adapt and would what they were training look like MMA, or would it mess them up completely?

mark.leonard

Mikel wrote:

I have two questions for the TKD guys,

I saw a TKD competition a couple of years ago in Belfield, when the rounds started the most common approach was to close the eyes, turn the head sideways and move forward with a kind of doggy paddle movement with the hands. Apart from the more advanced guys who hopped with one knee up in the air. Is this typical of these competitions? or were these guys just beginners? It just seemed to my untrained eye that they lacked any composure to use any technique.

Either beginners or really crap fighters, take your pick. That skill level is not representative of the overall level in Ireland.

Mikel wrote:

Also, if Tim say, was to go to his TKD club and hand the guys the rules for MMA and told them to train for those rules. What would the guys be fighting like then? Would they adapt and would what they were training look like MMA, or would it mess them up completely?

It depends how they train it. If they trained for those rules with aliveness then it would look like regular MMA. If there was some Traditional spin on their training methods it could look like anything!
I work some MMA skills with my TKD club as part of self defence and broadening their skill sets and as we train it Alive it looks just like it would in a beginner's MMA class.

Tim_Murphy

Also, if Tim say, was to go to his TKD club and hand the guys the rules for MMA and told them to train for those rules. What would the guys be fighting like then? Would they adapt and would what they were training look like MMA, or would it mess them up completely?

The TKD BBs I used to train with were nearly all good tkd fighters. Many also did well in Kickboxing. Take people like that who are all good athletes and get them to train under pretty much any rules and they would probably adapt to those rules, how good they'd be would depend on the coaching they got, but the stand up at least would probably look like standard enough MMA standup.

That said, if the training was done by a pure TKD instructor then they would probably be taught 4 set guard passes, followed by 2 set escapes from side control etc etc and then would be graded on that much before moving on to more techniques.

Mikel

mark.leonard wrote:

Either beginners or really crap fighters, take your pick. That skill level is not representative of the overall level in Ireland.

That's fair enough, like i said i have an uneducated eye, i just thought that the idea of martial arts was to learn how to fight, and these guys couldn't. Also, i don't remember what belts the people were wearing, but most of them weren't white. I was just surprised to see so many people supposedly trained to fight with no clue how to go about it. That is not intended as an attack on tkd, cos i can't either

Now that i mention it, i used to go to belfield fairly regularly to get physio on my knee, and from the gym i watched a few different arts in action.
To be honest, having seen them, i would have my doubts about any of them.
The karate guys never seemed to do anything but punch the air in front of them, apart from one guy who had some kind of contraption which consisted of an upright piece of timber with a piece of coushined material at the top which he used to punch for ages. Oh and he and his partner one day indulged in a spot of choreographed sparring where he stepped out of the way of the oncoming punch and chopped the guy in the neck.

To be fair, i did see the kickboxers (Lau Gar i think) once and at least they looked to be doing something athletic, and they were kicking pads too, which i think is better than thin air.

The weirdest though are those kung fu guys. I mentioned the kickboxers being athletic because these guys were the most unathletic bunch i've ever seen. The students seemed like the type who were bullied at school, and the instructor was the most out of shape guy you could imagine. He was actually spherical. They seem to specialise in moving only their forearms, but with a nice wristy flourish. At one point the guy was teaching them how to punch PROPERLY. He actually said that the boxers do it wrong and that if you make a certain action with your fist, and hit the guy in the right place, you can MAKE HIS HEART STOP!!
Unfortunately, i was too far away to properly see what he was doing. Just as well too because i am not a very spiritual person and could not be trusted with this technique. Lets just say Bernard Dunne be in serious trouble if i ever got a shot at him. We would see who the great white hope of Irish boxing is now.

Having seen all these guys, i would honestly rather join a boxing club. Not nearly as spiritual of course, but i bet a whole lot more enlightening!!
Unfortunately, i only found out recently ucd has a wrestling club, shame, i would have liked to see those guys in action

dabhal

Mikel wrote:

That's fair enough, like i said i have an uneducated eye, i just thought that the idea of martial arts was to learn how to fight, and these guys couldn't. Also, i don't remember what belts the people were wearing, but most of them weren't white. I was just surprised to see so many people supposedly trained to fight with no clue how to go about it. That is not intended as an attack on tkd, cos i can't either

Now that i mention it, i used to go to belfield fairly regularly to get physio on my knee, and from the gym i watched a few different arts in action.
To be honest, having seen them, i would have my doubts about any of them.
The karate guys never seemed to do anything but punch the air in front of them, apart from one guy who had some kind of contraption which consisted of an upright piece of timber with a piece of coushined material at the top which he used to punch for ages. Oh and he and his partner one day indulged in a spot of choreographed sparring where he stepped out of the way of the oncoming punch and chopped the guy in the neck.

To be fair, i did see the kickboxers (Lau Gar i think) once and at least they looked to be doing something athletic, and they were kicking pads too, which i think is better than thin air.

The weirdest though are those kung fu guys. I mentioned the kickboxers being athletic because these guys were the most unathletic bunch i've ever seen. The students seemed like the type who were bullied at school, and the instructor was the most out of shape guy you could imagine. He was actually spherical. They seem to specialise in moving only their forearms, but with a nice wristy flourish. At one point the guy was teaching them how to punch PROPERLY. He actually said that the boxers do it wrong and that if you make a certain action with your fist, and hit the guy in the right place, you can MAKE HIS HEART STOP!!
Unfortunately, i was too far away to properly see what he was doing. Just as well too because i am not a very spiritual person and could not be trusted with this technique. Lets just say Bernard Dunne be in serious trouble if i ever got a shot at him. We would see who the great white hope of Irish boxing is now.

Having seen all these guys, i would honestly rather join a boxing club. Not nearly as spiritual of course, but i bet a whole lot more enlightening!!
Unfortunately, i only found out recently ucd has a wrestling club, shame, i would have liked to see those guys in action

Nice to see someone with a bit of cop on when it comes to matial arts.
If more of the public had these views a lot of the idiots running clubs would be out of business, I live in hope.

pma-ire

dabhal wrote:

Nice to see someone with a bit of cop on when it comes to matial arts.
If more of the public had these views a lot of the idiots running clubs would be out of business, I live in hope.

Thats why a lot of clubs don't let the public watch classes... :rolleyes:

dabhal

pma-ire wrote:

Thats why a lot of clubs don't let the public watch classes... :rolleyes:

A sure warning sign,

That would make a good thread:
What to look for and avoid in an instructor mmmmmmmm :rolleyes:

pma-ire

dabhal wrote:

A sure warning sign,

That would make a good thread:
What to look for and avoid in an instructor mmmmmmmm :rolleyes:

Do it man ! Do it

Roper

Might be a good info topic if you were to do it. Y'know, a lot of people go to the net to find out info these days, what with all this modern technology and their mobile phones.

So do it! I'll contribute!