Sinn Fein/IRA members found with list of TDs

cdebru

Rock Climber wrote:

My point was the people of Eastern Germany freed themselves from communist oppression without a German Republican Army.
It took till 1989 but it happened reasonably peacefully..

so if the people of east germany had taken up arms to free themselves that would have been wrong
it happened because the soviet union collapsed

Rock Climber wrote:

So you think that , the E.U would allow a situation up untill 2004 that people couldn't vote in NI unless they owned their own house...
IE the NI authorities would have kept that going with the acceptance of the E.U,it would have only took IRA bombing and shooting to get that?
Who are you trying to kid here?
That all other rights and entitlements of catholics in NI would have been curtailed within the E.U?
Thats a ridiculous proposition

Yes they would via democracy , when the world and the E.U forced them to grant one man one vote along with every other entitlement E.U citizens have today..

this is were your lack of understanding of the problem comes in
the six counties was created to have an in built unionist majority
the UUP had been in power for 50 years
that is why they took the 6 counties and not 9 counties to ensure a unionist majority for the forseeable future and they did everything in their power to make sure their majority would last

sceptre

cdebru wrote:

this is nonsense

Indeed. That's why I used a dumb case to illustrate the point.

Apart from the fact that correlation does not directly imply causation I believe Rock Climber has already pointed out that the ending of the section 31 ban didn't coincide with the ceasefire (I'm thinking of the one that led to the GFA but if you're thinking of the on again off again ones let us know) as it happened rather a number of years before. Separately, the idea that Sinn Fein(P) were more electable as soon as they weren't officially running an active army wing is generally accepted. There is no empirical evidence that the ceasefire is the only reason that the vote increased (partly because the increased involvement by SF in er, community welfare obviously made a substantial difference as well) but it's rather difficult to draw a connection between a rise in electoral popularity and the ending of censorship that happened a few years before and which had no effect at the ballot box or in opinion polls after the lifting of the ban but before the ceasefire.

In any case, this is a red herring. I can only assume that it's not being raised to draw the attention from the main issue of the lads in the cars with the green flags, the suspect hardware and the list of names

Johnny_the_fox

sceptre wrote:

the suspect hardware and the list of names

all the charges were dropped... in a case in the north. I can only guess it will be the same here

Rew

cdebru wrote:

i dont know what your area is so i couldn't comment but the arguement that the IRA was involved in drugs is sh*te

How do you think they funded them selfs for so long? Selling shamrock shaped cookies door to door? There linlks with organised crime fairly clear. Everything from counterfiting (DVDs, CDs, money, etc.) to drugs to bank robbery (north and south). But its understandable that criminals would be involved in organised crime...

Johnny_the_fox

Rew wrote:

How do you think they funded them selfs for so long? Selling shamrock shaped cookies door to door? There linlks with organised crime fairly clear. Everything from counterfiting (DVDs, CDs, money, etc.) to drugs to bank robbery (north and south). But its understandable that criminals would be involved in organised crime...

i beg to differ about the north ... when was the last time an ira member was charged with involvement in an organised crime.

Rew

So they do sell Shamrock cookies door to door then. Puts my mind compleatly to rest. Now im off to bed to sleep soundly.

And BTW speaking of criminal scum bags, kidnapping and disfiguring irish citizens is very patriotic and non-orgnaised crime like behaviour isn't it? But then again he wasn't a member of the IRA so thats grand...

cdebru

Rew wrote:

How do you think they funded them selfs for so long? Selling shamrock shaped cookies door to door? There linlks with organised crime fairly clear. Everything from counterfiting (DVDs, CDs, money, etc.) to drugs to bank robbery (north and south). But its understandable that criminals would be involved in organised crime...

can you show any evidence of the any active IRA member being convicted of importing or selling drugs on behalf of the IRA

cdebru

sceptre wrote:

Indeed. That's why I used a dumb case to illustrate the point.

Apart from the fact that correlation does not directly imply causation I believe Rock Climber has already pointed out that the ending of the section 31 ban didn't coincide with the ceasefire (I'm thinking of the one that led to the GFA but if you're thinking of the on again off again ones let us know) as it happened rather a number of years before. Separately, the idea that Sinn Fein(P) were more electable as soon as they weren't officially running an active army wing is generally accepted. There is no empirical evidence that the ceasefire is the only reason that the vote increased (partly because the increased involvement by SF in er, community welfare obviously made a substantial difference as well) but it's rather difficult to draw a connection between a rise in electoral popularity and the ending of censorship that happened a few years before and which had no effect at the ballot box or in opinion polls after the lifting of the ban but before the ceasefire.

In any case, this is a red herring. I can only assume that it's not being raised to draw the attention from the main issue of the lads in the cars with the green flags, the suspect hardware and the list of names

micheal d higgins ended section 31 in 1994
the ira called the ceasefire in august 1994
they both happened in the same year

it didn't happen a few years before it happened in the same year
i accept that some people find sinn fein more acceptable while the IRA is on ceasefire
however I do not accept that this is the only reason for the rise in sinn feins vote censorship played a part if it did not then why were they censored in the first place



apart from that my understanding from reading media reports is that the alleged list of names was found after the gardai raided a house a few days later not in the vehicles as you suggested

I dont know what these people were doing wether they were doing it for themselves or for the republican movement

but I do believe that if the IRA has come to the conclusion that the military conflict is over then the IRA should be disbanded and any weapons they have at their disposal should be destroyed
Untill this is done and perhaps even after it is done Sinn fein will have this hanging over it and every time anyone with curent or previous links to the republican movement is caught doing something they should not be doing the mud will be thrown at Sinn fein
If the conflict is over there is no need for an IRA

Villain

Rew wrote:

So they do sell Shamrock cookies door to door then. Puts my mind compleatly to rest. Now im off to bed to sleep soundly.

And BTW speaking of criminal scum bags, kidnapping and disfiguring irish citizens is very patriotic and non-orgnaised crime like behaviour isn't it? But then again he wasn't a member of the IRA so thats grand...

If you have evidence to show that the IRA were involved in drugs I'd love to see it, the IRA are 100% against drugs.

HaVoC

When one year later, in 1918, England decreed the conscription of Ireland's manhood to save her from the great German advance, it was around deValera that the nation rallied. His coolness and wisdom saved Ireland from a bloody defeat, and secured a moral victory. In December, at the General Election, all Nationalist Ireland declared its allegiance to the Republican ideal, and the Sinn Fein policy of abstention from Westminster was adopted.

In January, the Republican representatives assembled in Dublin and founded Dail Eireann, the Irish Constituent Assembly, Once again proclaiming the Republic . A message was sent to the nations of the world requesting the recognition of the free Irish Sate, and a national government was erected.

was bit off but thats the dail i mean dail

cdebru

yeah that was 1919 the first dail

not 1916

the second dail was 1921 some republicans regard that Dail as the last legitimate government of Ireland
but it has nothing to do with anything being discussed here

Rock Climber

cdebru wrote:

in the 26 counties or in the 32 counties

The 32 obviously, the IRA don't recognise the 6 county statelet.
They acted without the support of 98% of the people of their country.

this is were your lack of understanding of the problem comes in
the six counties was created to have an in built unionist majority
the UUP had been in power for 50 years
that is why they took the 6 counties and not 9 counties to ensure a unionist majority for the forseeable future and they did everything in their power to make sure their majority would last

I fail to understand why you are telling me common history to answer a point I made about how the IRA did more harm than good.
It's a bit like telling me Dublin is the largest city in Ireland...
It does nothing whatsioever to address my point that the inequalities enforced by a unionist government would not have survived E.U membership.
What has been achieved today could have happened decades ago with thousands of people not killed.

so if the people of east germany had taken up arms to free themselves that would have been wrong

The fact of the matter is, they didn't.
The Irish people at least 98% of them didn't either.
Bitterness, division,murder and hatrid was unnessarilly enhanced for years by the IRA and the tit for tat loyalist paramilataries.
You may have agreed with it and still do but 98% is an overwhelming lack of endorsement.

sinn fein only got involved in standing in elections in a serious way after the hunger strikes their support in the six counties rose in virtually every election they contested in the six counties from 1983 onwards

I see and after the emotive hungerstrikes campaign died down and the IRA got back to full scale bombing eg Enniskillen , warrington etc like they knew best, how many polls did SF top Versus the SDLP??
Where was their vote in the 26 counties prior to the peace process?
Down near zilch somewhere.

the british ban came into effect in 1988 only 5 years after sinn fein really started to contest elections and because of the success they were having
and most of ireland could not recieve uk channels at that time

I beg to differ all of Dublin had UK tv as had the 3 counties outside NI, where were the SF td's, how many councillors? What percentage of support in these areas?
As regards Tony O' Reilly, I didn't know he owned the Irish press and the Sunday press at the time, two of the countries more popular papers....

if it did not then why were they censored in the first place

Because apoligists for Bombing and shooting appearing on the news in person was found to be unpalletable.
I totally disagree with that censorship, they should have been let on RTÉ to face the music.In the case of the UK it was only their voices that weren't allowed anyhow.
The BBC and ITV cleverly got around the ban on interviews by showing the interview and dubbing the sound with actors voices..

HaVoC

cdebru wrote:

it could also be argued that sinn feins vote only started to rise after censorship of sinn fein ended and people could at last hear their views

Rock Climber wrote:

It says a lot that SF votes only rose after the cease fires and not during the terror campaign.

it was in reposnse to the above arguments

sceptre

cdebru wrote:

micheal d higgins ended section 31 in 1994
the ira called the ceasefire in august 1994
they both happened in the same year

Ah, you're talking about the on again off again ceasefire so.

Sand

I love that Sinn Feins only response so far - apart from the undertone of "**** you, we can do what we like!" - has been to call for the closure of the Special Crinimal Court. Obviously a play for the votes of all all their terrorist constituents - an important demographic I hear.

Theres not even been the pretence of SF acting shocked that their party members are organising punishment/vigilante gangs. Took a bribe? - Get out you scumbag, how dare you disgrace the SF party! Join a terrorist organisation that murders Gardai? - Ah gwan ya boyo!

And the sadder thing is the media doesnt seem too interested in pursuing it. Theres a few isolated pieces here and there, mostly opinion columns, and thats really it. If Fianna Fail party workers were found spying on opponents and cavorting in balaclavas with pickaxe handles and stun guns there would be uproar - Sinn Fein are held, and hold themselves, to lower standards than Fianna Fail it seems.

ReefBreak

irish1 wrote:

If you have evidence to show that the IRA were involved in drugs I'd love to see it, the IRA are 100% against drugs.

Give it up Irish1, nobody believes this, you know, we know it. And whatever about drugs, they are certainly not against putting a bomb in a pub in order to murder scores of innocent people out for a quiet drink, as your precious IRA did 20 years ago last week.

Johnny_the_fox

ReefBreak wrote:

And whatever about drugs.

Direct Action Against Drugs

cdebru

sceptre wrote:

Ah, you're talking about the on again off again ceasefire so.

that is generally accepted as the start of the ceasefire there was a brief interuption but the IRA did not go back to full scale war during that time

cdebru

Rock Climber wrote:

The 32 obviously, the IRA don't recognise the 6 county statelet.
They acted without the support of 98% of the people of their country...

i suggest you look at your maths again
besides a vote for sinn fein is not a vote for the IRA

Rock Climber wrote:

I fail to understand why you are telling me common history to answer a point I made about how the IRA did more harm than good.
It's a bit like telling me Dublin is the largest city in Ireland...
It does nothing whatsioever to address my point that the inequalities enforced by a unionist government would not have survived E.U membership.
What has been achieved today could have happened decades ago with thousands of people not killed...

because you stupidly suggested that one man one vote would overcome the problems of a state with an in built unionist majority that used its police force against the nationalist minority

Rock Climber wrote:

The fact of the matter is, they didn't.
The Irish people at least 98% of them didn't either.
Bitterness, division,murder and hatrid was unnessarilly enhanced for years by the IRA and the tit for tat loyalist paramilataries.
You may have agreed with it and still do but 98% is an overwhelming lack of endorsement...

your avoiding the question so i will ask again if the people of east germany had used arms to liberate themselves would they have been wrong
were the french resistance morally wrong

Rock Climber wrote:

I see and after the emotive hungerstrikes campaign died down and the IRA got back to full scale bombing eg Enniskillen , warrington etc like they knew best, how many polls did SF top Versus the SDLP??
Where was their vote in the 26 counties prior to the peace process?
Down near zilch somewhere...

plenty of places would you like the full list gerry adams for instance held the west belfast seat
sinn fein was the largest party on belfast city council

Rock Climber wrote:

I beg to differ all of Dublin had UK tv as had the 3 counties outside NI, where were the SF td's, how many councillors? What percentage of support in these areas?..

the country is bigger than dublin and the border region and as i have already said the uk introduced a ban on sinn fein in 1988

Rock Climber wrote:

As regards Tony O' Reilly, I didn't know he owned the Irish press and the Sunday press at the time, two of the countries more popular papers.....

no fianna fail did
and they were so popular they decided to close while they were on top

Rock Climber wrote:

Because apoligists for Bombing and shooting appearing on the news in person was found to be unpalletable.
I totally disagree with that censorship, they should have been let on RTÉ to face the music.In the case of the UK it was only their voices that weren't allowed anyhow.

sinn fein are apoligists for no one
the IRA speaks for itself

Rock Climber wrote:

The BBC and ITV cleverly got around the ban on interviews by showing the interview and dubbing the sound with actors voices..

rte was controlled by the workers party at the time they never tried to challenge censorship in fact they enforced it beyond the wording of the law
so happy to be censured they were

cdebru

ReefBreak wrote:

Give it up Irish1, nobody believes this, you know, we know it. And whatever about drugs, they are certainly not against putting a bomb in a pub in order to murder scores of innocent people out for a quiet drink, as your precious IRA did 20 years ago last week.

your trying to shift the arguement you were asked what proof you have that the IRA were involved in drugs you have not provided any

the pub bombings in england were wrong i doubt you will find anyone to seriously justify that

Nuttzz

cdebru wrote:

your trying to shift the arguement you were asked what proof you have that the IRA were involved in drugs you have not provided any

There is no proof what so ever, those 3 ira lads were in columbia to observe a peace process, it is incidental that the country is one of the worlds largest drug exporters isnt it........

Johnny_the_fox

Nuttzz wrote:

There is no proof what so ever, those 3 ira lads were in columbia to observe a peace process, it is incidental that the country is one of the worlds largest drug exporters isnt it........

a wild statement like that - that makes people from this country a terrorist.

how?
your from ireland - ireland has a number of terrorist groups therefore you are a terrorist. incidental?

holy mother of god. :rolleyes:

cdebru

Nuttzz wrote:

There is no proof what so ever, those 3 ira lads were in columbia to observe a peace process, it is incidental that the country is one of the worlds largest drug exporters isnt it........

ffs that is your evidence cop on and grow up
develope an arguement that you can support with facts not bullsh*t

besides those 3 people have been found not guilty and were never charged with anything drugs related

bonkey

cdebru wrote:

ffs that is your evidence cop on and grow up

Any more abuse like this, and you'll be banned.

jc

bonkey

Sand wrote:

And the sadder thing is the media doesnt seem too interested in pursuing it. Theres a few isolated pieces here and there, mostly opinion columns, and thats really it.

Wow. I've seen that much in the international section of the news over here!

Maybe its partly because such media criticism isn't going to bring peace any closer?

If Fianna Fail party workers were found spying on opponents and cavorting in balaclavas with pickaxe handles and stun guns there would be uproar - Sinn Fein are held, and hold themselves, to lower standards than Fianna Fail it seems.

Yup, and China is held to lower standards than the US when it comes to Human Rights. The same logic for the reasoning would apply - that even though it takes time, sometimes the carrot-before-stick approach really is the best and fastest way forward.

While we have the ever-vigilent such as yourself, Sand, there's no fear that anything will ever happen concerning Sinn Fein without the rest of the world being reminded that they're just a respectable facade on a murdering mob of
remorseless criminal scum....so at least we can take comfort in knowing that even as our politicians strive towards obtaining lasting peace in what they see as the best way possible, there will always be someone to remind us that we shouldn't be dealing with these ******s (with the accompanying implication that if that means a return to violence, then so be it, as it would only prove how right we were to refuse to deal with the scum).

jc
jc

Villain

ReefBreak wrote:

Give it up Irish1, nobody believes this, you know, we know it. And whatever about drugs, they are certainly not against putting a bomb in a pub in order to murder scores of innocent people out for a quiet drink, as your precious IRA did 20 years ago last week.

NO YOU GIVE IT UP.

FFS how do you know nobody believes me, have you been appointed the boards spokeperson on the IRA??

Evidence Reefbreak, Evidence otherwise your talking pure crap.

Nuttzz

Johnny_the_fox wrote:

a wild statement like that - that makes people from this country a terrorist.

how?
your from ireland - ireland has a number of terrorist groups therefore you are a terrorist. incidental?

holy mother of god. :rolleyes:

Werent the majority of them northern ireland based british subjects, British controlled Northern Ireland has the terrorists groups these foreign groups just try to use the Republic of Ireland as a safe haven.

Johnny_the_fox

Nuttzz wrote:

Werent the majority of them northern ireland based british subjects, British controlled Northern Ireland has the terrorists groups these foreign groups just try to use the Republic of Ireland as a safe haven.

...and then they went to columbia to get drugs. :rolleyes:

you cant be a "british subject" - unless you hold a british passport or have pledged allegiance to the queen... i very much doubt that ira members have done that.

Cork

We don't want to see a return to the mindless violence of the last 30 years.So we are willing accept pretty lower standards from SF.

But survalance of elected members of our national parliament should be questioned. The threat of violence is no excuse for treating SF with kid gloves.

Have SF even issued a statement on the survalance?

Niall Binead, also known as Niall Bennett, (aged 35), of Faughart Road, Crumlin and Kenneth Donohoe, (aged 26), of Sundale Avenue, Mountain View, Tallaght, both Dublin, were convicted at the Special Criminal Court last week after their arrest on October 10, 2004.

Binead is a key election worker for Aengus O’Snodaigh, the Sinn Féin Dublin TD.

“The last two years I have been saying that criminality and the IRA are an ongoing phenomenon,” Mr McDowell said.

“I have been asked to put up and shut up, and I think now is the time for other people to put up an explanation of what was happening on that day.”

After Binead and Donohoe were arrested, a garda search of Binead’s house found a list naming leading Irish politicians including former Justice Minister John O’Donoghue, Fine Gael’s Jim Mitchell and Des O’Malley of the Progressive Democrats.

Fears have been expressed that publicity from the convictions could disrupt tense negotiations to restart the devolved Northern Ireland Assembly.
.

This is another case in point

ionapaul

Sinn Fein will of course continue to use that excuse ad nauseum into the future. I suppose the question we need to ask ourselves is whether this policy of appeasement (yes, I said it! well, that's what it is) is worth it in the end.