Unarmed Civilans Gunned Down

Memnoch

i agree about the comments made regarding the video... doesn't really show what it says on the box. Also it does seem like the site is that of the ivory coast government.

All that being said, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to the history of the place and I haven't been following events there, or even know what was going on, maybe because it hasn't really been covered by any media here? :P

so I'll refrain from further comments on the topic. no love for "france" here from me but i'd like to point out that france doing or not doing something wrong, does not change or alter in any way what the US has done in iraq. Nor does it somehow invalidate all the arguements made by people on boards opposing the US's actions.

Maybe I can borrow the tin hat for a while?

Christian_H

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Wht is is Robert Fisk saying about "Troops & civilians never mixing..."... oh yea they doon't mix.

Histroy Proves this (excuse the use of the all proving catch phrase of the BB)

Sand

France admits Ivory Coast deaths

France has acknowledged that its troops in Ivory Coast killed about 20 people in early November during clashes with supporters of President Laurent Gbagbo.
A French defence ministry spokesman said the victims included both civilians and Ivorian soldiers.

The Ivory Coast government has put the number of Ivorians killed at 60 and condemned the French actions.

The deaths came during protests after France destroyed the Ivorian air force following attacks on its peacekeepers.

Nine French peacekeepers were killed as the loyalist army attacked rebel positions, breaking an 18-month ceasefire.

'Restrained force'

Defence ministry spokesman Jean-Francois Bureau said that French troops had acted in self-defence in the clashes, in which some 80 French troops had been injured.

The Ivorian police accused the French troops of firing without giving any warning at a crowd of protesters near a hotel in Abidjan; the French say they gave warning shots.

"There were phases of clashes that were extremely difficult and during which we maintain that our soldiers used force in a very moderate, very restrained way," Mr Bureau said.

Following anti-French protests, some 9,000 westerners were evacuated.

Former colonial power France has some 5,000 troops in Ivory Coast, along with 6,000 United Nations peacekeepers, monitoring a buffer zone between the rebel-held north and the loyalist south.

Well, looks like the French have admitted their involvement.

Only 20 dead, apparently including soldiers who can injure 80 french soldiers but not get a single kill - fairly moderate and restrained youd have to say. Perhaps the French should be asked to send soldiers to police the commemoration of Bloody Sunday.

bonkey

Sand wrote:

Well, looks like the French have admitted their involvement.

Their involvement in what?

if its "involvement in the Ivory Coast"...didn't we know that already?

if its "involvement in the deaths portrayed in the video?" Where do they say that? All I see is an admission that some people were killed...not that the people in the video were killed by French soldiers, as depicted in the video.

Only 20 dead, apparently including soldiers who can injure 80 french soldiers but not get a single kill - fairly moderate and restrained youd have to say.

No.

I'd have to say that there clearly isn't enough information in what you've just printed to be able to draw conclusions about how the troops behaved themselves (or not, as the case may be), especially considering that the versions of events from both sides clearly do not gel and neither side has been particularly forthcoming with verifiable details.

jc

Sand

if its "involvement in the deaths portrayed in the video?" Where do they say that? All I see is an admission that some people were killed...not that the people in the video were killed by French soldiers, as depicted in the video.

From article

France has acknowledged that its troops in Ivory Coast killed about 20 people in early November during clashes with supporters of President Laurent Gbagbo.

bus77

About 1.30 into the vid they start chanting U.S.A! U.S.A!, class protesting considering the French are involved.

bonkey

Sand wrote:

From article

So I'm right...its an admission that some people were killed...not that what the video depicts is in any way related.

No?

I mean...if I say that the video depicts Americans slaughtering Iraqis, and the Americans confirm that they have, in fact, killed some Iraqis....does that mean that this video also shows the US slaughtering Iraqis?

I don't think the French ever denied that there were people killed. What they denied were allegations about who they killed, how, and why, wasn't it? From what I can see, they still haven't changed their stance on this.

jc

Sand

So I'm right...its an admission that some people were killed...not that what the video depicts is in any way related.

Are you arguing there was a second incident where UN/French soldiers gunned down civillians?

We have a video and a BBC report from early November where UN/French troops are accused/seem to have killed civillians at a fairly peaceful protest.

Now we have a French Defence official admitting their troops opened fire at a protest killing 20 in the Ivory Coast in early november, civillians and soldiers so they claim - soldiers who couldnt get a single kill amongst 80 french injured. Thats some pretty good shooting on the part of the ivory coast soldiers to hit 80 but only wound them.

Now maybe its just me....but Im going out on a limb here and thinking that the video, the accusation and the admittance that their troops killed civillians at a protest are all linked somehow. Dare I say theyre all related to the same incident?

Dont worry - the irony of the UN being investigated for slaughtering civillians should protect them and France from serious investigation over their actions.

Victor

Sand wrote:

Now we have a French Defence official admitting their troops opened fire ....

" .... during clashes".

Sand wrote:

killing 20 in the Ivory Coast in early november, civillians and soldiers so they claim - soldiers who couldnt get a single kill amongst 80 french injured. Thats some pretty good shooting on the part of the ivory coast soldiers to hit 80 but only wound them.

In Fallujah the Americans claimed 2,000 insurgents killed for something like 38 American and 5 Iraqi army / national guard deaths. The 20K v 80I is not exceptional. Ask the Paras.

The Corinthian wrote:

Well... at least they didn't surrender this time...

Or change sides.

sovtek wrote:

Show us memo's that the equivalent of Donald

Was there stories yesterday (I think yesterday was Thursday) that the American general staff knew about abuses at Abu Gharib, etc. well into 2003.

bonkey

Sand wrote:

Are you arguing there was a second incident where UN/French soldiers gunned down civillians?

No, I'm arguing that there is no evidence that the atrocities alleged against them as shown in the video are not in any way supported or confirmed by this admission. I don't know how much cleared that ban be.

I mean...look...there's allegations that the US systematically abused prisoners throughout Iraq etc. There is an admission from the US that prisoners were abused. Does this make the allegations of systematic atrocity true? No, it doesn't. I'm pretty sure you argued as much at the time, so why the reluctance to apply the same logic to anyone who's not American?

We have a video and a BBC report from early November where UN/French troops are accused/seem to have killed civillians at a fairly peaceful protest.

Do we? We have a video which shows people being killed, and we have an admission that people were killed. That doesn't mean that people were killed in the manner alleged by those who produced the video, nor that the video actually depicts what happened.

Now we have a French Defence official admitting their troops opened fire at a protest killing 20 in the Ivory Coast in early november, civillians and soldiers so they claim - soldiers who couldnt get a single kill amongst 80 french injured.

The wounded vs mortality for the US campaign in Iraq, is a ratio of about 10:1, I believe. I'm only guessing, but I would imagine that if you only included combat situations (as opposed to the various bombing guerrila/terrorist attacks), that would rise significantly. 80 injured with no fatalaties....doesn't stretch my credulity, unless you're asking me to also believe that the US is fabricating most of its figures.

Thats some pretty good shooting on the part of the ivory coast soldiers to hit 80 but only wound them.

Really? Do you have any comparable incidents where poorly-equipped and usually-ill-trained under-developed-nation army/militia have done significantly better against a force from a developed-nation's army? I can't think of a single one in the modern day.

Now maybe its just me....but Im going out on a limb here and thinking that the video, the accusation and the admittance that their troops killed civillians at a protest are all linked somehow. Dare I say theyre all related to the same incident?

Sand, you can say whatever you like, but saying it doesn't make it any more probable or true.

The Ivorian President appealed to the US a few weeks ago to protect them from the French acts of terrorism, where they attacked his airforce in an unprovked manner. The French later admitted to attacking the airforce in retaliation. Does this admission mean that the Ivorian President was right and that the attack was an unprovoked acto of terrorism?

It should, using your logic, but quite how it should escapes me.

The French admission of civilian deaths sounds more like "yes, people died, but not in the manner shown or in the situation alleged".

Dont worry - the irony of the UN being investigated for slaughtering civillians should protect them and France from serious investigation over their actions.

I'd imagine that they'll come under about the same typical lack of scrutiny that the US and most other powerful nations allow themselves to come under for their actions....if thats what you mean....yes.

jc

Elfish

Redleslie2 wrote:

Bomb kills Venezuela prosecutor.
Five killed in Brazil land clash.

There's two more stories that are being conveniently ignored by the anti-american tin foil hat crazies. But I bet some wacko will still attempt to smear the CIA over the Venezuela thing at least. :rolleyes:

"some wacko will still attempt to smear the CIA over the Venezuela thing" ........ didn't you see Donnacha O'Briain's international award winning documentary about the US funded coup in Venezuela www.chavezthefilm.com?


Check it out ... RTE showed it so you may be able to get it in Extravision - then ask yourself if one has to be a "wacko" as you put it to link the CIA with dirty tricks in Venezuela.