Minister announces €200m investment in racecourses

Gurgle

From unison.ie.
Link

Wtf is the government doing using my fùcking money to sponsor an industry that benefits nobody outside itself and that rakes cash in by the €billion ?

Its not a sport, its not arts, culture or literature, its not infrastructure, its of absolutely no fùcking use to most of the country. It does way more harm to people than most drugs (ask a gambler) but some TDs seem to be enthusiasts so they get €200 million.

Of course they all treat their jobs as part-time anyways, for an €80,000 salary. Now we get to buy them nice comfy luxory boxes to watch the fùcking races from when they should by at least trying to justify their existance and salaries.

/end rant

sharkman

The lads in the Dail like to go to the races . You see !

bonkey

Gurgle wrote:

Its not a sport,

Other than this, I agree fully.

(Oh - and the link requires registration)

jc

bonkey

bonkey wrote:

(Oh - and the link requires registration)

jc

Just requires an email addy and some random stuff on a form.
For the purposes of the indo,I supplied a working email addy and the name mickey mouse and it works

I'm now reading a free reasonable alternative to the times.

Sleepy

A €200m of tax-payer's money to an industry which qualifies for massive tax breaks to allow the rich people involved in it not to pay any taxes in the first place? :eek:

Come on lads, own up, who spiked the Dail tea with acid?

PH01

Horse Racing Ireland is just as entitled to seek and get government funding for their sport like any other sporting organisation.
And attendances at horse racing events is quite high - second to none other than GAA events and more than soccer I recall (correct me if I'm wrong here). It also employs a lot of people and contributes hugely to the Irish economy - on this no other sport can compare.
So, if the GAA and other sporting organisations can get a couple of hundreds of millions, surely Horse Racing Ireland should get the same?

Sleepy

Not really PH01. Who has more grass roots involvement: the GAA or the race track. Leaving aside the organisations bigotry about the English, the GAA has contributed to the overall health and entertainment of this country for the last century.

The "Sport of Kings" is exactly that. A sport for rich people to participate in (and make serious money in) and poor people to lose money on.

Most investment in the sport is already tax deductable to a ridiculous extent and I for one am not buying that this was only decided on recently, my guess is that this was bought and paid for on July 28th.

Hairy Homer

Sleepy wrote:

Not really PH01. Who has more grass roots involvement: the GAA or the race track. Leaving aside the organisations bigotry about the English, the GAA has contributed to the overall health and entertainment of this country for the last century.

The "Sport of Kings" is exactly that. A sport for rich people to participate in (and make serious money in) and poor people to lose money on.

Most investment in the sport is already tax deductable to a ridiculous extent and I for one am not buying that this was only decided on recently, my guess is that this was bought and paid for on July 28th.

Hear Bloody Hear!!! The argument in favor of tax breaks for a particular industry is classic free-market theory: provide people with the freedom to invest more of their own money, that would otherwise disappear into the overall maw of general taxation, back into their industry and they will do so, thereby improving the overall standard of the industry, level of service to customers and will make themselves rich in the process.

Well one out of three ain't bad. All these bastards who have benefited so much from zero or next to zero rates of taxation have done is use their cash to feather their own nests and buy overseas football clubs.

I will admit to not being a devotee of horse racing. However, a good friend of mine, recently arrived from Australia is an absolute fanatic. One of his first actions on coming to live in Ireland was to pay a sacred pilgrimage to the Curragh. He was dumbfounded.

Apparently, the race track itself is magnificent: as good a test for a horse as exists anywhere in the world but the viewing and spectator facilities are Victorian. Crap. About the level of an outback race course in Oz.

Why is it so bad? Why didn't the breeders and trainers who contribute next to shag all to the states coffers divert some of the money that should have gone to build roads schools and hospitals into improving the facilities of their own industry? What is the level of the trickle-down effect in horse racing? Do the stable hands and grooms benefit proportionately from the tax breaks their bosses get? I think not.

Not to mention the bookies who have got a major tax reduction from government in recent years.

If they can't be trusted to invest some of what they've saved through tax breaks back into their own industry then they don't deserve those tax breaks in the first place.

Either up the rate of tax on stud farms and horse sales or else desist from giving them cash handouts collected from the rest of us.

The government can give them one or the other. Not both.

And if the likes of JP McManus and John Magnier threaten to take their business elsewhere, let 'em go. They're no bloody loss.

daveirl

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Capt'n Midnight

Don't forget all the economic activity generated by betting on horse races and all the Tax collected by it, which we Taxpayers would otherwise have to pay ourselves :rolleyes:

On a slightly different note, it's a great way to launder money, bet dodgy money on a horse and some of the time you win nice clean money.

cdebru

daveirl wrote:

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i never realised that the irfu/fai were that stuck that they would fight for 125euro poor bastards

Gurgle

daveirl wrote:

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Ex-bloody-actly!
The country has millions of people who are interested in football, as a weekly event, compared to a couple of trips to the races a year. But still there is only barely a league here so all the support (and money) goes to English premiership clubs.

A couple of hundred million spent on football would be a lot more benefit to a lot more people than sponsoring horse racing - A thorougly established and extremely profitable activity.

it could even have been spent on hospital & stuff

daveirl wrote:

Did you know the tax payer stumps up the prize money for a load of races!!

No, I didn't.
It does explain where road tax goes.

A couple of hundred million spent on football would be a lot more benefit to a lot more people than sponsoring horse racing - A thorougly established and extremely profitable activity.

Actually I'd prefer to see that money being directed at actual Irish games, like Hurling & gaelic Football. Both areas that need more cash thrown at them. Irish Soccer is a joke, and will remain so while England is just across the water.

As for Horse racing itself, between stud farming and actual betting, there should be more than enough money to upgrade existing facilities. Its amazing the amount of money that flows just through these sections...

Gurgle

Deleted User wrote:

Actually I'd prefer to see that money being directed at actual Irish games, like Hurling & gaelic Football. Both areas that need more cash thrown at them. Irish Soccer is a joke, and will remain so while England is just across the water.

GAA already gets lots of funding and is a very very wealthy organization. Having said that, for the sheer numbers of people who would benefit it would be better spent there than on the horsies. I suggested soccer as its big world-wide and with a good kickstart the Irish premiership could actually make it onto the world stage.

Deleted User wrote:

As for Horse racing itself, between stud farming and actual betting, there should be more than enough money to upgrade existing facilities. Its amazing the amount of money that flows just through these sections...

... and disappears, invisible to the revenue commissioner, into a relatively small number of back pockets.

daveirl

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Healio

From HRI.ie

MINISTER HERALDS NEW ERA FOR RACECOURSE DEVELOPMENT
Monday 22nd November

€200 million Capital Development Programme for Irish Racecourses.

Monday, 22 November, 2004: The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Mr. John O’Donoghue TD, today announced a new Racecourse Capital Development Fund. The programme will see Horse Racing Ireland (HRI) provide a matching fund for Irish racecourses to substantially upgrade their facilities over the next five years.

Minister O’Donoghue stated: “Horse racing is a hugely popular sport in Ireland, with over 1.4 million people attending races annually. To support this growth in popularity, we need to provide the very best facilities at all racecourses. Through this fund a total of €200 million will be invested, with Horse Racing Ireland providing €110 million in grant aid and the balance of €90 million to be provided by the racecourses”.

Commenting on the Minister’s remarks, HRI Chairman Denis Brosnan said: “This new fund is double the size of the first Racecourse Capital Development Fund. It is essential that we encourage all racecourses to develop high quality facilities. The sporting public enjoys first class facilities at Croke Park and shortly will have the same standard at Lansdowne Road. We must plan to match these standards at Irish racecourses.”
“The Indecon Report on the horse racing industry quantified the economic value for 2003 of the 300 plus race meetings held that year. Consumer expenditure was over €110 million and in excess of €23 million was taken in gate receipts, with €227 million generated by on-course betting turnover. This represents a significant contribution to local employment and the economy, which will further increase under the investment from the capital development programme.”

Brian Kavanagh, Chief Executive of HRI continued: “In its Strategic Plan 2003 – 2007, Horse Racing Ireland planned the continued improvement of racecourse facilities for race-goers, professionals and horses through the provision of capital grant aid. A model has now been established whereby a greater proportion of the income generated at race meetings goes directly to the courses. I am delighted to see that this model has improved the finances of the courses and leads to greater confidence and the means to plan for their own future. HRI will actively assist them at all stages of that work’’.

HRI’s grant aid of €110 million has been provisionally allocated as follows:

• Premier racecourses: Up to €80 million
(Curragh, Fairyhouse, Galway, Leopardstown and Punchestown)

• Category 1 tracks: Up to €10 million
(Cork, Gowran, Limerick, Listowel, Naas and Navan)

• Category 2 tracks: Up to €10 million
(Ballinrobe, Bellewstown, Clonmel, Kilbeggan, Killarney, Laytown, Roscommon, Sligo, Thurles, Tipperary, Tralee, Tramore and Wexford)

• All weather track: €10 million
(Dundalk under consideration)

At its meeting on Monday November 15th, the Board of HRI approved grant aid of 55% for projects costing €10.6 million at Navan (€8.1 million) and Ballinrobe (€2.5 million). These projects will see significant upgrades of facilities at both racecourses including new weighrooms, bars / restaurants and public facilities and a new stableyard at Navan and will represent the first drawdown on the Capital Development Fund being launched today.

In conclusion, Jerry Desmond Chairman of the Association of Irish Racecourses (AIR) stated: “HRI have been able to set out this ambitious plan for the future of Irish racing primarily because the Minister has, through the provisions of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund, given the basis for proper long- term planning. The result will be a transformation of Irish racecourses over the next five years, with employment growth and wealth generation spread throughout the regions”.

Better described than unison.

Healio

daveirl wrote:

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would it not make sense to to fund the least popular so as to gain more from it??

PH01 wrote:

It also employs a lot of people and contributes hugely to the Irish economy - on this no other sport can compare. surely Horse Racing Ireland should get the same?

Totally true

daveirl wrote:

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Examples please!

daveirl wrote:

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what are ye ****e'in on about there, the bookies tax rate has gone up over the last few years.

Healio

a little bit more from the guys at unison:

SURPRISED Irish racing officials yesterday had to break off from a good-news announcement for horse racing and field questions about the Aga Khan's personal life.

Brian Kavanagh, chief executive with Horse Racing Ireland (HRI), had all the necessary figures relating to the €200 million investment in Irish racecourses at his fingertips.

However, he was not privy to the details of the divorce settlement between His Highness and his wife, the Begum - an issue that was raised at the press conference.

The couple have been living apart and estimates are that the 67-year-old Aga Khan could lose half of his current assets and one-third of future earnings in a Ray Parlour-type settlement.

His estranged wife has employed the same legal team as the former wife of the ex-Arsenal and current Middlesbrough midfielder who has made history with the extent of her divorce court win.

It is estimated that the Bregum may be enitled to an initial €770m and somebody felt that this might put The Curragh refurbishment, part-funded by His Highness, in jeopardy.

It was left to Pierce Molony, the Senior Steward of the Turf Club who own The Curragh, to reassure everyone that the Aga Khan had already honoured his multi-million commitment to the scheme.

It seemed that someone was fretting unneccessarily. As spiritual leader of the 20 million-strong Ismaili Muslim community, the Aga Khan gets 12.5 per cent of the earnings of every one of his followers. Estimates of his annual take vary between €77m and €230m.

HRI were announcing a €200m capital development programme for Irish racecourses.

The actual money had been announced at Listowel in September. The news on this occasion was the details of exactly who was getting the money.

Of the €200m spend, €110m will be provided by HRI and the courses will come up with the €90m balance.

The allocation was welcomed by Jerry Desmond of the Association of Irish Racecourses (AIR) who pointed out that the owners of the country's racecourses were sitting on land worth over €1.5 billion and they needed HRI/Government aid and encouragement to resist selling up.

Of the €110m, up to €80m will go to the 'premier' racecourses at The Curragh, Fairyhouse, Galway, Leopardstown and Punchestown.

Up to €10m will go to 'category one' tracks at Cork, Gowran Park, Limerick, Listowel, Naas and Navan. The same amount will go to the 'category two' tracks at Ballinrobe, Bellewstown, Clonmel, Kilbeggan, Killarney, Laytown, Roscommon, Sligo, Thurles, Tipperary, Tralee, Tramore and Wexford. Another €10m has been put aside for an all-weather track with "Dundalk under consideration".

There was no mention of the two Ulster tracks, presumably because HRI funding there is being legally challenged by sports promoter Paddy Owens.

Quick off the mark have been Navan and Ballinrobe. They have already submitted plans acceptable to HRI and will get €8.1m and €2.5m respectively.

New weighrooms, bars/restaurants and, in the case of Navan a much-needed stableyard, will be built.

sceptre

Deleted User wrote:

actual Irish games, like Hurling & gaelic Football

Wasn't the game with the big ball and no stick introduced by those not very Irish Norman boys?

Extending your logic we should ignore Hurling because Gaelic Football is more popular, and surely it makes more sense just to fund the most popular. Ever think we could fund Irish Soccer to the point where people don't have that much interest in English football?

Actually I don't. I don't think Ireland has the money to compete with the English Soccer leagues. There too established. It would take too much investment.

RainyDay

There is some justification for Govt support for GAA/IRFU/FAI and other sports that have substantial involvement for young people. In simple terms, if a young guy/girl is playing a match, he/she is less likely to be robbing cars or mobile phones at the same time.

There is no justification for taxpayers money to be used to fund extensions to racecourses.

Healio

Of the €200m spend, €110m will be provided by HRI and the courses will come up with the €90m balance.

The allocation was welcomed by Jerry Desmond of the Association of Irish Racecourses (AIR) who pointed out that the owners of the country's racecourses were sitting on land worth over €1.5 billion and they needed HRI/Government aid and encouragement to resist selling up.

Ever hear of the galway races? no how much money that brings to galways economy? Tralee have a festival (well just about), Killarney have two, Listowel is a week long, punchestown, if these places were to stay as shoddy as they are no one would go to the races. The upgrades mean the racecourses can bring more people to their neck of the woods, to see racing at the same time as spending money in the community, the better the tracks are, the more racing can be held which in turn makes more money, for (i) the locals and (ii) the government through tax received from the tote and bookmakers. on course betting turnover was €230million, and consumer expeniture was €110 with gate receipts in excess of €23million, so you see the horse racing industry provides more to the government than your gaa/fai and in turn deserves the bit of money they are getting. and just to add it isnt the whole amount coming out of taxpayers pockets.

wiw4

RainyDay wrote:

There is no justification for taxpayers money to be used to fund extensions to racecourses.

And there is justification for taxpayers money to be used to fund extensions to croke park and lansdowne??? :rolleyes:

RainyDay

Healio wrote:

Ever hear of the galway races? no how much money that brings to galways economy? Tralee have a festival (well just about), Killarney have two, Listowel is a week long, punchestown, if these places were to stay as shoddy as they are no one would go to the races.

You are contradicting yourself. If these places are so shoddy and unpopular, then how come the Galway races brings so much money to the economy today (without the need for state subsidies)?

You also assume that the infrastructure upgrades won't happen without the state subsidies. If these events are so hugely popular, then the course owners will have no problem finding investors/banks willing to fund the upgrades and get a return on their money.

There is no reason for the state to subside such developments. Using your logic, the state should be subsidising the next Rod Stewart concert at the Point, as this brings loads of business into Dublin.

wiw4 wrote:

And there is justification for taxpayers money to be used to fund extensions to croke park and lansdowne??? :rolleyes:

Read my post. That's not what I said. What I said was 'There is some justification for Govt support for GAA/IRFU/FAI and other sports that have substantial involvement for young people'. I understand that there are also valid arguements against this. But that's not the real issue for this thread. Let's stick to the horseys for this one.

Healio

What i am getting at here is, why cant they all be like the galway races? Because they cant develop their courses and offer the prizemoney.

And you refer to taxpayers money as if everyone is paying for it, but unless your in the bookies paying your 2% off-course duty on every euro, then you arent contributing to it!

RainyDay

Healio wrote:

What i am getting at here is, why cant they all be like the galway races? Because they cant develop their courses and offer the prizemoney.

This makes no sense. Why can't the Warwick Hotel in Galway be like the Point Theatre in Dublin? Why can't Mrs Brown's B&B be like the Conrad Hotel? Should the state subsidise all these businesses too to allow them to upgrade their facilities and take in more revenue?

Healio wrote:

And you refer to taxpayers money as if everyone is paying for it, but unless your in the bookies paying your 2% off-course duty on every euro, then you arent contributing to it!

Believe me, I'm contributing by paying my taxes. Betting tax is a drop in the ocean of state revenue, and doesn't justify large Govt expenditures on infrastructure on private racecourses.

Healio

RainyDay wrote:

This makes no sense. Why can't the Warwick Hotel in Galway be like the Point Theatre in Dublin? Why can't Mrs Brown's B&B be like the Conrad Hotel? Should the state subsidise all these businesses too to allow them to upgrade their facilities and take in more revenue?

If places like sligo, dundalk, ballinrobe had better facilities, and could offer more prizemoney, then more people would attend and bet more money, im not saying to fund the local businesses, but fund the courses so people will trek out to see good racing.

RainyDay wrote:

large Govt expenditures on infrastructure on private racecourses.

read the hri development plan 2003-2007 and you'll see where the funding is coming from.

Sparks

Earthman wrote:

I'm now reading a free reasonable alternative to the times.

*cough*Berlusconi*cough*Carravagio*cough*

Sparks

And what the whole problem comes down to here, is the distribution of money to sports groups being done through Ministers instead of through the Irish Sports Council. The ISC does distribute the operational funds, but things like the Sports Capital Grants are handled by the Department of Sport. Reforming that would at least make the motivation for the distribution of funds more obvious and well-documented.

RainyDay

Healio wrote:

If places like sligo, dundalk, ballinrobe had better facilities, and could offer more prizemoney, then more people would attend and bet more money, im not saying to fund the local businesses, but fund the courses so people will trek out to see good racing.

You are missing the point (presumably deliberately). The course IS a local business. It is a private enterprise, which should seek its own investments privately, without draining the public purse. Tell me, what is the fundamental economic or strategic difference between Ballybrit racecourse, and the Warwick Hotel, or Mrs Browns B&B. This can all bring in some extra tax revenue if they expand, but we don't see the need for the state to fund half of their expansion.

If people want to 'trek out to see good racing', they must be prepared to pay for it themselves, and not expect a public subsidy.

Sleepy

The question at hand is who ultimately benefits from this grant. The answer is the rich that own and run race-tracks and race-horses. Sure, it could be argued that there's a trickle down effect to others in the industry, but it would be incorrect. How will these budgets benefit stable lads etc? It won't, their wages won't increase in accordance with the profits of the owners, thus further widening the poverty gap in Ireland.

That's what's the fundamental problem with this kind of grant: it benefits only the richest segments of the community.