Institute of Education and Gay Friendly Schools

WexCan

As a matter of interest, is there anyone here in the Institue of Education in Dublin?

I had to move up to the Institute cos my old school was ridiculously homophobic - students and staff. Just wondering what any school students here think of their schools?

Chris

Stark

I liked my secondary, didn't notice much homophobia there either. (Turned out half the people I hung around with in secondary school were gay actually ).

DoctorEdgeWild

I went to Mount Temple comp on the Malahide Road and found it to be very tolerant. As a straight bloke, I probably wouldn't know any gay guys or girls if I hadn't gone there. I think it makes all the difference having a diverse group of friends. Also, as a non denominational school its a nice mix of religions too.

segadreamcast

Very open-minded and forward-thinking school I have - I consider myself lucky.

ixoy

I went to a Christian Brothers Schoo. As a matter of fact, it's the school that forced Bryan McFadden to withdraw his latest video - hah!

Anyway... It being an all boys school probably wasn't always the most open minded. There was one guy who was quite camp and got a hard time of it, eventually leaving. He did have a bit of an attitude but that never accounted for his treatment.
Having said that, on the other end, there was another guy who also turned out to be gay to noone's surprise and he was one of the year's favourites. I think then it ended up being largely dependent on how well you integrated with your class in ours - if you were defensive, they went for you whereas if you could laugh with them, they didn't give a crap (that and, maybe, some streaming that took place).
As to me... well I was on an Egyptian river at the time....

Oh and, oddly enough, a couple of my friends from there turned out to be gay. Birds of a feather, etc...

Would be nice to think schools are that bit more open these days (I left in '97) and pupils more accepting, no matter what environment they're in. Hurrah for progression.

DBS2004

Hey i went to the institute. It was a great school and i loved every minute of it. they people are so nice and they are very understanding!

boomdogman

I went to an all boys school (St kieran's, Kilkenny)shortly after the second last ice age and that was a time when there were NO gay people. My best friend in first year turned out to be gay, as did another guy I never got on with(tho I have since had affairs with both his brothers, how odd). There was a guy the year ahead of us who was hyper camp and he got a bad time.

I also got to shag the biggest toughest guy in the place when we were in our early twenties, think walking Tom Of Finland drawing in an army uniform(now much later think Zeppelin with gray hair in his goatee.Oh to have died young!)which explained why a couple of times the bullies got busted for picking on the overtly(well as overt as it got) gays.

I hope its easier to be sixteen and gay now? I tried to kill myself a few times,survival due to incompetence.

segadreamcast

"survival due to incompetence."

That's how Dubya gets by too - and he isn't doing too bad for himself !

Yeah it is - there are still hardships, but it would be incredibly naive and self-absorbed to say that it is anything near what you must have experienced. I'm so thankful for being born into this society...

darkened_corner

I went to a small all-boys private school in Rathfarnham (Rockbrook Park School - anyone ever hear of it?)

Anyways, this place was run by Opus Dei. Which turned out to be a lovely experience for me, especially as the principal seemed to take an instant dislike to me. I made the mistake of coming out near the end of Fifth Year - yeah, I know, stupid thing to do in an all-boys school, but keeping it quiet was driving me slowly up the wall. Word got back to the principal by the start of Sixth Year. I got called into his office and was basically told if I didn't shut up about my sexuality, then (quote) "You can go somewhere else where they don't mind that sort of thing."

Which made me feel REALLY special. Especially coming on top of my class either being complete (insert expletive)s about it - that is, the ones who believed me. Most put it down to me looking for attention.

But I stuck it through to the Leaving there, and quite proud of myself I am for it...

StupidLikeAFox

In my school (which is pretty homophobic) gay ppl were a non issue up until this year when there was two or three guys in 4th year came out, it was long suspected and that but they finally announced it. Now im pretty sure its illegal, but now theyre not allowed get changed in the same dressing rooms as their fellow classmates. This is how our school deals with this ''problem''!

Freaky Angelo

WexCan wrote:

As a matter of interest, is there anyone here in the Institue of Education in Dublin?

I had to move up to the Institute cos my old school was ridiculously homophobic - students and staff. Just wondering what any school students here think of their schools?

Chris

Yup I'm in 6th form right now. My old school was smothering me, I couldn't handle it, I was a freak that didn't fit in, I hated team sports, loathed and detested the people everyone thought was great - oh and couldn't help but check out the guys.

Anyway I moved out after the school psychologist decided I needed to (I was a might suicidal - I write poetry and yes it shows:rolleyes: ) anyway I got out and to some friends I came out

Turns out one of my friends is bi and she's okay, she's dating a bi guy...I think we can guess what that'll lead to anyway...

My old school hated the idea of gays, Christian Brothers schools - what can ya do? They ignored bullying, didn't care about the students, barely understood their charges and had as much interest int heir jobs as a woodpecker has in a steel dinet set

God I hated that place

shay_562

I went to a small all-boys private school in Rathfarnham (Rockbrook Park School - anyone ever hear of it?)

Yeah, I know it - it's about 5 minutes up the road from where I live. And given some of the twats I've known who went there, I'm really not surprised you got a hard time.

I went to a small mixed school in Dublin (20 in my leaving cert year), and even though most of the people in my class were cool about it, enough weren't that I still wasn't properly out - going through all that on top of everything else you have to deal with at school just seemed like way too much hassle.

lifesucks

Im in LC at the moment. I've just came out to family and close friends in the past few weeks. I'm cant wait to tell everyone in school just to see what everyone's reactions like.

I fell that it will be better to come out in school rather than in college because I will be able to see peoples reations to me better and I will have a clear picture of who really is my friend and who isnt. I dont wanna to be living away from them all and trying to figure out who still likes me or not. The last openly gay fella left the school last year so I think its about time i stepped into his shoes!!

I thinks its gonna be kinda stange beause a lot of people have an image of me being a total womaniser/stud/manwhore/sleize bag!!!! How wrong they alll are!

My life is totally freaking me out at the moment. I fell like im living a double life. Sometimes im siting im sitting in school i just stat to think if only people around me knew what/who i did at the weekend. I have a lota really close friends who have no idea what im really like. I dont trust anyone now because i think i can keep someting like that from my closest friends what could they be keeping from me?

Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant there and i went off topic a good bit but i just needed to get it off my chest.

Stark

Congratulations, that's extremely brave of you. But be a bit careful when coming out at school, test the waters with people you trust first. Things have moved on in recent years I heard, but you could still get some negative reactions and you'll have enough stress already with your Leaving Cert.

College tends to be more liberal than secondary school and whatever college you go to should have an LGBT soc for you to hang out with.

lifesucks

I've already tested the water with a few of my close friends and they were all ok! Even the homphobic ones (well at least the ones who appeared to be). If anybody has a bad reation **** them!! Im a fairly popular guy so I couldnt care less about what a few imature, ignorant dicks think!

Freaky Angelo

lifesucks wrote:

Im in LC at the moment. I've just came out to family and close friends in the past few weeks. I'm cant wait to tell everyone in school just to see what everyone's reactions like.

I fell that it will be better to come out in school rather than in college because I will be able to see peoples reations to me better and I will have a clear picture of who really is my friend and who isnt. I dont wanna to be living away from them all and trying to figure out who still likes me or not. The last openly gay fella left the school last year so I think its about time i stepped into his shoes!!

I thinks its gonna be kinda stange beause a lot of people have an image of me being a total womaniser/stud/manwhore/sleize bag!!!! How wrong they alll are!

My life is totally freaking me out at the moment. I fell like im living a double life. Sometimes im siting im sitting in school i just stat to think if only people around me knew what/who i did at the weekend. I have a lota really close friends who have no idea what im really like. I dont trust anyone now because i think i can keep someting like that from my closest friends what could they be keeping from me?

Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant there and i went off topic a good bit but i just needed to get it off my chest.

BE VERY CAREFUL!!! Seriously people react violently and I don't think you can do the LC in a coma! But it's very brave, you're coming out, just don't do it for reactions do it for you (What am I the Christmas Special of 7th heave? Sheesh!)

Anyway I came out to two friends in one go: the male suddenly had to go for a bus...the female said she was bi... I've lost contact with one but gotten (terrifyingly) close to the other who is like a sister to me.

Thing is I've never had a serious relationship so there's no reason anyone'd catch me with a guy...downside - I'm tensed all through school with cute guys in nearly every class!!!! ARGH:eek:

I didn't come out, my parents know but it's never said and some people know because I don't HIDE it I joke about it and people take it as they want but I don't paint a rainbow on my forehead, limpen my wrist and don a pink silk shirt - that's not me.

Basically what I'm saying is: be yourself and the double life goes away, don't hide it but don't go out of your way to make it known ("I'm the only gay in this here little vill-ah-ge" - for example).

Besides at least you're getting some I have three problems: 1. I'm barely ever able to find a decent gay guy at school since I don't go out much (and I tend to crush on straight guys) 2. I'm never on the gay club scene I'm just busy and it was only two summers ago I got to grips with (*cough*a guy*cough*) my sexuality and 3. I'm a biter and scratcher (I don't bite anywhere painful...well - too painful).

You think you have problems? No one expected me to be so...eh...fighty let alone into guys! Actuall - you have the image of being very hetrosexual everyone thought I was asexual!!

I wonder which shocked them most concerning my sexuality:

That I was aimed at boys or that I had one

Right what was my point again...

Rozie

The Irish school system is a joke. It's a bunch of power hungry loons trying to prepare us for a vicious rat race.

They never bother going after real bullies. Like online, they always go after the people who react. They know very well too.

Stark

I don't know what school you went to but I have to completely disagree with that. My experience with teachers throughout secondary school was that the vast majority of them genuinely cared about their students and were totally giving of themselves in furthering our education. There will always be a few bad apples, but that's just true of any walk of life.

lifesucks

Thanks for the advice!

Don't worry im not doing it for the reations, i doing it for myself really.

I try and drop as many hints as possible to people but they never seem to cop! I always talk about being gay but everyone always think im messing. I had a full blown conversation with one friend in front of a group of people about how easy it was to pull in gay bars and started telling them about a person i had been with that weekend.... no one took me serious! I constanly comment on cute guys that pass and i always talk about people i plan on seducing!! My friends are dimwits! I even kissed a guy in front of all of them and they just thought it was funny and gave out about him shift-raping me!

As for the violence there has never been any problems before in the school!

I know what you mean about havin nice boys in your class. Half my classes has only lads in them!! (PE has to be the worst!!) Im pratically in an all boys school.

Cantab.

I went to an all boys school (St. Paul's, Dublin 5) and had a great time. There were no distractions from girls and we played lots of sport. Academic success was the primary focus built on tradition and vincentian values.

I went to TCD to do engineering (95% men!) and joined a mens sports club. And I'm not gay and still go to Mass every sunday.

Do people think that if the Institute for Education got a name as being a 'gay school', that revenues would seriously drop given number of parents who would refuse to allow their children be educated in such an environment? I know I certainly wouldn't allow any children of mine be educated in such an institute devoid of any Catholic moral teaching. Of course this is my perspective on education and that of a lot of my friends/family.

Agent Smith

ColHol wrote:

In my school (which is pretty homophobic) gay ppl were a non issue up until this year when there was two or three guys in 4th year came out, it was long suspected and that but they finally announced it. Now im pretty sure its illegal, but now theyre not allowed get changed in the same dressing rooms as their fellow classmates. This is how our school deals with this ''problem''!

how do they feel about this? ( serriously)

and yes it is illegal. Very illegal, and the school should know better....

tribulus

ixoy wrote:

I went to a Christian Brothers Schoo. As a matter of fact, it's the school that forced Bryan McFadden to withdraw his latest video - hah!


Would be nice to think schools are that bit more open these days (I left in '97) and pupils more accepting, no matter what environment they're in. Hurrah for progression.

i went there too;)

Can't say its changed that much. No discrimantion by staff at all (some of the things mentioned here are a disgrace, making people change in different rooms ffs)

There was a group of four lads who got stick for being gay, its sad to see that because there sound blokes. Turns out two of them actually were and the first thing they did when they went to college was come out!!!

I think individually guys will generally be fine with classmates being gay, but then the group macho mentality comes out and the slagging starts.

wheresthebeef

Cantab. wrote:

I went to an all boys school (St. Paul's, Dublin 5) and had a great time. There were no distractions from girls and we played lots of sport. Academic success was the primary focus built on tradition and vincentian values.

I went to TCD to do engineering (95% men!) and joined a mens sports club. And I'm not gay and still go to Mass every sunday.

Do people think that if the Institute for Education got a name as being a 'gay school', that revenues would seriously drop given number of parents who would refuse to allow their children be educated in such an environment? I know I certainly wouldn't allow any children of mine be educated in such an institute devoid of any Catholic moral teaching. Of course this is my perspective on education and that of a lot of my friends/family.

No, i dont think revenues would drop. You seem to be a bit out of touch with modern society Cantab. In this society, we generally try to embrace everyone as human beings deserving of respect and dignity. Unlike you, who seem to be insistent in your biggotry. Do you think the institute of education should offer classes in "how not to be gay"???? We all know that gayness is a learned behavious. I could change back to being straight if i wanted to, with enough prayer.

Cantab, your a leech on these forums. You hop around from forum to forum spreading your vile catholic dogma especially with reference to homosexuality. Go away!

Cantab.

wheresthebeef wrote:

No, i dont think revenues would drop. You seem to be a bit out of touch with modern society Cantab. In this society, we generally try to embrace everyone as human beings deserving of respect and dignity. Unlike you, who seem to be insistent in your biggotry. Do you think the institute of education should offer classes in "how not to be gay"???? We all know that gayness is a learned behavious. I could change back to being straight if i wanted to, with enough prayer.

Cantab, your a leech on these forums. You hop around from forum to forum spreading your vile catholic dogma especially with reference to homosexuality. Go away!

So, if by some miracle of God you had children of your own, you'd refuse to send them to a Catholic school? Isn't this just as bigoted?

Last time I checked, citizens of this country were entitled to follow whatever religion they chose. Just like you have chosen your own lifestyle. And don't try and force me to regard your lifestyle as being right, the same way I don't force you to go to Mass on a Sunday.

Cantab.

shay_562 wrote:

There are others who can rant far more eloquently and far more effectively than me about this, but in short - unlike religion, sexuality isn't a "lifestyle choice", and suggesting otherwise displays and ignorance that would be pitiable if it weren't so harmful.

So gayness is not a lifestyle choice? It's a big debate for sure. If, what you are saying is that gayness is inherent within the human brain, it's an equally valid proposition.

I agree, religion certainly isn't a "lifestyle choice". From what I gathered from many gay friends of mine, their gayness was most certainly a "lifestyle choice" (but perhaps not all gays agree on this).

Anyway, there are those that would say that religion and a belief in God is also inherent within the human mind.

shay_562 wrote:

The worst part is that you actually believe this.

Who then does the Catholic Church hate?

shay_562 wrote:

In an effort to stay remotely on-topic: to reply to the other part of Cantab's post, yes, I'd avoid sending my kids to a Catholic school on the grounds that I think religious education should be taken care of by the individual family, not by a body that's supposed to be teaching kids about important stuff like reading and maths, and instead wastes the better part of two years of primary school on communions and confirmations.

The implication of such a non-religious education program is that there are no absolute truths and moral relativism prevails. This is unacceptable to most faiths of this world including Catholics, Islamists, Jews, etc., etc. So who exactly will decide what constitutes religious guidance and what does not?

shay_562 wrote:

And no, I don't think that's bigoted - opting to send children to one school over another on the grounds that one will give them a better education is a fairly sensible choice, based on which course of action is best for the child as opposed to any kind of intolerance.

At the end of the day, it's really up to the parents to decide in what ethos they want their children educated.

shay_562

If, what you are saying is that gayness is inherent within the human brain, it's an equally valid proposition...From what I gathered from many gay friends of mine, their gayness was most certainly a "lifestyle choice" (but perhaps not all gays agree on this)...Anyway, there are those that would say that religion and a belief in God is also inherent within the human mind.

Homosexuality occurs throughout nature, suggesting that it's a part of nature as opposed to anything people choose for themselves. I have yet to hear of animal religions.

Who then does the Catholic Church hate?

Historically, I could mention the Inquisition, the pogroms and their tacit support of the Holocaust. More recently, discrimination against women and homosexuals are the main ones - in the case of the latter, as wheresthebeef already said, they are essentially guilty of incitement to hatred.

The implication of such a non-religious education program is that there are no absolute truths and moral relativism prevails. This is unacceptable to most faiths of this world including Catholics, Islamists, Jews, etc., etc. So who exactly will decide what constitutes religious guidance and what does not?

I'm not sure what your point is here, or what you're trying to say. Morality doesn't have to be rooted in religion - in fact, I'd say it's better that you do good things simply because they are good things, rather than doing it because the magic pixies living in the sky will smite you otherwise.

At the end of the day, it's really up to the parents to decide in what ethos they want their children educated.

I completely agree, and as such, I don't think it's "bigoted" for someone to say they wouldn't send their kids to a Catholic school.

Cantab.

shay_562 wrote:

Homosexuality occurs throughout nature, suggesting that it's a part of nature as opposed to anything people choose for themselves. I have yet to hear of animal religions.

Ok, I think the argument is getting a little confused here. It was wrong to draw paralells between a sexual orientation and someone's religion. They're both completely different things! Anyway, as long as gays don't interfere in the education of Catholics (what possible interest would they have anyway?!), then Catholics won't interfere in the desire of two men to embrace each other. It's called a free and tolerant democracy. We do, however, pray for all men.

shay_562 wrote:

Historically, I could mention the Inquisition, the pogroms and their tacit support of the Holocaust. More recently, discrimination against women and homosexuals are the main ones - in the case of the latter, as wheresthebeef already said, they are essentially guilty of incitement to hatred.

And homosexuals were never part of this hatred? If, 10% of the population are homosexual? Anyway the Church is made up of but men. Great Popes gone by have sinned, most notably Pope Alexander VI who had several illegitimate children before and during his reign and was the epitome of nepotism, bribery, deceit, debauchery and anything else you can imagine! Now although even one bad Pope is one too many, Jesus himself picked 12 imperfect sinners to be his apostles. So according to Catholicism, an immoral Pope (you'll find several in Church history) can sin like any man and will answer to God for his evil deeds. However, as supreme head of the Church, the Pope retains his infallibility on matters of faith and morals whilst Pope. Despite all this, the main objective is to preserve the integrity of Catholic faith for all members at all times and in all places.

shay_562 wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is here, or what you're trying to say. Morality doesn't have to be rooted in religion - in fact, I'd say it's better that you do good things simply because they are good things, rather than doing it because the magic pixies living in the sky will smite you otherwise.

Basically what I'm trying to say on here is that no person, homosexual, feminist, marxist, Fine Gael, liberal should have the right to tell me, as a parent, that someone does not have the right to send their children to a Catholic/Muslim/Protestant school because their moral framework doesn't fit into that of the 'liberal consensus' - now that would be a truely dangerous step towards a Brave New World. Phrases like 'vile catholic' from the likes of wheresthebeef really don't do anything for the plight of gays and their constant hissy-fitting on their never-ending quest of defining themselves.

shay_562 wrote:

I completely agree, and as such, I don't think it's "bigoted" for someone to say they wouldn't send their kids to a Catholic school.

I'm glad to hear that's how you think.

ixoy

Cantab. wrote:

Anyway, as long as gays don't interfere in the education of Catholics (what possible interest would they have anyway?!), then Catholics won't interfere in the desire of two men to embrace each other.

There are gay Catholics you know. The two aren't mutually exclusive unless you're being particular and defining being gay as a practicing homosexual?

Phrases like 'vile catholic' from the likes of wheresthebeef really don't do anything for the plight of gays and their constant hissy-fitting on their never-ending quest of defining themselves.

Our constant hissy fitting? You see, you were doing very well and I was mostly in agreement with you. A tolerant democracy should allow all views to be espoused. There was a good article in last week's Sunday Times [here's a link] about not letting overtly PC-"liberalism" curtail people's rights and, as you say, that includes letting people choose their schools.

.. But that doesn't explain why you're suddenly talking about our constant "hissy fitting"? You mean a quest to ensure that we get treated as equals? As Catholicism preaches in "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? This isn't a case of definition - we're defined already within ourselves and would like acceptance. You may personally disagree with the practices of homosexuality and it may not fit into your Catholic framework, but how does ignoring the plight and suffering of others, labelling it as whining, fit into any vague notion of Catholicism?

Cantab.

ixoy wrote:

There are gay Catholics you know. The two aren't mutually exclusive unless you're being particular and defining being gay as a practicing homosexual?

I'm quite aware of this. Some lead wonderful lives. Some do not. Part of being a Cathoic is to open your heart to the faith and this includes taking on its teachings. Some men within the church live with homosexual urges (both mild and extreme) all their lives and do not act on them.

ixoy wrote:

Our constant hissy fitting? You see, you were doing very well and I was mostly in agreement with you. A tolerant democracy should allow all views to be espoused. There was a good article in last week's Sunday Times [here's a link] about not letting overtly PC-"liberalism" curtail people's rights and, as you say, that includes letting people choose their schools.

I'm quite interested in the global phenomenom of liberalism actually. We tread dangerous ground when one person's rights take priority over another's in the name of political correctness.

ixoy wrote:

.. But that doesn't explain why you're suddenly talking about our constant "hissy fitting"? You mean a quest to ensure that we get treated as equals? As Catholicism preaches in "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? This isn't a case of definition - we're defined already within ourselves and would like acceptance. You may personally disagree with the practices of homosexuality and it may not fit into your Catholic framework, but how does ignoring the plight and suffering of others, labelling it as whining, fit into any vague notion of Catholicism?

I meant hissy-fitty with regards to the popular activity of Church-bashing and the pheonomenom of lobbying the Church by lay pressure groups and activists such as homosexuals. I'm not asking gay lobby groups to ignore the fact that there are gays who choose to go to Mass on Sunday's, but more to realise that their protests are futile because the Church are simply not interested in hearing about such matters from persons who deny God.

ixoy

Cantab. wrote:

I'm quite interested in the global phenomenom of liberalism actually. We tread dangerous ground when one person's rights take priority over another's in the name of political correctness.

Indeed, it's an interesting topic. One of the points mentioned in that article was one you might well be able to relate to. A woman rang into a radio chat show, saying she believed that gay couples would not be fit for adopting a boy in the same way that two hetrosexual men would not be fit to adopt a girl. The following day she was visited by the police. Now they hadn't anything to say per se, as she had done nothing wrong, but it would possibly have been intimidating.

Now I, of course, completely disagree with her point of view and find it mildly offensive. However, she still has a right to express it when she's not actually advocating hate crimes or any such thing. She certainly doesn't need a visit by the establishment on what she can and can't say in this case. That's the odd ground where the far left and far right meet, in the curtailing of people's liberties in the name of their ideologies goal.

I'm not asking gay lobby groups to ignore the fact that there are gays who choose to go to Mass on Sunday's, but more to realise that their protests are futile because the Church are simply not interested in hearing about such matters from persons who deny God.

Hmm, you see these people aren't denying God. What they're arguing over is some of the Catholic Church's interpretation of God's word...

The Church has made mistakes, even if it admits to few of them and it does also change over time. Remember that priests were originally allowed to marry - is a priest who advocates change away from celibacy also denying God? No, they're merely arguing over an aspect of Catholicism as it is currently.

Lobbying for change may eventually cause some shift in the Papal hierarchy that could bring about a more welcome church that includes all members, regardless of their orientation. And that, to return to the original topic, is what I'd like to see in all schools. I'd like to think Catholic schools could embrace the broad ethos of Catholicism without going down to the fine print of distinguishing around sexual orientation and creating hostile environments, particularly when the kids who are gay/bisexual never chose this environment for themselves.

Zillah

Ioxy, Cantab, I must forward my congratulation to both of you. For two people who clearly have very different views on the topic you have both remained remarkably civil.

Its refreshing. Carry on...

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