Man U vs Lyon (includes scores!)

Memnoch

1-1 at half time.

Great cross by alan smith causing trouble for the defence. Comedy of errors by the defence resulting in a failure to clear the ball and gary neville powers it home.

Ridiculously long range but well struck effort from a lyon player (etient? can't spell his name)... and roy carrol palms the ball up over his shoulder and into the net.

Both teams have played good attacking football making it an entertaining match to watch, though its dissapointing that the goals have been a result of errors.

Also can Ronaldo please stop falling over every time he looses the ball?

edit - sorry yes it was neville, dunno why i typed gigs ;P i guess g for gary and g for giggs? :P plus i was in a hurry to get back to the tele

Pacifico

Yeah bad mistake by Carrol for the goal. Rooney hitting the post early on :eek:

joe.

2-1 united. headed by van nistlerooy after ferdinands cross

smemon

NEXT.... utd are in cruise control at the minute, some of their play is stunning and they have that spark and class in the side that the '99 side had.

with an all out attack we were always going to give away chances, but we hit the post twice and came close 2 or 3 other times (wes brown at start of 2nd half for exmaple).

comfortable at 2-1, that sounds daft but we were, lyon never had the clinical finishing or class that we had. keep this form up and things will be looking rosey by the new year. once again europe is too easy for us in the group stages.

eirebhoy

smemon wrote:

comfortable at 2-1

I wouldn't say that. I had a bet on United and they had me on the edge of my seat.

A Dub in Glasgo

I thought Lyon out passed Man United for a good bit of the game. If Lyon had some effective strikers, they would not have lost this game. I would not say it was comfortable

Memnoch

fun game to watch, good to see open ended attacking play from both teams, and some nice flowing football.

I'd say in terms of passing etc. both teams did well, but United definately had the edge when it came to strikes. Their final ball was a lot better than Lyon and they took their chances better all in all. Lyon wasted a couple of really good chances.

The 2nd goal from united was very nice. Great work by ferdinand to keep control in the box and cross to Ruud, who scored a very very nice header, by out jumping the defender. Great direction and power on it giving the keeper no chance.

The only 2 blemishes for me from united's performance tonight was Ronaldo's constant falling every single time he lost the ball. Yes there were times when he was genuinly fouled, but a lot of the time he was just falling over for no reason trying to get free kicks etc, which is really lame.

The 2nd was when heinze pushed frau in the united penalty area with about 20 minutes left in the 2nd half. It was even more obvious on the replay, he litereally shoved your man to the ground. Fair play to frau for not making a big deal out of it, but that could so easily have been given as a penalty. I was dissapointed by that push from Heinze because for the most part I thought his defending was top class, and was well impressed by it.

Still I think on the balance of play and chances created 2-1 is a fair result, especially considering that United hit the post twice.

A Dub in Glasgo

Yep, that certainly looked a foul

The Muppet

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Yep, that certainly looked a foul

Shoulder to shoulder is not a foul. Deserved win for United. They are still improving Rio needs to concentrate a bit more as he made one or two unforced errors again tonight. What a howler from Carroll it will be intersting to see if Howard makes a comeback next game.

eirebhoy

The Muppet wrote:

What a howler from Carroll it will be intersting to see if Howard makes a comeback next game.

There's no way Carroll will be dropped after one howler otherwise both keepers will be under pressure every time they play. It took a few mistakes for Howard to be dropped.

Also, I don't know about the first sentence. A player could be running at 30 miles an hour and go straight into the opposition shoulder to shoulder, he'd most likely go flying.

Anyway, United deserved to win overall anyway, hitting the woodwork twice considered.

PHB

It was a perfectly fair challenge, it wasa shoulder charge which is allowed by the rules.

Good win overall, nice attacking football.
I felt at about 20 times, we needed another winger out there.
Giggs and Ronaldo would be nice, not to say that Smith wasn't fantastic.

Memnoch

i'm getting to the stage where i'm just going to start ignoring anything a Man U supporter says on these boards about Man u., because it seems like you can't take any sort of criticism of your favorite team. they never do anything unfair in your eyes.

Pushing someone in the middle of their chest is a shoulder charge? Only if they decided to rename chest to shoulder.

It was NOT shoulder to shoulder in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM... really guys take off the blindness specs when it comes and learn to admit the fallacies of your team.

god i can't stand fanbois

Jivin Turkey

smemon wrote:

once again europe is too easy for us in the group stages.

It does make it easier when you are drawn in easy groups though.

I always feel that this is Uniteds downfall in Europe though. They have drawn easy groups for the last 5 years or so, and have breezed through them without being tested. Hence they are found wanting at the knockout stages.

Good win tonight though, not that I expected any less from them at home, teams in the bracket of Lyon etc rarely (if ever!) come away with anything from OT. Still have a job to do though in Turkey if they are to top the group.

The Muppet

eirebhoy wrote:

There's no way Carroll will be dropped after one howler otherwise both keepers will be under pressure every time they play. It took a few mistakes for Howard to be dropped.

Also, I don't know about the first sentence. A player could be running at 30 miles an hour and go straight into the opposition shoulder to shoulder, he'd most likely go flying.

Anyway, United deserved to win overall anyway, hitting the woodwork twice considered.

I was'nt suggesting he should be dropped just wondering would he be? I would be surprised if he were dropped but then again I was surprised when Howard was.

AFAIK a soulder to shoulder charge is legit no matter what speed the players a moving at. Heinzes challenge was shoulder on shoulder a fact confirmed by the referee by his lack of action .

Memnoch wrote:

i'm getting to the stage where i'm just going to start ignoring anything a Man U supporter says on these boards about Man u.,
because it seems like you can't take any sort of criticism of your favorite team. they never do anything unfair in your eyes.

Pushing someone in the middle of their chest is a shoulder charge? Only if they decided to rename chest to shoulder.

It was NOT shoulder to shoulder in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM... really guys take off the blindness specs when it comes and learn to admit the fallacies of your team.

god i can't stand fanbois

Good , can we hold you to that?

Memnoch this is a discussion forum so there's no need to be throwing you toys out of the pram just because someone disagrees with you opinion. Your the one that needs to get your eyesight sorted if you saw anything more than a shoulder to shoulder challenge from Heinze. Now grow up and discuus your opinion without the childish tantrums like a good man.

AthAnRi

i'm getting to the stage where i'm just going to start ignoring anything a Man U supporter says on these boards about Man u., because it seems like you can't take any sort of criticism of your favorite team. they never do anything unfair in your eyes.

Pushing someone in the middle of their chest is a shoulder charge? Only if they decided to rename chest to shoulder.

Obviously it isn't, do you not know that? But for Heinze to have shoulder the guy in the Chest would have been next to impossible for the angle both players were running at.

I was at the match lst nigh, yes I'm a man utd fan, But I keep a fairly open mind about these things. I was in that corner where the incident happened, which by the way was close to the away support. Neither the player who was "Fouled" or the Supprters made any attempt to claim it as a penalty.

It was a dangerous ploy from Heinze to attempt such a tackle in the box but from where I was sitting it look like a perfectly legimate, well time shoulder charge. If it happened at the other end and the same decision was giving would you be on this thread arguing that it should have been a penalty? I doubt it severly.

cournioni

In all fairness, that would have been a very very harsh penalty Memnoch. How can a shoulder charge be a penalty? Besides, the Lyon player wasn't even in control of the ball. You seem to be the only person that thinks it was a penalty, because neither the Lyon player or the supporters had claimed for a penalty.

Good win and performance. Great display of football by Roy Keane, easily man of the match. He cleaned up everything in midfield even though he took time to settle in, and once he did some of his vision and passing was out of this world. The man is not finished yet!

All of the goals were very scrappy which didn't really do justice for the game, it was a great game to watch. Fast paced and flowing football played all around.

If only that van Nistelrooy lob had to be just the other side of the post, it probably would have been probably one of the goals of the season, great play and vision by Rooney. Smith had a great game I thought, he held the ball up well in the second half and he wasn't afraid to get stuck in. All in all a good effort from everyone in Red, if they keep this up until the end of the season I'm sure we will have a trophy a trophy at the end of it. Lets hope it will be the European Cup!

Jivin Turkey

PORNAPSTER wrote:

How can a shoulder charge be a penalty? Besides, the Lyon player wasn't even in control of the ball. You seem to be the only person that thinks it was a penalty, because neither the Lyon player or the supporters had claimed for a penalty.

I havnt seen the incident yet but if he "wasnt even in control of the ball" he shouldnt be getting shoulder charged. That would be on off the ball incident and a foul.

yop

Ya a deserved win, not sure if it was comfortable but all in all they deserved the win.

Thought RVN and Rooney began to link up, what a top class pass from Rooney for RVN to lob, it is a shame that it did not go in.

BTW - it was a shoulder to shoulder, correct me if I am wrong but did any of the Lyon players protest and go lookin for a penalty, I do not think that they did.
Also none of the commentators mentioned it should have been a penalty, BUT then again maybe all the Lyon players and commentators do not know the rules of football.

Good to get the win for Sir Alex, on achieving the unreal 1000 matches in charge. Made a special nite for him all the better. At least we are through now and take it handy in the next match.

BaZmO*

The Muppet wrote:

What a howler from Carroll it will be intersting to see if Howard makes a comeback next game.

Well according to Mark Lawrenson last night Van der Sar is going to Utd. in January. And he'd seemed definite about it, it wasn't even up for discussion, it was just a fact. Apparently Van der Sar is out on a free at the end of the season so I would imagine Fulham will be looking to make some money on him.

B.

The Muppet

BaZmO* wrote:

Well according to Mark Lawrenson last night Van der Sar is going to Utd. in January. And he'd seemed definite about it, it wasn't even up for discussion, it was just a fact. Apparently Van der Sar is out on a free at the end of the season so I would imagine Fulham will be looking to make some money on him.

B.

I didn't hear that, thats very interesting . He's a solid keeper and would be a good signing IMO. Carroll is playing well but one mistake at European level can see you out of the competition so Caroll did himself no favours last night. He is out of contract in the summer as well so I assume Howard will be the number two and Roy will be leaving.

dirkey_wynne

Was also at the game last night. Stretford End, so was opposite end to that where the penalty incident ye're discussing. I remember saying to my friend how Heinze appeared to just head straight for the man, but it looked like a shoulder charge, and as others have said, the lack of appeals from players and fans led me to believe it was fair.

Ruud really is outstanding. Those claiming need for him to be dropped have been proved wrong again. Keano bossed it. Scholes getting back to his best. Wes outstanding after he came on. Ronaldo atrocious first half - and getting a surprising amount of stick from those around me when he continually went down - but he was masterful in the second half. I thought it was a comfortable win. I remarked on it to the buddy as we left - despite being only 1 up, I never felt danger.

The Rooster

dirkey_wynne wrote:

despite being only 1 up, I never felt danger.

it reminded me of the porto game last year. Despite appearing in control, you are never safe if you're only 1 up. Any team can score a goal (flukey or otherwise) at any time

cournioni

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I havnt seen the incident yet but if he "wasnt even in control of the ball" he shouldnt be getting shoulder charged. That would be on off the ball incident and a foul.

Take a look at the incident. The ball is going out of play, and the Lyon player is chasing after it. Heinze shoulder charges the Lyon player to shepherd the ball out of play. Simple as that. It happens all of the time in football.

dirkey_wynne

The Rooster wrote:

it reminded me of the porto game last year. Despite appearing in control, you are never safe if you're only 1 up. Any team can score a goal (flukey or otherwise) at any time

The big diffreence for me with that game is that I remember being very nervous when Porto had the ball - with Lyon I wasn't. They didn't really create anything - their goal wasn't even a good effort, just an awful mistake.

AthAnRi

I havnt seen the incident yet but if he ...

If you haven't seen the incident then wait until you have until you pass judgement.

I agree with a lot of what you have to say Jivin Turkey, all except the parts about Keane and Scholes.

Keane, Was still only a shadow of his former self. His positioning is still top class but he is seriously short on pace and his hard tackling is somewhat softer than it used to be.

Scholes, He really pissed me off last night, almost as much a C.Ronaldo. Scholes is a class act but this season he seems to have lost the hunger.Which is understanable after the amount of football he has played in his career.

The Muppet

AthAnRi wrote:

Scholes, He really pissed me off last night, almost as much a C.Ronaldo. Scholes is a class act but this season he seems to have lost the hunger.Which is understanable after the amount of football he has played in his career.

There are some serious rumours doing the rounds in Manchester concerning Scholes health. His decision to retire from international football and his performances so far this season are so below par for him you have to think there is something not right with him. Its possible that we are seeing his last season.

eirebhoy

AthAnRi wrote:

Keane, Was still only a shadow of his former self.

His former self is gone though. People still compare the new Keane with the old. He was holding the midfield all alone as the other midfielders were Scholes, Ronaldo and Smith. If that was a 21 year old making his debut he would have got 11 out of 10. Forget the box the box Keane.

Jivin Turkey

AthAnRi wrote:

If you haven't seen the incident then wait until you have until you pass judgement.

It doesnt matter i I have seen it or not, Pornapster said that he didnt have the ball when he was tackled. Players shouldnt be tackled if they dont have the ball, I dont need to see it to know that.

Im not saying it was or was not a penalty (I havnt even seen it!), but it is similar to the Ljungberg incident at OT a few weeks back where United fans were claiming that Ljungberg didnt have control of the ball anyway, if he doesnt have the ball he shouldnt be tackled, simple as.

And I never said anything about Keane or Scholes

jank

There are some serious rumours doing the rounds in Manchester concerning Scholes health. His decision to retire from international football and his performances so far this season are so below par for him you have to think there is something not right with him. Its possible that we are seeing his last season.

I heard that too although I wont go into detail of what I heard cause Ill be shot down straight away as stiring **** up!

It is clear that he is not the player he was a year or 2 ago.
Playing better of late but still doesnt have that "world-class" aura about him.

thejollyrodger

Have to agree with Lawerson on TV3 last night. Van de Sar and a new holding midfielder is what United need to progress. That and get rid of a load of player who are surplus to requirments.

jank

Yea but remember UTD have no transfer budget untill january 2006 according to the chairman unless fergie sells players to make up funds.

The team you see now is really the team that will be there for the next few years.

Free transfers are always good though but can be a gamble.

cournioni

Jivin Turkey wrote:

It doesnt matter i I have seen it or not, Pornapster said that he didnt have the ball when he was tackled. Players shouldnt be tackled if they dont have the ball, I dont need to see it to know that.

Im not saying it was or was not a penalty (I havnt even seen it!), but it is similar to the Ljungberg incident at OT a few weeks back where United fans were claiming that Ljungberg didnt have control of the ball anyway, if he doesnt have the ball he shouldnt be tackled, simple as.

And I never said anything about Keane or Scholes

Read what I've posted...

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Take a look at the incident. The ball is going out of play, and the Lyon player is chasing after it. Heinze shoulder charges the Lyon player to shepherd the ball out of play. Simple as that. It happens all of the time in football.

A Dub in Glasgo

Jivin Turkey wrote:

It doesnt matter i I have seen it or not, Pornapster said that he didnt have the ball when he was tackled. Players shouldnt be tackled if they dont have the ball, I dont need to see it to know that.

Im not saying it was or was not a penalty (I havnt even seen it!), but it is similar to the Ljungberg incident at OT a few weeks back where United fans were claiming that Ljungberg didnt have control of the ball anyway, if he doesnt have the ball he shouldnt be tackled, simple as.

It was one of those incidents where both players were chasing a ball near the touchline and the defender is attempting to stop the attacker getting the ball so that the ball can go out of play and a goal kick awarded. from what I saw, the attacker was barged into by the defender to stop him getting the ball. It may have been what is deemed 'shoulder to shoulder' but if it happened in the middle of the pitch, a foul woul have almost certainly been awarded. It is similar to the obstruction a defender does to shepard a ball out. Referees rarely give fouls in that instance but will nearly always give the foul if it was done in the middle of the pitch.

Jivin Turkey

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Read what I've posted...

Read what you've posted....

PORNAPSTER wrote:

How can a shoulder charge be a penalty? Besides, the Lyon player wasn't even in control of the ball.

Now to me, a player who "wasnt even in control of the ball" in not in possession. A shoulder charge on a player that does not have possession is a foul. Im only going by your description of the incident.

smemon

petty arguement really the heinze incident. it was strength, it wasnt dangerous or foul play, he just muscled the lyon player out of it and shepard the ball out of play. plus there was no way he was going to make anything out of it so he sort of gave up beforehand once he seen heinze coming in.

i suppose heinze should have been sent off too for serious foul play :rolleyes: football is a CONTACT sport, stop trying to make it into basketball with very weak arguements.

cournioni

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Read what you've posted....

Now to me, a player who "wasnt even in control of the ball" in not in possession. A shoulder charge on a player that does not have possession is a foul. Im only going by your description of the incident.

We see it time and time again in soccer when the ball is rolling out play at the endline. That challenge was no different than any of those.

yop

"There are some serious rumours doing the rounds in Manchester concerning Scholes health"

Scholes is an asthmatic, could this be causing him issues now???

Memnoch

It was not shoulder to shoulder, for the last time, and this is CLEARLY OBVIOUS on the replay where you can see the front of both players. They were chasing the ball, heinze charged into your man and PUSHED him with his hand using the force of his arm and not his shoulder.

If you can't see that from this angle you must be blind.

I didn't wanna make a big deal out of it, but its really wrecking my head the way Man U. supporters are obsessed with defending everything their players do especially when its wrong.

Its like they were saying Van Nistelroy kicking Ashley Cole was okay because Cole did that to someone else earlier in the year....

The Muppet

Memnoch wrote:

It was not shoulder to shoulder, for the last time, and this is CLEARLY OBVIOUS on the replay where you can see the front of both players. They were chasing the ball, heinze charged into your man and PUSHED him with his hand using the force of his arm and not his shoulder.

If you can't see that from this angle you must be blind.

I didn't wanna make a big deal out of it, but its really wrecking my head the way Man U. supporters are obsessed with defending everything their players do especially when its wrong.

Its like they were saying Van Nistelroy kicking Ashley Cole was okay because Cole did that to someone else earlier in the year....

yawn !!!!!


Maybe you were watching a different incident to the rest of us.

Memnoch

no i was just watching an inicdent different to that of Man U. supporters. the man u. bias is just sad realy. I got a good taste of it after the Arsenal vs man u game and now I've gotten confirmation.

The Muppet

Memnoch wrote:

no i was just watching an inicdent different to that of Man U. supporters. the man u. bias is just sad realy. I got a good taste of it after the Arsenal vs man u game and now I've gotten confirmation.

Well Mr. Impartiality you appear to be the only one campaigning for a penalty. Is it possible that you may be wrong in this instance? Maybe your time would be better spent learning the rules of the game.

yop

Talk about a hang up over one incident, mother of god will you give it up, only you think it was a foul or a push or what ever match you were watching.

The rest of us including the commentators, Lyon players and ref and linesman seem to think otherwise.

So obviously we are all wrong, fair enough, he pushed him, it should have been a penalty, will that do you.
Now drop it for god's sake.

Draupnir

Wow, talk about your flame baiting. Good to see the football forum has come so far that a stupid personal row hasnt kicked off here!

Anyway, looked fairly shoulder to shoudler to me, and since John Toshack thought it was a peno, I definitely think it wasnt.

Thought United played well at times, Roy was magnificent last nite, in my opinion. Liverpool were robbed in their game, so an enjoyable nite for me!

dirkey_wynne

Memnoch wrote:

no i was just watching an inicdent different to that of Man U. supporters. the man u. bias is just sad realy. I got a good taste of it after the Arsenal vs man u game and now I've gotten confirmation.

Exactly. Come on guys. It's blatant it's us Utd followers who have the problem. Look there are loads of fans other than Memnoch saying it was a penalty. Oh - hang on. Nope, none of the others are. Just as the Lyon fans and players weren't. Wow. Funny how so many of us can get the incident wrong.

cournioni

LOL. I don't think Memnoch should call himself a neutral when United are playing again in fairness.