Anyone here a member of a trade union

dendenz

I am in telesales, ahve been in my job two years, latley we are getting hassle and we are sure its the system. We are getting blamed though and a series of bad decisions has taken away what was a brilliant atmosphere. Anyone here in a union and can anyone recommend a good one. Am joining SIPTU but what do you think?

billy the squid

Been a member of SIPTU for the past three or so years. conditions where I work have improved dramatically but you will need the majority of the people working there to join and join quickly, If they join one at a time, your employer could find a way to fire ye one at a time.

elivsvonchiaing

No Member of anything!Trade UNIONS all suck!

ven0m

I'm a shop steward for a trade union & I say unions are a necessary 'evil', otherwise if companies could get away with treating their staff how they wanted at the expense of a 'quick buck' in this country, they would go Filipino without any problems.... when you see how some companies (I know they're out to make money - I'm not living in a dream world) will treat their staff without a second thought, it makes you wonder whether it's time ethics came back into it..... lets face it, people are your MOST IMPORTANT asset. They are NOT a resource, they are an ASSET.... most fail to remember that.....


::: ven0mous :::

Shaque attack

I am a member of mandate. i would echo what venomous just said, they are a neccesary evil but i don't like the corruption that nearly always happens between union officials and employers

ven0m

Shaque attack wrote:

I am a member of mandate. i would echo what venomous just said, they are a neccesary evil but i don't like the corruption that nearly always happens between union officials and employers

Mandate - my g/f used to be a shop steward for them, & man they make my union look like a bunch of little girls!!!!! That sounds sooooo bad when I put it like that - probably cos my union is in bed with the company, and I've a sneaking suspicion some other unions are in bed with the mgmt of the companies of the people they are 'supposed' to represent!!!! GRRR!!!! :mad:


::: ven0mous :::

billy the squid

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

No Member of anything!Trade UNIONS all suck!

Could you elaborate on this insightful us even more, to make a statement like that without backing it up is a little lame to be honest.

I have worked for the people I work for since before we were unionised, and I can honestly tell you that there were some horrendous things happening where I work before we all joined SIPTU.

From my own experience, every company starts off with good intentions, giving out the big hampers at christmas and having the best canteen facilities, but as time goes by the hampers get smaller and the cut backs in favour of making a profit takes over. The atmosphere within the company goes downhill.

ixoy

billy the squid wrote:

From my own experience, every company starts off with good intentions, giving out the big hampers at christmas and having the best canteen facilities, but as time goes by the hampers get smaller and the cut backs in favour of making a profit takes over. The atmosphere within the company goes downhill.

Care to come here then Billy? Our canteen has been shrunk (no longer serves hot food), our equivalent of a Christmas hamper gone, and our wages frozen in honor of the cold month ahead (I assume). This is in a drive to get profits - justifiable or not?

While we're here, will you agree that certain unions use aggressive tactics to get undeserved increases? Isn't the TEU, for example, looking for a 15% increase for all lift workers despite achieving benchmarking and having a damned damned basic wage? They'll probably get it too rather than risk losing lift operations in vital arenas like hospitals. At what point are they admirably trying to protect a worker from exploitation to just being greedy and screwing others over?

ven0m

ixoy wrote:

At what point are they admirably trying to protect a worker from exploitation to just being greedy and screwing others over?

When their own best interests come first & when 'dues' are % based on salaries...... & usually when they've a stake in the company *cough cough* that's when I start to worry - I give my time as a shop steward for free, I don't get any special treatment, pay, benefits or otherwise & I can assure you - first chance I thought I was getting screwed, war would be declared.....


::: ven0mous :::

Shaque attack

ven0m wrote:

When their own best interests come first & when 'dues' are % based on salaries...... & usually when they've a stake in the company *cough cough* that's when I start to worry - I give my time as a shop steward for free, I don't get any special treatment, pay, benefits or otherwise & I can assure you - first chance I thought I was getting screwed, war would be declared.....


::: ven0mous :::

if only our shop steward was like that

cajun_tiger

yup of some form cant remeber the name

samo

I worked in a call centre for 2 years, and things got progressivly bad in the company - very bad in fact and everyone went on a semi strike! (was a great 20 minutes bt in all seriousness was a protest) alot of us joined the communication workers union (CWU) who also represent an post, dhl etc TBH it only managed to antagonise management ven more, they wouldnt recognise the union.

anyone suspected of being a member found themselves under alot of pressure which is of course illegal but happened anyway and alot of people were put onto final written warnings asa result of the semi strike for 2 years, affecting bonuses and sick pay etc and this all happened becuase we were protesting about conditions. The union seemed more interested in gettings subs than really doing to much, didnt follow up unfair dismissals or constructive dismissals but did leaflet drops which p*ssed them off alright and got the written warnings reduced to a year so were semi effective.

thats my experience and as I said was a similar field so if theres a majority in the company it will give you alot more power and it will make them take you a little more seriously about things but I would be very selective about the union you choose and make sure it has a good reputation for helping the workers as I know in the buiding trade there are some unions much better than others.

I ended up leaving my job in the end because I got fed up of complaining all the time TBH, I know thats giving up and you should put a fight up over these things but ended up getting a job that was better and batter paid so thankfully didnt have to see it through.

WhiteWashMan

i used to be a shop steward with SIPTU when i worked in NEC.

i have to admit, i will never be in a union again, and i will never work anywhere that is unionised.
as far as im concerned, if a place of work 'needs' a union, then its probably not somewhere i wish to work.
unions may bring everyone up to the same level and help fight the good cause, but on the back side, they bring people back down and do more to create a 'them vs us' atmosphere which is not healthy in a work place

WhiteWashMan

samo wrote:

it only managed to antagonise management ven more, they wouldnt recognise the union.
.

while every knows that it is illegal to restrict someone from joining a union, few people realise that a company does not have to recognise a union


so a union really only has power when it truely does hold the powere of the people.

samo

WhiteWashMan wrote:

while every knows that it is illegal to restrict someone from joining a union, few people realise that a company does not have to recognise a union


so a union really only has power when it truely does hold the powere of the people.

exactly,thats a good point. it can take months of wrangling to get a company to sit at the labour courts with a union and evn then they still wont recognise them which doesnt solve much

John R

ixoy wrote:

Care to come here then Billy? Our canteen has been shrunk (no longer serves hot food), our equivalent of a Christmas hamper gone, and our wages frozen in honor of the cold month ahead (I assume). This is in a drive to get profits - justifiable or not?

While we're here, will you agree that certain unions use aggressive tactics to get undeserved increases? Isn't the TEU, for example, looking for a 15% increase for all lift workers despite achieving benchmarking and having a damned damned basic wage? They'll probably get it too rather than risk losing lift operations in vital arenas like hospitals. At what point are they admirably trying to protect a worker from exploitation to just being greedy and screwing others over?

Why is it that some people are far more concerned with the idea that others may be getting more than they deserve as opposed to trying to get proper terms for themselves?

John R

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i used to be a shop steward with SIPTU when i worked in NEC.

i have to admit, i will never be in a union again, and i will never work anywhere that is unionised.
as far as im concerned, if a place of work 'needs' a union, then its probably not somewhere i wish to work.
unions may bring everyone up to the same level and help fight the good cause, but on the back side, they bring people back down and do more to create a 'them vs us' atmosphere which is not healthy in a work place

If a place doesen't need a union it is only because of the previous efforts of workers and unions who struggled to get the good conditions in the first place.

In my experience very few if any companies provide good conditions to all their employees without a fight. It is often the case that certain employees are treated very well but that is usually contrasted by lower ranks often in different parts of the world that are treated like sh!t.

ixoy

John R wrote:

Why is it that some people are far more concerned with the idea that others may be getting more than they deserve as opposed to trying to get proper terms for themselves?

Well because when these groups get their underserved pay increases, we - the public - pay in increased prices and/or taxes.... That's why I'm concerned.

dendenz

I read the points with interest. I spoke to SIPTU and have to admit that what we do have is very promising. I am keen to avoid an US vs THEM type of atmosphere and I feel this can be done by being diplomatic and slow to take offence. After all the point of any company is to make a profit and the point of any job is to get paid what you deserve and work in an enviroment that is productive and minus harrasement and hassle.

I am with my employer two years and have found that the new staff in at the moment roll over and take hassle. The long term staff (i.e. myself) dont. If there is a problem its solved , if managment have a problem with us they let us know.

Let me explain the situation. We sell a product for a financial institution. There is 40+ staff working there, out of that 30+ are deemed to have mis sold these products including me! I would never do anything like that intentionally, I do make mistakes as I am human!and have to admit management are blind if they cannot see its the programmes or packages they are using are to blame. As a result people have been fined out of their commission (they cant be find out of their wages/basic this is illegal) as commission is performance related pay apparently. However I am lead to believe different.

elivsvonchiaing

billy the squid wrote:

Could you elaborate on this insightful us even more, to make a statement like that without backing it up is a little lame to be honest.

Have to concede this was quite lame. (All trade unions suck!) I see trade unions as a powerful and positive force in Jim Larkin's day. Also, in developing countries they still have legitimacy.

I've seen too many pointless strikes in my lifetime, caused by bullies who's hobby is to piss-off people around them, especially management, while spinning the whole situation to get sympathy when they appear unfairly treated...

In an age where few are unfairly exploited (well in Ireland), where there are opportunities to vote with your feet and move on, trade unions mainly only serve to reduce the GNP - they make everyone poorer imho!

The eighties were a depressing time to be... but I really think things could have been improved if unions had had less influence... I really believe they just made things worse, I concour with WhiteWashMan, I would never work in a place that is unionised either. They do tend to stir the sh1t and sour relations between management and workers, artificially creating "them-and-us", where in reality this started to disappear in the 1920's. By the 1980's there was no such gulf between workers and management. Management staff did not earn enough to employ house-maids/butlers in the 1980's but unions of this time drew their mentality from the 1920's. Think most unions have made it to the 1950's mentally by now - they remain an anachnonism imho!

pork99

ven0m wrote:

lets face it, people are your MOST IMPORTANT asset. They are NOT a resource, they are an ASSET.... most fail to remember that.....


::: ven0mous :::

There's a Dilbert cartoon which shows the hapless clerk reporting a survey that puts the vast corporation's assets into some sort of order. "People come sixth," says Dilbert. "What's our most important asset, then?" asks his similarly downtrodden colleague. "Paperclips," comes the reply.

I'm self-employed so joining a union = might as well just jump in front of a train

billy the squid

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

In an age where few are unfairly exploited (well in Ireland), where there are opportunities to vote with your feet and move on, trade unions mainly only serve to reduce the GNP - they make everyone poorer imho!

I would disagree with this. The higher standards required by employers means that even a simple factory worker is required to have a Leaving Certificate. many employees in their 30s for example would need to go through college to change employer nowadays. making changing employer more difficult for anyone just out of school too. And exploitation has occoured in more recent times than you think. I know of one multinational where employees were given the option of working horrendous hours, and to save cash, manual work which required two people to do, was assigned to one person. A heavily pregnant woman was left in one of these positions, and anyone who offered to assist her was moved along by the supervisor, after ten hours at her work station she was taken to hospital with exhaustion. so please don't tell me that employers are not making **** out of their workers in this day and age because they are.

The eighties were a depressing time to be... but I really think things could have been improved if unions had had less influence

Income tax was alot higher in the eighties than it is now, if it was not for partnerships like the PESP and Partnership 2000, which involved trade unions then the celtic tiger would not have happened.

I really believe they just made things worse, I concour with WhiteWashMan, I would never work in a place that is unionised either.

I would disagree with this, as I have been in a position where my employer tried to renage on a partnership agreement, if it was not for the union I would be over €1200 out of pocket, along with every other employee I work with.

They do tend to stir the sh1t and sour relations between management and workers.

I am of the belief that unions are a good preventative measure. They protect people's rights from unscrupulous employers out there who would rather pay next to nothing for work that no well-to-do person would touch with a ten foot pole.

sliabh

I used to work as a manager in a unionised company. It was a factory that was moving from reasonably manual manufacturing to a more automated approach. We were good at what we did, other facotories around Europe were being shut to move their business to ours.

Coming out of the job (I now work in the IT industry as a non-unionised grunt and am happy enough that way) I have a generally neutral view of unions.

From a management point of view it can be quite good to have one organisation to go to to get agreements in the company. They can also be good for bringing worker complaints to management attention where sometimes an individual worker might not be happy to go to a manager. And despite what you often hear managers and management are not ogres looking to screw employees for everything they can. I was an employee and person too. I got dicked around by my employer from time to time as well.

But there were problems with unions as well. There was a huge amount of internal politics in the union that managers had to tip toe around. When workers are paying a weekly sub to a union they expect to be getting something for their money. And in some cases even when there were no problems on the floor issues were blown up out of all proportion just to show that they were taking the workers side and were doing something.

There were problems with some of the shop stewards as well that didn't seem to feel agreements with the company applied to them. I had one person threaten worker safety just to make a daft union rights point with me.

In our factory about half the shop stewards were good. They would see both sides of the issue, they knew what was a reasonable negotiating position. The other half were a pain in the arse. They could be hard negotiators, but were populists that did as much damage to the workers as good. It got nasty enough that we found some of the reasonable stewards were giving up the job because of the hassle of dealing with the refusniks. In one case we suspected the hardliners committed fraud in a vote count but as it wasn't our union so we couldn't say or do anything.

So unions can be good and can be bad. They can help with worker representation and they lead to an improvement in your situation. But don't expect them to be a panacea for all your employment ills and beware of the baggage they may bring!

maccydoodies

Did you know that its your constitutional right to join a union, but its also the employers constitutional right no to recognise them! (source from a Civil Service Union Official )

WhiteWashMan

John R wrote:

If a place doesen't need a union it is only because of the previous efforts of workers and unions who struggled to get the good conditions in the first place.

well, im not too sure about that. unless you have polled every company in the land, im sure we cannot really say this. i know i certainly havent.

John R wrote:

In my experience very few if any companies provide good conditions to all their employees without a fight. It is often the case that certain employees are treated very well but that is usually contrasted by lower ranks often in different parts of the world that are treated like sh!t.

i dont want to sound conceited, but to be honest, have you ever noticed that its always (well, majority) the low paying, ****ty factory work, or manufacturing work that gets unionised?
its grunt work.
i mean, apart from some speciality unions like the actors union or whatnot, the majority of union work is done where the pay is low, the conditions are crap (like working shifts) etc.

these are the types of places that unions work.

after all, i get paid shed loads of cash, i sure as hell dont want a union where i work

WhiteWashMan

sliabh wrote:

In our factory about half the shop stewards were good. They would see both sides of the issue, they knew what was a reasonable negotiating position. The other half were a pain in the arse. They could be hard negotiators, but were populists that did as much damage to the workers as good. It got nasty enough that we found some of the reasonable stewards were giving up the job because of the hassle of dealing with the refusniks. In one case we suspected the hardliners committed fraud in a vote count but as it wasn't our union so we couldn't say or do anything.!

i agree. getting a good union steward is as hard as getting a good manager.

half of them seem to think they are there to wage war against the company they work for, and the other half are too lazy to do anything, and only became shop stewards to get time off work.
it takes someone with balls to negotiate properly, and not just act as if you can take everything on the table.

personally, i am strictly on the side of corperate management. i would rather be a director or a ceo than a union member. there is just so much more money.

dendenz

My work mates have informed me they want m,e as the work steward . I would from reading this have to see both sides of an argument !

John R

WhiteWashMan wrote:

well, im not too sure about that. unless you have polled every company in the land, im sure we cannot really say this. i know i certainly havent.

It has nothing to do with the individual politics of certain companies. It is do do with the effect widespread unionisation has had on workers rights and conditions over the last 200 years.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i dont want to sound conceited, but to be honest, have you ever noticed that its always (well, majority) the low paying, ****ty factory work, or manufacturing work that gets unionised?
its grunt work.
i mean, apart from some speciality unions like the actors union or whatnot, the majority of union work is done where the pay is low, the conditions are crap (like working shifts) etc.

these are the types of places that unions work.

after all, i get paid shed loads of cash, i sure as hell dont want a union where i work

I believe conceited is EXACTLY what you want to appear to be.

Oral Slang

I'm currently in a predicament with my union, just wondering if anyone knows whats the best way to sort it.
Working in my company for the past few years & joined the union when I started as was the norm. Never really look at my payslip other than to check the final figure, but recently had a look and noticed that no union fees were taken out! Then started looking back at old slips & realised that it has never been deducted from my wages.
Where do I stand in terms of telling the union?? I asked some people what would happen if I tell the union & they said I'll have to pay all the money back, which I really don't have.. I'm so afraid that someday they'll go on strike & I'll get absolutely nothing, but also afraid that I owe a lump sum of money I don't have!

dendenz

IMO its a clerical error on their part, they should have asked you for the dues, just play dumb. Works a lot fo the time.

Oral Slang

thought that myself initially, but I think it's more our accounts department who never processed my form to start deducting my dues..
theres talk of possible strikes soon & I presume if I don't pay into the union, I'll get nothing!

Shaque attack

Oral Slang wrote:

thought that myself initially, but I think it's more our accounts department who never processed my form to start deducting my dues..
theres talk of possible strikes soon & I presume if I don't pay into the union, I'll get nothing!

if thats the case, would that not mean you haven't joined the union? if so tell your union rep and get in the union before any strike begins. if you're a memeber and they haven't deducted the fees its their fault not yours but you should probably still tell them. Either way i dont think you'll have to pay back fees

Oral Slang

No I'm definitely a member which is why I never noticed anything odd. When I joined initially I got stuff from them in the post & get the newsletters regularly..
Some people I asked said that that had happened to someone they knew before and they ended up having to pay it back.
Ah well, I know I'll have to tell them, just afraid of the answer.
Thanks for the advice!

WhiteWashMan

John R wrote:

I believe conceited is EXACTLY what you want to appear to be.

perhaps i am concieted, but that doesnt really bother me.

i just wouldnt want to work somewhere where my wages are dictated by other people that i dont trust.
i know what unions are like remember, ive been there, done that and worn the badge.
thats my experience, thats my opinion, and if i want to work somewhere without a union and earn a shed load of cash, thats my perogative as well.
if you dont like, then i humbly suggest you go and find something else to read.
not everyone in the world wants to work a factory floor for the rest of their life.

dendenz

WhiteWashMan wrote:

perhaps i am concieted, but that doesnt really bother me.

i just wouldnt want to work somewhere where my wages are dictated by other people that i dont trust.
i know what unions are like remember, ive been there, done that and worn the badge.
thats my experience, thats my opinion, and if i want to work somewhere without a union and earn a shed load of cash, thats my perogative as well.
if you dont like, then i humbly suggest you go and find something else to read.
not everyone in the world wants to work a factory floor for the rest of their life.

Exactly you would rather work somewhere where if things go bad they would turn around and drop your wages. What would you do, god forbidden all harm, if your company turned around tommorrow and said we are moving to India/China as costs are lower or we need all staff to take a pay cut. You would probably find another job, maybe not as well paid or you could turn around and say "hang on a minute, we have to stand up for ourselves". Unions are not some organisiation run by a dictator. Its run by a number of people who make democratic decisions that benefit all.

WhiteWashMan

dendenz wrote:

Exactly you would rather work somewhere where if things go bad they would turn around and drop your wages. What would you do, god forbidden all harm, if your company turned around tommorrow and said we are moving to India/China as costs are lower or we need all staff to take a pay cut. You would probably find another job, maybe not as well paid or you could turn around and say "hang on a minute, we have to stand up for ourselves". Unions are not some organisiation run by a dictator. Its run by a number of people who make democratic decisions that benefit all.

i think my point was i wouldnt work in a situation where that was likely to happen.
also, its against the law to drop someones wages without their agreement.
they also cannot relocate you without your prior agreement and you also get to negotiate your contract.

i have never said that unions are bad.
i have said i was in one, i was a shop steward in one, and i dont like tham.
i also said a union was only as strong as the people in it. if you dont have everyone involved, then you have no power, and you are wasting your money.

i have also put myself in a position where i am able to command a position where these things dont happen, and where unions are not needed.

if all went south in my job tomorrow, i would quite happily get another job on at least the same salary within a week.

that is why i have said that my opinion of unions is that i wont work with them.
i have not said they are not needed.

so before people go blasting at me, im telling from my perspective.

but again, even though im 'conceited' for pointing out that unions are generally more accepted in more manual and menial type workplaces like factories etc, it still has to be pointed out that by and large, this is true. unions are big in these sorts of areas, and these are not the sort of areas where i want to work becasue a) i dont like manual, menial or shift work, and b) the pay is crap, and c) there is no effort at employee retention and hence no effort at employee satisfaction, all leading to the need for a union.

of course, i f i work in a nice enviroment, i love my job, i get paid loads of cash, and i have a lot of fun, why the hell would i join a union?

WhiteWashMan

dendenz wrote:

Its run by a number of people who make democratic decisions that benefit all.

so was soviet russia.

ive seen the higher echelons of SIPTU, and my god, its not too fúcking dissimilar.

snowball and neopoleon were both there....

Victor

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

Management staff did not earn enough to employ house-maids/butlers in the 1980's but unions of this time drew their mentality from the 1920's.

Yeah, they got au-pairs instead of maids, much cheaper and easier to turn-over (in the various senses of the word).

sliabh wrote:

From a management point of view it can be quite good to have one organisation to go to to get agreements in the company. They can also be good for bringing worker complaints to management attention where sometimes an individual worker might not be happy to go to a manager. And despite what you often hear managers and management are not ogres looking to screw employees for everything they can. I was an employee and person too.

Of course companies don't spend their whole time screwing over staff. They need to reserve some time for screwing over customers and suppliers.

dendenz

Update have got another project in the building on board... is looking good !

Agent Smith

was in a trade union, then left the company... doesnt bother me tho

luckat

I'm prejudiced here - better announce that first. My family have always been strong for the union; both my father and my grandfather *founded* unions in their time.

I've been in good unions and bad ones. While self-employed, I couldn't get paid by a crooked contractor - my union put the contractor's name in the newsletter, and I was paid pronto (10 post-dated cheques, which I brought down one by one to the issuing bank and cashed as the dates came up!) This was after *two years* of trying to get paid. The Small Claims Court doesn't deal with pay for work, so I couldn't use that route.

Working in cafes when I was a babby, the union took their cut and did damn all to ensure that we were properly paid, had decent hours and conditions - or even that the employers paid in the tax and PRSI they deducted from our wages, which they did not do. That was the old Women Workers' Union.

I don't mind having my wages dictated by others: it's done by negotiation, and I'm able to talk to my shop stewards with everyone else and put our point before the bargain's done; the "dictation" doesn't happen without our agreement.

Some people are good at negotiating higher wages, others are not. Having a shop steward or two to do that negotiation helps the weaker people.

I had really bad bosses in a couple of jobs, and invariably those were jobs that weren't unionised. The bosses could do what they liked.

And when I worked for a place that went blooey, the union (including me) was the force that got people money before the dole kicked in, sorted as many as possible out with new work, and generally made sure everyone was ok.

Currently I'm very, very lucky in my bosses in the several places where I'm working. But it's still good to have the protection of a union so that if one person becomes the target of any bullying, everyone clusters round them and sorts things out for them.

I well remember my mother telling me about one of the big creameries in Dublin in the 1950s or so, where the workers boasted that they were much better paid than the unionised shops. Then they came in one day and found that the owners had done a midnight flit. If they'd had a union they could have had some comeback - at the very least, the union would have had more idea of what was going on. As it was, they were left flat.

Working people, whether they're well-paid professionals or manual workers, need to hang together; otherwise, as they say, we shall assuredly hang separately.