Opinions Requested

Iago

You're down to the last 15 in a MTT, top 9 get paid. Blinds are 400/800 and you have around 15K in Chips, you're fairly small stacked but not in a bad way. CL has about 35k and there are 4 players with less chips than you.


You're first to act and you're dealt 3s 3c.

A) Flat Call
Min Raise
C) Raise more than the minimum
D) Fold

Had this hand last night and I'm not sure I played it right, I think it played an important part in where I eventually finished

Hyzepher

I would flat call, fold to a significant raise and if I didn't hit the flop then I would get out as cheaply as possible.

I don't think I would raise pre-flop as if I hit I want the pot to be as big as possible - greater risk but a set of 3's is pretty stealthy

Hyzepher

Waylander

what Hyzepher said

Davey Devil

Pass, pass, pass - everytime.

JuliusFranco

utg is not a good place for 33
personally, i'd fold utg, unless you thought you might see a cheap flop, but then again I'm playing waaay to tight lately

then again, if it was the kinda table that would give respect to a utg raise....

BigDragon

Hyzepher wrote:

I would flat call, fold to a significant raise and if I didn't hit the flop then I would get out as cheaply as possible.

I don't think I would raise pre-flop as if I hit I want the pot to be as big as possible - greater risk but a set of 3's is pretty stealthy

Hyzepher

Ditto.

Imposter

What Hyzepher said unless there was a player who had a habit of raising to steal any blinds. In that case i'd fold.

Hectorjelly

I was just about to write a lengthy response when I realised you were under the gun. With that stack size you have no business being in the hand, easy fold. When your stack gets to that stage every chip is precious, and calling here is just giving chips away. Your going to hate 7/8 flops (all flops that dont contain a 3) and you will be out of position for the rest of the hand. If you were on the button then you might consider a call, but other than that fold.

Also at that stage of the tournament I doubt many flops are being seen cheaply, and you dont have the chips to call a raise.

You could raise if you want, which is marginally better than calling, but whilst your stack is small; you have still have time to find a far better place to make a final stand than 33 utg. I would probably fold 99, 10 10, Aj and maybe even JJ here.

Calling here is really really terrible

Spiritus

What is this 'Call' of which you speak? Raise or fold.

Hippo

Total fold

DeVore

I hate those hands in that position at that time of the night. if it was 2/400 or 3/600 on a tight table I might call to see if I got a set, but HJ is right, your chips are too precious at that point and not only are you throwing away 800 chips but since you are shortish stack and likely to be all in on premium hands in the future or not in the hand at all, that 800 really represents 1600, 3200 etc... when you double through.
It also makes your blind-raids more difficult to call as your stack is still sizeable rather then having leaked chips.

DeV.

Iago

Having carefully weighed up the options this is what I did for anyone who's interested

I flat called, I figured I had almost 20 times the BB and it was worth a look at the flop if I was allowed to limp in, had there been a raise I'd of folded. Only me and the blinds saw the flop, the flop was 3 5 9 rainbow, BB bet 1,200, I raised to 3K and the SB folded. BB went all-in for another 3.5K and I called. BB had A9o and I was mugged on 4th Street when a 9 landed, followed by an A on the river!! The more I think about it, I'd probably fold the next time out. I almost raised at the time, it was a tight table with a lot of respect been shown.

In the end I managed to make the final table and increased my stack to 30K when I tripled up with a K high flush against a Q high flush and trip J's. I finished 4th when shortstacked I went all-in for 12K and was called by a player with a similar stack, I had AT he had AJ and that was that

Evil_Bilbo

Correct me if I'm wrong, but another 9 coming up would surely give you a full house of 33399 (and only give the other guy 3 nines)?

Imo - you were right to call preflop - I wouldve (wouldve folded on any major raise though)

dropsy

I think there are only two options here - fold or make a pot committing raise. What you do depends on what you're after from the tournament, how many are on your table (with 15 left it's probably 7 or 8) and what your stack size is like in comparison to the rest of the table. If you are focussed on making the money then folding is the option but if winning or placing high is your goal then a significant raise is a valid play here if calling your raise would put others at the table at significant risk of being eliminated now or soon after (for example, if the CL with 35K is on one of the blinds then you cannot raise here whereas if either or both blinds are short stacked they would need a premium hand to call).

A flat call or minimum raise here is not, in my opinion, a valid play here as you are inviting calls or raises from hands that will have at worst 2 overcards and you are then first to act should you even get to see a flop.

Hectorjelly

dropsy wrote:

I think there are only two options here - fold or make a pot committing raise. What you do depends on what you're after from the tournament, how many are on your table (with 15 left it's probably 7 or 8) and what your stack size is like in comparison to the rest of the table. If you are focussed on making the money then folding is the option but if winning or placing high is your goal then a significant raise is a valid play here if calling your raise would put others at the table at significant risk of being eliminated now or soon after (for example, if the CL with 35K is on one of the blinds then you cannot raise here whereas if either or both blinds are short stacked they would need a premium hand to call).

A flat call or minimum raise here is not, in my opinion, a valid play here as you are inviting calls or raises from hands that will have at worst 2 overcards and you are then first to act should you even get to see a flop.

I see where your coming from but I think even if your trying to win you should pass this hand up, going for 1st means not passing up marginal situations; I dont think 33 qualifies as marginal!

dropsy

As you well know HJ, I just wouldn't be able to help myself here......all in

Iago

Evil_Bilbo wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but another 9 coming up would surely give you a full house of 33399 (and only give the other guy 3 nines)?

Imo - you were right to call preflop - I wouldve (wouldve folded on any major raise though)

you're right, my head works faster than my hands and I left out the coup de grace, I've fixed it now..

Iago

Hectorjelly wrote:

I see where your coming from but I think even if your trying to win you should pass this hand up, going for 1st means not passing up marginal situations; I dont think 33 qualifies as marginal!

I would tend to agree, I think I played it badly preflop and it cost me a lot of chips. On the other hand had he not hit the turn and river I'd of being sitting pretty...1 time out of 8 anyway

JuliusFranco

while we're on the subject of yukky pocket pairs...

as i said ealier, i reckon 33 is a fold utg but what about if you're the button with those chips and it's folded around to you? surely, it's a good (but predictable) opportunity for a steal?

if you're on the button and have a few limpers in front of you then maybe a flat call is the way to go?

i ask cos i went out with 55 and 77 two fitz freeroll tournies in a row.
on both occassions, i was low stacked on the button with maybe 6 or 7 BBs in chips and it was folded around to me and I went all in . Both times I was called by the BB who had more chips than me with Ax (2 overcards) and I lost.

i kinda thought when i'm that low i need to try it but then again i'm more likely to be called by 2 overcards...which i suppose is 52/48 in my favour so that's what i want?....right? any advice?

careca

After reading the replies and the spoiler I would still do as Hyz did and flat call. I think you can afford to lose 800 out of 15K in order to try and win what could turn out to be a big pot, ie if a single A comes out.

I take the other points that each chip counts at this stage but you are reasonably healthy. I suppose in the past I've folded marginally better hands in this situation but I would probably have had slightly less chips.

BTW, that was a fairly bad beat in anyones book (and I couldn't give a s**t what the odds were )

Iago

yeah he got some lucky cards all night, he finished 6th in the end but won in about 7 all-in showdowns where he had the worst of it starting out, thems the breaks I suppose, eventually it'll be my turn

dropsy

careca wrote:

After reading the replies and the spoiler I would still do as Hyz did and flat call. I think you can afford to lose 800 out of 15K in order to try and win what could turn out to be a big pot, ie if a single A comes out.
QUOTE]

The problem for me Careca is that a good player at the table with a reasonable stack and a medium strength hand will not let you see the flop for 800. By flat calling there's now 2K in the pot which would (probably) make any raise be at least 2400 and probably 3K. In late position with a similar stack and say, JKo, I would raise this pot. So now, you're being asked for 3K to see a flop - would you still call? (I know this is all if and buts and ultimately Iago got to see his flop for 800 so just playing devil's advocate here).

Dropsy

Waylander

That is why we would only call Dropsy. At least if it raised we can get away from the hand for a cost of 800. Raising to pot commit yourself under the gun is asking for someone to try to steal your raise also. If soemone comes back over the top you have to call, and you are unlikely to be a favourite.

mewso

For me the important factors are the number of players left and what kind of hand you would want calling you (not many). Lets look at the two options I would ignore.

Flat Call
With 13 left or whatever a raise after you limped in is almost a certainty. The tables are short handed and most good players with be making moves with A10/88 etc. O.k there is a chance you will get to see a flop but I don't consider it worth it.

Raise
Surely if you raise pocket 3s it's to take the blinds. I don't fancy a caller anyway so if you manage to take the blinds it's 1200 for taking a large risk. Not worth it imo. If you do want a caller well fine just be prepared to be folding when those inevitable scare cards appear on the flop.

Oh yeah to summarise I would fold. I have to admit though I have flat called these hands in the past but I'm taking the opportunity to think it through here.

DeVore

One option (and I knew a few people who are going to be absolutely aghast when I even suggest this is to flat call and if someone raises you to say 3-4,000 which you figure to be a "no cheap flops" raise, you can go over the top for the lot.

Now before everyone jumps on me, think of it from his perspective. UTG limpage is very weird, there are very few hands at that stage and in that position you might do that with. (AA is one of them oddly enough, though risky). If your opponent can walk away from his raise whistling to himself (and its important that he CAN) then you can represent a monster that you were lying in wait with and maybe re-steal. If he calls you could easily find yourself ahead against AK or other premium non-paired hands.
This is HIGH RISK but also fun and a hellova move.

There are few pleasures in life like resteals. Its the illicit pleasure of using his own move right back at him. The stealer thinks "oh, I made a scary move and instead of backing off he's surprising me with aggression, he must have a monster to do what he's doing!" Plus, if he's REALLY stealing, he cant call your all in anyway.

DeV.

JuliusFranco

that's a move the devilfish himself would be proud of!

it would have to be under those conditions you laid out but hell yeah i like it

Lafortezza

33 utg is a definite fold unless you have an incredibly tight (Gibralter-like) image at the table. If you limp utg then you need the table to be made up of good enough players that they will recognise that a limp utg can mean an AA or KK limp-reraise, then you're more likely to see a cheap flop as they won't risk raising a tight player who could well be holding a monster.

Even still if you limp with 33 and are only going to continue in the hand if you flop a set, then you're going to be hoping that there's about 3 more callers and that both the blinds play as well. Don't you need 5+ callers to get the odds for flopping a set?

At that stage of a tournament with 1 or 2 small stacks at your table its unlikely that there's too many cheap flops. People who need chips will be gambling with Ax suited and KJ type hands, and you really have to fold 33 to an all-in for half your stack.

careca

dropsy wrote:

The problem for me Careca is that a good player at the table with a reasonable stack and a medium strength hand will not let you see the flop for 800. By flat calling there's now 2K in the pot which would (probably) make any raise be at least 2400 and probably 3K. In late position with a similar stack and say, JKo, I would raise this pot. So now, you're being asked for 3K to see a flop - would you still call? (I know this is all if and buts and ultimately Iago got to see his flop for 800 so just playing devil's advocate here).

I take your point dropsy. I would def fold to any raise and basically would be hoping for a cheap flop.

Hectorjelly

lafortezza wrote:

Even still if you limp with 33 and are only going to continue in the hand if you flop a set, then you're going to be hoping that there's about 3 more callers and that both the blinds play as well. Don't you need 5+ callers to get the odds for flopping a set?

Thats a good point that I forgot to mention, if the table is tight enough that you are likely to see a cheap flop, then you are unlikely to get paid off enough to make it worthwhile.

Hitman Actual

lafortezza wrote:

Don't you need 5+ callers to get the odds for flopping a set?

Maybe in limit that holds true, but surely in pot- or no-limit it's all about implied odds with pairs like these? And the way the hand worked out, the flopped set got the money in, which is what you're playing for.

Regarding folding or calling here, if I'm sure that there won't be any preflop raising, then I think a call is ok. But if the game is in any way aggressive (i.e. most games!), then you just muck it straight away.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

One option (and I knew a few people who are going to be absolutely aghast when I even suggest this is to flat call and if someone raises you to say 3-4,000 which you figure to be a "no cheap flops" raise, you can go over the top for the lot.

Now before everyone jumps on me, think of it from his perspective. UTG limpage is very weird, there are very few hands at that stage and in that position you might do that with. (AA is one of them oddly enough, though risky). If your opponent can walk away from his raise whistling to himself (and its important that he CAN) then you can represent a monster that you were lying in wait with and maybe re-steal. If he calls you could easily find yourself ahead against AK or other premium non-paired hands.
This is HIGH RISK but also fun and a hellova move.

There are few pleasures in life like resteals. Its the illicit pleasure of using his own move right back at him. The stealer thinks "oh, I made a scary move and instead of backing off he's surprising me with aggression, he must have a monster to do what he's doing!" Plus, if he's REALLY stealing, he cant call your all in anyway.

DeV.

There are a few problems with this, firstly its very easy for a raiser to inadvertadly pot commit themselves. Secondly this is actually quite a common move with hands like 77 88 or AK (thats what makes it so profitable with AA), so you will still get called by hand like 10 10 and JJ. If you get called it will almost always be by hand that dominates you. People dont fold enough to make this move worthwhile.