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Join Date:Posts: 29920
Hectorjelly wrote:There are a few problems with this, firstly its very easy for a raiser to inadvertadly pot commit themselves. Secondly this is actually quite a common move with hands like 77 88 or AK (thats what makes it so profitable with AA), so you will still get called by hand like 10 10 and JJ. If you get called it will almost always be by hand that dominates you. People dont fold enough to make this move worthwhile.
I did mention that you have to be facing a quite specific set of conditions to make this move work.
1. The raiser has to have NOT pot committed himself.
2. Your table image must be such that you get respect for your limp-reraise. If you've been acting the maggot all night you are likely to get called.
3. Your opponents have to be of the calibre of player who can drop TT (which to be fair is a mucky hand facing a reraise from a decent tight player).
4. Your read has to be that your opponent thinks you can be bullied out of the pot, that he has a hand but that he is keen to take it down (or at least get heads up) pre-flop.
I've used this move in the Fitz sometimes because I've carefully cultivated a Rock image
Most of the time thats actually true (especially compared to some of them!) but it allows me the leverage to shift them off a decent pot.
So we can make arguments for all three options!
Fold: definitely not going to get you into trouble but not going to win you anything either. This will be the most common option and its disciplined. Perhaps a bit too timid but "live to fight another day" etc.
Call: Unless you are sure of what you are doing and have a clear plan for the hand, this is a dodgy option but has the greatest reward if you hit a stealth set or if you bluff him off the pot. Remember you act first and while Hector may consider this "out of position", I'd rather get my raise (all-in) in early if an Ace hits. He doesnt know you've missed your set and must now think about his kicker (if he even HAS an ace). Its not called "The Irish Position" for nothing
Raise: You can go all in on 33. Its a bit bonkers but ok! UTG all in indicates a medium pair that doesnt want to see a flop in my book, though of course its very dependant on the player etc. Typically the rest of the table will simply see the hand as already over and sympathise with the blinds, unless they really have a monster. Loonies with AQ might call you but ok, so be it!
The odds of another pair being out there and sufficently high to call you are in your favour. there are 8 other players: the odds of any one other player holding a pair are 1:17 and it would have to be higher then 88's for the player to call so thats 1:32 (ish) by 8 (note: That is NOT 1:4... 3 players rolling a dice will not give you a 1:2 chance of one of them rolling a 6).
Risky? Hell yeah! This would be my least recommended approach Its dependant on the table image you have and the type of table you are sitting on.
BTW HJ, I used the resteal manouvre on PP cash last night quite nicely! Picked up about 35 bucks in the pot from what I figured was a steal! Spiritus was on the table too as it happens. I was holding 86o UTG and showed them(the table went all weird soon after! )
DeV.0 -
Afraid I can't agree with alot of this...DeVore wrote:So we can make arguments for all three options!
Fold: Perhaps a bit too timid but "live to fight another day" etc.
Call: Unless you are sure of what you are doing and have a clear plan for the hand, this is a dodgy option but has the greatest reward if you hit a stealth set or if you bluff him off the pot. Remember you act first and while Hector may consider this "out of position", I'd rather get my raise (all-in) in early if an Ace hits. He doesnt know you've missed your set and must now think about his kicker (if he even HAS an ace). Its not called "The Irish Position" for nothing
Raise: You can go all in on 33. Its a bit bonkers but ok! UTG all in indicates a medium pair that doesnt want to see a flop in my book, though of course its very dependant on the player etc. Typically the rest of the table will simply see the hand as already over and sympathise with the blinds, unless they really have a monster. Loonies with AQ might call you but ok, so be it!
The odds of another pair being out there and sufficently high to call you are in your favour. there are 8 other players: the odds of any one other player holding a pair are 1:17 and it would have to be higher then 88's for the player to call so thats 1:32 (ish) by 8 (note: That is NOT 1:4... 3 players rolling a dice will not give you a 1:2 chance of one of them rolling a 6).
Risky? Hell yeah! This would be my least recommended approach Its dependant on the table image you have and the type of table you are sitting on.
DeV.
Fold: Nothing wrong with folding 22 up to 66 UTG at this stage of a tournament when you're not a short stack. What do you do if you get reraised all-in for all your chips? When there's 15 left in a tournament its very very rare for a LP plyer not to raise, even with an UTG limper. So fold is the best option, wouldn't call it timid by a long way!
Call: Again you're praying for no raise by the rest (7/8 players) of the table which will include 1 or 2 small stacks willing to gamble with overcards to your small pair.
Also if an Ace flops you're going to bet/bluff all-in on occasion???? :eek: people who call preflop with an ace are hardly going to fold when they actually hit their ace! Dunno what you've been smoking this morning Tom!
Raise: A minimum raise would be about the only raise I'd make holding 33 UTG, it could show strength as its similar to the AA/KK limp-reraise tactic, and the blinds have a decision to make and may just concede.
As for going all-in? Suicide. Almost all the times I've been knocked out of the final table of tournaments have been when I've misplayed 22 up to 88 in earlier postion.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 29920
Call: Again you're praying for no raise by the rest (7/8 players) of the table which will include 1 or 2 small stacks willing to gamble with overcards to your small pair.
Also if an Ace flops you're going to bet/bluff all-in on occasion???? people who call preflop with an ace are hardly going to fold when they actually hit their ace! Dunno what you've been smoking this morning Tom!
I did mention that all three options are not equally viable, I'm just playing Devils Advocate (hiya Davey! ).
However I totally disagree about the early post flop All-in if an Ace hits. If your mythical Ax holder didnt raise preflop then he doesnt have a kicker better then a Jack unless he's been slowplaying AK/AQ, in which case, tough.
So you have someone who limped in with AT and worse and is now facing a raise all in from the UTG limper.
I can guaruntee you there are players in the Fitz who will have got themselves into the situation where they have played A8 and never thought about the "what if an Ace comes but I get a huge bet to me" scenario. You are hoping they are smart enough to drop it, which at that stage of the night they probably are.
Not only that but if the flop comes rags, you can represent an over pair with your All In move. Now you've put them to the question!
Is this risky? Er, yeah, just a bit. Thats why we call it gambling. Is it more risky to simply commit yourself to the Gods of the Cards and fold all but decent premium hands in the right positions? Sometimes I'd rather make my own luck then wait for the deck to hand me the tournie or not.
Please please please, dont read this as "DeV's a maniac who goes ballistic with 33". I'm just pointing out that there is no canon-law about how this must be played. I've done all three with similar hands in similar siutations. "Folding" being by far the most common.
I'm just pointing out that there are creative options that are FAR AWAY from the supposed "best play" approach. In fact I adopt them on occasion BECAUSE they are far from optimal. I'm not a loony. People know I'm not that kind of player so *brief* and *occasional* voyages to loonyland can be VERY profitable for me. Your mileage may vary!
DeV.0 -
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DeVore wrote:Remember you act first and while Hector may consider this "out of position", I'd rather get my raise (all-in) in early if an Ace hits. He doesnt know you've missed your set and must now think about his kicker (if he even HAS an ace). Its not called "The Irish Position" for nothing
Raise: You can go all in on 33. Its a bit bonkers but ok! UTG all in indicates a medium pair that doesnt want to see a flop in my book, though of course its very dependant on the player etc. Typically the rest of the table will simply see the hand as already over and sympathise with the blinds, unless they really have a monster. Loonies with AQ might call you but ok, so be it!
The odds of another pair being out there and sufficently high to call you are in your favour. there are 8 other players: the odds of any one other player holding a pair are 1:17 and it would have to be higher then 88's for the player to call so thats 1:32 (ish) by 8 (note: That is NOT 1:4... 3 players rolling a dice will not give you a 1:2 chance of one of them rolling a 6).
<snip>
BTW HJ, I used the resteal manouvre on PP cash last night quite nicely! Picked up about 35 bucks in the pot from what I figured was a steal! Spiritus was on the table too as it happens. I was holding 86o UTG and showed them(the table went all weird soon after! )
DeV.
Yes its unlikely theres a high PP out there, but if there is and you get called you lose 15k, if there isnt you win 1.2k. This is such a bad risk to reward scenario I wont even bother working out the EV, its a bad play period.
Similarly for going all in on the flop should an ace appear, sure you'll get away with it most of the time but when you dont you'll be out of the tourament 9/10.
The limp reraise resteal is a great move in a cash game, good work. It also means when you do it with AA/kk theres an element of doubt in your opponents hands. I got called for $300 preflop with AQ last night when I had KK, because I had reraised him earlier and shown 67s.0 -
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Sorry didn't log out of account.
POSTED BY: Samba
This is all too familiar only......
I went out on the bubble of one of the Poker Cruise Finals that were being held on Ladbrokes a while back.
Putting down two key hands ensured i went out on the bubble.
33 & Yes, oh Yes 22.
Like advised here (and like i would advise) i put the hands down on two occasions to a minimum raise, on both flops there was a 2 and a 3, the first pot approx. 70k (blinds at 500/1000) was one with A high K kicker. The second pot 40k was won with top pair.
Both times had i flat called with these terrible hands i would have hit the money with alot of room to possibly even go on and win it.
Eventually i got taken out by the blinds in 12th place.....11th place was 8k, and 10-1 a place on the cruise. 0 -
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Davey Devil wrote:It still doesn't make it a bad play to put them down because you 'would' have won the pot. The decision is made pre-flop, what comes on the flop doesn't suddenly make it a bad decision. If i fold my 2,7 for all my chips and the flop comes 2,7,7 does that mean i made a bad decision to lay them down? Of course not. Sometimes then game just wants to give you a kick in the balls.
I couldn't agree more but boy those kicks can hurt sometimes 0
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