Ukraine Civil War - a reality

OfflerCrocGod

Sparks wrote:

arcade, if it didn't work against Bush, why would it work against Yanukovych?

The EU had a trade embargo againts the US? When did this happen?

Sparks

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

The EU had a trade embargo againts the US? When did this happen?

That would have been me making an ironic point...

sovtek

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I say freeze the bank-accounts of all members of the Ukrainian government and those implicated in the rigging of the elections. Also, ban them from travel to the West, impose an arms embargo, an oil-embargo, and a total trade-embargo excluding food and medicines. Then see how long the Russophile clique in the Presidential HQ will hold out.

And just before you do this can you also do exactly the same to the Bush regime.
It's the height of hypocrisy for Colon Power to sit there and demand that the Ukraine not recognize their election because of the disparaty between exit polls and the ballot count.
That's it...I'm moving to the Ukraine.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

arcadegame2004

And just before you do this can you also do exactly the same to the Bush regime.

Those fraud allegations were confined to Florida in 2000 and had credibility because Bush's own brother is Governor of that state. Hardly a reason to impose sanctions against the entire US, whose president then was Clinton and hardly rigged the election against his own Vice-President. :rolleyes:

It's the height of hypocrisy for Colon Power to sit there and demand that the Ukraine not recognize their election because of the disparaty between exit polls and the ballot count.

But ALL the exit-polls in Ukraine found Yuschenko ahead by up to 11%! Not a single exit poll put Yanuckovych ahead. Also, note that in several Eastern pro-Russian parts of Ukraine, the number of voters was higher than the numbers of registered voters. Or do you think the dead voted?

elivsvonchiaing

arcadegame2004 wrote:

But ALL the exit-polls in Ukraine found Yuschenko ahead by up to 11%! Not a single exit poll put Yanuckovych ahead. Also, note that in several Eastern pro-Russian parts of Ukraine, the number of voters was higher than the numbers of registered voters. Or do you think the dead voted?

Think you might find the result of voters of Chernobyl - illuminating

Sparks

It would be interesting to compare the exit poll disparaties in the Ukraine with those in Ohio...

Redleslie2

Who paid for the exit polls.

SkepticOne

sovtek wrote:

And just before you do this can you also do exactly the same to the Bush regime.
It's the height of hypocrisy for Colon Power to sit there and demand that the Ukraine not recognize their election because of the disparaty between exit polls and the ballot count.
That's it...I'm moving to the Ukraine.

It's great that there's people here defending the right of the Ukraine to a rigged election. Why should the US be the only ones to enjoy this privilage.

Oleg, you must be pleased that there's people here willing to defend you against the bullying US! If you lot want a rigged election, go right ahead. You have our full support. We stand against hypocracy here.

SkepticOne

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

That's why I think we should also "stand in", after all aren't there reports of Russian SF in the east of the country? I just hope and wish that the EU has the balls for it.

At the moment the EU are have sat in on negotiations between the two sides as did Russia. It looks like the EU are taking slightly more interest in events than I would have imagined but I don't think the EU would intervene to prevent a civil war. Most likely a civil war would have to get started before such an intervention.

The talks have ended without agreement and Yushchenko has rejected an offer to go with the courts decision on the election. Instead he is calling for a re-election and is threatening continued protest until such time. He is insisting that protests remain peaceful but, of course, this can't be guaranteed with people on the streets.

It is interesting that he seems to have the support of the police and that the main TV station have come out in favour of him.

Journalists in Ukraine seem to have responded to the call by opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko for them to reject government censorship.

A correspondent on the state channel, UT1, announced live on the evening bulletin that the entire news team was going to join the protests in Independence Square. She said their message to the protesters was: "We are not lying anymore". url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4044791.stm]source[/url

Things seem to be working out in favour of Yushchenko but he is relying fully on the protesters staying on the streets until he achieves success. What happens if they gradually start to lose interest?

sovtek

SkepticOne wrote:

It's great that there's people here defending the right of the Ukraine to a rigged election. Why should the US be the only ones to enjoy this privilage.

Oleg, you must be pleased that there's people here willing to defend you against the bullying US! If you lot want a rigged election, go right ahead. You have our full support. We stand against hypocracy here.

Not what I was saying....
I just wished that all hell was breaking loose in America over another, possibly rigged, election...and even more hell over the Bush regime's policy of "do as we say, not as we do".

bonkey

sovtek wrote:

Not what I was saying....
I just wished that all hell was breaking loose in America over another, possibly rigged, election...and even more hell over the Bush regime's policy of "do as we say, not as we do".

Well, in fairness, the election in the Ukraine - from what we can tell - is far more clearly corrupted.

There may, or may not, have been engineered irregularities in the US election (which in itself should warrant scrutiny, I agree) but that is a far far cry from what pretty-much every supposedly neutral observer is stating is the widespread case in the Ukraine.

jc

sovtek

bonkey wrote:

Well, in fairness, the election in the Ukraine - from what we can tell - is far more clearly corrupted.

There may, or may not, have been engineered irregularities in the US election (which in itself should warrant scrutiny, I agree) but that is a far far cry from what pretty-much every supposedly neutral observer is stating is the widespread case in the Ukraine.

jc

I agree that it's probably alot more pervasive and pronounced in the Ukraine...but I think the principle is the same.
I also wonder how close America's election would ever be scrutinized by international observers...but then maybe I'm just paraniod (and what Kurt said).

Redleslie2

I think the media coverage has been pretty poor and people's eagerness to take everything at face value is a bit pathetic. There's an article in The Guardian about it.The western media's view of Ukraine's election is hopelessly biased.

Plunging into the crowd of Yushchenko supporters in Independence Square after the first round of the election, I met two members of Una-Unso, a neo-Nazi party whose emblem is a swastika. They were unembarrassed about their allegiance, perhaps because last year Yushchenko and his allies stood up for the Socialist party newspaper, Silski Visti, after it ran an anti-semitic article claiming that Jews had invaded Ukraine alongside the Wehrmacht in 1941. On September 19 2004, Yushchenko's ally, Alexander Moroz, told JTA-Global Jewish News: "I have defended Silski Visti and will continue to do so. I personally think the argument ... citing 400,000 Jews in the SS is incorrect, but I am not in a position to know all the facts." Yushchenko, Moroz and their oligarch ally, Yulia Tymoshenko, meanwhile, cited a court order closing the paper as evidence of the government's desire to muzzle the media. In any other country, support for anti-semites would be shocking; in this case, our media do not even mention it.

Both sides look just about as hopeless as each other to me.

Redleslie2

Just make this woman queen ffs.

SkepticOne

sovtek wrote:

Not what I was saying....
I just wished that all hell was breaking loose in America over another, possibly rigged, election...and even more hell over the Bush regime's policy of "do as we say, not as we do".

Well, you must be really angry with John Kerry (the real president of the US) who doesn't appear to be doing much about it. And it didn't help that the Democrats campaign was somewhat lack lustre and failed to capture the vote of large sections of the population and that Kerry probably wasn't the best candidate that could have been put up by his party.

Personally, I don't think what Colin Powel says matters too much in this instance. Although the US might marginally prefer a western facing Ukraine, they don't appear to have a great interest in the matter.

We need to be able to evaluate events independently of what the US thinks or wants and this means that we need to stop being obsessed with them. The Ukraine situation is interesting in its own right.

sovtek

SkepticOne wrote:

Well, you must be really angry with John Kerry (the real president of the US) who doesn't appear to be doing much about it. And it didn't help that the Democrats campaign was somewhat lack lustre and failed to capture the vote of large sections of the population and that Kerry probably wasn't the best candidate that could have been put up by his party.

Yes I do think Kerry was a political coward and the Demo's screwed themselves by spending so much time and money on trying to get rid of Nader.
At the end of the day they just want to be Republicans.
Kerry also promised to "count every vote and.....blah blah blah" a promise that lasted less than a day.
Unlike Kerry, Nader is still presiding over recounts and pointing out election fraud.

Personally, I don't think what Colin Powel says matters too much in this instance. Although the US might marginally prefer a western facing Ukraine, they don't appear to have a great interest in the matter.

I don't know about the Ukraine in particular but they are definetly interested in their influence in the former Eastern Bloc.
Of course what Powell says probably isn't going to hold alot of sway in the Ukraine...but it speaks volumes about how they operate.

We need to be able to evaluate events independently of what the US thinks or wants and this means that we need to stop being obsessed with them.

I might be obsessed with the US government because that's who issues my passort.
What they think or do has alot of implications in the world now-a-days.

The Ukraine situation is interesting in its own right.

True. I'm probably just jealous of their democratic zeal.

Redleslie2

sovtek wrote:

Kerry also promised to "count every vote and.....blah blah blah" a promise that lasted less than a day.

I think the dems took a look at the mess they would have inherited if they'd won and said to themselves that they'd be mad to have to want to deal with it. Let the crazies finish ruining the place and get so many troops killed that they'll be unelectable for a term or two.

SkepticOne

Redleslie2 wrote:

Let the crazies finish ruining the place and get so many troops killed that they'll be unelectable for a term or two.

Could this possibly explain the whole Democrat approach to the campaign? Put up someone like Kerry thus guaranteeing a Bush win. Hold back the decent candidates till 2008. Where's me tinfoil hat?

Anyway, it doesn't look like the Ukrainians have time for such nonsense. Major flaws recognised by international authorities and an active fight for another election under stricter supervision and even the state police and media coming out in support of the contender.

OfflerCrocGod

Is Kerry campaigning in Ukraine now?