Irish Christmas Festival on VC

DapperGent

Does anyone know how these satellites work? There's one on VC in a few hours with $2000 packages up for graps but looking here:

http://www.pokerineurope.com/majortournaments/schedule.php?tournamentid=2004054

The main tournament is only a €500 buy in.

Is the rest of the package there for flights if someone from the states wins it? Do you just get the rest of the cash if you don't need flights or accomodation?

There's no info on VC for this. Just curious if anyone knows.

Hectorjelly

The rest if just expenses money, you can spend it however you want.

DapperGent

Might have a go so. Anyone else popping into it?

Hectorjelly

DapperGent wrote:

Might have a go so. Anyone else popping into it?

Id love to buy Im not sure how to play sattelites, I know that you should change your strategy but Im not sure how.

DapperGent

You're not aiming to win just aiming to not finish on the bubble.

To my mind things only change when you get near the prizes, ie no craziness to win chips and a better chance of first. Just being all tight and surviving.

I dunno if there'll be too much interest in it so I wouldn't see there being more than one or two packages which would mean even less of a change to general strategy.

dropsy

Hectorjelly wrote:

Id love to buy Im not sure how to play sattelites, I know that you should change your strategy but Im not sure how.

Given that there's probably only going to be one ticket, I'd imagine regular strategy aimed at winning a tourney would do here. It is somewhat different in situations where there are multiple tickets up for grabs.

Pre Flop aggression should see you right HJ - you know how to do that?

Waylander

The amount of tickets usually depends on the number of entrants, at least that is the set up on Laddies. If this is the case, once you build up a big stack only play monster hands. You only need enough chips to get placed, so if you manage to amass a big stack tighten right up and only play hands you are certain you are ahead, and steal the occasional blinds as long as you can keep absorbing the blinds. There is no real advantage to being chip leader in this, as CL will normally get the same prize as the other placed finishers.

Hectorjelly

Most of the sattelites on VC pay only one, so playing tight isnt the answer.

DapperGent

Yeah I had a look at it and when it looked to be paying only one I decided to give it a miss. The bubble being second place is no kind of multi I want to be involved in.

Shortstack

DapperGent wrote:

Yeah I had a look at it and when it looked to be paying only one I decided to give it a miss. The bubble being second place is no kind of multi I want to be involved in.

Maybe you are thinking too short term. Here is why:

Assuming you are a good multi table tournament player with a hign ratio of wins per entry. Not sure what would be classed as high but I have won 12 out of 200 or so. Aproximatley 5%.
Now the math.
Assume all the tournaments have 100 runners.
Assume entry fee is €100.
Assume they all pay 100% to winner.
Out of 100 tournies you would win 5*€10000 = €50,000

Now assume all the same but winner gets 30%
Out of 100 tournies your 1st prizes would be 5*€3000 = €15,000

Question : Do you think all your placings would add up to €35,000 ?

At the end of the day you should be aiming for first in any tournament and if you want to make any money in tournaments over a long period then you need to play for first.

Waylander

We are talking about satellittes here though shortstack. You do not win cash, you win entry to another tournament.

Hectorjelly

Shortstack wrote:

At the end of the day you should be aiming for first in any tournament and if you want to make any money in tournaments over a long period then you need to play for first.

I always play for first, but one of the reasons I do well is there comes a stage in every tournament when other players batten down the hatches and try and sneak up the places; this obviously wont happen in a winner takes all format. Also in terms of varience, winner take all events are very bad news.

Krusty_Clown

Shortstack wrote:

...but I have won 12 out of 200 or so. Aproximatley 5%.

Out of curiosity, anybody else care to give examples of their win rates on MTTs?
Lately I've been winning (1st) about 50/60% of my STTs (only $10), but haven't had a huge amount of success in the MTTs - lot's of placings, usually in the free-rolls, but nothing significant..

Waylander

I have a similar rate in the stt to yourself Krusty. In MTT, I have only won a couple but I have started hitting the money allot mare frequently recently. I only made a concerted effort on mtt in the last 6 weeks or so.

Hectorjelly

There is no way that you are winning 50% of STTS you play. This would give a ROI of about 400% even if you finished out of the money every time you didnt win. A very good player playing against complete morons would aim to have a ROI of about 50%. If anyone ever claims to have an ROI in stts of over 50% they have either cracked the poker room, have such a small sample size that the results are insignificent, or are lying.

Edit: Its actually about 250%, & my guess would be you havent played enough for the numbers to mean much yet.

DapperGent

Hectorjelly wrote:

If anyone ever claims to have an ROI in stts of over 50% they have either cracked the poker room, have such a small sample size that the results are insignificent, or are lying.

2 + 2 is great isn't it?

Thanks for the cheers from the rails last night btw. Went out 21st in the end. 18 got paid. D'oh.

Hectorjelly

DapperGent wrote:

2 + 2 is great isn't it?

Thanks for the cheers from the rails last night btw. Went out 21st in the end. 18 got paid. D'oh.

Yep, they have t-shirts coming out soon; I cant wait. I had your table open but didnt notice you get knocked out, what happened? All the hand history said was that you lost to a flush.

Hectorjelly

What is a good ROI for SnGs

25% ok
25% - 35% good
35% - 40% very good
40% - 45% excellent
45% - 50% probably unsustainable
50%+ one of: unsustainable, your lying, you have hacked the poker room


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=844952&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1

Krusty_Clown

Hectorjelly wrote:

There is no way that you are winning 50% of STTS you play. This would give a ROI of about 400% even if you finished out of the money every time you didnt win. A very good player playing against complete morons would aim to have a ROI of about 50%. If anyone ever claims to have an ROI in stts of over 50% they have either cracked the poker room, have such a small sample size that the results are insignificent, or are lying.

Edit: Its actually about 250%, & my guess would be you havent played enough for the numbers to mean much yet.

You're absolutely correct, it's based on a small sample size. I don't play online often enough to have a larger sample, so it's based on the last 7 days (I aso don't use poker-tracker).. I should have qualified that. So in the last 7 days, in $10 stts, I have come 1st in 5 games, and not finished in the top-3 for the remaining 2.

But anyway, I would be keen to see statistics from those with larger samples specifically for MTTs...

Hectorjelly

Krusty_Clown wrote:

You're absolutely correct, it's based on a small sample size. I don't play online often enough to have a larger sample, so it's based on the last 7 days (I aso don't use poker-tracker).. I should have qualified that. So in the last 7 days, in $10 stts, I have come 1st in 5 games, and not finished in the top-3 for the remaining 2.

But anyway, I would be keen to see statistics from those with larger samples specifically for MTTs...

The problem with mtts is that the varience is so huge that would need a huuuggeee sample to be even vaguely sure of your ROI. Ive been keeping detailed records of online MTTS since Septemember, just for the 7.5k on VC Ive entered it about 30times, won it three times and finished 4th once. Its kind of weird that I have never made it to the money apart those four.

Krusty_Clown

The reason why I'm asking, is that very occasionally I'll venture into say the 1.5K guaranteed mtt on VC, and while I'll typically make it to the last 40/50, I haven't met with any success (apart from small wins in AP free-rolls).. So I'm at the point where I'm wondering if I should just continue with the STTs where I have a lot more success, or keep trying with the MTTs in the hope of the 'big payoff'.

At what point should I get discouraged and realise that the MTTs are not for me?

So I might play maybe 10/15 games online per week. 7 or 8 of these will be $10 STTs where I perform well, and bring my cashier levels up, then I'll try some MTTs which brings the cashier levels back down, thus back to the $10 STTs. Account goes up, and back down again.. I haven't lodged any money in months, which is cool, but I'm not having any significant gains..

DapperGent

Shortstack wrote:

Maybe you are thinking too short term. Here is why:

Although you make some interesting points, as has been alluded to earlier I think tournaments would play very differently if it was a winner takes all situtation. I'd imagine they'd be very messy which is why I didn't bother with that VC satellite. There would have to be 3 or more prizes to make a tournament worth the effort to my mind.

Hectorjelly wrote:

I had your table open but didnt notice you get knocked out, what happened? All the hand history said was that you lost to a flush.

I had done the damage a little earlier with a poor bluff after calling a min raise in the BB. I was knocked back to about 12k. How I went out was pretty interesting I still dunno if I should have waited for a better spot.

The player directly to my left was disconnected from the tournament and autofolding with about 10k in chips. Blinds were 800-1600 I think. There was one player at the table who was taking advantage of this and raising everytime the AFKer was on the big blind (my small) after a couple of passes it was quite clear to me that he was doing it on marginal or perhaps even any two cards. Knocked back as I was I decided to reraise the next time he tried.

So I had about 11k and the raiser made it 4k to go again on the AFK's BB I would have pushed with any two cards I would have preferred rags to the Q8s I found (it's a monster!). There was 4000+1600+800=6400 so when I pushed my 11k making it 7k more to him I thought I had a good chance of folding a marginal holding. Especially seeing as it would have knocked him back to about 6K if he lost (I think).

He thought for ages (nearly all the tank - torture) and call with QJo which had me rightly fúcked and he hit a flush he didn't need with four spades on the board.

I still dunno if it was the right move. I think the trouble was that my stack wasn't big enough to put him off even marginal cards like those. I think I would have folded in his spot given that it was bubble time but I'm not sure.

Hectorjelly

Krusty_Clown wrote:

The reason why I'm asking, is that very occasionally I'll venture into say the 1.5K guaranteed mtt on VC, and while I'll typically make it to the last 40/50, I haven't met with any success (apart from small wins in AP free-rolls).. So I'm at the point where I'm wondering if I should just continue with the STTs where I have a lot more success, or keep trying with the MTTs in the hope of the 'big payoff'.

At what point should I get discouraged and realise that the MTTs are not for me?

So I might play maybe 10/15 games online per week. 7 or 8 of these will be $10 STTs where I perform well, and bring my cashier levels up, then I'll try some MTTs which brings the cashier levels back down, thus back to the $10 STTs. Account goes up, and back down again.. I haven't lodged any money in months, which is cool, but I'm not having any significant gains..

If your playing mtts then you really need to be thinking long term; you are destined to finish out of the money more often than not no matter how good you are. Doing well in STTS is a good basis for success in MTTs. What about playing a lot of the smaller mtts (less than $10)? Each one you play is good practice, and it wont deplete your bankroll.

Hectorjelly

DapperGent wrote:

The player directly to my left was disconnected from the tournament and autofolding with about 10k in chips. Blinds were 800-1600 I think. There was one player at the table who was taking advantage of this and raising everytime the AFKer was on the big blind (my small) after a couple of passes it was quite clear to me that he was doing it on marginal or perhaps even any two cards. Knocked back as I was I decided to reraise the next time he tried.

So I had about 11k and the raiser made it 4k to go again on the AFK's BB I would have pushed with any two cards I would have preferred rags to the Q8s I found (it's a monster!). There was 4000+1600+800=6400 so when I pushed my 11k making it 7k more to him I thought I had a good chance of folding a marginal holding. Especially seeing as it would have knocked him back to about 6K if he lost (I think).

He thought for ages (nearly all the tank - torture) and call with QJo which had me rightly fúcked and he hit a flush he didn't need with four spades on the board.

I still dunno if it was the right move. I think the trouble was that my stack wasn't big enough to put him off even marginal cards like those. I think I would have folded in his spot given that it was bubble time but I'm not sure.

Well its a difficult position to be in because you dont have enough chips to really put him to the test. One option that you had because you were out of position was to attempt a stop and go. Call the raise and push on the flop regardless, this is a great move when used correctly. You dont have enough chips to push him off preflop, but its hard for him to call on the flop unless hes hit hit top pair. Note that you dont lose anything by doing this if he hits the flop hard and calls, as if you had of just pushed preflop he would of called anyway; same result.

The important thing is to push regardless of what flops, a flop of AKx might be scary to you with Q8, but it can be just as scary to him.

I think your opponent played the hand badly, I think if I were him I would of called; but he put himself in a awkard position. At that stage of the game a very important skll is bet sizing, your bet size should be for a reason. His bet was small enough to tempt you to push him off his hand, and with JQ he really doesnt want this to happen. It would of been fine if he had Ak, or AA and wants a raise, or if he had 25o and would have no probelem folding. He should of made it enough so that you would have no doubt that he would call. Hard for you to call all in with Q8s! He should of made it 8 or 9k.

Rodge

DapperGent wrote:

2 + 2 is great isn't it?

Thanks for the cheers from the rails last night btw. Went out 21st in the end. 18 got paid. D'oh.

Was that the freeroll on VC? I was watching that as well where you had J10 and the fella that beat you had AJ.

I could actually smell your aces when you were in the small blind a few hands before that and raised to almost all in. Twas a very nice play though.

DapperGent

Rodge wrote:

Was that the freeroll on VC? I was watching that as well where you had J10 and the fella that beat you had AJ.

I could actually smell your aces when you were in the small blind a few hands before that and raised to almost all in. Twas a very nice play though.

It was the 7.5k I went out of in 21st. I played both the 5k and 2.5k freerolls last night as well, but I can't really remember how I went out of them though I think it was fairly early in both. At one stage I was going well in both the 5k and 7.5k and was thinking of glory.

Alas twas not to be!

Iago

spare a thought for me Dapper, I was playing in the $600 guaranteed, which had grown to over $1k with rebuys, we were down to 40 players I had an above average stack of about 17K when my BB connection went down and didn't bother coming back up!!

I honestly believe I had a great chance of winning it, I had two players on my table who were playing very loose and had amassed big stacks through luck, it was only a matter of time before I busted them...but time ran out for me

First place was only about $300 or so but still...

DapperGent

That's fúcking harsh. I've yet to have my connection go south at a critical time but I can imagine the frustration.

karlh

DapperGent wrote:

That's fúcking harsh. I've yet to have my connection go south at a critical time but I can imagine the frustration.

playing VC MTT recently and went to clean my mouse. its a cheap ****e one and i managed to break one of the rollers and couldnt even get the ball back in.

let me just say that you need a mouse to play online poker.

Krusty_Clown

Hectorjelly wrote:

If your playing mtts then you really need to be thinking long term; you are destined to finish out of the money more often than not no matter how good you are. Doing well in STTS is a good basis for success in MTTs. What about playing a lot of the smaller mtts (less than $10)? Each one you play is good practice, and it wont deplete your bankroll.

Hehe.. Went on to win 2 MTTs in a row this morning..
The two pokers I got dealt didn't hurt either..