Self build

mikewest

Has anyone ever attempted a build a house themselves with only the minimum of outside help. We are in the situation of needing a house but finances will not permit a typical mortage however we can get a site and I can do all of the work except plastering and roofing (never done either but may try the roofing). The only costs apart from admin / planning / development fees will be materials which haven't gone up as much as labour in the last few years. I have access to the vast majority of tools necessary for a build including an excavator and cement mixer but I don't have any ready help i.e. no brothers / father and kids way too small. It would just be herself and myself doing the work.
If you've done it how long did it take, was it worth it, am I completely crazy to contemplate this? and no I'm not just messing posting at this time just skiving off night shift for a while.

kadman

Hi mikewest,

You have definitely come to the right place, as there are numerous selfbuilders here.

Definitely do as much research on the subject as you can , before you actually start building. If the finances are a bit tight , a tf build may be the option for you. Once the foundations are down, a typical timberframe kit would take only weeks to erect to the roof level, at least this will allow you to have an erected shell fairly quickly.

You would have the option of getting the tf company to erect, or alternatively you could erect your self, and save a few more bob.

This would allow you to tackle the other works, while letting someone else give you the shell as a starting point.

And no you are not crazy to contemplate it, if you have time, patience, an understanding other half, staying power ect.....

kadman

yop

Mikewest,

welcome to boards and hope we can help

In the middle of a "self build" myself down here in Mayo, going the TF route.

Are you crazy to take it on, all depends on the person, are you handy and willing to do a bit of research on the topic you don't know about, willing for the hours and will to put up with the crap that goes with it.

You really need to have some idea of what you are facing, a basic knowledge I think is required.

But if you want to save money, have a good interest in building your own hut then it is one of the best buzzes about

Best of luck

rooferPete

Hi Mike.....

I know that you will not be the first to have undertaken building their home with limited experienced help or even a good general labourer, no disrespect to your good wife.

There is a blog I came across by accident where a couple did a similar project I think it's around the north west area, however they did not have the responsibility of young children to consider.

One house that I know of took the gent almost twenty years to complete, I expect that building a home while the mobile home was going down hill was the cause of a lot of stress, but that said I was not part of the project and it could be a case of they enjoyed each days work.

The advice I would offer is try to use the limited outside help for the important sections such as electrical work.

Crazy ?

There are some who would say there are two of us in it

Seriously though you can build the house to a finish as you go design, think of begining with an apartment style home with a large living area with kitchen combined.

As the children get older you can complete their individual space as you progress, it would be a bit like trading up in the property market to suit your needs.

As for the roof, you don't have to worry, there are a lot of fairly easy to fit systems where at worst you may have to call on tradesmen to complete technical details, that expense can be vastly reduced at design stage.

I wish you every sucess and look forward to reading about your progress.

.

mikewest

Thanks for the replys folks.

Yop, I will be building in your end of the country if we actually go ahead with the project, county Roscommon. I actually read your blog before posting and I have to say that it sounds like you put in some hellish long days in bad weather at the beginning, saying that your experiences convinced me that it may be a runner to try this way to get us a house of our own. No more renting.

Kadman, just a question is timber frame not more expensive than block if I blocklay myself. I would certainly consider tf if it is cheaper but I thought (without any evidence) that the reason it was cheaper is that blocklayers were so expensive. I have done some blockwork in the past but would need to improve my skills to block a house if it wasn't to be a nightmare to plaster.

rooferpete, nice to know there is another nut out there . When we finally agree the budget I will know how much outside help we can afford. We are thinking bungalow with attic suitable for conversion at a later date. As it stands I can do the following foundations, subfloor, blockwork (ish), first and second fix carpentry, first and second fix plumbing (will have to study central heating systems but all rest no probs) first and second fix electrical and can get one of the lads I work with to sign off (plenty of qualified sparks). What I have never done is roofing and plastering. I was thinking of putting a stone effect cladding on the outside and slab and tape the inside to cut down on plastering as much as possible but this is only the vaguest of ideas at the moment. I also prefer boarded ceilings to slabbed so that is one less thing. p.s. was that yops blog or another ?

We still have to agree budget, find the money and get planning permission but maybe we are on the road to somewhere at last because the planning has begun.

the_syco

The most important bit, imho, is the foundation, and the stuff that you need there, such as a good solid foundation (dig a foot or two beyond the "hard" stuff is usually needed), and the pipes for sewage / electricity.

Finally, you'll need a qualified electrican. ESB won't connect your house to their supply without a cert from one saying that your house/their box won't blow up when its connected.

mikewest

Syco, just been reading on the reci website that you can get a non certified electrician to do the work and get a reci inspector to cert it for a fee. Anyway that is one of the few things I don't have to worry about.


can't spell at this stage ah well time to go home for a good days sleep soon.

Builderwoman!

Mikewest, go for it! We are in the middle of a build at mo, don't think we can call it a self build as we are hiring in all the trades and just doing the site clean up and I am doing all the product and labour sourcing. (A big job in itself and time consuming!) Your wife could do this anyway for materials easily. I would advise her to shop around. Get plenty of advice and bargain with everyone. You can find good value out there. If you can do so much of the work yourselves, while it will be slow, you would be surprise how much can be done over a few days. You are right to build a house that you can convert the attic later but I would say to you put in the provisions for plumbing when you are building and the velux and then the conversion will be much easier later. My bro has a house that could be converted easily but the lack of plumbing and velux are a real put off now. If you do these to things in the beginning you will be so pleased later.

Regarding finances, talk to a mortgage broker. You will be surprised how much help they can be in this department. Make an appointment and see from there - it's worth spending the half hour with them. Also talk to your local Credit Union. I would advise that you will most likely need the services of an architect for planning. There are plenty of reasonable ones around and an engineer for the build. Bargain with them and you will be better deals! Good luck and keep us posted.

patrido

Hi mikewest,

yeah you're definitely mad

I'm in the middle of a self build (haven't hired anyone yet, 16 months into the build) and I'd go along with most of the previous posts.

You have several advantages in that you have many of the skills already and that certainly makes things a lot easier. Having qualified and experienced mates who can provide a bit of advice or info as you go along will help a lot too.

I know saving cash is important, but unless you also have a degree in engineering, I would make hiring an engineer a priority. In my opinion, it is very important to stick to the building regs... they might be a pain in the ass, and sometimes seem overspecced, but they will help make your house warm, dry, structurally sound, energy efficient, worth more, etc. All of the regs are there for a good reason. Your engineer will be a good person to ask questions of at any stage of the build. You might even find someone who would do it as a nixer at a much lower cost, but make sure they know what they're talking about. Professional indemnity, upon which an engineers career depends, is a great way of filtering out the bullsh1t. In my view, a self build is only worth doing, if the end product will be at least as good as if you paid someone to do it. Otherwise, you're cheating yourself.

Buy lots of books - i'd start with mark brinkley's housebuilding bible, the homebond building manual, the etci wiring rules and that big collins diy book (which has lots on heating iirc).

Other essentials are an understanding partner - self builds will put a strain on any relationship (i find that men love the experience of building a house, and the wife just wants it finished). Wives know how to make things happen though, and make great project managers

And lot's of help is essential. Experienced help is obviously great - my dad and dad-in-law and their mates have been a massive help to us. But it's also great when a mate offers a saturday here and there. Mates with diggers, teleporters, tractors, trailers, nail guns, chop saws, wall chasers, kangos, etc are great too

Blocks are definitely cheaper than a tf, especially if you're not paying for labour, but they'll take an awful lot longer to build as you know. They do have huge advantages in terms of sound insulation and thermal mass. There is considerable evidence that concrete built houses can be just as warm as tf, if you put in the same amount of insulation (whatever you skimp on, don't let it be insulation).

Yeah, for a total €363 IIRC, reci will send out an inspector twice... once before connection, and once after connection, and give you a completion cert for the esb. You probably know this already, but while domestic wiring is quite easy for anyone who knows how, the wiring rules are quite complex and strict now, and have changed quite a lot in the last few years. What was considered safe and normal 5 years ago will not meet the grade today.

In terms of saving money... well, I don't think I'm saving anything and I suppose it's not really why I'm doing it. Much of what we're saving in labour, is being spent on upspeccing other areas. For example, instead of going for a cheaper underfloor heating system we're going for a higher spec system, and self installing. Similarly, we're spending lots more on insulation. Also, unless you earn less than half of what you'd be paying a builder, you will be losing money just by doing it. I use the figure half, because I reckon everything will take twice as long as someone who does it every day. On the other hand you'll have the benefit of being able to buy at the right time to save money... we bought 10k worth of travertine, and 9.5k worth of junckers flooring for about half the price last january.

on the finance side, there are specialist self build mortgages, which give you money up front, instead of paying at the end of stages, which puts much more pressure on. we didn't know about them in time, and have a bridging loan (though at a very good rate instead) as well as the mortgage. I don't know who does them, but I've seen them advertised in one of the self build magazines... or as builderwoman said, your broker should know.

sorry for the very long post... best of luck, keep us informed - a blog would be great, and take lots and lots of pictures.

mikewest

Hi Builderwoman!, patrido,
I've been reading some of both of your posts the last few days very interesting and different from the experiences talking to locals. Interesting advice about mortage brokers will have to get the financial consultant to look into that although she will be taking over as project manager anyway. Don't put me in charge of anything to do with finances .
Did I see you use stone effect caldding in a photo patrido or was that someone elses post. If it was you how does it compare on cost and complexity to build versus blocks. 16 months and still going ... I had hoped that it would take 12 to 18 months from laying foundations to something liveable not necessarily finished.

Do we really need both architect and engineer? I had hoped to prepare designs get an engineer to do them up properly and use engineer to oversee the major stages. Not an engineer yet and if I start a build not for a good while. I dont think its possible to work, build, and study at the one time although maybe short OU courses may be in the mix. Unfortunately we won't be upspecing too much unless we win the lotto however the insulation all round will be the best we can afford and underfloor heating for a currently stay at home mammy.

Builderwoman!

Hi Mikewest, good on you! You are anyone can prepare plans using CAD (or other prog) or indeed the old fashioned way by hand. I am not sure that the engineer would help too much at the design stage or help you finalise plans, they don't in my experience. You could do most of the design work yourself and then get a trainee architect to do up the set of plans for planning permission. Then later once you have pp you can engage the services of an engineer. Shop around. You'd be surprised the difference in price. You will need him/her to sign off on the various stages of the build starting with foundation prep and then the foundation pouring etc. I really would recommend you visit a mortgage broker. You'd be surprised how much they can do to help. Good luck, keep us updated. We are always pleased to have fellow lunatic builders on board!!!!!

patrido

mikewest wrote:

Did I see you use stone effect caldding in a photo patrido or was that someone elses post. If it was you how does it compare on cost and complexity to build versus blocks.

it's hallmark made by roadstone. It is 4 inches thick so it serves as the outer leaf of your cavity wall. it's pretty similar to building blocks but can be more time consuming depending on the pattern you use. if you bring it to course, it's very easy. but the nicest looking pattern is random, and this is a bit more time consuming. it also makes sealing the windows a bit more difficult.

you have to take care to protect it from rain until the mortar sets (or it will wash out of the joints and all over the face of the stone). Also rub the joints with a bar the next day to seal it and make it look a bit nicer. oh, and start on the wall that will be seen least

can't remember the price, but it's a good bit more than blocks. However, as you no longer need a plasterer, I think it works out about the same ... give roadstone a call and they'll tell you the price and send out a brochure. there are other products on the market... try the magazines or the trade shows.

mikewest wrote:

16 months and still going ... I had hoped that it would take 12 to 18 months from laying foundations to something liveable not necessarily finished.

Do we really need both architect and engineer? I had hoped to prepare designs get an engineer to do them up properly and use engineer to oversee the major stages. Not an engineer yet and if I start a build not for a good while. I dont think its possible to work, build, and study at the one time although maybe short OU courses may be in the mix. Unfortunately we won't be upspecing too much unless we win the lotto however the insulation all round will be the best we can afford and underfloor heating for a currently stay at home mammy.

...and we'll be at least another 6-8 months. but if you modularise the build it could be done a lot quicker. also keeping it simple - sloped sites or boggy sites requiring a raft, dormers, bay windows, balconies, split levels, sunrooms, etc can add lots of time to a self build. the simpler you keep things, the quicker it will be.

I like builderwoman's suggestion... in fact most engineering (particularly a cert/diploma course) or architecture students could put plans together in autocad and that will save a few quid on architects fees. or even the construction studies/technical drawing teacher in the local school. though someone who has prepared plans for pp before has a better chance of getting past the planners first time. you could buy a set of plans rather than a custom design, or get them from one of the many house plans books that are in all the book shops.

mikewest

I have to say I am getting lots of ideas from you lot and they are changing my initial ideas of what is possible. The financial manager has started the slow trail of getting funding and today is pencilled in as the first project managment lunch meting . As I'm reading it is more and more clear that despite the hurdles placed in the way of a self builder demanding that they get the services of professionals for this and that it is still possible to do most things yourself and still get the required paperwork done without paying an arm and leg. Builderwoman! ever consider a career in project management as already you seem to have more talent in that area than many I've worked with.patrido thanks for that will get on to Roadstone.

If we have plans done for after Christmas and are able to go looking for pp by Feb than we will be doing well. There could be a pp issue with the site (archelogical heritage but nowhere near the site) although one 200 m up the road got full pp 2 years ago. There are no other new builds in the area for years.

Builderwoman!

Hi mikewest, thanks for the compliment...and no this is a once off effort to get us the new house we have been waiting many years for! Have to say it is enjoyable. As I said in another post one brother in law wanted to "do us a favour" and was going to charge us "an arm and two legs for it" (if you know what I mean!) and he seemed to think that only he could do it. However I think that he is a bit surprised now that the roof is on and the first fixes are happening inside! No matter what things have to take their course when you are building. You have to shop around for products, services etc. You have to be patient and in order to get the best out of people be nice to them. I have found that to work for me anyway. Apparently I have one of the most akward blocklayers jumping through hoops according to one of our carpenters! He can't get over it. The blocklayer is more laid back than akward really and I find him ok. I also have a rule to get rid of cowboys/messers very early on. If they meet with me and promise a quote and don't get back to me after a few phonecalls then I look elsewhere. (One local window company got a fright with me recently.... he measured and gave me the quote which I thought was acceptable for windows and then I sent him off to get a quote for the exact door we wanted...after three phonecalls he didn't bother coming back to me with the final price...when he phoned about two weeks later he was surprised to find that I had already placed the order elsewhere. He said he was hoping to get the job I said "you would have had it had you returned my calls, I just thought you weren't interested when you didn't phone me back". I think he learned a valuable lesson that day!)

Regarding your pp. Nearly had the same situation buying a site one time ourselves and we rang the crowd (name escapes me) who are over archelogical hertigage and asked them if they had any disagreement in principle to us looking for planning beside a site of archelocial interest and they looked at maps and told us straight away that the would and if we proceeded they would have to lodge an objection. Armed with that info we just did not proceed with the purchase. My advice...ring them...also meet with the local planner in advance of shelling out any money on plans...show them a map and ask them if they have any disagreement or issues with the site. No point in finding that out months later as we did with another site. I could go on..... research I think is the key to all of this. Keep us posted!

CJhaughey

Re: Archeological surveys, we have built approximately 100m from a Castle, but as part of the PP we had to contract an Archeologist to perform a site survey.
He came marked out an area and my diggerman took the soil back to the specified depth and nothing was found.
TBH if you ask Duchas about this kind of thing then it is just redflagging what does not need to be redflagged IYKWIM.
A proper archeology report from an accredited archeologist is enough.
Make sure that you only inspect the areas that will be directly affected by the site construction.

Builderwoman!

I can see your point CJ about Duchas but they do check all the pp applications so better it be redflagged early on rather than later when you have agreed a sale and hopes on getting pp are riding high. It's a personal decision really. We had so many problems and issues with sites, messers etc that I would not want to see anyone going down the same route.

mikewest

Sorry for being off air for a few days. I been catching up on sleep and getting ready for days again. The site is from family so no real worries about messers or having to sign contracts without knowing the full complications. A few years ago doing a house extension for the family up the road we had to get an archeologist to be on site during excavations and do a report. 1500 yoyos for a 4 page crap report and 45 mins on site total. He arrived at the beginning of dig and arrived back after they were finished.