Superb v Passat v Avensis

ds20prefecture

unkel wrote:

You beat me to it, DS

Not according to carzone, or a large dealer in Dublin

It wouldn't make sense to have it in stationwagon only

I agree, but I am going by the Skoda.ie web site. The price list does not show the 2.0TDi DSG in saloon form, but it does on the Combi. It definitely used to show in the saloon page so I would say it has been recently withdrawn and they haven't updated the Combi, or someone screwed up.

To my eyes at least, the estate is a more handsome car.

Dcully

A few weeks ago i was in the same position almost.
I was trading in a 99 Avensis.
First tip ,dont waste your money on a brand new car,i made that mistake before but never again.
Having test driven every model in this class i settled for a 03 Passat 1.9 TDI Comfortline with 40,000 on clock.
Electric everything,6 disc CD changer,climate control,aircon etc.
Stunning car in every way,by far the best diesel performer out there along with A4 [same engine],
The car i bought even has the lovely smell of a new car
Avensis was very nice but not as powerfull as the VW.
Superb was like a Passat but somewhat a wee bit noisier even though it was an 05.
At the end of the day it is a Skoda and residuals are poor compared to both VW and Toyota.
In the end the performance along with build of the Passat and its residuals won the day,i never imagined just how quick these TDIs really are,the torque is simply outstanding and should almost be classed as performance machines.
Go for the Passat i say but not a brand new one.
If you were after a petrol car id be a bit more tempted by the Avensis as for diesels imo you cant beat VW/Audi.
My old Avensis was a brilliant car,i all of the 4 years i had it not once did i give hassle,a rear light bulb is all

prospect

Dcully wrote:

Stunning car in every way,by far the best diesel performer out there along with A4 [same engine]

You obviously didn't try the 156 JTD!

maidhc

Dcully wrote:

Stunning car in every way,by far the best diesel performer out there along with A4 [same engine],

The Toytota 2.0 D4D is a better engine than the 1.9 TDI, although driving them there isnt a whole lot in it. Toyota is FAR quieter, if that concerns you. I have only read reviews of the 2.0TDI, and they haven't been glowing.

All my cars to date have been hand me downs, bought new by my parents. All have been reliable, which I put to they always being serviced properly. Present car is getting old now, but I would buy a new one before I'd go down the s/h road. It is nice to know a car from the day it is bought especially if you are going to hold onto it.

Dcully

Nope havent driven the 156 JTD,i stand corrected
I found the D4D down on power tbh and about same volume as TDI.
Being a Toyota im sure it a class engine but to me it felt slower.

knifey_spoonie

I can tell you for a fact the new passats are giving trouble.VW build quality is not what it used to be.

Out of all i would go for the Skoda.Its got the best spec,But it wont holds its value as well as the rest.

Big Balls

knife_fighter wrote:

VW build quality is not what it used to be.

I have to laugh when I hear people say this from time to time. The build quality is just as good as it always was. The doors still thud when you close them, the switches still sturdy, my GTI feels more planted on the road than any other car I've owned...I can't find one bad thing to say about it. The machanical side of things might not be as bullet proof as the MKI and II but please, give up on the build quality line will ya!!

I'd love to see these "bad reports" about the 2.0TDI too. It's a far more driveable engine compared to the 1.9 - the only thing it lost over the 1.9 was the brilliant economy.

maidhc

Big Balls wrote:

I have to laugh when I hear people say this from time to time. The build quality is just as good as it always was. The doors still thud when you close them, the switches still sturdy, my GTI feels more planted on the road than any other car I've owned...I can't find one bad thing to say about it. The machanical side of things might not be as bullet proof as the MKI and II but please, give up on the build quality line will ya!!

I'd love to see these "bad reports" about the 2.0TDI too. It's a far more driveable engine compared to the 1.9 - the only thing it lost over the 1.9 was the brilliant economy.

There is a difference between perceived quality and actual build quality. Note the old Corollas as a case in point: Crappy cheap plastics, tinny doors etc, but lasted for 300k. Bullet proof mechanicals are where build quality is at. Id happily sacrafice a clunking door for not having to replace a waterpump.

The first of the last gen Passats were a disaster with electrical problems, although they got that sorted after a short while. I havent heard anything bad about more recent ones. I have seen about 10 A4s in the extended family (maybe do 500k between them) and none have given an ouce of bother, bar one immobiliser (Unlike the Renaults... and Mercs)

On topic, I would say the Toyota is probably a better built car than either the VW brands, but I'm saying this as someone who intends to buy an Octavia in the new year.

2.0 TDI is undoubtedly faster. But more expensive, wont hold its value as well (just yet anyway, and certainly not in a plain jane car), will cost more to tax and more to run. The 1.9 TDI is a fine engine, I doubt the extra costs of the 2.0 are justified.

The reports say the 2.0 is a bit slow at lower speeds, and slightly brutal once it gets going. But most reports are pure bull anyway, so I wont stand over that comment.

Big Balls

I covered 20,000 miles in a 2.0TDI and I can't pick out one moment where it lacked over the 1.9. Performance wise in terms of speed, they are probably very close.

I've covered about 37,000 miles in 3 different VAG cars and nothing mechanical to report.

A dodgy seat frame which was replaced is the only problem I had with a new Audi.

knifey_spoonie

Big Balls wrote:

I have to laugh when I hear people say this from time to time. The build quality is just as good as it always was. The doors still thud when you close them, the switches still sturdy, my GTI feels more planted on the road than any other car I've owned...I can't find one bad thing to say about it. The machanical side of things might not be as bullet proof as the MKI and II but please, give up on the build quality line will ya!!

I'd love to see these "bad reports" about the 2.0TDI too. It's a far more driveable engine compared to the 1.9 - the only thing it lost over the 1.9 was the brilliant economy.

Maybe you should have a look at the 2005 top gear car survey where VW came 21 out of 36 Skoda came 2ND.
Now can you please explain how Skoda is higher that VW.If you consider skoda uses VWs last generation parts and yet skoda comes higher than VW.+ if skoda comes higher with old parts and VW comes lower with the newer parts.Now put on your little thinking cap.Hmm, That alone is proof that VWs build quality is sliping.

And the idea that VW are unreliable has not just come from me but VW salesmen.

So wait a while till your car starts to give problems

Big Balls

I have waited.. I've been driving VAG cars the last 3 years and they're not really any worse than the next car :rolleyes:

The reason those surveys reveal bizarre stuff like that is because if you buy a Skoda (for example) and something goes wrong.. you almost expect it. Dealer fixes if for you, you're happy.

If you buy a VW/Merc (Merc also scored poorly in the survey you mention) you don't expect stuff to go wrong so if it does you get annoyed about it more than with a stereotypically unreliable brand.

maidhc

knife_fighter wrote:

If you consider skoda uses VWs last generation parts and yet skoda comes higher than VW.+ if skoda comes higher with old parts and VW comes lower with the newer parts.

Skoda use the same generation of parts. The New Octavia is based on the same platform as the present golf and uses identical engines. This has always been the case, except perhaps for the Felicia.

I'm not sure about the argument that someone who buys a skoda expects it to break. I know a lot of people with Skodas, and they would be damn pissed if it broke, but they dont. I know many merc people that have got unbelievable grief...problems from the boot opening when the brakes are pressed... to the clutch pedal assembly FALLING OFF (an 02 E-Class).

I think the Top Gear survey was credible... Jap cars at the top, VAG (overall...) reasonably good, and french and italian cars at the very bottom. Maybe Skoda just take a little more pride in their cars than VW?

Dcully

That survey is not a reliability survey.
It is infact what drivers had to say when asked,did your car live up to what you expected?
Everyone expects different things so imo people wrongly see it as a reliability survey.

maidhc

No it isnt a reliability survey, and they dont go into much detail on their methodology apart from allocating the scores on the following basis:

Build quality (22%)
Craftsmanship (22%)
Driving experience (19%)
Ownership costs (17%)
Customer care (20%)

Indeed Merc or VW owners may be more discerning than their Skoda counterparts, but this does not explain Lexus being rated so much higher the Mercedes, or French cars being rated so much lower than Toyota.

Ultimately the least anyone expects of a car is that it fulfills its purpose, and most people will be reasonably happy if the car is dependable, and thriiled if it dependable and *nice* to own. I dont think owners of broken down cars ever make the most delighted bunch, unless the car is really really special.

unkel

Dcully wrote:

That survey is not a reliability survey.

Indeed it isn't

Dcully wrote:

It is infact what drivers had to say when asked,did your car live up to what you expected?

Right on. All about meeting or exceeding expectations. A Skoda Octavia buyer knows he got a family size car with a great boot at an amazing price. Most don't have any major problems with them so, yes, their expectations are exceeded and the Octavia gets the best family car award for five years in a row

maidhc wrote:

this does not explain Lexus being rated so much higher the Mercedes

I believe it does. A Lexus buyer is not that interested in how good a drivers car his Lexus is. He obviously has no interest in cars in general and he might not even know he is buying a Toyota. His main interest is to get a very comfortable car that he thinks will give him the same status as a BMW or Merc. The Lexus also has a great sound system and is built to the utmost reliability so it will never break down. There you have it, another extremely satisfied owner pushing the Lexus up to the top of the list

A Merc owner, however, might have different perceptions, demands and expectations

AMurphy

unkel wrote:

Indeed it isn't


I believe it does. A Lexus buyer is not that interested in how good a drivers car his Lexus is. He obviously has no interest in cars in general and he might not even know he is buying a Toyota. .....

I think only the 300 is an upgraded Toyota, the others are more unique.

maidhc

unkel wrote:

I believe it does. A Lexus buyer is not that interested in how good a drivers car his Lexus is. He obviously has no interest in cars in general and he might not even know he is buying a Toyota.

Thats a terrible exaggeration! You can just as easily say all merc owners are overweight and balding and the only reason they dont like their cars is that they are cranky in general! .. etc etc etc

Or else you could recognise that Mercedes has had major quality control issues beginning with the demise of the 190 and coming to a head with the Chrysler merger. Personally I adore Mercs, and bought a mercedes keyring when I was eight for "my car", but right now they do have problems.

Anyhow, back on topic, the Avensis scored 23(i think), and the Skoda Superb & Octavia (4 & 5)(i think). Not sure about the Passat, but I would happily buy one anyway, I have yet to hear any really bad stories, apart from vague VW isnt what is was carry on.

bazz26

unkel wrote:

I believe it does. A Lexus buyer is not that interested in how good a drivers car his Lexus is. He obviously has no interest in cars in general and he might not even know he is buying a Toyota.

Lets be fair here, give Toyota and Lexus the respect they have earned. Not every Toyota/Lexus owner inspires to own a BMW or Merc.

As for Lexus owners not having an interest in cars, not true, maybe they are tired of the so called established Germans charging extra for something that is simply not worth it.

unkel wrote:

His main interest is to get a very comfortable car that he thinks will give him the same status as a BMW or Merc. The Lexus also has a great sound system and is built to the utmost reliability so it will never break down. There you have it, another extremely satisfied owner pushing the Lexus up to the top of the list

A Merc owner, however, might have different perceptions, demands and expectations

As for Lexus owners thinking they may have the same status as BMW/Mercs well the same thing could also be said about BWM/Merc owners. They may only think they are doing a bit better than the rest of us mear mortals or that they may know a bit more about cars. It's all about perception I guess.

Lexus has established alot considering it is only around about 15 years and when the original LS400 was lauched MB had to delay the lauch of the S-Class at the time as the LS400 was a real threat to its dominance. Yes the LS400 may not be great to look at but then again neither was the 7 Series or S Class and most owners were driven around in them so would not care how the car drives.

As for Lexus owners not realising they are driving a Toyota, the same logic could also be applied to Audi being overpriced Skodas or Mercs being built from Chrysler bits and pieces. Its all down to marketing and egos.

unkel

maidhc wrote:

Thats a terrible exaggeration!

A bit exaggerated and generalised, but terrible?

bazz26 wrote:

Lets be fair here, give Toyota and Lexus the respect they have earned

I do respect Toyota. They build very reliable cars and they will soon be the biggest car manufacturer in the world. Indeed it is no small feat to go from mass-manufacturing low-end common-denominator small and medium size cars to go upmarket and be more successful than anybody expected they would be

The Lexus branded cars have taken market share from the incumbents in the luxury / prestige segments, but mainly in the US and to a smaller extent in the UK and Ireland. Much less so in the rest of the old EU. Anybody any theories why?

BTW they may have gotten away with the marketing trick of the "Lexus" badge thingy over here but in Japan they are still sold as what they are: Toyotas

bazz26 wrote:

Not every Toyota/Lexus owner inspires to own a BMW or Merc

Indeed I did describe a typical Lexus owner

bazz26 wrote:

As for Lexus owners not having an interest in cars, not true, maybe they are tired of the so called established Germans charging extra for something that is simply not worth it

Extra? Lexus prices are roughly on a par with the cars Toyota strives them to compete with

bazz26 wrote:

most owners were driven around in them so would not care how the car drives

I'd say the majority of owners drive these cars themselves. There are probably very few cars out there that are mainly chauffeur driven, Maybach and Rolls-Royce spring to mind. In the past when Bentley and Rolls-Royce had near-identical cars on the market, the cliche was that if you drove yourself, you bought a Bentley

bazz26

Agree with some of your points there Unkel but not all.

As you said Lexus prices are almost on a par these days with their competitors so most owners would then have a choice of either buying a Lexus, BMW or Merc, etc so it would come down to personal choice rather than a compromise.

My cousin had an IS200 and traded up for a 320i about a year ago, he is happy with his 3 Series, from a driver's perspective yes the BMW is more involving than the IS200 was but he feels that the overall package (standard kit, value for money, after sales service, etc) of the 3 Series falls short of the Lexus. This is where I think Lexus have really hurt the more established makes.

And as for Lexus being rebadged Toyotas well yes to an extent but it is actually the otherway round, in Japan Lexus built cars are rebadged as Toyotas. Even the Japanese State cars are all big square Toyota Crowns.

This is now changing though and since earlier this year any new Lexus models lauched carry the Lexus badge on them in their home market.

unkel

bazz26 wrote:

the overall package (standard kit, value for money, after sales service, etc) of the 3 Series falls short of the Lexus. This is where I think Lexus have really hurt the more established makes

I agree. Especially the after sales service. I gather it is rather excellent

Value for money is the same point really as standard kit, as we are talking about similarly priced cars. Thankfully all BMWs sold in Ireland recently are UK spec, so that is a big improvement

Still comparing the base model IS200 to the same-ish price base model BMW 320, the main extras the Lexus has are leather (big bonus) and the BMW doesn't even have alloys as standard :rolleyes:

bazz26 wrote:

since earlier this year any new Lexus models lauched carry the Lexus badge on them in their home market.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that

curieux2

maidhc wrote:

...I'm saying this as someone who intends to buy an Octavia in the new year.

2.0 TDI is undoubtedly faster. But more expensive, wont hold its value as well (just yet anyway, and certainly not in a plain jane car), will cost more to tax and more to run. The 1.9 TDI is a fine engine, I doubt the extra costs of the 2.0 are justified.

The reports say the 2.0 is a bit slow at lower speeds, and slightly brutal once it gets going. But most reports are pure bull anyway, so I wont stand over that comment.

So which one are you going for ? 1.9 or 2.0 ?
I'm also looking at getting one within the next few months and fancy the 2.0 DSG

colm_mcm

mmuf200 wrote:

The superb has better residuals that Passat and avensis. In two years you will be offered 22K for the Superb with 45K on the clock.

are you on drugs?

junkyard

The Avensis is the best choice by far, VW's being reliable well built cars is a myth, Skoda's are starting to show their true colours with poor trade-in values and the same VW build quality problems. The Toyota is a super car for the money, you should also consider a Ford Mondeo.

maidhc

As a mondeo owner (Mk1) I cant fault them in any way, but they are worth very very little secondhand. In fact Skoda Octavias make bigger money with all else being equal (which says something considering the price differential new).

Toyotas are good cars, but not troublefree by any measure (we have had many at home though the years, most recently a 99 and 02 Avensis). I know many people with Skodas and VWs, and apart from a few electric problems and dodgy MAFs, that is about it reliability wise. And since I have pretty much decided to buy a octavia, as I said before, I have been asking around a terrible amount.

Are Skoda resale prices that bad? I dont think the Superb holds its value anything like the Avensis, but the Octavia fares quite OK IMO.

Eitherway I cant see the sense in paying 3k extra for the 2.0TDi... and another 2k for the DSG. I was quoted €23.5k cash for a 1.9TDI Ambiente, and €24.9 for the elegance with climate control and alloys (only 15"s though).

junkyard

As I said before in my previous threads, I'm involved in supplying and servicing fleet cars among other things, and VW has been knocked off the list of cars for next year due to unreliability and poor build quality. Skoda aren't even on the list but I do know that they don't hold their value and don't have much value on them in the motor trade in general. For your own interest you should take a trip to Merlin Car Auctions some Saturday and see with your own eyes the true value of cars in general....its a real eyeopener.

maidhc

junkyard wrote:

For your own interest you should take a trip to Merlin Car Auctions some Saturday and see with your own eyes the true value of cars in general....its a real eyeopener.

Humm interesting. I know I'm going OT now, but when one sees Mayo/Louth/random county cars for sale in Cork/Limerick is it fair to assume some, or even many have been bought in auction?

I agree with the Avensis D4D being excellent value for money at what, €30k list. It is a little outside my budget though. The corolla is a far less substantial car than the octavia for very similar money. I havent visited any Toyota dealers yet, but wont do anything without a trip!

bazz26

The Corolla diesel is available in 1.4 90bhp and 2.0 110bhp. But there is a new Corolla due at some stage in 2006.

colm_mcm

bazz26 wrote:

The Corolla diesel is available in 1.4 90bhp and 2.0 110bhp. But there is a new Corolla due at some stage in 2006.

it'll be at least 2007before we see a new Corolla, and the 2.0 is no longer available (it was 116bhp by the way)

bazz26

colm_mcm wrote:

it'll be at least 2007before we see a new Corolla, and the 2.0 is no longer available (it was 116bhp by the way)

Interesting. I was chatting to my local dealer when the car was in for a service and he was expecting the new one around June.

No surprise about the 2.0 being no longer available, it wasn't a huge seller in the current model mainly due to 30% VRT and high road tax.