Taoiseach defends role of Catholic Church

ArthurDent

ArthurDent wrote:

Interesting Conor,
in your laundry list of people who have a question to answer that the Govt is missing - don't they (and all previous Govts) have to bear some of the responsibility too?

They do. They employ the Gardai, teachers, social workers etc. in the list.

Either way, child abuse is a problem that arises in society and one that society must face, not try and pigeonhole it as a problem for priests only and then make statements like 'the Church are all criminals anyway'. That's simply ignoring the problem and saying it's all somebody else's fault...

TomF

Bertie only tried to balance O'Donnell-Carson's rant with some facts. For God's sake, even the full-of-hate Vincent Browne says that 96% of priests are good and holy men. You could do any number of studies and come up with the same result that abuse happens where children are in the hands (oops) of male adults other than their parents for long periods of time. Most of the Church-bashing is from adolescents who don't want to get up early for Mass on Sundays and Holy Days and have seized upon the abuse scandals with glad hands (oops).

Maybe the teaching and caring orders should send the Irish government a bill for the lives of their members spent in teaching our children. I'm sure the total would be a whopper and would set the representatives of the Celtic Tiger running for cover back to Dartry and environs.

ArthurDent

TomF wrote:

Maybe the teaching and caring orders should send the Irish government a bill for the lives of their members spent in teaching our children. I'm sure the total would be a whopper and would set the representatives of the Celtic Tiger running for cover back to Dartry and environs.

Tell you what I'd swap that bill for the full liability for the claims against the state for abuse (looking at a minimum of €1 billion, of which the church is currently reneging on their €127million) - I still reckon we'd come out ahead. And anyway - are you telling me that teachers who were members of religious orders weren't paid for their teching services? Are you sure about that- since the establishment of the national schools?

bonkey

TomF wrote:

You could do any number of studies and come up with the same result that abuse happens where children are in the hands (oops) of male adults other than their parents for long periods of time.

Unless those studies are already done, I'd say thats nothing but idle speculation.

Regardless, its not whether or not any other group would yield the same level of abuse thats the issue. Its whether or not any other group would help cover up such abuse, and whether or not they should be allowed to do so freely, and whether or not the abusers should be brought to justice.

I would imagine, TomF, that if some male babysitter abused a relative of yours, you wouldn't be saying its no big deal because, sure, 5% (or whatever figure you picked) of male babysitters are just gonna be like that statistically, and sure, we should just forget about the whole thing.

And I guarantee that whether or not the babysitter was earning a paycheck for their sitting would be the last thing you'd see as a reason for mitigation.

Honestly. If the church want to be able to maintain a claim of responsibly, then they have to act responsibly. This involves nothing short of full, open, honest cooperation with the law in investigating allegations of abuse and in any resultant cases. Have they done this?

jc

Cronus333

FF are ridiculous. They are defending the undefendable. I'm liking the PDs more and more....

Cork

ratboy wrote:

over 100 people got abused in the ferns diocese by over 30 priest. That's on diocese, when they do reports on all the others, we'll see the full and i suspect horrifying scale of abuse and criminal activity within the church, this,in my eyes, makes them a highly criminal organisation.

There was also much abuse happening outside the church. That in no way makes up how badly church authoritys dealt with it.

The church did provide education and schools. I for one benefited and I am very grateful to my old secondary school.

Berties comments were only reflecting both sides of Church activity. He showed courage in coming being balanced.

Maskhadov

To be honest I wish the government would finally cut the cord with the church and bring anyone who is gulity of abuse to court. I agree totally with the PD's and think its high time we sorted this cosy relationship out.

I would like a modern nation without the church having a direct line to the Taoiseach. I think we should have all the different churches in some kind of a body to act in a general advisory capacity but completly removed from near the government.

AndyWarhol

Specifically on the issue of Catholic denominational schools,

Firstly, pretty much all schools in the country are state-funded, including private fee-paying schools such as Clongowes, Belvedere, Alexandra, etc. There is no denying the fact that Catholic ethos schools are providing an invaluable state function both presently and in the past.

My feeling on the issue of state-funding for schools is that if the state want to secularise education, this policy should not infringe on the wishes of parents who want their children educated in a catholic/protestant/muslim environment. Education is a right, not a privilige and the case of aethist families wishing a secular education should not be above the wishes of a religous family who require a school with religous grounding.

Therefore, I would favour a scaling back of the number of Catholic-by-name schools and the establishment of real Catholic schools whose parents attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and would engage with the school. The remaining schools could be sold or put to other uses by the Church. I don't see the point in having Catholic schools when it is quite obvious that the atendees openly dismiss the church authorities.

Religion is only a part of a child's education, and there is a national academic cirriculum that all children must adhere to. In this sense, I don't what the big fuss is with the state funding denomonational schools. The issue of Catholic schools is an attempt by liberals to pass off religion as some kind of private supernatural opinion, when in fact for a lot of people, their belief in God and subsequent moral teaching is what roots their entire lives. The popular (and hypocritical) activity that is 'church-bashing' will soon wear off, once such liberals realise that the society they have created is one of violence, perversion, vanity and a belief in nothingness in which truth is opinion.

TomF

Very thoughtful and interesting post, AndyWarhol! And a very good point that maybe there are too many Catholic schools with too many Catholic-in-name-only students attending from families of a like ethos. My own children were very dismissive, even at a tender age, of the quality of religious education in their secondary schools in Co. Cork, and were lucky that they already had a firm grounding in their faith through earlier educational experience and their extended family. They find that many of their friends from their days in Cork never attend Mass and have only the slightest knowledge of Catholicism beyond what they read in the papers (probably only the headlines and the like of the Saturday edition rants in the columns of the Irish Times) or what they view on the television. They pass their pseudo-knowledge around in their peer groups and find support in common ignorance. It is pure herd mentality.

lostexpectation

My feeling on the issue of state-funding for schools is that if the state want to secularise education, this policy should not infringe on the wishes of parents who want their children educated in a catholic/protestant/muslim environment. Education is a right, not a privilige and the case of aethist families wishing a secular education should not be above the wishes of a religous family who require a school with religous grounding.

-Where is it that the wishes of relgious families are being overrun by aethists families in terms of -education theres,nowhere, there not enough schools for people who do not wish to educated by -the Catholic Church.

The remaining schools could be sold or put to other uses by the Church.

-No those schools should be given to (multidenominational) trust via the state.

-Your last paragraph is crock, lack of religion does not mean lack of morals or values.

-And its not even that I think that the influence of religion be reduced in schools, because most people in ireland still believe in God, (even if they've left -the Catholic Church) I believe the influence of the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland should be reduced.

lostexpectation

With "education" being the cargo.





What's a cargo cult? Search for it.

ArthurDent

AndyWarhol wrote:

Specifically on the issue of Catholic denominational schools,

Education is a right, not a privilige and the case of aethist families wishing a secular education should not be above the wishes of a religous family who require a school with religous grounding.

I absolutely agree with you - education is a fundmental human right and you are absolutely right no one group should have the say on the type of education available to all - indeed Article 42 of the constitution guarentees the right of parents to choose an educational model that does not conflict with their ethos.

Article 42.3.1 “ The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

Article 42.3.2 “The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

Article 42.4 “ The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.


but that is exactly the situaton we have at the moment and to turn your agrument on its head religious families wishing a denominational education should not be above the wishes of an athiest family who require a school with no denominational grounding.

98% of our primary schools are denominational - so how about a choice for parents to choose what is best for their child? 98% of parents DO NOT want denominational education. The only survey I can find on this is http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/yes_survey_report.pdf
and a mojority of people surveyed indicated a desire for either non- or multidenominational schools and for provision of religious instruction outside of class hours (see page 35)

AndyWarhol

ArthurDent wrote:

but that is exactly the situaton we have at the moment and to turn your agrument on its head religious families wishing a denominational education should not be above the wishes of an athiest family who require a school with no denominational grounding.

98% of our primary schools are denominational - so how about a choice for parents to choose what is best for their child? 98% of parents DO NOT want denominational education. The only survey I can find on this is http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/yes_survey_report.pdf
and a mojority of people surveyed indicated a desire for either non- or multidenominational schools and for provision of religious instruction outside of class hours (see page 35)

Nobody is forcing aethisists to attend Catholic schools. There are plenty of non-denomonational ones about. As you say, 2% of primary schools are non-denomonational so I guess the parents will have to buy a house near one the same way that Catholic parents choose houses near appropriate schools for their children.

The problem that only 2% (from your figures) of schools are non-denominational is not the Catholic church's fault. Parents should complain to their local politicians for suitable educational facilities; instead of church-bashing, they should really see the wider issue and start department of education bashing.

I wouldn't (and don't) have a problem with funding my local Catholic school as they do wonderful work and it's great to see all the children making their first holy communions and confirmation each year. The Catholic church should not be expected to abolish all this in the name of political correctness since they have worked long and hard to make things thus.

I see the need for more non-denomonational schools, given the number of hypocritical parents who send their children to denomonational schools. But it's a political issue and not one for the Catholic authorities.

Of course the issue of state funding now comes in to play, but aren't almost all teachers salarys and building extensions in this country paid for by the state regardless of the school's denomonation? Indeed private schools get a large chunk of their budget from the state too. All schools are adhering to the national cirriculum and educating responsible adults for the future.

We can't have our cake and eat it: if we want the fine lands for non-denomonational schools, we must pay for them through our taxes. Having said this, I predict the church will close down some schools (perhaps sell off land) in response to dwindling faith and reorganise themselves as leaner, cleaner educators for tomorrow's elite.

lostexpectation

why not just re-organise _some_ if not most the schools that exist so that all faiths and none can be caterred as his pointed out so well by ET and arthurdent.

98% of in schools in Ireland are denominational (mostly the Catholic church.)

and your response to this is

"There are plenty of non-denomonational ones about."?

--
The problem that only 2% (from your figures) of schools are non-denominational is not the Catholic church's fault. Parents should complain to their local politicians for suitable educational facilities; instead of church-bashing, they should really see the wider issue and start department of education bashing.

There's has been no church bashing in this discussion of education and the efforts ET and co.

Im guessing here. Do the Catholic Church really deserve the profit from the sales of schools, who paid for them in the first place, it must have been the state via tax and locals funding them. So why should they then profit in selling them on to other locals? (Those they aren't using for compensating money to those that they abused :P ).

I tell you what the Dept of Education should do, it should take some of those 98% of schools and make them truely multi-denomintional as well as everything else. (Oh look thats exactly what you said would be church bashing.)

AndyWarhol

lostexpectation wrote:

-Where is it that the wishes of relgious families are being overrun by aethists families in terms of -education theres,nowhere, there not enough schools for people who do not wish to educated by -the Catholic Church.

This insistence that Catholic schools be secularised to accomodate non-believers is an utterly preposterous idea and would not be tolerated by the Catholic authorities (indeed any other religous authorities).

Again, the issue of there being not enough schools is an issue for the state.

lostexpectation wrote:

-No those schools should be given to (multidenominational) trust via the state.

'Given' to the state? And just carry on happy as larry? What exactly does 'multidenominational' mean? I don't think the Catholic church (or many other religions) would tolerate such a 'multidenomonational' umbrella body. Religous relativism and all that. Sure, according to you, what interest have the state got in religion anyway?

lostexpectation wrote:

-Your last paragraph is crock, lack of religion does not mean lack of morals or values.

mmm. I wonder where moral sense comes from then? (Could be debated with the humanists in Soc>Humanities). Anyway, a lot of people adopt so-called 'christian' values whether they are conscious of it or not: they have an inherent sense of what is right and what is wrong whilst at the same time rejecting any notion of God and that they, as individuals, know best.

lostexpectation wrote:

-And its not even that I think that the influence of religion from be reduce in schools, because most people in ireland still believe in God, (even if they left the Catholic Church) I believe the influence of the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland should be reduced.

Left the church and still believe in God eh? You mean a God? Interesting you 'believe' the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland should be reduced. Well the last census would indicate otherwise with the vast majority of citizens classifying themselves as Catholics. I guess people will make up their own minds when it comes to electing liberal heretics into power.

mike65

Originally Posted by lostexpectation

Nobody is forcing aethisists to attend Catholic schools. There are plenty of non-denomonational ones about. As you say, 2% of primary schools are non-denomonational

One of the faster contradictions I've read on boards.ie

so I guess the parents will have to buy a house near one the same way that Catholic parents choose houses near appropriate schools for their children.

And how many kilometres is that? Catholic Parent/Catholic school average -
prolly 4 kms, non Catholic parent/non Catholic school average - prolly 40 kms

The Catholic church should not be expected to abolish all this in the name of political correctness since they have worked long and hard to make things thus.

No one is suggesting Catholic schools cease being Catholic, rather that there is a ready alternative to Schools rooted in the majoirty faith.

Think through what you're writing before you hit reply.

Mike.

AndyWarhol

mike65 wrote:

One of the faster contradictions I've read on boards.ie



And how many kilometres is that? Catholic Parent/Catholic school average -
prolly 4 kms, non Catholic parent/non Catholic school average - prolly 40 kms



No one is suggesting Catholic schools cease being Catholic, rather that there is a ready alternative to Schools rooted in the majoirty faith.

Think through what you're writing before you hit reply.

Mike.

You've selectively quoted me, whilst conveniently ignoring the major points I was making. Deal with my argument as a whole and stop being so nit-picky.



*Post 200, yay!*

lostexpectation

Who the hell uses the word heretic in the 21st century??????

We'll agree to disagree ok


"Nobody is forcing aethisists to attend Catholic schools. There are plenty of non-denomonational ones about. As you say, 2% of primary schools are non-denomonational"

this quote was from Mr Taliban (Andy Warhol) as you know mike just pointing it out :0)

lostexpectation

Left the church and still believe in God eh? You mean a God? Interesting you 'believe' the influence of the Catholic Church in Ireland should be reduced. Well the last census would indicate otherwise with the vast majority of citizens classifying themselves as Catholics. [/QUOTE]

What I am saying is that an increasing number have and are leaving the Roman Catholic Church but still believe in some type of God or a Catholic God, but wish to have little association with the Roman Catholic Church of Ireland, the one that own all the schools ya know.

ArthurDent

AndyWarhol wrote:

Nobody is forcing aethisists to attend Catholic schools. There are plenty of non-denomonational ones about. As you say, 2% of primary schools are non-denomonational so I guess the parents will have to buy a house near one the same way that Catholic parents choose houses near appropriate schools for their children.

The problem that only 2% (from your figures) of schools are non-denominational is not the Catholic church's fault. Parents should complain to their local politicians for suitable educational facilities; instead of church-bashing, they should really see the wider issue and start department of education bashing...

Either you're having a laugh here or you just don't understand the arguement. The 2% figure is not mine - it's the Dept of Education's figure: approx 3200 primary schools 39 of whom are multidenominational - interesting definition of plenty!So saying parents will have to buy a house near one, like catholics do is just plain ridiculous. Over 60% of people surveyed in that survey I linked above indicated support for setting up of non-denominational schools. And a majority of people also favoured a method of schooling which was either non or multi denominational( and that's a Government survey).

And saying that parents should complain to local politicians for suitable education, while this is true - indicates your level of ignorance about the whole school building process works. The Dept does not just decide - hey here's a new area of population (or d'ya know the demographics have changed here),maybe we should build a school - no the process of school foundation in this state is NOT by the state. Our state relies on patrons to come forward and establish a school in an area based on a demand for a school. That is the reality of how the education system works here and the vast majority of schools opened over the past 5 years have been multidenominational, because there is a demand from parents for this type of schooling.

AndyWarhol wrote:

I see the need for more non-denomonational schools, given the number of hypocritical parents who send their children to denomonational schools. But it's a political issue and not one for the Catholic authorities..

How can you define parents as "hypocritical" sending their children to denominational schools? If that is their only choice - what the hell are they supposed to do, be conscientious objectors and keep their kids out of school? 98% of primary schools are denominational.

I think it's great that you are happy with the education system for your children, I really am. It would be nice to see that you had the generousity of spirit to see that perhaps one size does not fit all and that choice should be available to other parents so that they are not forced to send their child to a school that conflicts with their belief system and ethos.

And by the way not everyone that chooses an Educate Together School are "heretics", some of the most committed members of our school community are deeply religious practising catholics who happen to believe that doctrinal instruction has no place in school, that it is an individual matter for parents and their religious denomination (and they prefer that their children receive this instruction outside school hours).

AndyWarhol

ArthurDent wrote:

Either you're having a laugh here or you just don't understand the arguement. The 2% figure is not mine - it's the Dept of Education's figure: approx 3200 primary schools 39 of whom are multidenominational - interesting definition of plenty!So saying parents will have to buy a house near one, like catholics do is just plain ridiculous. Over 60% of people surveyed in that survey I linked above indicated support for setting up of non-denominational schools. And a majority of people also favoured a method of schooling which was either non or multi denominational( and that's a Government survey).

And saying that parents should complain to local politicians for suitable education, while this is true - indicates your level of ignorance about the whole school building process works. The Dept does not just decide - hey here's a new area of population (or d'ya know the demographics have changed here),maybe we should build a school - no the process of school foundation in this state is NOT by the state. Our state relies on patrons to come forward and establish a school in an area based on a demand for a school. That is the reality of how the education system works here and the vast majority of schools opened over the past 5 years have been multidenominational, because there is a demand from parents for this type of schooling.

How can you define parents as "hypocritical" sending their children to denominational schools? If that is their only choice - what the hell are they supposed to do, be conscientious objectors and keep their kids out of school? 98% of primary schools are denominational.

I think it's great that you are happy with the education system for your children, I really am. It would be nice to see that you had the generousity of spirit to see that perhaps one size does not fit all and that choice should be available to other parents so that they are not forced to send their child to a school that conflicts with their belief system and ethos.

And by the way not everyone that chooses an Educate Together School are "heretics", some of the most committed members of our school community are deeply religious practising catholics who happen to believe that doctrinal instruction has no place in school, that it is an individual matter for parents and their religious denomination (and they prefer that their children receive this instruction outside school hours).

Right, well the solution is to build more non-denomination schools then.

lostexpectation

Andyban read this and educate yourself ( if i maybe so bold to look over the shoulders of giants ) http://www.educatetogether.com/Info/reference_articles/Ref_Art_001.html

"All other member states of the European Community provide publicly owned buildings for basic education. Ireland is unique in requiring citizens to provide privately owned accommodation for this purpose."

Why is this, cos they were all created by religious orders anyway, surely most schools in most countries were created by some religious order originally, but the gov possesed them and changed with the times.

catholicireland

this thread is gas!
you wonder what hidden agenda some of the posters have!

hawkmoon269

catholicireland wrote:

this thread is gas!
you wonder what hidden agenda some of the posters have!

It's not difficult to work out YOUR agenda. :rolleyes:

rsynnott

catholicireland wrote:

this thread is gas!
you wonder what hidden agenda some of the posters have!

I have no HIDDEN agenda.

legalimmigrant

AndyWarhol wrote:

Nobody is forcing aethisists [sic] to attend Catholic schools.

What nonsense.

I don't want "multi-denominational". I don't want "non-denominational". I'm looking for a school where (what I think are) these ridiculous fairytales have no place whatsoever.

There are no truly secular state-funded schools in Ireland.

AndyWarhol

legalimmigrant wrote:

What nonsense.

I don't want "multi-denominational". I don't want "non-denominational". I'm looking for a school where (what I think are) these ridiculous fairytales have no place whatsoever.

There are no truly secular state-funded schools in Ireland.

Nonsense eh?

I agree there are no 'truly secular' state-funded schools in Ireland. If people require this kind of education, then this is the fault of the state and not of the Catholic Church.

Your last comment about 'ridiculous fairytales' needs some attention: Are you trying to suggest that your fairytale world of nothingness in which anything can come from nothing is some-how more enlightened than that of the Catholic Church's, indeed any other faith? Just what is a 'truly secular' school exactly?

catholicireland

What nonsense.

I don't want "multi-denominational". I don't want "non-denominational". I'm looking for a school where (what I think are) these ridiculous fairytales have no place whatsoever.

There are no truly secular state-funded schools in Ireland.

So you want a school where there is absolutely no religion?? What right do you have to deprive your son or daughter of religious teaching? Wouldnt they be pretty ignorant if they went through the education system without any religious teaching.
Every Irish child has the right to be eduacated in a Catholic school.

Freelancer

catholicireland wrote:

So you want a school where there is absolutely no religion??

Why not? USA do it. If you decide your child should have religious teaching, you can do so through your church. Most US churches have sunday schools (or temple) to instil religious education. Why should religious teaching not be optional.

What right do you have to deprive your son or daughter of religious teaching? Wouldnt they be pretty ignorant if they went through the education system without any religious teaching.

And again, why? (looks to your name realising I'm fighting a losing battle with logic on this one, but....) Okay so theres religious teaching. But why does it have to promote one faith? How about multidenomination religious education. Church of I, Buddism, Paganism, Satanism, Rastaferian, all dealt with in a even handed and impartial manner, with each religion given equal footing.

Why should we promote one religion above the other? And spare the statisitc in the sig, I'd love to know where you dug that up and how it compares to falling church attendances. I think the figure of number of catholics, verus numbers of praticing catholics are going to be wildly different and the latter number isn't something you'd want to be sticking on your sig.

Every Irish child has the right to be eduacated in a Catholic school.

Three questions.

Where does it say that?

Why do you say that?

What do you have to support it?

catholicireland

Why not? USA do it

Because the child will grow up ignorant about something which has been so important and influencial in our society for so long. So what if the US do it? The US also do alot of crazy things, should we also copy them because they are currently the worlds only superpower? why not copy some other country, say brazil?

But why does it have to promote one faith? How about multidenomination religious education. Church of I, Buddism, Paganism, Satanism, Rastaferian, all dealt with in a even handed and impartial manner, with each religion given equal footing.

I think anyone who wants satanism to be taught to 6 and 7 year olds needs their head examined. Very, very extreme view.

And spare the statisitc in the sig, I'd love to know where you dug that up

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ei.html
Just one link, many more out there.