Armistice Day

magpie

So, on this day to mark the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month when the Armistice ended the First World War who observed a minute's silence? I was attempting to but got called into a meeting :mad:

If we're going to roll out the triumphalist 1916 Parade again, as per Bertie's wishes is it time to observe a minute's silence in memory of the 200,000 Irish Volunteers who went to France in 1914?

landser

I agree with you. I am a Nationalist, but today i'm wearing a poppy. I had two great - uncles in the first war, one of whom was killed at Messines. both were catholics. I have no problem wearing a lilly at easter and a poppy in november

godtabh

Ireland was never in the war so why should we remember it?

Fair enough the people who fought in it should be remembered but that is all.

The English remember so much because the war had a massive impact on their lives. While Irish life was impacted it was no where near as bad as the english.

landser

kearnsr wrote:

Ireland was never in the war so why should we remember it?

Fair enough the people who fought in it should be remembered but that is all.

The English remember so much because the war had a massive impact on their lives. While Irish life was impacted it was no where near as bad as the english.

which war are you talking about?

if it's about the first war then you're wrong. we were in it. it ift's the second while you are technically correct that we weren't in it c. 80k - 100k irish people were in the british forces during ww2

Maccattack

Armistace day - song by The Oils


Very sorry I missed that. My Grandfather fought in Gallipoli at Suvla bay.

I visited the peninsula in 1995 for the 80th anniversary of the landings. A very moving place and a very moving story.

You may think its irrelevant to Ireland but the campaign played a big role in shaping the world as we know it today.

Lest we forget thse poor brave souls who died on those lonely foreign shores so far from home.

godtabh

There was no conscirpt for Irish ppl in WW1 hence why volunteers went over.

Great Britian entered the war and British Soldiers fought in it.

While I will have to check my facts I think some sort of home rule was in place in Ireland and that was the reason why volunteers went over becasuse the British couldnt force consription in Ireland or didnt want a rebellion on their hands (they got it anyway but that is a different story).

So thats why I say Ireland wasn't in the war and why it doesnt affect us as much as the British

mountainyman

We fought the first world war to defend Serbia and Russia. Both rogue states. If Germany had won the world would probably be well ahead of where it is now.

Lunar cities, martian colonies and 85% broadband availability.

Maccattack

Armistace day - Song by The Oils

Kearnsr. The first world war was prior to Irish independance so Ireland was still under British rule.

My Grandfather was in the Connaught Rangers. A battalion of which is famous for its mutiny against British officers when they heard about the uprising at home.


I believe a lot of the volunteers went over because it was a means to feed their families.

godtabh

Ireland under home rule was still under british control. Some issues the Irish could control others they couldnt such as taxation which the British did

Benedict XVI

kearnsr wrote:

While I will have to check my facts I think some sort of home rule was in place in Ireland and that was the reason why volunteers went over becasuse the British couldnt force consription in Ireland or didnt want a rebellion on their hands (they got it anyway but that is a different story).

Home rule had been promised but was put on the back burner by the outbreak of war.
Redmond and the Home Rule Party encouraged nationalists to enlist because they though it would hasten the introduction of home rule at the end of hostilities. Remember most people though it 'Would be over by Christmas'

godtabh

mountainyman wrote:

We fought the first world war to defend Serbia and Russia. Both rogue states. If Germany had won the world would probably be well ahead of where it is now.

Lunar cities, martian colonies and 85% broadband availability.

The first world war was started due the assisination of Crwon Price Ferdinad by some one from the old Turkish Ottman empire wasnt it? The Germans want revenge for this.

The British and the Germans where in an arms race (to such an extent the Germans out did the british navy in a very short peroid of time) and assination sparked the conflict.

I'm not sure if what your saying is correct about defending Russia or Seria. They probably would've went to war over anything.

bonkey

kearnsr wrote:

Ireland was never in the war so why should we remember it?

Ireland may not have been, but plenty of Irish - of their own free will - were.

Is their choice and sacrifice not worth remembering?

jc

godtabh

Benedict XVI wrote:

Home rule had been promised but was put on the back burner by the outbreak of war.
Redmond and the Home Rule Party encouraged nationalists to enlist because they though it would hasten the introduction of home rule at the end of hostilities. Remember most people though it 'Would be over by Christmas'

Thats why I said some sort of home rule. The British promised as soon as the war was over that home rule would be granted as long as the irish gave them their support and hence no consciption

godtabh

bonkey wrote:

Ireland may not have been, but plenty of Irish - of their own free will - were.

Is their choice and sacrifice not worth remembering?

jc

I said in my post that the people who fought in the war should be remembered.

Did you read my post?

landser

landser wrote:

both were catholics.

Huh?

What's the significance of religion? I'm sure many British soldiers were Catholics too, and together they all shot many German Catholics...

kearnsr

kearnsr wrote:

While I will have to check my facts I think some sort of home rule was in place in Ireland and that was the reason why volunteers went over becasuse the British couldnt force consription in Ireland or didnt want a rebellion on their hands (they got it anyway but that is a different story).

As I understood it, conscription only existed in Britain. It was only towards the end of WWI that the idea of enforcing conscription in this island was signalled, which was a major boost to Sinn Fein's emergence.

Benedict XVI

kearnsr wrote:

The first world war was started due the assisination of Crwon Price Ferdinad by some one from the old Turkish Ottman empire wasnt it? The Germans want revenge for this.

The British and the Germans where in an arms race (to such an extent the Germans out did the british navy in a very short peroid of time) and assination sparked the conflict.

I'm not sure if what your saying is correct about defending Russia or Seria. They probably would've went to war over anything.

Archduke Franz Ferdinand the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne was assinated in Bosnia by Serb nationalists. They wanted to extend the newly independent (from the Turks) Serbia into Bosnia and they were supported by the Serb government.
When Austro-Hungary got wind that the Serbs were involved he gave them a set of demands that they knew the Serbs could not meet. Germany was Austro-Hungary’s ally and they both declared war on Serbia when the demands were not meet. Serbia was allied with Russia and Russia was allied with France who in turn was allied with the British and Britain guaranteed Belgium’s independents.
So Germany and Austro –Hungary went to war with Serbia\Russia, and invaded Belgium which brought in Britain and France.
Crazy stuff.

bonkey

kearnsr wrote:

I said in my post that the people who fought in the war should be remembered.

Did you read my post?

Yes I did.

I was pointing out that it wasn't just people but Irish people. Whether or not Ireland was involved seems a moot point to me.

The only way I could reconcile the two statements (why should we remember it / it should be remembered) without resorting to interpreting it as a "What have the Romans ever done for us" type of reasoning was to assume that it should be remembered didn't necessarily equate with we should remember it.

I read it to mean that it should be remembered by those with a reason to do so.....but that we weren't necessarily those people because Ireland wasn't involved.

If thats not what you meant, then I'd ask a different question...

Why were you asking for a reason why it should be remembered whilst acknowledging that it should be?

jc

godtabh

Benedict XVI wrote:

Archduke Franz Ferdinand the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne was assinated in Bosnia by Serb nationalists. They wanted to extend the newly independent (from the Turks) Serbia into Bosnia and they were supported by the Serb government.
When Austro-Hungary got wind that the Serbs were involved he gave them a set of demands that they knew the Serbs could not meet. Germany was Austro-Hungary’s ally and they both declared war on Serbia when the demands were not meet. Serbia was allied with Russia and Russia was allied with France who in turn was allied with the British and Britain guaranteed Belgium’s independents.
So Germany and Austro –Hungary went to war with Serbia\Russia, and invaded Belgium which brought in Britain and France.
Crazy stuff.

Its been a while since I've read through my history books so I'll hold my hands up that I got it wrong. Must've been out that day from school!

godtabh

bonkey wrote:

Yes I did.

I was pointing out that it wasn't just people but Irish people. Whether or not Ireland was involved seems a moot point to me.

The only way I could reconcile the two statements (why should we remember it / it should be remembered) without resorting to interpreting it as a "What have the Romans ever done for us" type of reasoning was to assume that it should be remembered didn't necessarily equate with we should remember it.

I read it to mean that it should be remembered by those with a reason to do so.....but that we weren't necessarily those people because Ireland wasn't involved.

If thats not what you meant, then I'd ask a different question...

Why were you asking for a reason why it should be remembered whilst acknowledging that it should be?

jc

What I was saying was that the war to the Irish people wasnt as important as the war was to the British people and hence why the British still remember it with such stong conviction.

But we should remember the Irish people who fought in the war because they fought for a cause they believed in and for Ireland because at the end of the day they volunteered to go to war in the thinking that their scarfice would get home rule/indpendent Ireland.

Thats how I seperate the two.

P.S I didnt mean to be smart in saying did you read my post

lostexpectation

200,000 didn't know it was that much, thats a huge amount of men fir Ireland.:eek:

arbeitsscheuer

I observed the minute's silence. Granted I was in a lecture so I would've been silent anyway but... Was mildly irritated that the lecturer didn't observe it, but f**k it, he's got a job to do so it's not exactly expected.

What really REALLY f**ks me off though is my inability to find a frickin poppy in this crappy city. 2 years in a f**kin row I've been unable to find em... Really annoying me at this stage.

P.S. 170,000, not 200,000. I know I'm being pedantic but still
Also, about 30,000 I think went to fight for Britain in WW2, and they'll be remembered on Remembrance Day, which is this Sunday. (It's always the sunday after Armistice Day).

lostexpectation

But we should remember the Irish people who fought in the war because they fought for a cause they believed in and for Ireland because at the end of the day they volunteered to go to war in the thinking that their scarfice would get home rule/indpendent Ireland.

which is a terrible reasoning for fighting a war that was started as described above.

godtabh

lostexpectation wrote:

But we should remember the Irish people who fought in the war because they fought for a cause they believed in and for Ireland because at the end of the day they volunteered to go to war in the thinking that their scarfice would get home rule/indpendent Ireland.

which is a terrible reasoning for fighting a war that started as described above.

Times where different back then.

It was a noble thing to do. People who fought in wars before that where looked upon like heros. Not after WW1 do. Things changed. The world changed.

lostexpectation

kearnsr wrote:

Times where different back then.

It was a noble thing to do. People who fought in wars before that where looked upon like heros. Not after WW1 do. Things changed. The world changed.

War is never noble, was never noble (espescially cockfight wars like ww1) and I believe there was plenty of people who thought that at the time.

bonkey

lostexpectation wrote:

which is a terrible reasoning for fighting a war that was started as described above.

I guess it depends on whether you see the reason for the war commencing as your reason for fighting in it, or something else.

F'r example...lets say that around-about 1914, you believed Ireland was entitled to its independance and was on the verge of receiving it.

Lets say you also believed that should Germany win the war that had just started, not only would England become subservient to the Kaiser, but Ireland would also as a result, and that there was no reason to believe said Kaiser would hand over Ireland's independance.

If you believed these things, and given that the war had already started....which would be more important -

1) the differing outcomes it could result in for your nation
2) the reasons it began

I don't think it matters how the war began if its the outcome that you're concerned about. The war had started and that was that. You could go out and do something to try and achieve the outcome that was most advantageous to you, or you could cry into your pint about how unjust a war it was given how it started and hope for the best.

Thousands chose the former of these options.

On a side note, I can't think of a good way for a war to start.

jc

magpie

Where can you get a poppy in Dublin?

landser

SebtheBum wrote:

What really REALLY f**ks me off though is my inability to find a frickin poppy in this crappy city. 2 years in a f**kin row I've been unable to find em... Really annoying me at this stage.

P.S. 170,000, not 200,000. I know I'm being pedantic but still
Also, about 30,000 I think went to fight for Britain in WW2, and they'll be remembered on Remembrance Day, which is this Sunday. (It's always the sunday after Armistice Day).

I bought one yesterday off a woman on grafton street, outside the fur shop

the figure for WW2 involvement of irish people is closer to 50,000 and some put it as high as 80,000. this figure would include non-combattants e.g. RAF ground crews, nurses and women in the armed forces

magpie

magpie wrote:

Where can you get a poppy in Dublin?

Dunno about the real thing, but print off this page, colour it in red, use a scissors to cut aruond the edge of the flower and bingo...

http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/paso2_001_svd.jpg

bonkey

lostexpectation wrote:

War is never noble, was never noble

No argument, but you should seperate that from how one reacts to the reality of war.

Ask yourself a question. If your country was invaded, do you believe it would be ignoble to resist the invasion? That the noble option is to say "you shouldn't do this, but I won't oppose you"? What if the invaders are bent on killing every man woman and child? You should let them do this, rather than get involved in violence by opposing them?

I fail to see, for example, how staying out of a genocidal event like that which occurred in Rwanda some years ago would be more noble than actually getting involved and fighting for those being massacred.

jc

Maccattack

Does this thread need to turn into a 'I know more about history than you do' argument?

Rememberance days arent about who what why. Its about remembering and giving a bit of respect to the young men and women who fought and died in those terrible wars.

They are days for reflection. Too often the reflection is on what the world was, or what it has become as a result of the wars. Personally I try to reflect on some of the lives that were sacrificed. The James's, Tom's who's lives were truncated. Cut down in their prime. Never to be seen again by the people who loved them.

Can you imagine what it must have been like in those dark days of humanity to be stuck in a diseased trench for months on end, dreaming of home - wife, children, lover, mother. Your mate rotting away next to you with a massive hole through his skull.

Imagine running at a line of machine gun fire with only a single shot rifle and a bayonet to protect you.

They fought in 'The war to end all wars'.

They were sold a dud.

They deserve our respect and our love and our tears.

Lest we forget.