Armistice Day

godtabh

lostexpectation wrote:

War is never noble, was never noble (especially cockfight warslike ww1) and I believe there was plenty of people who thought that at the time.

During that peroid war was a noble thing. You were looked upon with good favor if you managed to get in to the British Army. Not any old scrubber could get in like what happened during consciption.

People who fought in world war 1 did not expect the horrow of trench warfare and the blood baths of the Somme other such battles. After World War 1 peoples views changed dramtaically.

There was never the vast anti-war protest seen like today.

But the values of early 20th century people and early 21st people are totally different.

landser

Maccattack wrote:

Does this thread need to turn into a 'I know more about history than you do' argument?

Rememberance days arent about who what why. Its about remembering and giving a bit of respect to the young men and women who fought and died in those terrible wars.

They are days for reflection. Too often the reflection is on what the world was, or what it has become as a result of the wars. Personally I try to reflect on some of the lives that were sacrificed. The James's, Tom's who's lives were truncated. Cut down in their prime. Never to be seen again by the people who loved them.

Can you imagine what it must have been like in those dark days of humanity to be stuck in a diseased trench for months on end, dreaming of home - wife, children, lover, mother. Your mate rotting away next to you with a massive hole through his skull.

Imagine running at a line of machine gun fire with only a single shot rifle and a bayonet to protect you.

They fought in 'The war to end all wars'.

They were sold a dud.

They deserve our respect and our love and our tears.

Lest we forget.

a bit saccharin, but, you're right. However, the who what and why is the whole point. Unless you know this, then you're just getting irrationally emotional and maudlin. The whole point is "lest we forget".
In order to remember, you first have to know.

Maccattack

saccharin???

You condescending - bitting my toungue.

If you were in front of me now i would be tearing strips off you. I'll refrain you ignoramous.

Jesus. Im fuming. You child.

magpie

Rememberance days arent about who what why. Its about remembering and giving a bit of respect to the young men and women who fought and died in those terrible wars.

Well said

landser

Jesus

Maccattack wrote:

saccharin???

You condescending - bitting my toungue.

If you were in front of me now i would be tearing strips off you. I'll refrain you ignoramous.

Jesus. Im fuming. You child.

how is what i said in any way condescending, or inidcative of my being an ignoramus? I found your "love and tears" comment a bit vomit inducing, that's all. You're easily annoyed.

Tear strips away

lostexpectation

People who fought in world war 1 did not expect the horrow of trench warfare and the blood baths of the Somme other such battles. After World War 1 peoples views changed dramtaically.

-Was there a war befoe that wasn't a slaughterhouse, seriously I know im pontificating but really -was WW1 any different apart from scale?

There was never the vast anti-war protest seen like today.

-There must have been some form protest.

But the values of early 20th century people and early 21st people are totally different.

-Are they really. They knew it was a dud, they went for a job, same as today.

-There is a propaganda involved in the Armistice and Rememberance Day but personal relfection -on what the soldiers had to go through is fine, I've spent more then a minute reading a little on -WW1 so thats my 11th.

-Re WAR

-I was sort of seperating out War from resistance and defence. Britain wasn't interested in the "defence of small nations" it was interested in keeping it spheres of influence.

-I take your points on board though.

Maccattack

We are talking about a subject that is very dear to me.

I'm not prepared to go into detail here but i will say this.

I read a lot of history books especially books on the first and second world wars.

I have visited the mass graves of Gallipoli where my grand father fought and there are very few dry eyed visitors to be seen at the ceremonies. But of course not everyone is as well rounded and mature as you. When you take the time to delve a little into the lives of the people who served in these wars and visit the killing fields you cant help but be moved to tears. and well we should.

Look at all the young people walking the streets today. Lives full of the future. I cant imagine them being shipped off to be slaughtered. can you?

I for one am very proud to appreciate what those soldiers did. Not because they went to war. But because of the incredible bravery they displayed for reasons that are largely incomprehensible today.

Thinking about it often makes me sad and my heart heavy. Perhaps that makes me not as tough as you.

If anyone is interested in finding out more about some of the ordinary boys who served I highly recommend this book.

Its based on the Aussie and Kiwi ANZACS but a very powerful read none the less.

Zombrex

kearnsr wrote:

Ireland under home rule was still under british control. Some issues the Irish could control others they couldnt such as taxation which the British did

We weren't under home rule, the bill had been passed but implimentation was suspended until after the war (which was supposed to be over before Christmas). Home Rule leaders urged Irish people to sign up in the early days because they thought it would show Ireland was loyal to the cause. So as far as I know when the UK entered the war they were our army too (I think they still would have been our army under Home Rule)

My great-grand father fought in Eastern Europen and was also at Gallipoli. He was one of 22 from his company, out of nearly 200, who survived. He died in the late seventies, but if he was alive today he would be amazed about the rememberence tradition today as during his life he believed people didn't care about the war

landser

Macattack, Do you think you're the only person with an interest in this?? you're not.

I've read that book and found it reasonable. I have visited the graveyards in and around Arras and Amiens in Picardie, i found them moving and also interesting.

You seem to have some problem with the use of the word saccharin. the fact that i don't feel the need to blub everytime the war is mentioned, does not mean that i do not have sympathy for those involved, including my own family members.

now back to topic please

godtabh

saccharin

A crystalline substance 500 times sweeter than sugar; used as a calorie-free sweetener

Maccattack

Maccattack wrote:

saccharin???

You condescending - bitting my toungue.

If you were in front of me now i would be tearing strips off you. I'll refrain you ignoramous.

Jesus. Im fuming. You child.

1 week ban

And landser,I and my colleagues will do the moderating around here thanks.

The next outburst I see gets 2 weeks.

murphaph

I had a little think about those poor pawns (on all sides-not just the irish/british troops) used by the great empires of the day. Altogether a very sad time in European history. Imagine if we'd gone a different way and been united back then. The world would be an altogether different place.

Well, how'd you do, Private Willie McBride,
D'you mind if I sit down down here by your graveside?
I'll rest for awhile in the warm summer sun,
Been walking all day, Lord, and I'm nearly done.
I see by your gravestone you were only nineteen
When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916,
I hope you died quick and I hope you died "clean,"
Or, Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?

CHORUS:
Did they beat the drum slowly, did they sound the fife lowly?
Did the rifles fire o'er ye as they lowered ye down?
Did the bugles sing "The Last Post" in chorus?
Did the pipes play the "Floors1 O' The Forest"?

And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined?
And, though you died back in 1916,
To that loyal heart are you forever nineteen?
Or are you a stranger, without even a name,
Forever enshrined behind some glass pane,
In an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained,
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame?

Well, the sun's shining down on these green fields of France;
The warm wind blows gently, the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow;
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard it's still No Man's Land;
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.

And I can't help but wonder now, Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you "the cause?"
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame,
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it's all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again.

Corny? No, I don't think so. We're still at it today ffs. :mad:

breandan

Deleted User wrote:

Dunno about the real thing, but print off this page, colour it in red, use a scissors to cut aruond the edge of the flower and bingo...

http://plants.usda.gov/gallery/standard/paso2_001_svd.jpg

Arent the poppies and the money there sale generates used to look after those who fought in all the wars Britian has/is involved in and not just the first world war.
Indeed as far as I know the ceremonies this weekend are to remember all those who were in wars fighting for Britian and not just the first world war to the best of my knowledge.

A Dub in Glasgo

The British Legion poppy will support all British soldiers who have fought in all war and conflicts including NI and Iraq. There are very few survivors of WWI left. I will not touch a BL red poppy with a barge pole.

I have a white poppy which a lot of folk seem to think supports the other side because it is not the BL red poppy. Strange

Flex

breandan wrote:

Arent the poppies and the money there sale generates used to look after those who fought in all the wars Britian has/is involved in and not just the first world war.
Indeed as far as I know the ceremonies this weekend are to remember all those who were in wars fighting for Britian and not just the first world war to the best of my knowledge.

i thought it was to remember all of britains soldiers that died in battle aswel. if thats the case, how far back in time does it go? back to the 1600's? and would the black and tans and auxiliaries be included in the people who are being 'remembered' by people who wear the british legions poppy?

BuffyBot

The British Legion poppy will support all British soldiers who have fought in all war and conflicts including NI and Iraq.

Maybe. However, they're just ordinary guys doing their job for the most part, and don't really get much choice where they are sent by the governments of their day. Sometimes I wonder why people transfer their issues with the political maneuverings of the day to the ordinary people caught up in them.

Diorraing

Quite hypocritic. Irish people out fighting for the freedom of Belgians and others when we didn't have freedom oursleves! (They had been under occupation 2 years or so - us 700!).
To be 100% honest I couldn't give a crap who won WW1 and in many respects it would have probably have been better for us if the Germans had been stronger and held out longer.
So what if Irish people fought in WW1, Irish people fought in the troubles and we don't remember them, Irish people fought for the confederates - still no rememberance, Irish people fought with Franco - not seeing any rememberance of these either. I would be more than happy to honour Irish soldiers who fought in WW2 against a true tyrant - but not those who fought to preserve the British Empire.
Is mise le meas, Diorraing

magpie

Is mise le meas, Diorraing

That's pretty telling, for starters.

Irish people fought in the troubles and we don't remember them

So is that

not those who fought to preserve the British Empire

As is that.

Whether An Phoblacht likes it or not, 170,000 Irishmen fought in the First World War, the considerable majority of whom were Catholic Nationalists. Gerry Adams' grandfather being one of them if I'm not mistaken.

Diorraing

You're really not seeing my point are you?
I'll put it simply for you?
- I don't see any reason why fighting in WW1 is any better than fighting for the confederates, fighting for Franco, fighting in the troubles. A lot of people have this perception that Irish soldiers were doing the world a great justice by fighting for the British in WW1 - I fail to see how. What did they achieve after it all? Nothing really.
By the way, the fact that you associate the Irish Language with violent republicanism highlights an ignorance in your opinions: Michael McDowell is a fluent speaker (his granddad was a founder of the Gaelic League) as is Enda Kenny and Trevor Sergent - hardly violent nationalists are they?

mountainyman

I believe that much of the interest in the First World War unhealthy and maudlin.

I cycled through the Somme last year and it was a depressing experience and I too had family who died in France but so what it was 90 years ago and if we can't discuss it honestly now what hope is there.

Will those who see the participation of Irish people in the war as something noble answer a few questions?

Please explain why Serbia was engaged in consistent pattern of terrorsim against the Austro Hungarian empire. The so called 'unmeetable demands' were to examine the records of Serbian Intelligence to see what help they had been giving the Black Hand

Please explain why the Russian's began mobilisation FIRST before Germany and Austria.
Please explain why France refused to guarantee the German's neutrality on the western border.

The simple fact is that all wars contain moments of bravery on all sides. However we were on the wrong side in the First World War. The men who fought were not fighting 'that small nations might be free' but against this as they fought for the Russian Empire and against Germany. They fought for the enslavement of Finland and of Poland.

How can this be justified?

Cronus333

kearnsr wrote:

Ireland was never in the war so why should we remember it?

We were part of Britain then!! Thousands of people died doing what they felt was needed! I would be more in favour of a parade for them than 1916!!

Cronus333

mountainyman wrote:

I believe that much of the interest in the First World War unhealthy and maudlin.

I cycled through the Somme last year and it was a depressing experience and I too had family who died in France but so what it was 90 years ago and if we can't discuss it honestly now what hope is there.

Will those who see the participation of Irish people in the war as something noble answer a few questions?

Please explain why Serbia was engaged in consistent pattern of terrorsim against the Austro Hungarian empire. The so called 'unmeetable demands' were to examine the records of Serbian Intelligence to see what help they had been giving the Black Hand

Please explain why the Russian's began mobilisation FIRST before Germany and Austria.
Please explain why France refused to guarantee the German's neutrality on the western border.

The simple fact is that all wars contain moments of bravery on all sides. However we were on the wrong side in the First World War. The men who fought were not fighting 'that small nations might be free' but against this as they fought for the Russian Empire and against Germany. They fought for the enslavement of Finland and of Poland.

How can this be justified?

Its not often we here the point of view of the losing side! Thank you for adding some balance on my view of WWI.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cronus333 wrote:

We were part of Britain then!!

We were part of the UK then

Diorraing

Cronus333 wrote:

We were part of Britain then!! Thousands of people died doing what they felt was needed! I would be more in favour of a parade for them than 1916!!

Hmm...tough question. Do we honour those who set the wheels in motion for us to gain our independance, who fought against all odds and then were brutally executed - they died for our freedom. Or do we honour those who fought for the oppressor and achieved, well achieved nothing for the ordinary Irishman. Yeah, tough question indeed!

mcgarnicle

mountainyman wrote:

Will those who see the participation of Irish people in the war as something noble answer a few questions?

Please explain why Serbia was engaged in consistent pattern of terrorsim against the Austro Hungarian empire.

Serbia or Black Hand? While Black Hand got weapons from some Serb generals I don't think that qualifies as official state support of anti-Austrian terrorism.

mountainyman wrote:

The so called 'unmeetable demands' were to examine the records of Serbian Intelligence to see what help they had been giving the Black Hand

The demand was that Austrian officials be allowed to participate in the Serbian enquiry into the killing. It was one of ten demands levelled on the Serbs, among the others were a purge of officials who spread anti-Austrian propoganda and a general suppresion of anti-Austrian propoganda in Serbia. The actual demands were not the only thing many felt was unreasonable, the Austrians took about a month after the killing to issue their demands yet after issuing them they gave the Serbs all of 48 hours to comply. Despite the fact that these demands were extremely harsh the Serbs still agreed to 9 of the 10. The only one they did not want to submit to was that of Austrian officials participating in the enquiry.

mountainyman wrote:

Please explain why the Russian's began mobilisation FIRST before Germany and Austria.

They didn't. They took measures that would make mobilisation possible if it became necessary. Note by this stage the Austrians had received the "blank cheque" from Germany and war was now inevitable. When the 48 hour period for Serbia to comply with the Austrian Ultimatum had passed, the Austrians ordered the mobilisation of their forces. This was on the 25 July, the Russians mobilised on the 29 July.

mountainyman wrote:

Please explain why France refused to guarantee the German's neutrality on the western border.

You must be joking, you have heard of the Schliefen Plan?

mountainyman wrote:

The simple fact is that all wars contain moments of bravery on all sides. However we were on the wrong side in the First World War. The men who fought were not fighting 'that small nations might be free' but against this as they fought for the Russian Empire and against Germany. They fought for the enslavement of Finland and of Poland.

How can this be justified?

Can you explain this please?

magpie

I don't see any reason why fighting in WW1 is any better than fighting for the confederates, fighting for Franco, fighting in the troubles

I'm quite amazed by the ignorance of this statement

Hmm...tough question. Do we honour those who set the wheels in motion for us to gain our independance, who fought against all odds and then were brutally executed - they died for our freedom. Or do we honour those who fought for the oppressor and achieved, well achieved nothing for the ordinary Irishman. Yeah, tough question indeed!

Of course other people might argue that those who went to to France (the vast majority of the Volunteers) were doing so in order to "set the wheels in motion" for independence, and that the lunatic fringe who remained and triggered an unsuccessful revolt actually set the whole thing back by years and put the wheels in motion for the partition of the country, thus causing your beloved "troubles". Our Lá might have tiocfaidhed a lot sooner without messrs Pearse an Co.

Diorraing

magpie wrote:

Of course other people might argue that those who went to to France (the vast majority of the Volunteers) were doing so in order to "set the wheels in motion" for independence, and that the lunatic fringe who remained and triggered an unsuccessful revolt actually set the whole thing back by years and put the wheels in motion for the partition of the country, thus causing your beloved "troubles". Our Lá might have tiocfaidhed a lot sooner without messrs Pearse an Co.

We can only examine the facts as we have them. Everyone accepts that the war of independance would probably never have happened were it not for the 1916 rising. The volunteers who fought for the oppressor may have thought that we'd gain Home Rule (not independance) from it - we'll never know if we did.
You have made a quite outrageous assertion that the WW1 volunteers would have been able to gain independance without partition. Either elaborate and back up the point or don't make it at all (which is adviseable seeing as there is no way you could back it up)

Barry Aldwell

It's a bit late now, but you can get poppies from the Royal British Legion on South Frederick Street. To get there, walk along Nassau Street with Reads on your right and Trinity on your left, it's the first right after Reads, and will be on the left hand side of the road after you turn. It's easy to miss them, so keep an eye out. There's a buzzer you have to ring, just tell them you want to buy a poppy and they'll let you in.

hawkmoon269

Diorraing wrote:

Quite hypocritic. Irish people out fighting for the freedom of Belgians and others when we didn't have freedom oursleves! (They had been under occupation 2 years or so - us 700!).
To be 100% honest I couldn't give a crap who won WW1 and in many respects it would have probably have been better for us if the Germans had been stronger and held out longer.
So what if Irish people fought in WW1, Irish people fought in the troubles and we don't remember them, Irish people fought for the confederates - still no rememberance, Irish people fought with Franco - not seeing any rememberance of these either. I would be more than happy to honour Irish soldiers who fought in WW2 against a true tyrant - but not those who fought to preserve the British Empire.
Is mise le meas, Diorraing

Excellent, and thought provoking post. I agree with you completely.

catholicireland

We were part of Britain then!! Thousands of people died doing what they felt was needed! I would be more in favour of a parade for them than 1916!!

yes we were, but only because they invaded us and it was no choice of the Irish people. Nearly all of the Irish who went and faught in WW1 and 2 did it so they could get some money and send it home for their familys.

why would you want a parade for such a thing? wouldnt a minutes silence be more appropriate?