Armistice Day

LordSutch

ISAW wrote:

But why only remember the British sacrifice? Why not remember the Irish sacrifice or the sacrifice of all the allies powers. Why not commemerate all the UN peacekeepers? Indeed what about the Germans and Japaneese (in particular civilians who dies in WWII)?

A Service of Remembrance is held in St patricks Cathedral every year on or about the 11th/11th, I was there this year and it might surprise you Mr ISAW but Remembrance Day is for all who died (Not only at the Somme) but all Irish UN soldiers as well as Irish personnel who died in the leabanon and all peacekeeping duties! So you see, the Poppy really is a symbol of Remembrance for all including the twelve ambassadors in the Cathedral who wore the Poppy, they were from (Japan, Germany, France, India, Britain, Holland, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Italy, Poland) Our president was also in attendance (as she is every year), its a very thought provoking service and very in tune with all Remembrance Day services being held all over the World on that day .................................

magpie

do the gangs engaged in war in Dublin at the moment deserve to be commemorated because they are fighting?

Possibly, if they believed they were fighting for the good of humanity, which despite your short-sighted cynicism, was why 170,000 volunteers went to France.

To be frank though, that's a deliberately disingenuous argument, and what this boils down to is that your views are diametrically opposed to mine and never the twain shall meet.

Diorraing

magpie wrote:

Possibly, if they believed they were fighting for the good of humanity, which despite your short-sighted cynicism, was why 170,000 volunteers went to France.

To be frank though, that's a deliberately disingenuous argument, and what this boils down to is that your views are diametrically opposed to mine and never the twain shall meet.

I'm open to all opinions. You say they were fighting for humanity in WW1. Fair enough - but how? Did the Germans have concentration camps, did they purge the Jewish people at that time?
Correct me if I'm wrong but WW1 started because of the complicated system of treaties between European powers. Once Austria and Serbia went to war the treaty system was triggered and it was a world war. Please show how this was a justified war?

A Dub in Glasgo

WWI was all about imperialism not humanity

magpie

You both seem to have difficulty grasping the difference between

a) someone in 1914 believing it was just, worthwhile war
and
b) someone in 2005 knowing it was a clash of Imperial powers

Just because b) may be true, it doesn't make the sacrifice of someone who believed a) at the time to be any less, now does it?

DublinWriter

Diorraing wrote:

Please show how this was a justified war?

It's important to regconise the difference in a) what the soliders of both sides thought they were fighting for and b) why WWI was actually fought.

The soliders of both sides thought they were fighting for freedom. That's the reason we celebrate their memory.

Diorraing

DublinWriter wrote:

It's important to regconise the difference in a) what the soliders of both sides thought they were fighting for and b) why WWI was actually fought.

The soliders of both sides thought they were fighting for freedom. That's the reason we celebrate their memory.

The IRA thought they were fighting for freedom. Do you propose we celebrate their memory - not likely.
Too many times in history have people thought they were fighting the just war (c.f. Nazis, Al Queida etc.) - History shall judge which wars were justified and which weren't. 90 years on I can honestly say that WW1 was a fruitless war which nobody really won. It was one of the darkest periods of human history in which people needlessly died. Yes WW1 should be remembered but as a warning to future generations. It should never be celebrated because in the end there was no good prevailing over evil (as in WW2), it was all evil. Nobody was better off because of it.

Snickers Man

ArthurF wrote:

A cheap shot Snickers man (with a small m) it is commonly accepted by all and sundry that the Sixty Five Thousand Men who never returned to these shores were airbrushed out of history until recently!

It's not a cheap shot. I asked you a simple, inoffensive factual question to the effect was there ever a time that you did NOT know about your grandfather's service, and/or whether it was something that you were encouraged to keep quiet about, as if it were something shameful like having a really black sheep in the family.

Now. The fact that your retort is along the lines 'commonly accepted by all and sundry' merely suggests that you're a particularly gullible person who believes the bull**** peddled by the likes of Myers etc because they make forcibly.

The fact that a large bunch of eejits believe it to be so, does not make it so.

As I said before, we don't have a uniformly accepted attitude to what these men did or how our independent republic should recognise what they did and it's absolutley right that that should be the case.

But that doesn't mean that people rewrote history to remove their record. That's just not true.

A Dub in Glasgo

magpie wrote:

You both seem to have difficulty grasping the difference between

a) someone in 1914 believing it was just, worthwhile war
and
b) someone in 2005 knowing it was a clash of Imperial powers

Just because b) may be true, it doesn't make the sacrifice of someone who believed a) at the time to be any less, now does it?

No difficulty at all. I would say that almost every soldier in any war/conflict at any time thinks they are fighting a just, worthwhile war at the time.

WWI should be commemorated as the futility of war, not a celebration of people high up sending millions to their death.

I would commemorate WWI by showing Blackadder Goes Forth

LordSutch

[QUOTE=Snickers. The fact that your retort is along the lines 'commonly accepted by all and sundry' merely suggests that you're a particularly gullible person who believes the bull**** peddled by the likes of Myers etc because they make forcibly.[/QUOTE]

Lets get back to basics Mr Snickers, this thread started off asking about Armistice-Remambrance Day, and the point I am despirately trying to make is that "Sixty Five Thousand" Irish men died in the two World Wars! (thats a lot of men) and thats all I am trying to say, and my Grandfather was one of them - so I wear a Poppy on Remembrance day to remember him and all Irish men who died in the wars, its not meant to be day of celibration, it is just a day of reflection & remembrance.

Snickers Man

ArthurF wrote:

Lets get back to basics Mr Snickers, this thread started off asking about Armistice-Remambrance Day, and the point I am despirately trying to make is that "Sixty Five Thousand" Irish men died in the two World Wars! (thats a lot of men) and thats all I am trying to say, and my Grandfather was one of them - so I wear a Poppy on Remembrance day to remember him and all Irish men who died in the wars, its not meant to be day of celibration, it is just a day of reflection & remembrance.

That's fair enough. And I would respect your wishes and even your motives to commemorate your ancestors. I've been to my grandfather's grave in England and will some day visit my other relatives graves (or commemoration sites in the case where there is none) in France and Belgium.

The fact of remembering the fallen is not the issue. It's how you do it. My point is that wearing the poppy is a loaded way to commemorate Irish soldiers in the British Army. It implies, no matter what some people here say, an endorsement of all the actions taken by that Army in all wars since WWI. Including those against our own compatriots, and others from which it would be quite reasonable for Irish people to dissent. eg the Falklands, Aden, Palestine etc etc

It wasn't our army, it wasn't fighting on our behalf and we had no say in its actions. Ironically, wearing the poppy would in itself be an attempt to 'write out of history' the history of dissent and disagreement between the British Empire and one of the first of its subject nations to achieve independence.

BuffyBot

My point is that wearing the poppy is a loaded way to commemorate Irish soldiers in the British Army.

I think thats more a "my view is" statement than anything else.

arbeitsscheuer

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I would commemorate WWI by showing Blackadder Goes Forth

Actually, we did this in UCD last week.
Dramsoc put on a stage version of the final episode of that series.
I would point out however that just because it is comedy, and indeed just because the war was futile, does not diminish the sacrifice made by those who fought and died in the Great War.

Snickers Man

from Blackadder goes Forth wrote:

Edmund: Do you mean "How did the war start?"

Baldrick: Yeah.

Edmund: ...the real reason for the whole thing was that it
was too much effort *not* to have a war....
..You see, in order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs
developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the
Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other.The idea was tohave two
vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. Thatway
there could never be a war.

Baldrick: But this is a sort of a war, isn't it, sir?

Edmund: Yes, that's right. You see, there was a tiny flaw in the plan.

George: What was that, sir?

Edmund: It was bollocks.

Classic!

And with a message that's still very relevant today.