Armistice Day

Snickers Man

magpie wrote:

Anyway, regardless of motives its surely a sorry state of affairs where 170,000 men are effectively written out of history and their motives questioned while the actions of 1600 men (only 10% of those who stayed behind) are given the hagiography treatment.

I'd love to know who came up with this 'written out of history' catchphrase. which has been uttered here many times. It's catchy but untrue. (Probably that Kevin Myers bloke.)

Like I said, I've known about my ancestors who fought in WWI all my life (and that's quite some time, compared to some of you here)

They weren't 'Written out of history' When did we NOT know that Irish people served in the Great War and WWII? There is a commemorative garden to Irish veterans of the British Army in Islandbridge? How did that get there if they were written out of history?

Did you know that RTE broadcast on radio a service of remembrance from Belfast for the fallen of the Battle of The Somme on its 50th anniversary in 1966 (the same time there were all the commemorations for the 50th anniversary of the Easter rebellion)? How does that square with 'writing them out of history'?

It may be true to say that they haven't been written 'IN' to a commonly accepted version of history that we all look back on with uniform pride and admiration. But that's a subtly different thing.

It's impossible, given our history, to adopt a uniformly benign position towards commemorating the British Army. For a long time, they were our enemy. It is uncomfortable therefore to look back on them with uniform fondness.

For an example of how the actions of one's veterans can be written IN to a commonly accepted version of history look at the Australians and New Zealanders. Their version of the actions of their countrymen is as follows:

They were fighting for their country. (They weren't. They were fighting for the mother country)

They were the good guys fighting nobly for a great cause (They weren't. At Gallipoli, they were the bad guys, invading the country of another people who had never done anything to them, had never threatened them and posed no danger to themwhatsoever)

They behaved with heroism and nobility throughout. (Probably as true as any army. But woe betide you if you suggest otherwise.

For example, a documentary maker in Australia recently made reference in his film to soldiers suffering from VD while in Gallipoli and he was heavily criticised by people who didn't doubt the veracity of what he said but were of the opinion that nothing negative should be said about those men because people only wanted to remember the heroic bits. Let's write the nasty bits out, eh?)

The ANZACs can do this because they didn't have the pain of a civil war to endure. They could cling to the comfortable notion, so beloved of today's American neocons that 'fighting a war over there is better than fighting one here' Certainly is,but we didn't get that luxury.

LordSutch

This year I was St Patricks Cathedral in Dublin at the service of remembrance, sitting opposite me and across the isle was our President Mary McAlise, sitting two rows ahead of me was Brian Dobson (the News Reader), sitting in front of him were all manner of politicians from the Dail, there were also ambassadors from twelve different nations including Britain, Germany, France, Russia. As usual the Cathedral was packed with people and packed with Poppies! Unusually this year we had a "Priest" from Monkstown Catholic Church giving the sermon which was about why we should remember the (SIXTY FIVE) thousand Irish Men who never returned from the Great War & World War II. Its the first time I have ever heard a R.C. Priest extol the virtue of the Poppy and I have to say it was very welcome considering the tens of thousands of Irish Catholic lives airbrushed out of history. (until now) after the service I walked back to Grafton St wearing my Poppy with pride (Why)? because as my Grandfather died in the Great War also!

Flex

Snickers Man wrote:

Yes it is and no they weren't. I have never spat on my ancestors or their comrades. I spit on the notion that now that we and the British are all friends again (which I warmly welcome) we can rewrite history to suggest that we were always on the same side really, that we never had any real disagreements and that the only people who did were deranged blood thirsty republican/fascist zealots.

Excellent point, and very well said!

Snickers Man

ArthurF wrote:

the tens of thousands of Irish Catholic lives airbrushed out of history. (until now) after the service I walked back to Grafton St wearing my Poppy with pride (Why)? because as my Grandfather died in the Great War also!

Airbrushed out of history?

May I ask: When did you NOT know that your grandfather died in WWI?

Did it come as a major revelation to you in early adulthood? A dirty family secret up there with the brother who was a paedophile priest? (Don't tell anyone but....<whisper> Grandpa was in the army in WWI<whisper>

Or was it something that you've known about since childhood and have never been afraid to mention?

If you really WERE intimidated into not mentioning anything about it, I'd be really curious to hear your story.

magpie

only people who did were deranged blood thirsty republican/fascist zealots

.

Couldn't have put it better myself, except by adding the words Suicidal, Terminally Ill and Homosexual, and for at least one of the members the evidence would point towards Paedophile.

Or was it something that you've known about since childhood and have never been afraid to mention?

If you really WERE intimidated into not mentioning anything about it, I'd be really curious to hear your story.

You're really missing the point here. Nobody is making reference to not knowing your own family history, rather the fact that there is precious little time/energy devoted to remembering these men in official/government circles, and an overgrown little memorial in islandbridge doesn't count.

If we're not big enough to participate in observing the Armistice perhaps its time for Ireland to have its own form of commemoration?

I suggested this last year, but nobody seemed interested, but for what its worth, here goes again:

1) Set a neutral date to commemorate Irish Soldiers
2) Have a symbol: Green Poppy? Shamrock? Swastika? you choose
3) Commemorate all Irish soldiers who fought in all wars, Including WW1, WW2 and Easter 1916 and the War of Independence right up to the Lebanon. Make sure you mention everyone. Even those traitors who fought in Foreign Armies (like the Wild Geese)

Flex

magpie wrote:

. If we're not big enough to participate in observing the Armistice perhaps its time for Ireland to have its own form of commemoration?

I suggested this last year, but nobody seemed interested, but for what its worth, here goes again:

1) Set a neutral date to commemorate Irish Soldiers
2) Have a symbol: Green Poppy? Shamrock? Swastika? you choose
3) Commemorate all Irish soldiers who fought in all wars, Including WW1, WW2 and Easter 1916 and the War of Independence right up to the Lebanon. Make sure you mention everyone. Even those traitors who fought in Foreign Armies (like the Wild Geese)

I dont see how not wanting to support the british legion means we're immature or childish or 'not big' enough. Iv 2 ancestors who died in WW1 and 1 who fought but survived, and theyd probably be spinning in their graves if they heard people going on today that we must have liked british rule since they joined up and the union was really great, and we were fighting because we were a free country or something.

Id like to remember to them, i have absolutely no shame about it, but i wont wear a poppy. we could wear shamrocks dyed red or something; as long as its to commemorate irish soldiers who fought and died, and not british soldiers (or any other foreign soldiers).

Flex

BuffyBot wrote:

No, I think quite a few of them were called "the general public".

Well, the Israeli settlers living in the West Bank would probably like israel to continue occupying the west bank, despite the fact the majority of the people dont. Do you think it would be fair if in 100 years or so, people said 'ah well, the 'general public' wanted israel to continue occupying the west bank, so it mustnt have been that unpopular' ?

magpie

theyd probably be spinning in their graves if they heard people going on today that we must have liked british rule since they joined up and the union was really great, and we were fighting because we were a free country or something

Not sure if anyone's saying that. They joined up because Home Rule had been passed and because they (perhaps foolishly - but hindsight is a great thing) believed they were fighting for ideals.

Red Shamrock is a good idea. Anyone interested in getting something going on this for next year?

Diorraing

magpie wrote:

Red Shamrock is a good idea. Anyone interested in getting something going on this for next year?

No.
Just because these people fought doesn't mean we should commemorate them. When you commemorate soldiers, you commemorate what they died for. You just want to commemorate them because they fought...but as I pointed out to you earlier, many Irish people fought in wars who we don't commemorate because they were not necessarily justified. Its not good enough that these people fought - do the gangs engaged in war in Dublin at the moment deserve to be commemorated because they are fighting?
What did the Irish soldiers in the First World War achieve? - for Ireland or humanity. Give me one good reason and I'll wear your red shamrock

LordSutch

Snickers Man wrote:

Airbrushed out of history?

May I ask: When did you NOT know that your grandfather died in WWI?

Did it come as a major revelation to you in early adulthood? A dirty family secret up there with the brother who was a paedophile priest? (Don't tell anyone but....<whisper> Grandpa was in the army in WWI<whisper>
Or was it something that you've known about since childhood and have never been afraid to mention?
If you really WERE intimidated into not mentioning anything about it, I'd be really curious to hear your story.

A cheap shot Snickers man (with a small m) it is commonly accepted by all and sundry that the Sixty Five Thousand Men who never returned to these shores were airbrushed out of history until recently! we can argue about that fact all day, but it was our President who said it and kevin Myers who printed it! also airbrushed out of history was the sinking of the HMS Leinster with five hundred people on board (sunk by a German U boat) and its only within the last six years that those who died on that ship have been officially recognised, so mr snickers, think about that for a bit and stop beating about the bush, "Sixty Five Thousand Irish men died" and thats the point of wearing the PoPPy - and I will be wearing it again next year (with pride).

LordSutch

ISAW wrote:

But why only remember the British sacrifice? Why not remember the Irish sacrifice or the sacrifice of all the allies powers. Why not commemerate all the UN peacekeepers? Indeed what about the Germans and Japaneese (in particular civilians who dies in WWII)?

A Service of Remembrance is held in St patricks Cathedral every year on or about the 11th/11th, I was there this year and it might surprise you Mr ISAW but Remembrance Day is for all who died (Not only at the Somme) but all Irish UN soldiers as well as Irish personnel who died in the leabanon and all peacekeeping duties! So you see, the Poppy really is a symbol of Remembrance for all including the twelve ambassadors in the Cathedral who wore the Poppy, they were from (Japan, Germany, France, India, Britain, Holland, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Italy, Poland) Our president was also in attendance (as she is every year), its a very thought provoking service and very in tune with all Remembrance Day services being held all over the World on that day .................................

magpie

do the gangs engaged in war in Dublin at the moment deserve to be commemorated because they are fighting?

Possibly, if they believed they were fighting for the good of humanity, which despite your short-sighted cynicism, was why 170,000 volunteers went to France.

To be frank though, that's a deliberately disingenuous argument, and what this boils down to is that your views are diametrically opposed to mine and never the twain shall meet.

Diorraing

magpie wrote:

Possibly, if they believed they were fighting for the good of humanity, which despite your short-sighted cynicism, was why 170,000 volunteers went to France.

To be frank though, that's a deliberately disingenuous argument, and what this boils down to is that your views are diametrically opposed to mine and never the twain shall meet.

I'm open to all opinions. You say they were fighting for humanity in WW1. Fair enough - but how? Did the Germans have concentration camps, did they purge the Jewish people at that time?
Correct me if I'm wrong but WW1 started because of the complicated system of treaties between European powers. Once Austria and Serbia went to war the treaty system was triggered and it was a world war. Please show how this was a justified war?

A Dub in Glasgo

WWI was all about imperialism not humanity

magpie

You both seem to have difficulty grasping the difference between

a) someone in 1914 believing it was just, worthwhile war
and
b) someone in 2005 knowing it was a clash of Imperial powers

Just because b) may be true, it doesn't make the sacrifice of someone who believed a) at the time to be any less, now does it?

DublinWriter

Diorraing wrote:

Please show how this was a justified war?

It's important to regconise the difference in a) what the soliders of both sides thought they were fighting for and b) why WWI was actually fought.

The soliders of both sides thought they were fighting for freedom. That's the reason we celebrate their memory.

Diorraing

DublinWriter wrote:

It's important to regconise the difference in a) what the soliders of both sides thought they were fighting for and b) why WWI was actually fought.

The soliders of both sides thought they were fighting for freedom. That's the reason we celebrate their memory.

The IRA thought they were fighting for freedom. Do you propose we celebrate their memory - not likely.
Too many times in history have people thought they were fighting the just war (c.f. Nazis, Al Queida etc.) - History shall judge which wars were justified and which weren't. 90 years on I can honestly say that WW1 was a fruitless war which nobody really won. It was one of the darkest periods of human history in which people needlessly died. Yes WW1 should be remembered but as a warning to future generations. It should never be celebrated because in the end there was no good prevailing over evil (as in WW2), it was all evil. Nobody was better off because of it.

Snickers Man

ArthurF wrote:

A cheap shot Snickers man (with a small m) it is commonly accepted by all and sundry that the Sixty Five Thousand Men who never returned to these shores were airbrushed out of history until recently!

It's not a cheap shot. I asked you a simple, inoffensive factual question to the effect was there ever a time that you did NOT know about your grandfather's service, and/or whether it was something that you were encouraged to keep quiet about, as if it were something shameful like having a really black sheep in the family.

Now. The fact that your retort is along the lines 'commonly accepted by all and sundry' merely suggests that you're a particularly gullible person who believes the bull**** peddled by the likes of Myers etc because they make forcibly.

The fact that a large bunch of eejits believe it to be so, does not make it so.

As I said before, we don't have a uniformly accepted attitude to what these men did or how our independent republic should recognise what they did and it's absolutley right that that should be the case.

But that doesn't mean that people rewrote history to remove their record. That's just not true.

A Dub in Glasgo

magpie wrote:

You both seem to have difficulty grasping the difference between

a) someone in 1914 believing it was just, worthwhile war
and
b) someone in 2005 knowing it was a clash of Imperial powers

Just because b) may be true, it doesn't make the sacrifice of someone who believed a) at the time to be any less, now does it?

No difficulty at all. I would say that almost every soldier in any war/conflict at any time thinks they are fighting a just, worthwhile war at the time.

WWI should be commemorated as the futility of war, not a celebration of people high up sending millions to their death.

I would commemorate WWI by showing Blackadder Goes Forth

LordSutch

[QUOTE=Snickers. The fact that your retort is along the lines 'commonly accepted by all and sundry' merely suggests that you're a particularly gullible person who believes the bull**** peddled by the likes of Myers etc because they make forcibly.[/QUOTE]

Lets get back to basics Mr Snickers, this thread started off asking about Armistice-Remambrance Day, and the point I am despirately trying to make is that "Sixty Five Thousand" Irish men died in the two World Wars! (thats a lot of men) and thats all I am trying to say, and my Grandfather was one of them - so I wear a Poppy on Remembrance day to remember him and all Irish men who died in the wars, its not meant to be day of celibration, it is just a day of reflection & remembrance.

Snickers Man

ArthurF wrote:

Lets get back to basics Mr Snickers, this thread started off asking about Armistice-Remambrance Day, and the point I am despirately trying to make is that "Sixty Five Thousand" Irish men died in the two World Wars! (thats a lot of men) and thats all I am trying to say, and my Grandfather was one of them - so I wear a Poppy on Remembrance day to remember him and all Irish men who died in the wars, its not meant to be day of celibration, it is just a day of reflection & remembrance.

That's fair enough. And I would respect your wishes and even your motives to commemorate your ancestors. I've been to my grandfather's grave in England and will some day visit my other relatives graves (or commemoration sites in the case where there is none) in France and Belgium.

The fact of remembering the fallen is not the issue. It's how you do it. My point is that wearing the poppy is a loaded way to commemorate Irish soldiers in the British Army. It implies, no matter what some people here say, an endorsement of all the actions taken by that Army in all wars since WWI. Including those against our own compatriots, and others from which it would be quite reasonable for Irish people to dissent. eg the Falklands, Aden, Palestine etc etc

It wasn't our army, it wasn't fighting on our behalf and we had no say in its actions. Ironically, wearing the poppy would in itself be an attempt to 'write out of history' the history of dissent and disagreement between the British Empire and one of the first of its subject nations to achieve independence.

BuffyBot

My point is that wearing the poppy is a loaded way to commemorate Irish soldiers in the British Army.

I think thats more a "my view is" statement than anything else.

arbeitsscheuer

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I would commemorate WWI by showing Blackadder Goes Forth

Actually, we did this in UCD last week.
Dramsoc put on a stage version of the final episode of that series.
I would point out however that just because it is comedy, and indeed just because the war was futile, does not diminish the sacrifice made by those who fought and died in the Great War.

Snickers Man

from Blackadder goes Forth wrote:

Edmund: Do you mean "How did the war start?"

Baldrick: Yeah.

Edmund: ...the real reason for the whole thing was that it
was too much effort *not* to have a war....
..You see, in order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs
developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the
Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other.The idea was tohave two
vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. Thatway
there could never be a war.

Baldrick: But this is a sort of a war, isn't it, sir?

Edmund: Yes, that's right. You see, there was a tiny flaw in the plan.

George: What was that, sir?

Edmund: It was bollocks.

Classic!

And with a message that's still very relevant today.