6 YEARS!!! Mayo Farmer sentenced for manslaughter...

LegacyUser

ireland.com wrote:

A Co Mayo farmer who was found guilty of the manslaughter of a Traveller he shot dead on his property was sentenced to six years in jail at the Central Criminal Court in Dublin today.

Padraig Nally (61) had denied the murder of father-of-11 John Ward (42) at his 65-acre farm in Cross, Co Mayo, last year.

In July, a jury of seven women and five men took two hours and ten minutes to deliver their verdict at Dublin's Central Criminal Court.


Patrick Nally arriving at the Central Criminal Court in Dublin today. Niall Carson/PA
The five-day trial had heard evidence that Mr Nally was a kind and honest man who was always willing to help neighbours with farming chores.

But he lived alone after the death of his parents, had no phone in his house and had been in a state of fear after his new chainsaw was stolen in February last year.

He became obsessed with cars which called at his house, taking down their numbers, and he spent hours in his shed every day with his shotgun.

When he found Mr Ward coming out of the back door of his house, he shot him in the hip from a distance of about four to five yards and then became involved in a struggle with him.

Mr Nally grabbed the wounded man by the neck and shoved him up against the side of his house, describing it later to police as "a real movie-type effort".

He then beat Mr Ward about 20 times with a two-foot ash stick. When Mr Ward ran out of his yard and down the road, he went to his shed, reloaded his single barrel shotgun and shot him for a second time, wounding him fatally.

He threw his body over a wall and drove to a neighbour's house to alert gardaí. Mr Nally later told gardaí he had been out of his mind with fear and that he felt suicidal after the shooting.

But he also said he had decided to shoot Mr Ward because he could not live any longer with the constant visits to his house by Travellers.

Mr Ward had 12 previous convictions for burglary, possession of stolen goods and other offences, and he had been facing charges of attacking Garda officers with a slash hook at the time of his death.

But Mr Ward's 18-year old son, Tom, told the court he had driven his father to the house to look for second-hand cars and not to carry out a burglary.

I feel that this case and media coverage is quite similar to the coverage and public debate that followed the death of Brian Murphy outside Annabels niteclub in August 2000.

Public opinion seems to be split between: the dead man had it coming and deserved what he got (or a more bland form of this argument), and this man should have been charged with murder for the killing of an unarmed man.

Personally I feel that this sentence is madness. While I'm completely against a US-style right to bear arms and protect property, this elderly man was clearly defending his property up to the point where he beat him repeatedly, reloaded his weapon and shot him again.

Law is a very complex thing, and while you can't apply the balance of probability and the spirit of the law, this seems like a harsh decision. I would have gone for a guilty verdict and a suspended sentence. This man is hardly a danger to society.

mike65

bruachain wrote:

Personally I feel that this sentence is madness. While I'm completely against a US-style right to bear arms and protect property, this elderly man was clearly defending his property up to the point where he beat him repeatedly, reloaded his weapon and shot him again.

Hmmmm sounds like murder that last bit.

Mike.

seamus

mike65 wrote:

Hmmmm sounds like murder that last bit.

Mike.

I would tend to agree, though God knows what was going through his mind when he reloaded the weapon.

I think the sentence is largely fair. He hardly murdered a fine, upstanding member of the community in cold blood, but he did kill a man when it wasn't necessary.

LegacyUser

While obviously the deceaseds previous 'form' would have been inadmissable in this particular case,

Mr Ward had 12 previous convictions for burglary, possession of stolen goods and other offences, and he had been facing charges of attacking Garda officers with a slash hook at the time of his death.

any one with an ounce of common sense could not in any way have taken it that he was on the defendants property with noble intentions.

nlgbbbblth

He slaughtered a man.

ferdi

it was all well and good, UP UNTIL HE RELOADED:eek:

kadman

So y'all find a man coming out of the back of your house , and you bid him good day.

Yeh right.

How many of you have been burgaled. I have.

kadman

lomb

hel b out in 3 after good behavior is taken into account, fair enough really considering he killed a man in cold blood. i think it was a lenient enough sentence. funnily enough if that happened in the states the cops wouldnt even have charged him. anyway this is ireland not the states...

lomb

kadman wrote:

So y'all find a man coming out of the back of your house , and you bid him good day.


kadman

of course not, but u dont use a disproportinate amount of force disabling a person. ie reloading a gun would be considered disproportionate by any sane man if he was already down and not threataning your person and thats what the jury or judge thought and rightly so.

Hagar

If we all agree to do two weeks each he could be back out in two weeks.
I'll do next week and the week after. Who's next?

lomb

bruachain wrote:

This man is hardly a danger to society.

no but law consists of precedent as well as written rules. if it was suspended then that sends out a signal that you can shoot a man 100 times and its ok if hes robbing your house or stab him 1000 times. its ok to shoot or stab someone if you are defending yourself with a measured force. the law doesnt deny you that, in fact where tony martin went wrong in the uk, was he shot one robber in the back as he was running out his door and afaik shot him more than once after chasing after him while the guy was running away and this was proved beyond a reasonable doubt. im afraid us style justice doesnt hold water in europe. whether thats right or wrong is for society and the law to decide. at the moment the justice systems here and in the uk define it is wrong to use a disproportionate amount of force to stop someone even if they are robbing u, that is the law and im afraid we all live under it.

Pigman II

Yeah ya can put me down for a couple of days Hagar.

I wonder how much time Nally would have gotten for just shooting the pikey in the hip and then battering the shít outta him? Perhaps no charges would have been made at all in that case considering yer man had no business being on Nallys farm in the first place.

nlgbbbblth

Pigman II wrote:

I wonder how much time Nally would have gotten for just shooting the pikey in the hip and then battering the shít outta him?

Nally would have got a sentence anyway. Probably 2 or 3 years.

On the other hand if Ward had attacked Nally he probably would have got a very light/suspended sentence.

Hagar

My idea of a suspended sentence is a hanging.

nlgbbbblth

Hagar wrote:

My idea of a suspended sentence is a hanging.

current listening: Boo Radleys - I Hang Suspended

BrianD

Very unfortunate and sad case - a man dead and the life of another ruined. The thief had no respect for anyone other than himself. However, we don't have the death penalty for even capital crimes in this country and I would not expect it for a common bully of a thief, tempting as it would be. Two wrongs don't make a right. Interesting discussion on this on the Late Late - the straw poll indicated that the farmer should not have been jailed.

smeggle

It's a difficult situation all right. But in what way? Padraic Nalley by reloading the weapon commited murder not manslaughter. If John Ward had died of his initial injurys then that would have been manslaughter.

Yes he was by all accounts a very ill man with severe paranoia and mental health problems. I fully sympathise with him but the amount of force used and the way in which that force was used leaves no alternative decision in law other than murder. That carries a mandotory term.

I believe the jury gave him a 'Sympathy' verdict of manslaughter as really they could do little else. Technically even with the extenuating circumstances Padraic Nalley commited murder as it is seen in the eyes of the law.

I thought the Late Late show was an insult to both parties concerned. It did little to help the situation. Currently I'm watching the Prime Time programme on it. It's not very balanced and whilst it is understandably abhorrent what some of the traveling community can and do do, it does not mean that anyone has the right to kill 'Unless' absolutely neccessary annd that is when your own life or your familys is in grave danger.

That situation can in no way be applied here. Mr. Nalley shot ward, then beat him and as ward retreated thouroughly beaton was shot in the back. Thats is murder.

My opinion is then that the conviction and sentence is wrong - he should have been convicted of murder and sentenced to life. That is what the evidence and Mr. Nalleys own words say.

damien

Heard an interview with Nally that was replayed on the Last Word tonight. He lives very close to where those two brothers were sexually assaulted and beaten last year and one died in hospital later from the beating. This was where the girl sliced the guys penis off too if I recall. They were travellers too that did it.

Nally said he was guilty and he should do time. When he was reloading the gun he was of the firm belief that the other guy who had fled in the car was getting the rest of the clan to come back and kill him.

Seems to me he believed he was fighting for his life. There seems to be conflicting reports that the second shot was to the head or shot him in the left arm and went through it and into his chest and lungs.

paddycummins

Nally - IMO could have been in fear of his life ... think of it this way ..... what would Ward have done if Nally had let him leave his land .... would he have gone away and never returned to Nally's land ??? I dont think so ..... IMO he would have returned ... more prepared to attack Nally... until one of them died. (Its in his nature/culture to fight till the end)

I'm neither defending or attacking Nally's decision to kill Ward (IMO the facts speak for themselves - reloading does mean murder) - what do you think ?

smeggle

The only reason I can see that it can be thought of in that way is by the knowledge we have been given as to wards character.

In the case of Nally though you are looking at a man who would sit in wait with his shotgun to all hours with the sole intention of what? The only intention I could reasonably conclude, is that he had decided that it was going to be them or me. That is the only logical conclusion. That in itself is an admission of Pre-meditation to inflict the maximum amount of force.

There was absolutely no need to discharge the weapon - I know if I was faced with an Irate farmer with a shotgun I wouldn't be having a go.

Secondly - lets change the scenario slightly. We only have Nallys word after all that he knew ward. Would it have still been manslaughter if Nally had shot say a stranded motorist that was seeking help. Who's only crime was to knock on the door of a person who had let paranoia over rule his logical state of mind?

Would that then have garnered the amount of 'Sympathy' being accosted to Nally at this moment? I'd have to give a firm no myself. The sympathy is only there because of who Ward was and his very savoury past.

Had this been a simple case of a stranded motorist then opinion and the conviction/sentence would have been totally different. Yes the area had a poor reputation in the amount of crime and I do believe fully that anyone has the right to use 'Reasonable' force to protect there property and/or family. Even if that did mean having to shoot someone, hopefully only incapacitating them.

But that is clearly not the case here and Nally went of the rails completly and intentionally and the evidence shows with premeditation killed Ward. The first shot could possibly be construed as self defence but is stretching the limit somewhat. The then beating of ward is a person in an uncontrolled rage and way beyond any logical ideal of 'Reasonable' force. Like ward could defend himself against a raging man with a stick after just being seriously wounded? Hardly and the limit if not way beyond breaking point here is definately so after Nally's next action.

This was where he purposefully re-loaded and shot Ward as he tried to escape and after he had left Nally's property. It is at that point where Nally overstepped the mark of any limit of 'Reasonable' force. He had done what he needed to do to protect his property. His correct course of action then should have been to retreat into his house and request assitance from the Gardi. He choose instead to fully carry out what he had intended to do from the beginning - Kill no matter what the consequences.

That is intention and by that intention is premeditated murder. There is no emotion in Law, he's just lucky the jury members are human and not a machine otherwise with that evidence and despite his previous honest and good character he would have been convicted of murder and would be sentenced to life.

BrianD

I see that there are now calls for the farmer to be released from jail. No matter what the mitigating circumstances were he still committed a crime and there is plenty to suggest that although the first shot may have been a gut reaction the second can only have been deliberate. Two wrongs don't make a right and Mr. Nally must serve his sentence. If we tolerate this type of behaviour where a man can be shot dead for trespass than why would we even think twice about a man who steals to feed his family?

Yep, I hate those scumbags who have no respect for you or your property but we live in a civilised society and we do not need to head down the road of anarchy. I doubt if Nally will serve much of sentence with good behaviour and so on.

The Late Late Show debate was very poor. The problem with Pat Kenny is that he always likes to approach things from the popular opinon or the conventional wisdom even if it is wrong or should be challenged. Pat is a guy who likes to stay popular with the common man. When we hear of an elderly person being beaten up or murdered it revolts every one and I'm sure the first thought in most peopless mind is "I'd kill them". Fortuantely, we live in a civilised society (so I'm told!) and we have a justice system to hold peoples actions accountable. Unfortunately, it is often as imperfect as we are.

Blub2k4

damien.m wrote:

Heard an interview with Nally that was replayed on the Last Word tonight. He lives very close to where those two brothers were sexually assaulted and beaten last year and one died in hospital later from the beating. This was where the girl sliced the guys penis off too if I recall. They were travellers too that did it.

So what's the point? Are you backing up peoples prejudice with more? Totally unrelated side point that only exposes your prejudices. You wouldn't know much about discriminated minorities would you though?

The guy should have been done for murder.

BrianD

Yes, I agree Damien.m's post is spurious to the events. I like in a city where 3 people have been executed in the last few days ... should I be 'tooling up'? Just in case?

I think the jury found him guilty of the crime he committed - manslaughter. I don't think that the murder charge would have been appropriate.

damien

Blub2k4 wrote:

Are you backing up peoples prejudice with more?

That's exactly what I'm doing, you caught me. Shame on me. Jail me now.

Totally unrelated side point that only exposes your prejudices.

That's exactly what I'm doing, you caught me. Shame on me. Jail me now.

You wouldn't know much about discriminated minorities would you though?

Howso?

BrianD

Start running and I'll take a pot shot.

The fact that the victim was a traveller is irrelevant. A discussion at the water cooler indicated that most people would shoot anybody who came through the window of their house.

Snickers Man

paddycummins wrote:

Nally - IMO could have been in fear of his life ... think of it this way ..... what would Ward have done if Nally had let him leave his land .... would he have gone away and never returned to Nally's land ??? I dont think so ..... IMO he would have returned ... more prepared to attack Nally... until one of them died. (Its in his nature/culture to fight till the end)

What is the mentality of a burglar who has been 'wronged' by somebody whose house he tried to burgle?

A while back, I disturbed a young lad in my house. He was late teens/early twenties and had come through the front door which was unlocked. (wouldn't happen now)

Fortunately, a good loud yell of 'Get the **** out of here' sent him scurrying for the gate. I chased after him just to make sure he was gone and he legged it so fast he left his bicycle behind. ( I say 'his' but I strongly suspect it had only recently been 'acquired')

'I'm keeping this, you wanker' I shouted cheerfully after him before I called the police.

When they came and I told them the story and by then I was a bit worried that he might come back to reclaim 'his' property. Wouldn't have bothered me but he could have come at a time when my wife would have been there on her own.

'Nah, he won't come back,' said the cops. 'We reckon we know who he is.'

And he never did.

Now I admit there are some differences between my case and Mr Nally's.
I am in the prime of life and am much larger than the scrawny burglar.
I also live in the city so the police came quickly when called. (less than 5minutes IIR)

Whereas Mr Nally was elderly, no match physically for his intruder and lived in the back of beyond.

But if the question is: 'What effect would being shot and wounded have on the burglar?' well my guess is that Nally would have reported that he winged an intruder on his farm. There would have been an investigation. The cops would have quickly identified the injured man and he and his family would have been left in no doubt that they would be prime suspects in any further assaults on Mr Nally.

Most of these guys are opportunists rather than vindictive. You can't have people going around finishing off burglars just because they're afraid of what might happen in the future.

Six years for manslaughter is fair enough, IMHO.

Culchie

Tensions are running very very high in Mayo at the moment, I would not be surprised if another 'traveller' met with trouble again soon.

The law is turning a complete blind eye to all the 'goings on' taking place in certain areas of Mayo (Charlestown, Swinford, Ballyhaunis areas especially) and there is definitely an ill wind blowing.
The situation is a touchpaper waiting to be lit.

BrianD

Culchie wrote:

Tensions are running very very high in Mayo at the moment, I would not be surprised if another 'traveller' met with trouble again soon.

The law is turning a complete blind eye to all the 'goings on' taking place in certain areas of Mayo (Charlestown, Swinford, Ballyhaunis areas especially) and there is definitely an ill wind blowing.
The situation is a touchpaper waiting to be lit.

Would you care to elaborate? We folk in the city also get broken into but we haven't yet taken to shooting people in the back when they are running away.

On an aside, it's amazing how many of the problems we have in Ireland boil down to bad planning and development by the Government. We now have a situation where one-off housing is allowed. This means we have a dispersed rural population that expect the level of services enjoyed (and effectively subsidised) by those in sustainable developments. These areas are now proving to almost to police and hence we have some rural dwellers sleeping with gun in hand.

Angels

BrianD wrote:

Would you care to elaborate? We folk in the city also get broken into but we haven't yet taken to shooting people in the back when they are running away.

On an aside, it's amazing how many of the problems we have in Ireland boil down to bad planning and development by the Government. We now have a situation where one-off housing is allowed. This means we have a dispersed rural population that expect the level of services enjoyed (and effectively subsidised) by those in sustainable developments. These areas are now proving to almost to police and hence we have some rural dwellers sleeping with gun in hand.

If you haven't noticed there has always been planning for one off housing in rural areas, its actually now that they are getting more strict about it in the planning depts.

People like Nally lived in peace for years until criminals like Ward decided to target people living alone in rural areas & knew he'd get away with it.

At the end of the day if Nally didn't kill Ward. Ward would have killed Nally & gotten away with it eventually:mad:

Culchie

BrianD wrote:

Would you care to elaborate? We folk in the city also get broken into but we haven't yet taken to shooting people in the back when they are running away.

On an aside, it's amazing how many of the problems we have in Ireland boil down to bad planning and development by the Government. We now have a situation where one-off housing is allowed. This means we have a dispersed rural population that expect the level of services enjoyed (and effectively subsidised) by those in sustainable developments. These areas are now proving to almost to police and hence we have some rural dwellers sleeping with gun in hand.

(a) I also live in the city

(b) I would like to elaborate but will be accused of some sort of racism.

However one factual comment I will make is that the police are turning a blind eye, they are afraid of tackling crime amongst the travelling community, even when they are witnessing the crimes taking place.
It's disgusting what's going on, and then we get on RTE news an article on the 'art gallery of travellers' and 'pavee point' people on swearing butter wouldn't melt in their mouth.

BrianD

No, one off planning regulations have in fact been relaxed and you have only to look at the environmental nightmare that is the Irish countryside. And we have a cheek to criticise Bush for not signing up to the Kyoto protocols.

Anyway, back on topic. Travellers are not the only bands of thieves touring the countryside. Agreed that the standard of policing in any part of Ireland is disgraceful. However, I somewhat doubt that they idly stand by while a crime is being commissioned.

There is absolutley no evidence to support the theory that Ward would have killed or injured Nally. In fact the evidence supports the notion that Ward would not have entered into a confrontation with a house owner. He was a common thief. It is the lowest of the low Nally was wrong and the sentence is fitting to the crime he committed.