Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

muesli_offire

Just heard Enda Kenny's remark that Irish should be an optional Leaving cert subject. Seems to make a lot of sense, as continental languages are more important. Any opinions? Also, why do leaving cert subjects like French, which is spoken by many millions of people all over the world, lack a literary bias while Irish does not?

PowerHouseDan

I think it should be optional. But thats just my view.

muesli_offire

Mise freisin. I mean I enjoyed Irish in school and all, but it is a bit of a drag for students in schools where subject choices are limited and who hence find it difficult to fit both a continental language and a preferred science or practical subject into their timetable.

Mogwa

Ok im in 6th year and I do honours Irish.Personally I think Irish should be a choice when you come into secondary school and not compulsory in Primary.I also study German and find I know alot more German than Irish if i was back in first year I would pick Irish because it would be something new and make me feel more Irish.Just an idea!

Diorraing

muesli_offire wrote:

Just heard Enda Kenny's remark that Irish should be an optional Leaving cert subject. Seems to make a lot of sense, as continental languages are more important

Not necessarily. I did Irish, French, German and Latin (all higher level) for my Leaving Cert. Haven't used French or German since, used the odd bit of Latin and use Irish loads of the time. Where I live, you can't get French or German T.V or radio but you can get Irish language T.V and Radio. I never ever see French or German newspapers but Foinse is for sale in ever single shop I walk into (and Lá is pretty common aswell). Even look at the boards language forum. Besides English Irish has the most threads and views - by miles!
The reason why some people detest Irish is because they haven't been taught it properly at primary school level. If they were fluent coming into secondary school they would find the poems etc. far easier.

Gael

I agree totally that the teaching methods are crap and many are leaving school with little or no fluency, but making it a choice subject will not fix that.
The teaching system should be overhauled. Just making Irish optional is a cop-out. It won't really address the issue. All it'll mean is that a smaller minority of students will be taught by the same incompetent teachers with crap teaching methods.

Ron DMC

I'm not even going to tell you all how pissed off I am.
Let's just say that I have lost all respect I once had for Enda Kenny and his Fine Gael lackeys.:mad: :mad: :mad:
Damn quitters couldn't come up with a way to rectify the problems with Irish teaching so they just did away with it.

Red Alert

Is é mo thuairim go bhfuil athrú iomlán ag teastáil uainn. Currently the cúrsa gaeilge in secondary school consists of a language and a literary element, and a small section entitled stair na gaeilge.

This I presume comes from the definition of Irish as our primary language, and assumes that it's the vernacular like english. I really enjoyed the language element but I found the literary element quite hard to manage despite scoring an A1 in the leaving higher level. Less of an emphasis on complicated Irish poetry would be a big step, or possibly just remove poetry from the ordinary level course.

Making the subject optional would be a good step in my opinion for the Irish language's continued survival. The course should be based around dealing with everyday situations as gaeilge. Cad iad na focail atá ag baint leis an idirlín mar shampla? A friend from work who was brought up by her irish-speaking grandmother and whose b/f was also a gaeilgeoir, and wore a small badge to the effect that she could do business in irish if required, said that from her point of view the irish course was outdated. although she wanted to ring the tax office as gaeilge, the irish course in school didn't give her the tools to do it.

an optional course with real everyday use of the language is the only way an gaeilge is going to get a real shot as a used language. plenty of oral and aural should be included to really get people comfortable with it - it's much easier to write what sounds familiar!

Dyr

Diorraing wrote:

The reason why some people detest Irish is because they haven't been taught it properly at primary school level. If they were fluent coming into secondary school they would find the poems etc. far easier.

Its been a while since my school days but thats spot on in my opinion, I think the problem starts in primary school. For example I went to a primary gael scoil and irish was a breeze simply because it was second nature for us. There wasnt a child who left that school not fluent in irish. Onto a secondary gaeil scoil and the (then) Inter cert level irish was a nightmare, dull, obscure, emphasis on gramadach etc and taught by bad tempered fanatics. I left that place after three years and went to an english speaking secondary school. The level of spoken irish there by otherwise intelligent, capable students was abysmal. How the hell can people be expected to pass an exam when they dont even speak the language? So yeah, the secondary irish system doesnt work but mainly because the primary curriculum sets most students up for a fall.

Hopefully things have changed for the better since my time but if the govt is serious about promoting irish as a spoken language then i think the answer is more gaeil scoil at primary level.

Red Alert

just wondering did you leave the gaelscoil because of the irish?

dubhthach

it doesn't say much for way its thought when people can leave school speaking french after 5years but their irish is cack after 13years.

Mary Hanafin is quoted in the Irish Times today saying bout changing exams so that the oral makes up 50%. In my opinion breakdown should be switched to something like this:
50% -> Oral
20% -> Aural
30% -> Written

My 2cents

Suaimhneach

I've been saying it for years. Split irish into two levels. One being taught at the level French and German are taught, conversational. And then another one at a "higher" level, some prose and stories. Some Irish language history, the language revival, all interesting. Grammer should only be taught in basic form. This results in two forms of people graduating secondary. A gratduated youth with conversational, or better, irish.

Irish is mainly hated because of the way it is taught. It's no harder than learning any other langauge and it is important to keep it alive starting from a young age. It's a fault with the educational system that needs to be fixed.

There is also the issue of teachers being inept at teaching it because of their own loathing of the language. IF the teacher dislikes it, then the students aren't likely to enjoy it. Gael Linn have sent out workbooks, for teachers, with one page in Irish, and the facing page entirely in English in order to try change this. However, as a teacher, if you associate irish with learning from a bad system and struggling to pass to get to college, it's hard to change that persona with just a book.

Now to just get a TD to listen to me, to bring it to the Dáil and to get it all changed. Or something.

Diorraing

Jesjes wrote:

I've been saying it for years. Split irish into two levels. One being taught at the level French and German are taught, conversational. And then another one at a "higher" level, some prose and stories. Some Irish language history, the language revival, all interesting. Grammer should only be taught in basic form. This results in two forms of people graduating secondary. A gratduated youth with conversational, or better, irish.

Great idea, not only will it make the learning of the language easier for people not fluent in Irish, it will make the subject somewhat more challenging for those with fluent Irish. I'm a fluent speaker and thought the Leaving Cert paper was easy to the level of insulting (Ré Ó Laighléis? - hardly Shakespeare na Gaeilge). I would much prefer to have studied Briain Merriman or Seathrún Keating. On the other hand, some of my friends who weren't as priviliged as me to be fluent found the course impossible. Doing poems with them when they don't know how to speak it is absurd. Hats off to you for that suggestion, Jesjes

Red Alert

People might then actually use it. I got an awful shock when i bumped into a fluent irish speaker at a dance class who actually enjoyed using her irish.

Dyr

Red Alert wrote:

just wondering did you leave the gaelscoil because of the irish?

Nope, not at all. I was fluent by the time i left primary, and our primary school really encouraged us to use irish socially etc. I just hated that secondary school...christian brothers :eek:

EvilPixieOne

I think the teaching should definatly be improved upon. It's crazy when irish is my worst subject that I have to keep it on for the leaving when I have so many more other subjects that I would rather be doing and that I could do better in. If I can have nearly fluent german after 3 years and yet cannot put one sentence of irish together there is something seriously wrong

Diorraing

EvilPixieOne wrote:

I think the teaching should definatly be improved upon. It's crazy when irish is my worst subject that I have to keep it on for the leaving when I have so many more other subjects that I would rather be doing and that I could do better in. If I can have nearly fluent german after 3 years and yet cannot put one sentence of irish together there is something seriously wrong

Thats fine, maybe you should have the choice. As long as I, who am not good at Maths should have the choice to drop that aswell. Perhaps a two out of the three system would work better

Red Alert

there's two ways of looking at it. if you go compulsory you have to split the courses to make any sensible outcome: have conversational irish as the compulsory and the literary stuff as the optional. or else you put the entire thing optional.

either way is a win-win. the ordinary person who couldn't give a toss isn't forced to learn reams of stuff they don't want to and they also leave with a decent standard of conversational irish and plus they probably won't resent doing it. and the rest of us can feel free to study irish as a serious subject without the 'attitude' that some people who don't want to be in the class have.

Ron DMC

Red Alert wrote:

I got an awful shock when i bumped into a fluent irish speaker at a dance class who actually enjoyed using her irish.

There's more of us than you think. I usually spend up to a third of my day conversing through Irish.

Suaimhneach

EvilPixieOne wrote:

I think the teaching should definatly be improved upon. It's crazy when irish is my worst subject that I have to keep it on for the leaving when I have so many more other subjects that I would rather be doing and that I could do better in. If I can have nearly fluent german after 3 years and yet cannot put one sentence of irish together there is something seriously wrong

I absolutely agree with you! I had the ability to drop chemistry, thank god, otherwise I would have had a fail on my leaving cert.

I'm just pointing out, Enda Kennys suggestion treats the problem/symtom and not the cause.

If the education system had of been changed ten years ago, [longer, most likely, but for the purpose of the arguement] then your standard of Irish would be much higher and you would be learning at an ability to suit you.

However, it costs much much more to change the education system, then to just make a subject optional. And our government suck at changing anything. Just look how badly people did when they changed home eac and sciences for the first time in about 15 years. Standards were MUCH lower.

I think Irish for the leaving cert, pressure for points, fear of failure are all leading people to hate Irish. That is understandable. Don't hate the language though, hate the system that teaches it in a bad way.

DAMN THE MAN!

Also, thanks Diorraing, shame its so hard to actually do anything about my suggestion!

segadreamcast

Jesjes wrote:

I absolutely agree with you! I had the ability to drop chemistry, thank god, otherwise I would have had a fail on my leaving cert.

I'm just pointing out, Enda Kennys suggestion treats the problem/symtom and not the cause.

If the education system had of been changed ten years ago, [longer, most likely, but for the purpose of the arguement] then your standard of Irish would be much higher and you would be learning at an ability to suit you.

However, it costs much much more to change the education system, then to just make a subject optional. And our government suck at changing anything. Just look how badly people did when they changed home eac and sciences for the first time in about 15 years. Standards were MUCH lower.

I think Irish for the leaving cert, pressure for points, fear of failure are all leading people to hate Irish. That is understandable. Don't hate the language though, hate the system that teaches it in a bad way.

DAMN THE MAN!

Also, thanks Diorraing, shame its so hard to actually do anything about my suggestion!

Everything you've said would lead anyone to the logical conclusion that, thus, Irish should be optional. Many of you are letting emotion and sentimentality interfere with logic on the issue.

Incidentally, this topic should really be on the 'Politics' forum - the Gaeilge board is hardly gonna ensure a rational unbiased debate on Irish, is it?

Solair

I think perhaps, Irish language classes could be kept compulsary but it could be made optional for your leaving cert examination.

i.e. it should be possible for every student to take some enjoyable irish classes, get a feel for the language... use it etc.. without being tortured by exams at the end.

The irish education system's totally skewed toward those who are good at languages.

i.e. to get into university you have to do English, Irish AND a modern European language... and to get the necessary points, you have to do pretty well at them too.

If you happen to have a strong maths/science ability and poor language skills you're screwed. If you happen to be very practical and do well at art and hands-on subjects you're equally screwed.

I think its grossly unfair to force people to take it as an academic subject and it's done irrepairable damage to the language as many people grow up hating it and seeing it as a compulsary burdon.

dudara

I'm an Irish speaker from Gaeltacht Mhuscraí. I don't actively promote Irish, which is a bit of a shame, but I am fiercely proud of it.

Making Irish optional is a joke. It needs to be compulsory, but the syllabus and teaching methods employed need a radical overhaul. In fact, jesjes' idea concerning the two-tier teaching approach is a very good idea.

segadreamcast

dudara wrote:

It needs to be compulsory,

Quantify that remark.

Suaimhneach

NoelRock, yes, a lot of us will be feircely proud of the language. But if we were to leave that aside, to make irish an optional subject would be the death of the language.

And you missed the point I made. You would not dislike [people in general as well] the irish language as much if you didnt have to struggle so much. People associate negative feelings towards it. THATS what needs to be changed. And thats changed by addressing the education system and the teaching methods.

But you're right, if I didnt care about the language I would just be logical about it and let it become optional. But if we let that happen it will just be another loss to us and our culture and another step towards becoming more "european".

mickd

We need to look at how best we can promote and strengthen the Irish language in the education system and in irish society . We can look at teaching methods at primary and secondary level. If this means making it optional in the Leaving Cert then it has to be. I have contributed to this debate on many times and have had 'lively jousts' with other boards members as I believe in having our own language. However its a psychological thing that if you are forced to do something that you don't like you will never change your view so as soon as the 'shackles are off' i.e when students leave school they sever any contact with the language. Comparisions with Wales we made in the Dail this morning in that modest targets are set and acheived.

dudara

why do I feel Irish needs to be compulsory.

My thoughts on this aren't probably to everyone's views, but hey, free speech and all. This country has fought anglicisation for a long time. In the 19th century, Irish was dying out as there was a common association with it and poverty. People were deliberately not speaking their mother tongue.

Along came the nationalist movement of the late 19th centurry, who were co-incidentally Irish speakers. They saw the link between nationalism and language. In modern Ireland, we're even more exposed to other influences than the Irish of a hundred years ago, which is even more reason to strengthen our national identity.

I despise the encroaching influence that England, for example, has on this country. Between 7-9pm, all you can see on the television are mainly english soaps, english talent (or talentless) shows. We, as a majority, are buying wholesale into a different country's way of life.

Now, I don't particularly mind if that continues, because after all we live in a world of supply and demand and there is demand for such english cráp. But we have to reinforce our Irishness as well.

Irish has to remain compulsory. It's a key to maintaining our national identity.

Otherwise, how will the winning captains of GAA teams accept their trophies?

Peanut

dudara wrote:

...
Irish has to remain compulsory. It's a key to maintaining our national identity.

And create more resentment towards it in the future from the current crop of school-leavers?

I absolutely despised having been force-fed Irish at school, not that I was particulary happy about some other compulsory subjects, but I got the distinct feeling that I was being forced to endure this pain for someone else's ideology and attempts to force a specific culture on me - and it was this in particular that was just wrong.

Ironic that English was indirectly forced upon the Irish in the past, and now some people want to return the favour on already pressured students.

You could argue that this is no different than compulsory English - however the fact remains that English is the mother tongue of the vast majority of the
population on this island.

If Irish needs to be promoted then find some other way than the George W. approach - it does no-one any favours, especially not the language itself.

And I would argue that language is only a small part of what you might call a national identity.

mickd

Peanut wrote:

And I would argue that language is only a small part of what you might call a national identity.

I would argue that for the vast majority of Irish people their national identity does not extend to having their own language. That is beacuse of the education system and the imposition of Irish language.

Suaimhneach

I havent read the last two post, and am in a rush, but there was a massive MASSIVE protest today in front of Trinity iirc, against what Enda Kenny said.

The people don't want it.

Will get more involved again, later.

Ron DMC

Jesjes wrote:

but there was a massive MASSIVE protest today in front of Trinity iirc, against what Enda Kenny said.

Yeah, I helped organise it. We had somewhere around 350/400 show up in the end. Twas fairly good. And when Enda stepped out of his office to talk to us, he had hardly a clue on what to say.
As a gaeilgeoir himself, he should be ashamed of his comments and realise that a better education system comes with change, not with scaling down.

Peanut

Jesjes wrote:

...
The people don't want it.

Whatever. I think you are very wrong there.

I'm sure Ógra Fianna Fáil and Labour Youth don't want it, but ask the majority of secondary students about it and I will bet that you will get a polar opposite opinion. But apparently they don't count - they're just the ones being pushed around in this.

Notwithstanding the fact that it's mostly just politics, it's not as if he's calling for Irish to be dropped altogether.

"He is proposing that Irish remain a compulsory part of the curriculum up to Junior Certificate level but that students would then be given an option to drop the language in the final two years of secondary school. "
http://news.google.ie/url?sa=t&ct=us/2-0&fp=437bd23c899eb858&ei=Cct7Q-_KGriwaPDPiMAL&url=http%3A//www.nuzhound.com/goto.php%3Fid%3D132957&cid=0

Hardly shocking stuff, well overdue in my opinion.

Suaimhneach

Peanut wrote:

I absolutely despised having been force-fed Irish at school, not that I was particulary happy about some other compulsory subjects, but I got the distinct feeling that I was being forced to endure this pain for someone else's ideology and attempts to force a specific culture on me - and it was this in particular that was just wrong.

Woah, what a distinct feeling....

You make my point again. You dislike irish because you were forced to learn it. The problem is not the "forcing" it's what was "forced" and how it was done, do you follow? We are all forced to go to school, to pay bills etc. Heh, I get the distint feeling I pay bills so Bertie can waste it distroying our heritage.... ANYWAY. Its the content/method and not nessarcarly the subject that is the issue, and people don't recognise this. And they really need to start.

Peanut, I'd wager there are equal amounts of people for and against it, for many different reasons.

And saying the opinion of leaving cert students doesnt matter, you're right! What the heck do they know!? They just want to get through the leaving cert and continue on in whatever it is that they plan to do. Without the nagging need to study something they've been taught backwards for their 15 years or more in school. I'd say a small percentage of them actually think about what effect making irish optional on the leaving cert would actually have other than them having to sit one more/less exam. I did the leaving not to long ago, I can tell you, they won't care, and would carelessly throw away their language for an easier time. And who can blame them, the whole feckin' system is backwards!

Ronny Mitchell, are you involved with a political party or were you just helping out for the language? I'd like to get involved if there is no political agenda.

JustCoz

I think that Enda Kenny is a disgrace for even proposing the idea of making Irish optional for the Leaving Cert. He's only looking for a quick fix to a more intricate problem. The only thing that that would achieve would be to drive the language into extinction.

People don't hate Irish because it's compulsary, they hate it because it's being taught the wrong way. It's shocking the amount of people who spend 14 years learning Irish and can't now string a sentence together. I agree with the people who say that the course should be more oral-orientated. This is the only way to put the language into a practical use. However making it optional is completely the wrong way to go in my opinion.

simu

JustCoz wrote:

I think that Enda Kenny is a disgrace for even proposing the idea of making Irish optional for the Leaving Cert. He's only looking for a quick fix to a more intricate problem. The only thing that that would achieve would be to drive the language into extinction.

It does sound like a quick fix alright (and a sourse of cheap publicity). He didn't mention any concrete points about how the course would be improved for those who still decided to take Irish even if not compulsary. I was never a big FG fan anyway!

TDs are pretty clueless about languages. Bertie or some other TD in the Irish Times today was saying that there should be more emphasis on the spoken aspect and less on "boring" grammer. I agree with the first part but actually, it's important to understand the grammer of a language if you are going to learn to speak it well. The problem is that most students are taught grammer in a very patchy way so that it seems much more complicated and random than it actually is.

segadreamcast

Jesjes wrote:

Woah, what a distinct feeling....

You make my point again. You dislike irish because you were forced to learn it. The problem is not the "forcing" it's what was "forced" and how it was done, do you follow? We are all forced to go to school, to pay bills etc. Heh, I get the distint feeling I pay bills so Bertie can waste it distroying our heritage.... ANYWAY. Its the content/method and not nessarcarly the subject that is the issue, and people don't recognise this. And they really need to start.

*Buzz* Wrong.

Nobody likes doing things they have to do - like paying the bills, going to school, but these things are NECESSARY.

You know what people like less than doing things that they have to do though? Things that they have to do that are entirely unnecessary. Case in point: Irish. The "we have to because we have to" mentality doesn't wash. Nor does the "we have to because we're Irish". Being Irish meant a lot of things - such as being Catholic. However, this is no longer the case - our cultural identity evolves and, if we no longer have the need for a national language, then so be it. What, pray tell, are you Anglophobes fearing?

JustCoz

Having our own language is part of our identity as a nation. It's what distinguishes us from other countries.

Take Canada for example, it is such a young country, only 150 yrs old or something, they don't have their own language and not much culture to speak of. We have both and it's what makes our country special. It's got nothing to do with "Anglophobia".

Suaimhneach

Haha NoelRock! That was funny.

Yeah, I agree and understand where you're coming from in certain terms. There is no "need" to learn the language. But I feel, as many do, that if we give up that language [ and that is what we do when we dont teach it in our schools ] that were are just letting another little bit of us slip away.

I don't so much argue that "its our culture", though it is part of it. I argue more, that if we give it up, we inch closer and closer to being European and less and less "irish". And what it is to be irish is a whole other topic, but I certainly feel irish is part of it. And that it is "necessary" to learn it.

segadreamcast

Jesjes wrote:

Haha NoelRock! That was funny.

Yeah, I agree and understand where you're coming from in certain terms. There is no "need" to learn the language. But I feel, as many do, that if we give up that language [ and that is what we do when we dont teach it in our schools ] that were are just letting another little bit of us slip away.

I don't so much argue that "its our culture", though it is part of it. I argue more, that if we give it up, we inch closer and closer to being European and less and less "irish". And what it is to be irish is a whole other topic, but I certainly feel irish is part of it. And that it is "necessary" to learn it.

Ideological differences between us - I can hardly argue with that!

robindch

> Irish has to remain compulsory. It's a key to maintaining
> our national identity.

I sat through 12 years of Irish and haven't used it once in the 20 years since I left school. What a total waste of time!

ishmael whale

The main reason people seem to be defending compulsory Irish is on grounds that they see it as part of national identity. If it was, there would hardly be a need to make it compulsory. We don’t need to force people to play GAA, listen to Irish music or, for that matter, eat Tayto or drink red lemonade.

Irish is simply not part of the identity of many Irish people. Forcing it on them creates resentment. People advocating the removal of compulsory Irish will, in the long run, do more to promote its wider use.

Part of the problem in teaching the language is there still seems to be a reluctance to accept that it needs to be taught in the same way as a foreign language, as most of the children will come from households with very little knowledge. I made this point on a thread on the Politics board and was challenged to substantiate it. I did by posting these extracts from ‘Inis Dom’, the primary school Irish text that I’m aware of, which might be of interest to this discussion. It seems to be the text in use in many primary school, as any parent I’ve discussed this with knows of it.

To give context, the basic English reader in use for, say, infants opens with a section that explains to parents how they should use the text e.g. encouraging the child to discuss what’s happening in pictures, as well as them just reading whatever is printed on the page. Hunky dory, any parent knows what they’re supposed to be doing.

In ‘Inis Dom’ the equivalent text is in Irish. Here’s a few extracts, along with what sense I can make of them. I’m not saying these directions are hard for someone with good Irish, but someone with mediocre Irish is lost.

Reamhra Comhrá ranga, comhrá beírte, cleachtaí éisteacha, séalta, dramaí, dánta taitneamhacha, cluichi cainte, cleachtai sodheanta, tomhais, rabhloga – tá said go leir sa leabhar seo. ….

I can make out here the author is telling us all of the things that are in the book (‘sa leabhar seo’) but, apart from a few individual words namely ‘comhra’ lesson?, ‘cainte’ talk, I can’t actually tell what this sentence is saying. For example, I have no idea what dánta taitneamhacha, cluichi, sodheanta, tomhais or rabhloga are supposed to mean.

Sna ceachtanna athbhreithnithe deantar dul siar ar a bhfuil deanta ag an rang trí mhean na scealaiochta is na dramaiochta…..

He’s telling us something about things being done in class ‘a bhfuil deanta ag an rang’ but what those things are, and whether we should be taking any interest in them, I just don’t know.

Meadóidh sin, go bhfios dom, a sult is a suim sna scealta ceanna…..

I might as well be looking down a manhole.

I can’t account for why Irish textbooks are still written like this, apart from a reluctance to admit that despite all the effort put into revival Irish is still largely unknown to most of us. Removing compulsory leaving cert Irish is a necessary measure in acknowledging the reality of the position of language in Irish life.

segadreamcast

ishmael whale wrote:

The main reason people seem to be defending compulsory Irish is on grounds that they see it as part of national identity. If it was, there would hardly be a need to make it compulsory. We don’t need to force people to play GAA, listen to Irish music or, for that matter, eat Tayto or drink red lemonade.

Irish is simply not part of the identity of many Irish people. Forcing it on them creates resentment. People advocating the removal of compulsory Irish will, in the long run, do more to promote its wider use.

Part of the problem in teaching the language is there still seems to be a reluctance to accept that it needs to be taught in the same way as a foreign language, as most of the children will come from households with very little knowledge. I made this point on a thread on the Politics board and was challenged to substantiate it. I did by posting these extracts from ‘Inis Dom’, the primary school Irish text that I’m aware of, which might be of interest to this discussion. It seems to be the text in use in many primary school, as any parent I’ve discussed this with knows of it.

To give context, the basic English reader in use for, say, infants opens with a section that explains to parents how they should use the text e.g. encouraging the child to discuss what’s happening in pictures, as well as them just reading whatever is printed on the page. Hunky dory, any parent knows what they’re supposed to be doing.

In ‘Inis Dom’ the equivalent text is in Irish. Here’s a few extracts, along with what sense I can make of them. I’m not saying these directions are hard for someone with good Irish, but someone with mediocre Irish is lost.I can make out here the author is telling us all of the things that are in the book (‘sa leabhar seo’) but, apart from a few individual words namely ‘comhra’ lesson?, ‘cainte’ talk, I can’t actually tell what this sentence is saying. For example, I have no idea what dánta taitneamhacha, cluichi, sodheanta, tomhais or rabhloga are supposed to mean. He’s telling us something about things being done in class ‘a bhfuil deanta ag an rang’ but what those things are, and whether we should be taking any interest in them, I just don’t know.I might as well be looking down a manhole.

I can’t account for why Irish textbooks are still written like this, apart from a reluctance to admit that despite all the effort put into revival Irish is still largely unknown to most of us. Removing compulsory leaving cert Irish is a necessary measure in acknowledging the reality of the position of language in Irish life.

Bravo, you expressed my sentiments (and those of many others, I assure you) far more eloquently than I could.

Gael

robindch wrote:

> Irish has to remain compulsory. It's a key to maintaining
> our national identity.

I sat through 12 years of Irish and haven't used it once in the 20 years since I left school. What a total waste of time!

Personally I've been out of school for a while and any aspect of Maths and English that I've used since, was something I had learned in primary school(i.e. basic arithmetic and spelling)
All I've ever did throughout secondary school was short stories and poetry and stuff like calculus and trigonometry which I've never used since and am never likely to either. Shakespeare, Keats and Kavanagh. What job would they get me?
So do you consider all that to have been a waste? Should I have been allowed drop English and maths at 12 years of age purely because I had the basics for the market place. Is that all education is about?

Suaimhneach

robindch wrote:

> Irish has to remain compulsory. It's a key to maintaining
> our national identity.

I sat through 12 years of Irish and haven't used it once in the 20 years since I left school. What a total waste of time!

Maybe if you had of been taught properly in school, you would have had the oppertunity to use it. Ever think of it like that....?

Suaimhneach

ishmael whale wrote:

The main reason people seem to be defending compulsory Irish is on grounds that they see it as part of national identity. If it was, there would hardly be a need to make it compulsory. We don’t need to force people to play GAA, listen to Irish music or, for that matter, eat Tayto or drink red lemonade.

Irish is simply not part of the identity of many Irish people. Forcing it on them creates resentment. People advocating the removal of compulsory Irish will, in the long run, do more to promote its wider use.

Part of the problem in teaching the language is there still seems to be a reluctance to accept that it needs to be taught in the same way as a foreign language, as most of the children will come from households with very little knowledge. I made this point on a thread on the Politics board and was challenged to substantiate it. I did by posting these extracts from ‘Inis Dom’, the primary school Irish text that I’m aware of, which might be of interest to this discussion. It seems to be the text in use in many primary school, as any parent I’ve discussed this with knows of it.

To give context, the basic English reader in use for, say, infants opens with a section that explains to parents how they should use the text e.g. encouraging the child to discuss what’s happening in pictures, as well as them just reading whatever is printed on the page. Hunky dory, any parent knows what they’re supposed to be doing.

In ‘Inis Dom’ the equivalent text is in Irish. Here’s a few extracts, along with what sense I can make of them. I’m not saying these directions are hard for someone with good Irish, but someone with mediocre Irish is lost.I can make out here the author is telling us all of the things that are in the book (‘sa leabhar seo’) but, apart from a few individual words namely ‘comhra’ lesson?, ‘cainte’ talk, I can’t actually tell what this sentence is saying. For example, I have no idea what dánta taitneamhacha, cluichi, sodheanta, tomhais or rabhloga are supposed to mean. He’s telling us something about things being done in class ‘a bhfuil deanta ag an rang’ but what those things are, and whether we should be taking any interest in them, I just don’t know.I might as well be looking down a manhole.

I can’t account for why Irish textbooks are still written like this, apart from a reluctance to admit that despite all the effort put into revival Irish is still largely unknown to most of us. Removing compulsory leaving cert Irish is a necessary measure in acknowledging the reality of the position of language in Irish life.

You just pointed out that the "revival" that is mainly focused in the schools for kids isn't working. How parents are completely lost. How this doesn't work. I agree with you.

Don't you think we should change this as opposed to just getting rid of it?

Peanut

Gael wrote:

All I've ever did throughout secondary school was short stories and poetry and stuff like calculus and trigonometry which I've never used since and am never likely to either. Shakespeare, Keats and Kavanagh. What job would they get me?

You may not be required to quote Shakespeare in a job interview, but that's not the point - it's studied as a tool to improve language comprehension & composition. Same idea with maths beyond basic numeracy.

So do you consider all that to have been a waste? Should I have been allowed drop English and maths at 12 years of age purely because I had the basics for the market place. Is that all education is about?

Yes I think people should be given more choice instead of less, however this has to reflect the realism of the environment that they are in.

There would be little point in compulsory teaching of, for example, Portugeuse to German students, why then do we have to suffer the forced imposition of a language that is in effect foreign to most students.

You may not like it, but Irish is for all practical purposes a foreign language to the majority of Irish students.

It's completely understandable why this jars with some people, however I strongly disagree with the ludicrous mindset of forcing a given 2nd language on to people, throughout secondary, without giving them a choice in the matter.

The fact is that it doesn't work, and it creates far more problems than it allegedly tries to 'solve'.

When are they going to stop? When everyone on the island is forced to speak as Gaeilge?

This is politics, and to use school children in such a way is tantamount to linguistic child abuse.

JustCoz

I'm just wondering, a few people have suggested that by making Irish optional this will ultimately promote it's wider use. How?

We all know that making it optional is just a way of phasing it out. I will admit that when I was younger I didn't like Irish much, so I can see where other people are coming from, but after spending 5 summers in the Gaeltacht have developed a life-long love for it. I think that people see it as a waste of time because they see it as being a dead language. But if you go down to Conamara or Ghaoith Dobhair you'll see that it is very much alive.

ishmael whale

JustCoz wrote:

I'm just wondering, a few people have suggested that by making Irish optional this will ultimately promote it's wider use. How?

Firstly, by removing the resentment that comes from imposition. That allows people to relate to Irish simply as a language and not as something that someone else thinks should be part of your identity.

Secondly, by forcing the Irish language teaching establishment to accommodate the needs of English speakers. If you’re not sure what I mean, have a look at my post above.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50402311&postcount=41

Peanut

JustCoz wrote:

I'm just wondering, a few people have suggested that by making Irish optional this will ultimately promote it's wider use. How?

We all know that making it optional is just a way of phasing it out.

No it's not - the parts of Irish language that I like are those relating to music, lyrics, art in general - bascially whatever I DIDN'T learn (or not learn) in school.

People don't take well to having stuff rammed down their throats - I would have thought this basic concept was clear to everyone.

Redesign the whole teaching structure - split it into different optional parts - give people more choice in what they want to learn & don't try to force them to be fluent in it - it just doesn't work without the will from the student, and this doesn't come from heavy handedness.

gingerjimjim

I dislike speaking and learning the language but i have no problem as it as a language. I think it should be optional, as it is falling in to great disuse and i think it nothing is going to stop it's decline. I still think it should be a subject, just not cumpolsery

JustCoz

IMO the biggest problem at the moment is that the course is very grammer-oriented and in most schools you don't start to do oral work until 6th year. In reality were not going to use written Irish after school/college but spoken Irish is the way to promote and encourage use of the language.

Is mór an trua é that so many people hate it because they can't speak it. Real fluency in any language comes from putting it into practise by speaking it. If there was 100% more emphasis on spoken Irish in schools i think that this would solve a large part of the problem.