Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

donaghkebab

if you made all these changes in the primary school and make all schools gaelscoils you'd have the kids talking in no time

ishmael whale

donaghkebab wrote:

if you made all these changes in the primary school and make all schools gaelscoils you'd have the kids talking in no time

Indeed, more could be achieved if all primary schools had the same level of resourcing as gaelscoils. But that costs money.

Grudaire

Gabh mo leiscéil, ach an mbeidh an bearla 'optional' do daltaí gaelach?

For the less able among you will english be optional for irish students?

If not this blind racism, with no thought for the culture which will be destroyed

Ron DMC

Cliste wrote:

Gabh mo leiscéil, ach an mbeidh an bearla 'optional' do daltaí gaelach?

Aontaím leat gur cheart go mbeadh an rogha againn i ngach ábhar má tá an rogha ann don Ghaeilge, ach i ndáiríre ní dóigh liom go dtarlóidh aon rud ar bhonn na rudaí a dúirt Enda.

If not this blind racism, with no thought for the culture which will be destroyed

Ní bheinn ró-bhuartha, beidh an chultúr fós ann, fiú más gá go ndéanfaidh daltaí rogha é a choinneáil beo. Táim dóchasach go ndéanfaidh daoine an cinneadh cheart.

SeanW

Well Enda Kenny's has promised to make Irish non-mandatory for Leaving Cert students. He's got all the TNaG people, Irish Language Summer schools (who worry that their pointless services would be dispensable), and Trevor Sgt. (who teaches Irish at Balbriggan apparently) all up in arms.

Now this is gonna be very unpopular (here) and I'm prepared to take some flack for it but I've got to say it. As a person who thinks the Irish language is a pointless, archaic relic that we'd be 2x better off without, that it's a bloody waste of time, money, valuable student-teacher hours, and in some cases common sense (An Daingean anybody?) I think this is a bloody wonderful idea and I'm tempted to give Fine Gael all preferences in the next election just over this alone. I hear someone is planning a demonstration to FG offices to protest their policy and I'm half tempted to launch a counterdemonstration in their support.

By all means if someone wants to learn, speak, live through Gaeilge so be it. I support anyone's right to stand on ceremony if they want to. Just please stop with the "we have to keep it everywhere at any cost" madness.

p~b

i dont think it should mandatory after leaving cert, mainly because i knew i didnt need it for what i was gonna do after college and it didnt involve me using irish and i never had any interest in the language so i wasted my time doing it for leaving cert

segadreamcast

SeanW wrote:

Well Enda Kenny's has promised to make Irish non-mandatory for Leaving Cert students. He's got all the TNaG people, Irish Language Summer schools (who worry that their pointless services would be dispensable), and Trevor Sgt. (who teaches Irish at Balbriggan apparently) all up in arms.

Now this is gonna be very unpopular (here) and I'm prepared to take some flack for it but I've got to say it. As a person who thinks the Irish language is a pointless, archaic relic that we'd be 2x better off without, that it's a bloody waste of time, money, valuable student-teacher hours, and in some cases common sense (An Daingean anybody?) I think this is a bloody wonderful idea and I'm tempted to give Fine Gael all preferences in the next election just over this alone. I hear someone is planning a demonstration to FG offices to protest their policy and I'm half tempted to launch a counterdemonstration in their support.

By all means if someone wants to learn, speak, live through Gaeilge so be it. I support anyone's right to stand on ceremony if they want to. Just please stop with the "we have to keep it everywhere at any cost" madness.

If you do launch a counterdemonstration, I'll be more than happy to throw myself behind it. If you do ever go ahead with it, it's My Boards Name(i.e.NoelRock) @gmail.com.

That protest at FG offices already came and went from students, all the Irish language societies in third level had a protest march last week.

Gael

SeanW wrote:

Well Enda Kenny's has promised to make Irish non-mandatory for Leaving Cert students.

No he didn't. He may do so if he gets into power, but he only expressed a personal opinion at the party conference. It has not been passed as FG official policy.

SeanW

Gael wrote:

Is that all education is about?

YES! In my view, the purpose of education is to give skill and useful knowledge to the student. The whole point of going to school is to prepare you for college/work and life is it not? I believe it is. And forcing people to learn a ridiculous dead language just for the sake of it, doesn't serve anyones interests except those guardians of (their view of) our identity. Which is really crazy.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate the Gailge language, I just dislike it's imposition on the population and the string of crazy moves made by the goverment to support it. So that means if a patriotic young man (or woman) wants to learn their native historical language in secondary school, so be it and I'd support them 100%. Or if a private person or organisation wants to stand on ceremony and use more of the language themselves, that's fine too. Perhaps the GAA could gaelicify things. Perhaps Gerry Adams could put an Gaelige test for entry by volunteers into the IR ... oops they're out of business.

You get the idea. It's a big world out there and this is a free country. If someone wants to learn, speak and use the Irish language, so be it.

We've come so far since the politicans did a U-turn from Dev's vision of comely maidens dancing at the crossroads, of defining "self sufficiency" as not importing anything from those evil brits, and when the Church ruled with an Iron fist - with all the resulting problems. Think how far Ireland has come since then.

Now imagine we finished the job and made Irish an elective subject in secondary school, included in a "pick one" list inclduing more sciences, foreign languages, technology, engineering or anything else that has a use in todays society. Think how much further we could reach if our young people could get 1/7th more out of their secondary schooling without any/much more school hours or government funding. That education focused on modern reality instead of historical fancy.

Also, can anyone show me an example of a soveirgn European state that maintains official multilingualism just for the sake of it? Some countries have official multilingualism, such as Switzerland (German and French) and Belgium (French and Dutch). But this is out of sheer necessity. North America? Does Americans feel "less American" because they speak English only? Is there ANY paralell for what we're doing? I doubt it.

robindch

> I hear someone is planning a demonstration to FG offices
> to protest their policy and I'm half tempted to launch a
> counterdemonstration in their support.

Include me in in this.

I work in Dawson Street and during the "lets make Irish a European Language" (aka, jobs for the boys) scrap last year, squads of paddy-nationalists used to turn up to demonstrate outside the EU offices on the corner with Molesworth street, just opposite my office window.

When one of these feeble pillocks arrived with a bunch of pre-teens and got them to start shouting "Tir gan teanga is tir gan anam" -- a country without a lanugage is a country without a soul -- well, that bugged me.

Whatever about personality-free adults who decide that a language is just the thing to give them something called "an identity", well, you can't go brainwashing kids, so I went downstairs and had a word with him. Not that it did any good of course, being outnumbered thirty to one and all of *them* yelling. And so I went back to work and the whining and arrant chest-thumping continued.

Who knows, maybe it'll be mandatory red hair + freckles next time, or prosthetic shillelaghs, unionized GAA and an inflatable De Valera for everyone's bedroom.

<grunt>

Grudaire

Because you're not in anyway offensive.... Can we at least try to have a discussion without steriotyping all of us..... yourself included.

Interesting that you mention north americans... they are after all quite confused, I lost some amount of resect for vast quantitys of the population amid claims that jesus popped over to america fo a while.... before columbus landed, half of the legally VOTING population voted George W, and a few other small things like that, Rather ironicly there are also many irish speaking groups over there, so it's not all bad.
Just as we go to different sports, music, and restaurants can we not just get along? Agus Is tír gan ainm tír gan teanga

Where did all of this pure raw hatred come from, rivaled only by the UDA-UVF-PIRA-RIRA-etc love circle.

robindch

> Just as we go to different sports, music, and restaurants can
> we not just get along?

Absolutely -- leave the good folks who want to learn Irish in their own time, learn Irish! I don't force other people's kids to learn any of the useful languages I've learned, so why should other people think they've the right to force my kids to learn Irish?

Anyhow, what's the point of spending years getting kids to learn a language which doesn't expand the number of people they're able to talk to? Isn't that what a language is supposed to be for?

Dyr

charter tbh

2. If you don't like the Irish language, and you want to tell the world that, - you're in the wrong place, frankly. We've all heard the pointless arguments about how Irish is "out of place in modern society", "a dead language", "useless", etc. Those arguments are old, and frankly unwelcome here. Such threads or posts will be swiftly squished and binned on this forum.

simu

Hmmm.... that charter needs an update. Continue the discussion!

SeanW

I work in Dawson Street and during the "lets make Irish a European Language" (aka, jobs for the boys) scrap last year, squads of paddy-nationalists used to turn up to demonstrate outside the EU offices on the corner with Molesworth street, just opposite my office window.

When one of these feeble pillocks arrived with a bunch of pre-teens and got them to start shouting "Tir gan teanga is tir gan anam" -- a country without a lanugage is a country without a soul -- well, that bugged me.

>_< That must have been awful. And yeah, Irish as a working European language. Some band of chancers including Eamon "An Daingean" O'Cuiv obviously decided the EU isn't enough of a joke so they figured they'd find a way to spend umpteen gazillion Eurotaxpayers €€€s translating a packet of documents into a pointless language only for said documents to never be read by anyone.

Interesting that you mention north americans... they are after all quite confused, I lost some amount of resect for vast quantitys of the population amid claims that jesus popped over to america fo a while.... before columbus landed, half of the legally VOTING population voted George W, and a few other small things

Say what you will about the Americans, one thing they don't have is an identity crises. At least nothing that pointless language as a rallying point for an "identity" would solve. Also please define these "claims" about jesus having 'popped over'?

Where did all of this pure raw hatred come from, rivaled only by the UDA-UVF-PIRA-RIRA-etc love circle.

I don't 'hate' Gaeilge the language, I just hate all the ramming it down one's throat. And the amount of money, student teacher hours and common sense that all gets thrown down the toilet by people who are determined to ... do what exactly? Today, Dingle, tomorrow, THE WORLD? :mad:

Re: the charter, obviously people coming to bash the language or it's proponents must be a MAJOR problem here, for such views to be dealt with in such a harsh manner.

JustCoz

Just because there's no parallel for what we're doing doesn't make it wrong. And no, Americans probably don't feel any less American for not having their own language but that's because they don't know any better. How can you miss something you've never had??

Everyone has subjects in school they don't like, I hated Maths but you just have to get over it. The way that everyone goes on about "the imposition of the language on them" is so funny! You'd swear we were all chained to our seats and Irish was physically beaten into us! And it's not a dead language, you could say that of the Welsh language maybe because they don't learn it in school and nobody speaks it anymore. You can't say Irish is a dead language, go to Kerry, Conamra, parts of Mayo, Donegal and you'll see how alive it is. I was born in Dublin and both my parents are from Dublin but I still find opportunities chun Gaeilge a labhairt.

People haven't been struggling through the generations to keep the language alive just to see people turn their back on it.

Anyhow, what's the point of spending years getting kids to learn a language which doesn't expand the number of people they're able to talk to? Isn't that what a language is supposed to be for?

Says who? You learn a language because you like the language. I worked with a Canadian in Toronto over the summer who was learning Irish in college for fun. He knew he mightn't get an abundance of opportunites to speak it having never been to Ireland, but he did it because he enjoyed it.

I know so many young people who love the language and think that Enda Kenny's proposal is ridiculous. But at the end of the day, thats all it was, a proposal, and I can't see it ever coming into force. There's too many people who will fight for the cause. Myself included.

segadreamcast

JustCoz wrote:

People haven't been struggling through the generations to keep the language alive just to see people turn their back on it.

Ah the historical argument. Times change, people change, get with the programme. Remember, people used to find Hitler an acceptable person... just because someone used to do something, doesn't mean we should do it now.

Says who? You learn a language because you like the language.

Exactly! The majority of students (in a poll taken in the North East Secondary Schools) indicated that 58% of students would rather the language was OPTIONAL. People DON'T like the language. The people who do like it CAN learn it - we're talking about the people you don't, hence "optional" and not "banned".

I worked with a Canadian in Toronto over the summer who was learning Irish in college for fun. He knew he mightn't get an abundance of opportunites to speak it having never been to Ireland, but he did it because he enjoyed it.

And didn't have it rammed down his throat. Another argument in favour of optional...

I know so many young people who love the language

And I am a young person, and I detest it. Thankfully, I also know that the majority is on my side.

and think that Enda Kenny's proposal is ridiculous. But at the end of the day, thats all it was, a proposal, and I can't see it ever coming into force. There's too many people who will fight for the cause. Myself included.

Oh it will. Maybe not in this election, maybe not this decade - but the language is on the way out the door - in secondary schools at least.

Diorraing

NoelRock wrote:

And I am a young person, and I detest it. Thankfully, I also know that the majority is on my side.

Tá sé íontach go bhfuil tú in ann aigne gach páiste sa tír a léamh agus cinneadha dheanamh ar a son

Peanut

JustCoz wrote:

Everyone has subjects in school they don't like, I hated Maths but you just have to get over it. The way that everyone goes on about "the imposition of the language on them" is so funny! You'd swear we were all chained to our seats and Irish was physically beaten into us!

eh say what? We are/were effectively chained to our seats - it's not optional if you want to go and spend your time studying something else.

re: "you just have to get over it", well if that's the way you feel then fine, but it's not a particularly good attitude to have IMHO, no disrespect.

NoelRock wrote:

"...people used to find Hitler an acceptable person..."

uh I think the fuhrer is abstaining from this discussion, he has more pressing matters to engage in

Diorraing wrote:

Tá sé íontach go bhfuil tú in ann aigne gach páiste sa tír a léamh agus cinneadha dheanamh ar a son

I and I'm sure a lot of others are merely going by their own experience in school - I am quite certain that compulsory Irish was not just a problem for me specifically, but a lot of my peers at the time. Someone mentioned that it would account for 1/7th of study time, however I would say it's more like 1/3rd due to the cognitive dissonance (not to mention stress) in trying to do something that you don't want to do, and have no interest in.

Sleepy

Compulsory Drivers Education.
Compulsory Sex Education.
Compulsory Civic Responsibility Education.
Compulsory Logic Education.
Compulsory I.T. Education.
Compulsory Health & Fitness Education.
Compulsory Philosophical Education.

If any of ye Gaelgoirs can provide me with a single coherant, logical and sensible reason as to why compulsory Irish language education is more important than any of the above forms of education, I'll listen to your point.

Until then, frankly, you can shove your biggoted views where the sun doesn't shine. The seven failings of the Irish education system I've pointed out above are all areas of education which would benefit both the individual student and society at large.

The only one's profiting from compulsory Irish are those with an educational disposition towards languages (in the CAO system), those that are employed in TG4 and RNAG (through having jobs the private sector could never support), those that are arrogant enough to believe their love of something makes it important to all of mankind (or in this case a population), those who's parents were backward enough to bring them up using the historical language of this country (through a virtually guaranteed 100 points in the CAO), etc. Frankly, this amounts to discrimination imho.

Sure, there's an argument to be made for the historical and cultural importance of Irish in this country. Very few intelligent people deny that. The fact is, it's a bloody weak one compared to the argument that compulsory drivers education would save Irish lives if it replaced the Irish language on the LC sylabus.

simu

Sleepy wrote:

those who's parents were backward enough to bring them up using the historical language of this country

No need to be insulting. Calm down.

simu

Sleepy wrote:

If any of ye Gaelgoirs can provide me with a single coherant, logical and sensible reason as to why compulsory Irish language education is more important than any of the above forms of education, I'll listen to your point.

Most people who support teaching Irish in schools aren't saying it's more or less important than the subjects you listed so I don't see the relevance.

The only one's profiting from compulsory Irish are those with an educational disposition towards languages (in the CAO system), those that are employed in TG4 and RNAG (through having jobs the private sector could never support),

Anyone working in such jobs would be also be capable of holding down a similar job in the private sector, the teachers could teach other subjects and so on. Compulsary Irish isn't making a financial profit for people.

those that are arrogant enough to believe their love of something makes it important to all of mankind (or in this case a population),

I think they just want kids to have a chance to learn Irish and that it might be an enriching experience and the same could be said for some of the subjects you proposed (not that I necessarily am against them).

those who's parents were backward enough to bring them up using the historical language of this country (through a virtually guaranteed 100 points in the CAO), etc.

It's not easy bringing up a child in a minority language but people feel it's important to pass on their heritage to their kids. Nowadays, it's a choice to raise your kids through Irish and I really don't see what's "backward" about it. Your point about CAO points is untrue. The extra points only come into play for people who get low grades.

Sure, there's an argument to be made for the historical and cultural importance of Irish in this country. Very few intelligent people deny that. The fact is, it's a bloody weak one compared to the argument that compulsory drivers education would save Irish lives if it replaced the Irish language on the LC sylabus.

Well, we have to teach kids something in school and have ways of selecting people and grading them. Some of what they learn will be utilitarian, some won't. What's so bad if Irish is one of the non-utilitarian subjects? There's room for driving classes and so on - that's what Transition year is for and I believe some schools have even introduced driving classes as part of a pilot scheme.

segadreamcast

Diorraing wrote:

Tá sé íontach go bhfuil tú in ann aigne gach páiste sa tír a léamh agus cinneadha dheanamh ar a son

Not a clue what you're saying my man!

SeanW

EVERYTHING a student does in secondary school is supposed to be utilitarian. In so far as it serves the interests of the students and/or in some clear and identifiable way benefits society.

English: Our primary language, training in this helps the student communicate, teaches spelling and grammer so that a person may be percieved as being intellegent, helps the person write letters, reports etc so that they may be taken seriously in any advanced endevours they engage in.

Mathematics: Obviously the students needs to know how to add, subtract, mutliply divide etc, more advanced mathematics such as what is found in the leaving cert is required for some scientific and research efforts. It serves an exremely valuable purpose.

History: Helps the young person to understand where we come from and how we as a people got to where we are today. If nothing else it teaches us ALL the mistakes of the past so that we as a society may NEVER repeat them, such as blaming one race universally for all of society's problems (happened in Germany, lead to WWII), or all the other mistakes of the past that have caused us grief. The benefit for both society and the individual is clear.

Construction studies: With a lot of activity in the building trade a and a lot of students going into apprenticeships & building jobs, this gives practical-focus students a leg-up into their chosen fields.

Foregin languages: Should be obvious, for the young people who consider their horizons unlimited, and the world their oyster, another langauge should obviosuly be very helpful in that persons travel to such countries, or for working abroad or for people/companies of those countries (heading a subsidiary and reporting to head office. However, decisions to take a foreign language is impaired by the fact that any such elective will be a third language. How many of us actually speak a foreign language? Hmmm, ...

Gaeilge: Keeps the muppets happy but does absolutely nothing else, save for creating resentment among the majority.

Now I could go on about how IT training would prepare students for college and life, how drivers ed could save lives, sex ed reduce the spread of STDs and unplanned pregnancies, the benefits of civics and physical education and the other subjets but it isn't worth it.

The bottom line is that everything a student learns has an explicit, clear and defineable benefit, EXCEPT Gaeilge.

Another important matter is student-teacher hours. They cost both taxpayer money and student time, and as such should not be wasted. Interesting you talk about a transition year as a place to put extra stuff, rather than optionalising some more superflous subjects. Many schools, you realise, do not have a transition year.

Just because there's no parallel for what we're doing doesn't make it wrong.

No but it's a damn strong indication.

JustCoz

Not a clue what you're saying my man!

Maybe those Irish classes would have come in handy after all....

JustCoz

re: "you just have to get over it", well if that's the way you feel then fine, but it's not a particularly good attitude to have IMHO, no disrespect

All I meant was that I accepted the fact that i had to do the subject so i made an effort with it, which is a good attitude to have imo. Many students don't like the fact that they have to do Irish, but the fact that they have to means that many of them will make an effort and be the better for it.

We all have to do things we don't want to do, and its usually only when you look back over time that you appreciate it. Thats all I'm saying.

Vorsprung

Interesting chat here.The following is a suggestion that I made during a similar on the UCDSU boards last year.

I think Irish should be split into 2 subjects - Irish language and Irish "culture" for want of a better word. I'd make the language compulsory and the culture optional.

I think one of the big reasons Irish is hated so much is that unlike other languages, there's all this extra **** in the form of poetry, stories etc. that really has nothing to do with the language per se. I don't have the time to go through the other arguments, but I know that there are certain people within the Dept of Ed that are hellbent on keeping the culture aspecct in its current, unteachable form. I'm told this goes against the thinking amongst teachers all over the country.

PS apologies if i've repeated comments made by others, didn't read all of the posts

Ron DMC

bigjimthefirst wrote:

I think Irish should be split into 2 subjects - Irish language and Irish "culture" for want of a better word. I'd make the language compulsory and the culture optional.

Definately an option worth exploring, should never be done away with completely.

Peanut

JustCoz wrote:

... Many students don't like the fact that they have to do Irish, but the fact that they have to means that many of them will make an effort and be the better for it.

Well we're not going to agree here - I would also say that many of them will have to make an effort and be the worse for it.

JustCoz wrote:

We all have to do things we don't want to do, and its usually only when you look back over time that you appreciate it. Thats all I'm saying.

Sorry JustCoz, but that is a generalisation to the point of nothingness!

You could say that about anything you are compelled to do, the question is whether it's legitimate to do so in the case of this specific language & situation.
The arguments for & against have already been posted.

ishmael whale

simu wrote:

Anyone working in such jobs would be also be capable of holding down a similar job in the private sector, the teachers could teach other subjects and so on. Compulsary Irish isn't making a financial profit for people.

Bear in mind some people have actually said on these boards that they support EU status on grounds that it makes jobs for Irish speakers. I'm not saying you share this view, but there seem to be some Irish language activists who do see things like the Official Languages Act, TG4 and presumably compulsory Irish teaching as ensuring a job market specifically for people with Irish language skills that would not, in fairness, exist unless the Government created it.

simu wrote:

What's so bad if Irish is one of the non-utilitarian subjects?

I’ve been reflecting on this to attempt to put this point as well as I can, and trying to build in things that people in this thread and elsewhere have been saying.

Bear in mind the key issue is the element of compulsion. If a person does not want to take Irish for the Leaving Cert, how would you explain to them that they have to ? “What about English and Maths” is not an answer. Clearly dropping English and Maths would severely limit someone's post Leaving options. But, firstly, the Department of Education website suggests that, in fact, Irish is the only absolutely compulsory subject for Leaving Cert

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/senior_cycle_options.pdf?language=EN The majority of senior cycle students take the established Leaving Certificate. Achievement in the Leaving Certificate examination is the basis upon which places in third level institutions are allocated. …. Students taking the established Leaving Certificate programme must take at least five subjects, of which one must be Irish.

so it seems to have a special official status over and above all other subjects. Secondly because “What about English and Maths” isn’t really a reason for studying Irish anymore than “What about English and Irish” would be a reason to compel people to study Maths.

If you said to this student, ‘Studying a language is good for you’ and he responded ‘I agree, but my choice is to study French’, then presumably you’d have to present another reason.

If you said ‘Irish opens up a whole block of literature to you’ and he responded ‘French has the added benefit of opening the literature of a whole new country to me, whereas Irish makes me feel closed in” then presumably you’d have to accept that this student just had a different view of the language to people with a love for it, and present another reason.

If you said ‘Irish is your national language, without it you are culturally deficient’ and he replied ‘My family haven’t spoken Irish for at least three generations and possibly more. I reject your implication that my grandparents were in some way deficient or less than full members of the Irish nation’ it seems to me the argument for compulsory Irish runs out of steam. Unless you are happy with a final diktat of ‘I don’t care about your view of what it is to be Irish, I’m going to force my view that the language is vital on you and the Department of Education will back me up.’

Remember also that the compulsion is a significant cause of the hostility that many Irish people have towards the language. Remove the compulsion, and a proper engagement towards the language becomes possible.

Dave!

SeanW wrote:

YES! In my view, the purpose of education is to give skill and useful knowledge to the student. The whole point of going to school is to prepare you for college/work and life is it not? I believe it is.

.......


EVERYTHING a student does in secondary school is supposed to be utilitarian. In so far as it serves the interests of the students and/or in some clear and identifiable way benefits society.

Bloody hell, we're just cogs in the wheel as far as you're concerned! I'd hate if you were Taoiseach, we'd be all walking in a circle, pushing a wheel, grinding wheat grains to dust! School should not be able making you into an effective worker or allowing you to pick an appropriate spot on a river to build a dam, it should be for expanding your mind, letting you understand the world, and studying subjects that you're interested in.

Peanut wrote:

I'm sure Ógra Fianna Fáil and Labour Youth don't want it, but ask the majority of secondary students about it and I will bet that you will get a polar opposite opinion. But apparently they don't count - they're just the ones being pushed around in this.

Ask the majority of secondary students and I'll bet they'd be quite eager to have 5 hour lunch breaks, compulsary TV class, and optional attendance; ask the majority of >30 year olds and I'll bet they'd wish they were taught Irish properly so that they could be fluent.

My opinion on the subject, and I've given it many times before: it should remain mandatory, but the course should be completely turned around. More oral work, less or no poetry and stories, basic grammar so that the students understand the structure of the language (this will help with their oral and writing obviously). It's extraordinary that most people come out of secondary school unable to string a sentence together as Gaeilge; and that includes me, I'm still fairly young, and I wish my parents had sent me to an Irish school.

FG won't be getting my vote in the next election, by the way.

And also,

SeanW wrote:

Perhaps Gerry Adams could put an Gaelige test for entry by volunteers into the IR ... oops they're out of business.

Way to go, taunting the group because they've disarmed, that'll be sure to benefit the peace process...

SeanW

Bloody hell, we're just cogs in the wheel as far as you're concerned!

Quite the opposite in fact. I believe that we are all unique individuals with hopes and dreams that must be respected. Whether it's to see the world, make one's first million by our 21st birthday, move into a particular career, education should be on hand to feed and develop this ambition that many have. This the 21st century and our young people's horizons (myself included) are wider than ever and I know beyond doubt that compulsory Irish is a relic that's holding us back.

School should not be able making you into an effective worker or allowing you to pick an appropriate spot on a river to build a dam

Not exclusively, but the whole point of education is to serve the individual student and - where there is a clear, definable and irrefutable reason - society as a whole. That means primarily teaching skills that will make them be taken seriously in any jobs or undertakings they might make. Travel far and wide, see the world, grab a high paid job, set up your own business - the world is your oyster if you got a good education focused around your modern needs rather than historical fantasy. And yes, if you want a high quality training in your native historical language, so be that too.

and studying subjects that you're interested in

EXACTLY. I COULDNT AGREE MORE. The only problem is what happens when the student isn't "interested in" COMPULSORY Gaeilge?

I'm still fairly young, and I wish my parents had sent me to an Irish school.

I'm still fairly young too, and I had opportunities to take German in secondary school and college. I now heavily regret not doing so, and wish I had a lot of things to do over again. But you don't see me looking to make German compulsory in 2nd level. We all have regrets, but we get on with it, because what the hell else can we do?

Way to go, taunting the group because they've disarmed, that'll be sure to benefit the peace process...

I honestly doubt they give a toss about talk on a internet message board, but I could be wrong.

Grudaire

SeanW wrote:

Also please define these "claims" about jesus having 'popped over'?

Admittadly not widespead the religiousgroup/cult of the mormons do believe this....
Hmmm I think you should really look at cultures before removing your own- Don't say other people will keep it up, they probably will, but it is sad to claim to be part of a culture you resent.
why is english and math compulsary?
You obviously know english anyway.
When are you going to use triginometric equations?
Your irish does however need help.

SeanW

Admittadly not widespead

I didn't think so.

Hmmm I think you should really look at cultures

Let's look at countries. Can you name ANY nation on Earth (except Ireland) that maintains official multilingualism purely for the sake of it?

why is english and math compulsary?

You need to be taught a primary language, so that you can read, write and so on, as well as understand complexities of spelling and correct grammer. I don't think it's essential that leaving cert students learn early 20th century poetry or "Playboy of the Western World" but removing it from the syllabus would accomplish nothing.

Mathematics are critical for scientific and technical endeavours, financial services work, day trading, accountancy, general business and a wide variety of professions, maths also have use in daily life.

Everything we learn in school has a clear, definable logic associated with it. Except compulsory Irish.

I would like to put to "compulsory Irish" proponents on this board a hypothetical situation if I may:

Taking into account the points that have been raised on this board from IW and others, about the teaching of Irish, assuming for example that the reccommendations were implemented to the syllabus, so as to make the subject a more interesting and enjoyable subject in so far as possible. Now we assume that this new Gaeilge course is made an elective subject, a "pick one" list that includes technological courses, sciences, foreign languages or drivers ed. etc. Assume also that the Irish-language zealots in government did NOT mangle all the non-Gaeilge elective syllabi to make them useless, which would be a real possibility.

Question: Do you think that respectable number of young people would - of their own free will - choose the revamped Irish language courses over the other electives?

If the answer is yes: you have no need to fear Irish being made optional.
If the answer is no: then it proves that the Irish language is no longer part of our national identity.

Either way, your arguments hold no water whatsoever. Like emigration, the farming-only economy, 'industrial' schools, leprechauns, Eamon DeVelera, and backlit religious pictures in everyone's houses, some things belong in the past. Compulsory Gaeilge is one of them.

That's not to say that the Irish language should be sent to the dustbin completely, by all means if someone wants to learn it then so be it. Would you be happy to replace compulsory Gaeilge in secondary school with revamped elective Gaeilge courses in secondary school, and free, government funded Irish language courses for adults? Or must we blindly continue with the status quo, regardless of how stupid and self defeating it is?

ishmael whale

Cliste wrote:

why is english and math compulsary?

Just to be clear, one of the discoveries I’ve made in the course of this debate is that Irish is actually the only compulsory subject at the moment. English and Maths are not compulsory – although clearly if a student didn’t take them this would impose heavy practical limits on what third level courses they might pursue.

Irish has a unique official status in the education system, and there seems to be no compelling reason for this. The idea that people who don’t want to study it should have it forced on them because others think it should be a vital part of their culture hardly holds water.

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/senior_cycle_options.pdf?language=EN The majority of senior cycle students take the established Leaving Certificate. Achievement in the Leaving Certificate examination is the basis upon which places in third level institutions are allocated. …. Students taking the established Leaving Certificate programme must take at least five subjects, of which one must be Irish.

SeanW wrote:

must we blindly continue with the status quo, regardless of how stupid and self defeating it is?

I think this is the crux of the matter.

GaryOR

65% den aos óg i bhfábhar na
Gaeilge mar
ábhar riachtanach


http://www.foinse.ie/leighSceal.asp?sId=2351

segadreamcast

A poll carried out by Foinse is obviously gonna come out with skewed results. Need I say duh?

Entirely unsure as to why none of the papers have carried out their own survey on this issue... needless to say, a poll carried out in the North East Dublin area did come out with similar numbers of young people against compulsory Irish (albeit, the poll was smaller - 300 students). Nevertheless, both results contrast greatly...

Grudaire

SeanW wrote:

I didn't think so.
You need to be taught a primary language, so that you can read, write and so on, as well as understand complexities of spelling and correct grammer.

Everything we learn in school has a clear, definable logic associated with it. Except compulsory Irish.

Question: Do you think that respectable number of young people would - of their own free will - choose the revamped Irish language courses over the other electives?

Either way, your arguments hold no water whatsoever.

And irish can be a primary language..... if people want. you may notice that my spelling has not improved since primary school, this my so-called primary language. Agus nílim ró mhaith ag an gaeilge ach an oiread

I cannot see the logic behind things that we are currently studying. The one plausable explination was to test learning ablilty, logic- if you are better at languages or math, or business etc. Irish is a viable way of investigating the ability of learning capabilitys, and for some how they deal with what they find repulsive.

I do believe many people will take it up Irish, and after a particuarially good discussion that did not desent into riddiculing arguments with opinion. Irish could actually be strengthened. not a whole lot, but it would only be the interested involved...

And I do believe that 65% at least would keep irish.
And again please don't ridicule surveys without any contrary evidence. Tá sé amadach agus is leisciúl atá sibh uile.... An Gaeilge Abú

segadreamcast

NoelRock wrote:

a poll carried out in the North East Dublin area did come out with similar numbers of young people against compulsory Irish (albeit, the poll was smaller - 300 students). Nevertheless, both results contrast greatly...

= contrary evidence Cliste. Very interested to see if the Irish Times et all will comission a survey of their own on this issue - hopefully Enda Kenny keeps pushing it - he has, what, 70+% of the over 35's on this? And they're the ones who vote... g'wan the Enda...

SeanW

Sleepy wrote:

If any of ye Gaelgoirs can provide me with a single coherant, logical and sensible reason as to why compulsory Irish language education is more important than any of the above forms of education, I'll listen to your point.

Cliste wrote:

Irish is a viable way of investigating ... how they deal with what they find repulsive.

Cliste wrote:

And I do believe that 65% at least would keep irish.

Then they would have no trouble choosing it as an elective?

Cliste wrote:

you may notice that my spelling has not improved since primary school, this my so-called primary language.

No offense intended, but it's patently obvious.

Perhaps you were failed by our backwater "education" system? I know I was. I know this because I was in the Irish education system most of my young life, but in an American system for 3 1/2 years.

And the difference is like night and day. Whatever Irish I had leaving Primary school, I forgot the lot within a few months. I also left the wonderful Irish education system after 6th Class in primary school horribly deficient in Irish history, having been taught nothing about post 1916 era in History classes, including the fact that we'd had a Civil War over a treaty. Which was news to me when I finally learned about it 2 years later.

Straight in to the system (in Connecticut, a Democrat "blue" state) and it was like arising from a boghole into another realm. Say what you will about the Americans (and you have already) but where properly resourced the US education system is lightyears ahead of ours. Bye bye Religion classes, pointless and unlearnable poems in dead languages. HELLO to my choice of a whole bunch of mind widening subjects, from electrical engineering courses to foreign languages, Information Technology just to name a few. Not to mention core subjects that were far more practical and relevant.

Fast forward, and my return to Ireland, to find a country having moved on in the past 4 years and grown in leaps and bounds, only to find the education system is still a paralytic, backward hole that focuses more on Church teachings and deranged, DeVelera-esque fantasies than students needs. I considered my school to be relatively good but it just couldn't compare to where I had just been. A whole bunch of subjects I had found engaging and useful before were no longer available. I got an exemption from Irish classes given my absence, and the school had the good sense to give the Religion classes the respect and attention they deserved - none.

But my story has a happy ending: I got into college studying my chosen field (which I discovered thanks to my US education) only to find that some of the complex technical matter in that course was stuff I had studied in US school many years earlier.

The education system here needs a major overhaul, hangovers from the past are holding our young people back. Simple as that. If you want to disappear down a boghole in Conemarra, that's fine by me, but please don't try to take an entire generation down with you. Three cheers to Enda Kenny for having the sense to realise that the system is in bits and Compulsory Irish achieves absolutely nothing.

You and your pals can accuse me of being a closed-minded slavedriver and hating our culture and take cheap shots at the Americans all you like, realities don't change, and many of my arguments remain uncontested.

segadreamcast

SECTION: Ireland; Other Stories; Pg. 6

LENGTH: 276 words

HEADLINE: 62% believe Irish should not be compulsory

BYLINE: Mark Brennock, Chief Political Correspondent

BODY:
Almost two-thirds of voters believe Irish should no longer be a compulsory subject for the Leaving Certificate examination, according to a TNS mrbi survey conducted for Fine Gael.

Some 62 per cent believe it should become a subject of choice after the Junior Certificate, 34 per cent that it should remain compulsory and 4 per cent have no opinion. The proportion favouring the retention of compulsory status is highest among the 18 to 24 age group (52 per cent), followed by the 25 to 34 group (37 per cent). It falls to 30 per cent among those aged 35 to 54, 25 per cent in the 55 to 64 age group and 30 per cent among the over 65s.

The poll also shows more men than women favour the ending of compulsory status. Among men, 68 per cent believe it should be a subject of choice, 28 per cent that it should remain compulsory and 4 per cent have no opinion. Among women, 57 per cent believe it should be a subject of choice, 40 per cent that it should remain compulsory and 3 per cent have no opinion.

The telephone poll was conducted between November 15th and 24th, among 962 interviewees. It was taken immediately after Fine Gael proposed in a policy document that compulsory Irish be dropped from the Leaving Cert.

Responding to the poll, Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny said it "confirms my instincts in relation to public attitudes to the teaching and presentation of the Irish language in our schools". He called for a national audit to assess the level of usage of Irish, public attitudes to the language, and the potential for the language to develop.

He said Fine Gael would organise a conference next March to examine these issues.

LOAD-DATE: December 1, 2005

Now that's more like it. Albeit, by my own admission it's from an equally untrustable source with an equally vested interest. We need an objective survey - come on Independent/Times, do it!

SeanW

Seems I'm not the only one who thinks IndaKenny's been talking a lot of sense recently.

Polls find increase in FG support

04 December 2005 08:10
Fine Gael is continuing to gain support according to two opinion polls carried out for Sunday newspapers today.

One survey, conducted for the Sunday Tribune, finds support for Fianna Fáil has dropped by 4%.

The other, in the Sunday Business Post, shows a modest increase in those backing the party.

Advertisement


The Business-Post poll also says that Fianna Fáil leader Bertie Ahern is the most popular party leader with a 51% satisfaction rating.

There is little or no change in support for other parties.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1204/politics.html

So much for all the people who think FG are crazy traitors for wanting to dump Compulsory Gaeilge.

Grudaire

Well NoelRock thank you for some useful information. I can safely say that we will never know the wish of the mass's.

SeanW I do believe that it is your own fault that you where ignorant to the knowladge. perhaps trying reading yourself would help. Having read into many different topics on this boring irish history that you talk about it does get quite complicated. not just save our queen and tiocfaidh ar lá. However it is amazing that while you found the american system better while the irish system is rated higher, perhaps the system is not for all. I do find it scary that the system that you so praise is introducing creationism to the science classes. fiction is not fact i'm sure you agree.

Perhaps these poems are more then about learning, do you not find the insight facinating. everyone hated everyone. Everyone dies, and it's miserable. perhaps you don't care about your ancesters, but i do. and please clarify what the hell that second quote you have there means

ishmael whale

Cliste wrote:

perhaps you don't care about your ancesters, but i do.

I think the point is what justifies compulsory Irish. If you are interested in Irish, fine. If its an important part of your life, grand. But why should it be imposed on people who don't particularly value it?

GaryOR

I think the point has being lost actually, Enda announced that this policy/idea/proposal was supposed to improve Irish amoung the Irish in Ireland, and now the whole thing is just polarized into pro-Irish and anti-Irish.
Making Irish optional would probably be a good idea at a later stage, after teaching reforms are put in place and understanding and appreciation are improved.
Making Irish optional at this stage is like looking at the "problem" from the wrong end!!
From what I can see those who want to make Irish optional, want to, not out of wanting to progress Irish but in a sense get the boot in for all those "wasted hours" spent on it.
As Irish stands now making it optional would be a no brainer as they say and no body in their right mind would take it, and thats down to the way in which its taught not the language itself.
If Enda actually had layed out a comprehensive plan for its improvement (including it eventually becoming optional, after Junior Cert) over X ammount of years, instead of repeating old FG policy about its status, I think he might have swayed a few positive votes, and not just the "Myers brigade" which he has by the bucket load now.....

SeanW

In the US, the education system is run and funded by city authorities. That leaves a lot of room for variance. Where I was it was very good. It's like that, some places very bad some places very good. I just got lucky and I accept that. BTW I was never taught creationism, and that largely only happens in relatively small areas of the South mainly.

BTW they don't teach religion in US public schools. Anywhere. They do here though.

My second post clarifies that there are NOT

Justcoz wrote:

too many people who will fight for the cause. Myself included.

If there were, FG would not be gaining support. Perhaps the rise is in suport is down to other issues but if the Irish langauge and compulsory language had such a revered place in society, Enda Kenny's remarks would have been a major impediment. That it has not, in my view, speaks volumes.

perhaps you don't care about your ancesters, but i do.

>_< So we're back to the historical arguments again? So Irish was our language a few hundred years ago. Big fat hairy deal.

Most European languages descend from languages such as Latin and - further back - Sanskrit.
So why don't the French, Spanish, Swiss, have compulsory Sanskrit classes? Do they not care about their ancestors? Where are all the plastic patriots bemoaning the death of Latin?

If you're content that vauge references to 'our ancestors way way back' is adequate justification for the continuation of this, I have to dismiss that out of hand. I'd prefer the education system was modern, student focused (rather than "our ancestors were Irish-speaking devout Catholics") and built around the needs of young people in modern society than the menu of historical fantasies present today. We can look to the future, or live in the past. And if that future includes students choosing to learn Irish (which some would), so be it.

GaryOR wrote:

If Enda actually had layed out a comprehensive plan for its improvement

I have nothing whatsoever against keeping Irish language around in schools and improving the way it's taught. But that doesn't change the fact that there will be young people who'd rather learn a technology or do science experiments, drivers ed etc than Gaeilge.

ishmael whale

GaryOR wrote:

I think the point has being lost actually, Enda announced that this policy/idea/proposal was supposed to improve Irish amoung the Irish in Ireland, and now the whole thing is just polarized into pro-Irish and anti-Irish.

I don’t think you are correct to equate the position of supporters of compulsory Irish with people who support change. The Irish language teaching establishment has had generations to perfect its approach. However, compulsory Irish has insulated them from the need to engage with English speakers. If they manage to see off this threat, they go back to business as usual.

GaryOR wrote:

If Enda actually had layed out a comprehensive plan for its improvement (including it eventually becoming optional, after Junior Cert) over X ammount of years, instead of repeating old FG policy about its status, I think he might have swayed a few positive votes, and not just the "Myers brigade" which he has by the bucket load now.....

Agreed. Once the principle is conceded, there needs to be a proper phasing in. For example, if you are half way through your Leaving Cert course it would be plain disorientating to have the goalposts changed. But the objective of ending compulsion needs to be established.

GaryOR

"But the objective of ending compulsion needs to be established."

You talk about the compulsory side of it as the be all and end all, which it isn't, surely you would agree its introduction would only work after the results over many years taken from students from say baby infants through too leaving cert proved the "new teaching methods" actually provided them with fluency by the end of junior Cert (which it should).

Peanut

GaryOR wrote:

"But the objective of ending compulsion needs to be established."

You talk about the compulsory side of it as the be all and end all, which it isn't, surely you would agree its introduction would only work after the results over many years taken from students from say baby infants through too leaving cert proved the "new teaching methods" actually provided them with fluency by the end of junior Cert (which it should).

Should it?
Why should they be compelled to be fluent in it?
I have not seen even a single good reason to do this, and many reasons not to.
This is side-stepping the issue.

GaryOR

Peanut wrote:

Should it?
Why should they be compelled to be fluent in it?
I have not seen even a single good reason to do this, and many reasons not to.
This is side-stepping the issue.

Its the national language of this country, whatever your view on Irish, do you not think it would be ignorant of its people and its goverment to ignore its language. (By the way fluency in Irish isn't some sort of protest against English or those who hate Irish)
Fluency isn't some sort of magic place that cannot be reached its within all are reach, and as Irish men and women its are responsiility as a nation and a people to not just preserve but to promote that what makes us who we are.

i haven't seen any reasons against any potential personal benifits of fluency myself, i'm sure there are plenty, myself personally can't see anything negative with beng fluent in Irish.

I could be wrong but a "hate" of anything gives you a sort a tunnel view on the thing that you hate ,so the same goes for Irish, so any points made about its benfits as something to be proud of as a nation sadly falls on angry deaf ears