Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

Praetorian

I was good at Irish (according to my leaving cert result), but I never attained fluency. I agree with others that Irish and languages in general aren't taught efficiently in schools. I think it would be a great shame if Irish was a choice subject from the point of view that it would surely help the language die a slow painful death.

I'm absolutely shocked Kenny made such a statement without backing it up in some way shape or form. He's obviously just saying it for short term political gain.

I can understand why people would think it’s a good idea to make it a choice subject after the junior cert from the point of view that the students could then concentrate more on a subject that will help them converse with our European neighbours. Also, concentrating more on other subjects helps us keep our students more competitive in Europe and beyond.

I spent 10 years “learning” Irish and I can’t properly converse in the language. I’m not the only one. The teaching methods need to change or else there really is no point continuing on with the charade.

Overall I think it should be kept compulsory, but only if the teaching methods are revamped drastically.

GaryOR

Praetorian wrote:

I was good at Irish (according to my leaving cert result), but I never attained fluency. I agree with others that Irish and languages in general aren't taught efficiently in schools. I think it would be a great shame if Irish was a choice subject from the point of view that it would surely help the language die a slow painful death.

I'm absolutely shocked Kenny made such a statement without backing it up in some way shape or form. He's obviously just saying it for short term political gain.

I can understand why people would think it’s a good idea to make it a choice subject after the junior cert from the point of view that the students could then concentrate more on a subject that will help them converse with our European neighbours. Also, concentrating more on other subjects helps us keep our students more competitive in Europe and beyond.

I spent 10 years “learning” Irish and I can’t properly converse in the language. I’m not the only one. The teaching methods need to change or else there really is no point continuing on with the charade.

Overall I think it should be kept compulsory, but only if the teaching methods are revamped drastically.

Aontaím go hiomlán leat

GaryOR

The Irish language doesn't define us as a people.

Irish, without which there would be no Irish identity, has been spoken here for over 2,000 years and was the home language of the vast majority of our people until the mid-19th century. Marginalised under colonial rule, many Irish-speaking children had Irish beaten (or worse, ridiculed) out of them. Irish may once have been in retreat but that is a trend which we are now reversing.

Had the Poles abandoned Polish as their language following the partition of their country between Prussia, Russia and Austria, would Poland have reappeared on the map of Europe? Of course not. For a society, the loss of language is the loss of self.
Daithi Mac Carthaigh,

Praetorian

GaryOR wrote:

Aontaím go hiomlán leat

Go raibh míle maith agat.

ishmael whale

GaryOR wrote:

Irish, without which there would be no Irish identity, has been spoken here for over 2,000 years and was the home language of the vast majority of our people until the mid-19th century. .... Had the Poles abandoned Polish as their language following the partition of their country between Prussia, Russia and Austria, would Poland have reappeared on the map of Europe? Of course not.

If language is the ultimate determinate of nationhood, without which there would be no seperate identity, can you explain how Ireland managed to reappear on the map?

GaryOR

ishmael whale wrote:

If language is the ultimate determinate of nationhood, without which there would be no seperate identity, can you explain how Ireland managed to reappear on the map?

is this a serious question?...
Without having to go through history with you!! I assume you realise that the movement for an independant Ireland was based on the principle of a free nation with its own language...

Ishmael, Without Iish there would be no irish identity for you to claim to belong too..
you must work very hard at being patronizing, good man..

ishmael whale

GaryOR wrote:

I assume you realise that the movement for an independant Ireland was based on the principle of a free nation with its own language...

I’ve a feeling you don’t really want to acknowledge the gap in your logic, but I’ll try anyway.

You are saying, in the context of Poland, that retention of the language is what kept their national identity. Maybe that’s true. I don’t pretend to know enough to comment. Your implication seems to be that language is always, or at least very frequently, the key thing that defines identity and that this applies in Ireland.

However, you seem to acknowledge that Irish independence was actually achieved at a time when Irish had ceased to be our main language for a couple of generations. Gaelic revival was an important value of many of the leaders of the independence movement – but that suggests they saw national independence as something that would support revival, rather than the language supporting a concept of national identity.

The fact of the language revival falling largely falling on deaf ears, so to speak, right up to the present day suggests that language did not play a great role in mobilising the support of the Irish people behind the concept of national self determination. Maybe it did in Poland, I really don’t know. But it does seem like a pure irrelevance here.

Here's the 1916 Proclamation, which seems to have been published in English, without a word about a language whatsoever:
http://irelandsown.net/proclamation.html

Mars Bar

it should be optional. i prefer irish to french and plan to teach it with p.e. teaching in college and stuff. one problem, if i go to england and take my course there i won't be able to teach. it should be introduced like a multi-cultural language like french or german.i'd chose it any day.

m1ke

I myself have spoken not a word except Irish since the day I was born – and every sentence I’ve ever uttered has been on the subject of Irish. If we’re truly Irish, we must constantly discuss the question of the Irish. There is no use in having Irish, if we converse in it on non-Irish topics. He who speaks Irish but fails to discuss the language question is not truly Irish in his heart.

SeanW

I find this whole mindset about languages quite irrational.

The article GaryOR mentioned was interesting, the author more or less admitted all the problems with his approach despite some galling and ridiculous fallacies used to cover same.

Your friend seems to have admitted, despite his best efforts to skew the intformation, that sport is a MAJOR part of our identity. Language is not.

That the language is in such a weak place in society is not an irrelevant side issue - it's absolutely central. Deal with it. It has nothing to our identity because the question is too complex and its always changing. In the recent past, devout Catholic religiousness, extreme poverty, emmigration, hatred of the Brits, among other things were part of it. Some of it was justified or unavoidable, but it's ancient history now and no longer part of our identity. The Irish language ceased to be a major part of our identity - having ceased to be in widespread use - LONG before either you or I were born.

Things have changed since 1916, hell even the revolution had little to do with what you claim, as IW has proven. Next fallacy ...

Back to the issue of sports, how many countries have their own menu of national sports like the GAA games? How is it that "a nation without a soul" or "a people without an identity" can have traditional games that are going from strength to strength? How can a people who've deserted themselves as you claim, be so hugely successful both at home and abroad in a wide variety of areas, literary, musical, sporting, business, education? Your arguments make no sense.

What's more I don't believe for a second that the Irish language would die completely if made optional, I reckon about 10% of students would take it, those who view it as part of their personal identity and would be commensurate with reality, not the first phase of abolition.

Language is not the sole gatekeeper of identity, I've proven that re: America. Comparisons between Modern Ireland and historical Poles is are fallacious. We have so much to be proud of and such strong traditions and a firm national identity. You, and the dept. of ed. need to lighten up - and get real.

P.S. on the news tonight there's just been a warning from FAS that the population needs to upskill in a number of areas ... Secondary Education Review anyone?

SeanW

you must work very hard at being patronizing, good man..

Can I ask you something GaryOR? Do you live in this country at present?

ishmael whale

http://anghaeltacht.net/ctg/altveritas.htm
I found this article excellent. The author takes an unflinching look at Irish language policy, and does not try to hide behind old rhetoric and denial. I’d recommend it to anyone interested in the topic. A few quote that particularly struck me were:

On the education front concern was being expressed that the emphasis on Irish in primary schools and the use of Irish as a medium of instruction in English speaking areas was having a detrimental effect on the quality of education received by schoolchildren. This was acknowledged politically at the time but was seen as a necessary and acceptable price to pay. Naturally enough what initial enthusiasm existed for the language among the wider public turned to apathy, or even antagonism, when it began to emerge that the quality of children's education may have been suffering due to the emphasis on Irish.

…. the Irish-Ireland project became a disturbing retreat into a conservative type of cultural protectionism. …. In those years the Gaelic League seemed to attract to its ranks people who subscribed to this conservative ideology and at the same time succeeded in alienating a whole generation of post independence intellectuals, …. Their indifference at best or hostility at worst, allowed the language project to rot in its own contradictions.

The Irish language movement has not been good at seeking a strategic compromise. It still isn't. The 'all or nothing approach' generally results in nothing in the long run. In the seventies recruitment policy in the Civil Service went from position of Irish being compulsory for everybody to Irish being compulsory for nobody… having sufficient people on the staff who can offer a service to Irish speakers is now governed by the laws of probability rather than recruitment criteria.

Despite all the rhetoric about gaelicising the whole country and Irish being the first official language of the state, there were few opportunites available to the native Irish speaker from Conamara or from West Kerry or from North West Donegal, unless they could speak English with the fluency of a native English speaker.

Jobs were provided which allowed emigrants to come home and eventually turn the population decline around in most Gaeltacht areas, but not without cost to the language. “…. Frequently new plants were out of scale with the local availability of manpower and a proportion of the workforce had to be recruited from outside the Gaeltacht, or Gaeltacht emigrants were induced to return and brought with them English-speaking families. In any case higher and more specialist skills had of necessity to be sought elsewhere."

Whatever angle one looks at it, it has to be admitted that the Revival of the Irish Language has been a failure. The Preliminary Report of Census 2002 shows that out of a million adults who claim to be able to speak Irish only 73,000 (2.6% of the adult population) claim to use it on a daily basis, of which 21,000 live within the boundaries of the Gaeltacht.

It is too easy to blame the State for the failure of the revival. That the state was negligent, unimaginative, authoritarian, obstructive, piecemeal, hostile and downright stupid at times, is beyond question. Even if it had been the opposite of all those things, the revival would have failed because the people in English speaking communities did not want to revert to Irish. ….To change the language of Kilkerrin in East Galway to Irish would have done as much violence to that community's cultural life, as changing the language of Cill Chiaráin in Conamara from Irish to English.

When someone recognises these realities, they get my attention. So when the same writer says

Everybody in Ireland will be at a loss, if Irish is allowed to wither away. Those who will suffer the most loss are the indigenous people of the Gaeltacht, for whom Irish is more than a great national symbol.

I found myself, for about the first time ever, actually thinking about the language in a positive way as something actually deserving an amount of attention. I think the key point is the recognition of English as a valid language of Irish people. Once that cultural recognition is there, a proper basis for engagement with the agenda is possible.
Confronting realities, as the author of this article does, will do a lot more for the language than the dead hand of compulsion.

GaryOR

ok, I don't want to get into a agrument about irish in an irish nation and come across as some hard line republician (which I'm not) so I'm not going to go much further than this post. Also it moves away from the argument that making Irish optional will improve its status.

how can you rightly argue that the likes of Pearse, Mac Donnacha etc.. would ever want a Rep. without irish, you couldn't, so lets leave it there.

The quotes you put down Ishmael are all true facts, and I would never have imagined the Gaelic utopia that De Velera and the likes wanted.. and I don't see it as necessary for anything.
Also why do you see Irish as an attack on the English language? English is of course equally important I couldn't imagine someone seeing otherwise!! (No quotes please)

Can I ask you something GaryOR? Do you live in this country at present?

Yes I do. I put the word through a spell check, feckin yanky English Word document.

Back to the issue of sports, how many countries have their own menu of national sports like the GAA games? How is it that "a nation without a soul" or "a people without an identity" can have traditional games that are going from strength to strength? How can a people who've deserted themselves as you claim, be so hugely successful both at home and abroad in a wide variety of areas, literary, musical, sporting, business, education?

I never said we were a people without an identity you just keep putting up the arguement that Irish isn't part of Irish identity..
"deserted themselves" I never said that.

And what in gods name does anything you said have to do with irish in education???

You, and the dept. of ed. need to lighten up - and get real.

My god look at this little gem. "get real", I've only ever said from the start that the way its taught is BS.. I just don't agree in the making Irish optional until the way its taught is changed.

ishmael whale

GaryOR wrote:

Also why do you see Irish as an attack on the English language? English is of course equally important I couldn't imagine someone seeing otherwise!! (No quotes please)

There is nothing intrinsic about Irish that makes it an attack on the English language. But it is simply a fact that a concerted effort was made over a couple of generations to replace English with Irish, and compulsory Irish is a left over from those years. A new engagement is necessary, and compulsion needs to be take out of the picture.

I’m still not clear what it is about compulsion that you see as so necessary. I cannot understand the desire to retain an approach that has so manifestly failed to achieve its objective.

SeanW

I never said we were a people without an identity you just keep putting up the arguement that Irish isn't part of Irish identity..
"deserted themselves" I never said that.

And what in gods name does anything you said have to do with irish in education???

It has everything to do with Irish in education. Your whole argument that Ireland would have no soul, identity or whatever without the Irish language. This necessitating continuance of compulsive Irish language education and other frantic, extremist and frankly pointless measures to keep it on life support.

It is almost totally unused in everyday life and this is a key fact. Language is not the be-all-and-end-all that you claim. Our identity is made so much stronger by our traditions, our music, sports (like GAA) and so on, that even if the Irish language DID die out completely (which wouldn't even happen anyway), Irish identity would still be strong and firm.

Regarding education, times have changed since 1930 when all one needed was enough English to survive in England and America, or for farmers enough math and skills to run/work an antiquated farm.

We've gone from this to a situation whereby the Irish language has more or less died, but the economy has moved on in leaps and bounds - with more high-value jobs, and now we just had a warning from FAS that the population needs to upskill.

With a language weaker than ever despire humungous government interference, an identity stronger than ever, and changing set of demands on the population and education system, we need to get real. A full, comprehensive review of 2nd level education is needed, and antiquities held sacred such as religion and compulsive Irish need to be put under a very intense spotlight.

GaryOR

I’m still not clear what it is about compulsion that you see as so necessary. I cannot understand the desire to retain an approach that has so manifestly failed to achieve its objective.

Changes need to be made first before compulsion can be introduced I'm sure you've heard that already.
If changes (unspecified) are not made first and the subject is left optional then you would agree it will only go the road that Latin has taken (I'm not defending latin just using an example). But maybe thats what you want?

I for one would not take Irish as a subject (as it stands) if it was made optional, I would do a study class or something easy for example. So making it optional now, would have a negative effect. As I said before its a matter of timing.

But it is simply a fact that a concerted effort was made over a couple of generations to replace English with Irish

I never heard of any effort to replace English with Irish, being bilingual doesn't mean dropping languages. Please don't worry about the English language, its fine, really.

Our identity is made so much stronger by our traditions, our music, sports (like GAA) and so on, that even if the Irish language DID die out completely (which wouldn't even happen anyway), Irish identity would still be strong and firm.

Thanks Sean but you don't have to lecture me on Irish culture.. of course Irish identity is strong, and Irish isn't part of your identity as an Irish man, which is fine. but your refusal to see that without Irish there wouldn't be an Irish identity in the first place is confusing!
No point going in circles, and its all just down to opinion anyway.

but the economy has moved on in leaps and bounds - with more high-value jobs, and now we just had a warning from FAS that the population needs to upskill.

Yes we have a good economy!, your point about upskilling the work force is confusing! Are you blaming Irish for unskilled labour?

And please don't add a point that some Engineering/IT subject should replace Irish to reverse trends of labour skills.
I'm an Engineer and there's not a thing in the Leaving cert now or in the future that will be of any value to college courses etc..

Nollaig shona daoibh, ar aon nós

ishmael whale

GaryOR wrote:

I never heard of any effort to replace English with Irish, being bilingual doesn't mean dropping languages. Please don't worry about the English language, its fine, really.

It is simply a fact that there was an attempt to make Irish the primary language of the state. That’s why it’s the first official language – we were all meant to be speaking it by now.

GaryOR wrote:

I for one would not take Irish as a subject (as it stands) if it was made optional, I would do a study class or something easy for example. So making it optional now, would have a negative effect.

But you seem to be equating the compulsory taking Irish in the Leaving with some beneficial result for the language. That’s what puzzles me.

If you dropped Leaving Cert Irish but pursued it as an interest outside of school and ended up actually using it in social situations or whatever, it would actually have more of an impact on the real position of Irish than press-ganging students into doing an exam after which they drop the language never to be thought of again.

Grudaire

Although not always a bad thing we are becomeing more like other cultures, borrowing what we like. To be honest apart from gaelic and hurling the only irish culture we have outside the gaeltachts is a drink one.

xXxnaoisexXx

i think irish should be optional because some people just do not get the language and i just had christmas exams there and i had irish and french all mixed up so i think we should have an option to eather do irish or a european language. i think irish is a waste of time anyway because when you are looking for a job there is only one or two jobs that you need irish for.

SeanW

Cliste wrote:

Although not always a bad thing we are becomeing more like other cultures, borrowing what we like. To be honest apart from gaelic and hurling the only irish culture we have outside the gaeltachts is a drink one.

At last, we get to the crux of the problem: without Gaeilge, Ireland would have little or no culture: wrong.

I suppose you've forgotten all the poets we had, Playboy of the Western world and all the other wonderful stuff you learned in leaving cert. Ever been to a pub? What do you get in there besides drink?
Trád Music.
Ireland has piles of musical culture ranging from old-fashioned style traditional music, to a major representation on the national and world stage of Irish musical talent in modern rock and pop. Look in your CD collection (if you still buy CDs, or your Mp3 collection if not) and you'll probably find a lot of Irish musicians and bands there. I know I have a good few.

We've also got a strong identity around sports, the GAA is going from strength to strength - and long may that continue. We also know that the Brazilians would pulverise our soccer team, and the All-Blacks the rugby team but it doesn't matter, both are still loved and followed, to a certain extent identified with.

If the majority, or even a respectable minority, of people considered the Irish language part of their identity, you'd have nothing to fear from it being made elective. 80 years of government initiatives and compulsive education have achieved absolutely nothing. This while everything else to do with our identity and culture has rightly grown in leaps and bounds. To mind that says way more than anything you can say in defense of compulsion.

Diorraing

SeanW wrote:

What we need IMO going into the future is more technologies, more sciences, more business, drivers ed, foreign languages, musical studies and arts. A varied student focused curriculum, with a generous helping of electives. Things like Irish should be made elective (where I have no doubt that some students would decide to take it) and Religion abolished (2005 and we still have Religious Education in school, WTF?). A complete review is required.

All I can say is thank god you're not minister for education or our children would not be taught to think for themselves at all. Are you serious about having drivers ed as a subject. Talk about dumbing down the course!!! Why do we need more businesses - people can do that in college anyway. Perhaps you didn't study Latin at school but for your info, "educo" means to lead out or to inspire. Its not about handing children their job info at the age of 12, its about developing their mind. How does one develop the mind? Philosophy, literature (in a variety of languages) and Mathematics.
Our schools should not be factories but places of inspiration

SeanW

>_< FFS. I'm having to deal with that all the time here. Last time it was "I'd hate if you were Taoiseach, we'd all be walking in circles grinding grain to dust"

Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe there should be more electives in secondary education. Where I was in Connecticut, one of the electives available was Music. Now I hadn't a hope in hell of using it in my career, but I found it interesting, engaging and so on. It was a really cool mix of everything from Mozart to Leonard Bernstein. My education in the U.S. both opened my mind - Big time - and helped me choose a career. Why can't we have the same thing here?

Are you serious about having drivers ed as a subject.

Dead serious. If it saved even one life, it would be absolutely worth it.

Perhaps you didn't study Latin at school but for your info, "educo" means to lead out or to inspire. Its not about handing children their job info at the age of 12, its about developing their mind.

No, that wasn't an option. But I agree 100%.

How does one develop the mind? Philosophy, literature (in a variety of languages)

Great, lets have those as electives too - I'm dead serious.

Our schools should not be factories but places of inspiration

TBH at the moment it seems the only purpose attached to secondary school these days is the race for LC points.

And I know lots of people from my old school who never went anywhere, many of them very bright. Partly because no-one ever asked them "What interests you? What would you like to explore further?" It was all core subjects including stuff like Irish that *someone else* decided should be rammed down their throats becuase "it's part of your identity whether you realise it or not." That's what I want to fix.

You say education is all about broadening the mind, I place some focus on preparing the person for the cold, hard, realities of life.

My point is that the present education system is so outdated that it does neither adequately.

yes it should definitely be optional seeming as the vastly more important subjects of science are optional?

Diorraing

SeanW, its all well and good to say that we will have subjects like Irish and Philosophy as electives - subjects that actually develop the mind but they will not be chosen by the vast number of students because they are not straightforward and crammable. In the points race the student looks for the subject that he can receive most points in, not the subject that will further him intellectually. Compulsory Irish is not the problem, the points race is. Abandoning compulsory Irish is feeding the evil system. After that English will have to follow when people begin to realise that its of "no practical use"

SeanW

Finally we get to the real crux of the problem: the education system. I wouldn't call abandoning compulsory Irish "feeding the evil system." Though one thing is clear - and I've maintained this from the start: The secondary education system needs a comprehensive review and an overhaul, where all issues including the "points race" are tackled.Obviously if you put Irish as an elective against MTV studies in the current climate the resounding choice would be no-brainer.
BUT: If you put Irish into an elective category with Philosophy and World culture/literature, all 3 subjects are equally going to be a beech to study. But they still have to give one a chance. That forces the student to look at serious and fundamental questions about themselves and their interests.

Assuming the current leaving cert system remains as is, an expanded elective system could, for example, group subjects by difficulty - give everyone a mandate for of one of three academically "easy" subjects, one of three medium sujects and one of three advanced subjects.

One could give Irish a leg-up and put it in with the advanced subjects, so the student has little or nothing to gain academically by giving it a wide berth. Then the fundamental questions come back into play: how many young people would actually WANT to do the language - even in the most ideal circumstance? who are the patriotic young republicans and how many are there?

What is needed is for the Irish language to be elective-ised on a level playing pitch.

And come on, English of no practical use?

Grudaire

SeanW wrote:

how many young people would actually WANT to do the language - even in the most ideal circumstance? who are the patriotic young republicans and how many are there?

I'm one, and I am still in secondary school, agus is maith é. Tá cairde agam agus is maith leo gaeilge. I'm not the only one who like Irish. And if you want to go to the most ideal circumstance beidh gach duine ag caint liom. Not one of my school, or peers would go against compulsary Irish. If anything the minority is bullying the gaelgeoirs into a dislike of Irish

Nobody would like drivers ed, after two classes it would be back to don't drink and drive, look left and right etc.

English classes are of no practical use. I have a good english teacher, who does more then teach english, otherwise I'd have my own campaign against 'compulsary' english

SeanW

Cliste wrote:

I'm one, and I am still in secondary school, ... I'm not the only one who like Irish. ... Not one of my school, or peers would go against compulsary Irish.

Then you have nothing to fear, as - in your school at least, Irish would have a 100% uptake?

If anything the minority is bullying the gaelgeoirs into a dislike of Irish

Puhhhhlease. Gimme a break, the only thing I see happening are sanctimonious people ramming the language down the throats of those who don't see the language as part of their lives, identities etc. If the Irish language is part of your view of things, great - study it all you like and I wish you well with it.

You don't happen to live in a Gaeltacht by any chance?

Nobody would like drivers ed, after two classes it would be back to don't drink and drive, look left and right etc.

As a full subject, perhaps. But as a once weekly subject - replacing Religion - it could be quite valuable.

English classes are of no practical use. I have a good english teacher, who does more then teach english, otherwise I'd have my own campaign against 'compulsary' english

Whao, so if your English teacher was not so good, you'd have a campaign against the subject? Really sound thinking there ...

Diorraing

SeanW wrote:

Puhhhhlease. Gimme a break, the only thing I see happening are sanctimonious people ramming the language down the throats of those who don't see the language as part of their lives, identities etc. If the Irish language is part of your view of things, great - study it all you like and I wish you well with it.

Ha ha, you've completely contradicted yourself. Don't you see that the arguments you are making can be used against compulsory English and Maths. I don't want to see English as part of my life, identity but you sir are trying to "ramm it down my throat". I also have no interest or need for maths and again you're ramming it into my brain. Aboloshing compulsory Irish sets a precedent for all other compulsory subjects and if you ignore this you can be accused of possessing double standards and quite frankly being anti-Irish.

Another issue which really hasn't been touched on is the importance of the Irish Language to our national identity because lets be honest - thats why its compulsory. Having our own language is what distinguishes us from other countries. The G.A.A, Irish music and dancing are all important in having our own culture but they don't distinguish us from other races. I know I'm going to get a really cynical reaction to this in the form of "Uh, nobody speaks it, its unimportant, its not part of my national identity". Well, the fact of the matter is we have a choice. Do we become a completely anglacised/americanised nation or do we try to regain the very thing that differs us from them. We must ask ourselves, do we want to turn into a "Little Britain" because abolishing compulsory Irish endorses the anglicisation of our country.

SeanW

Well, the argument could be made ... but someone would have to make it - and be taken seriously.

The defense of compulsory English and Maths has nil to do with identity. It's a case of basic necessity. Show me an education system on Earth that does not require Mathematical studies to Graduation. It obviously must be useful for SOMETHING ... Same deal for English, which is not only the main language of this country, but the main international language. English is compulsory in many parts of the world not just English speaking countries. There are very few situations where the English language itself is of no use.
What's more, there is much of Irish culture in the English subject, our poets, Keats, Kavangah, playwrights like J. M. Synge who wrote in English, and of course the argument COULD be made that these are surplus to modern requirements. But I'm not making this argument, you are. Now who's anti-Irish?

Another issue which really hasn't been touched on is the importance of the Irish Language to our national identity because lets be honest - thats why its compulsory.

It had been touched on before you entered the debate.

The G.A.A, Irish music and dancing are all important in having our own culture but they don't distinguish us from other races.

They do, and they are key to our national identity in just the same way as America wouldn't be America without Apple pie, the Stars and Stripes, American Football, Baseball, Country Music and monster SUVs.

Make no mistake about it, our strong menu of sports, modern and Trád music from Irish artists, dancing, pubs and so on, are key to our definition.
People don't need to be forced to keep our culture and identity alive in a wide variety of ways, so arguments that compulsory Irish is needed to stop us becoming "Little Britain" or "the 51st state" are fallacious, as the above would be rather difficult to do - not that more of the same failed visions could stop this happening if it were. Those parts of our culture which do thrive today such as GAA, do so because large numbers of people want them. That's a key point.

abolishing compulsory Irish endorses the anglicisation of our country.

Nope, it just recognises that things have changed since 1800.

Grudaire

In fact I do not live in the gaeltacht. In what would be considered a posh part of northside Dublin, Must you feel that people are steriotypes? And neither do I go to a gaelscoil.
You could say I was one of McWilliams Gaelscoil elite, you would agree with the steriotyping I'm sure.
The thing is that without gaeltachts there are fewer areas going to bother with tradisional music, The only people who seem to like most of what you claim to be the Irishness that will flourish with the end of Irish are those who like Irish. I don't even like most of our tradisional music etc...

Diorraing

SeanW wrote:

.
What's more, there is much of Irish culture in the English subject, our poets, Keats, Kavangah, playwrights like J. M. Synge who wrote in English, and of course the argument COULD be made that these are surplus to modern requirements. But I'm not making this argument, you are. Now who's anti-Irish? .

I never said we shouldn't learn English. All I am saying is that the logic you use against Irish can be used against compulsory English. If you do not accept that than you are guilty of double standards.
You keep talkin about Irish as being of no use. The whole point of compulsory Irish is to make it useful - to have more speakers. The reason we don't use Irish at the moment is because it is being taught dreadfully and everyone accepts that

SeanW wrote:

.
They do, and they are key to our national identity in just the same way as America wouldn't be America without Apple pie, the Stars and Stripes, American Football, Baseball, Country Music and monster SUVs.

America has no culture worth talking of

SeanW

I never said we shouldn't learn English.

You seemed quite adamant here ...

I don't want to see English as part of my life, identity but you sir are trying to "ramm it down my throat". I also have no interest or need for maths and again you're ramming it into my brain.

Perhaps I missed your point? But that still doesn't change the fact that Irish and English/Maths are two different kettles of fish. To make maths optional would be to fly in the face of all national and international experience, my understanding is that all education systems worldwide (or most of them anyway) mandate mathematics from pre-school to graduation.

So you would need a very different, and much stronger argument for the abolition of maths class.

Similar for English, where my understanding is that many education systems mandate it, even in non-English speaking countries. So looking at national and international experience, there are strong defenses of both English and maths, thus mandating different arguments for their elective-isation. The same logic is not applicable.

America has no culture worth talking of

Right ... it's own menu of sports, music, and respectable literary tradition, storywriters and poets such as Edgar Allen Poe, Helen Stelanor Rice, Mark Twain ... sure, no culture ... if you're blind and living in la'la land.

You could say I was one of McWilliams Gaelscoil elite,

That was my next guess. Followed by Sinn Fein supporter.

The only people who seem to like most of what you claim to be the Irishness that will flourish with the end of Irish

No, parts of our culture such as the GAA are already flourishing. Maybe you haven't noticed that the GAA has been going from strength to strength these last 20 years, they just rebuilt Croke Park 10 years ago with little Government support, since then the FAI has been dithering around with the Bertie Bowl, Eircom Park, Genesis report, and a revolving door of managers, executives and board members.
That's because the GAA has strong leadership and population that likes what they do.

I don't even like most of our tradisional music etc...

Neither do I, but that's becuase musical tastes change over time, the Germans probably don't listen to as much polka/marching band/classical music as they used to 100 years ago. Times change and so do tastes and lifestyles, that doesn't mean we lose our identity/culture. Right now I'm listening to U2, and someone in Germany is listening to Rammstein. That's life.

Still, if you're like me you probably have a few rebel songs in your music collection as well as plently of modern music sung/produced by Irish artists.

Grudaire

SeanW wrote:

That was my next guess. Followed by Sinn Fein supporter.

That's because the GAA has strong leadership and population that likes what they do.

That's right All of us from the school are exactly the same..... I never even seen a jumper with shamrocks on it.
Sinn Féin are a bunch of muppets, which is surprising, as when I don't distrust them with our economy, or lives I agree with them.
I'm guessing you're fine gael? while we are at the whole name calling thing the whole fascist thing is coming through....

As a meber of the GAA and one of the few to play three of the GAA sports, I wonder why you say the GAA is flourishing, they where just bullied into allowing a bunch of idiots(managment) and posh not so idiotic idiots to use their stadium. I didn't like that because other nonGAA sports where getting all the GAA's attention, while the handball alley where I play is being bullied by Pairc an Croicaigh Teo. They only just got the licence back.

It's happening again I've been distracted from ag labhairt an gaeilge mar ní stopann tú an gearann

SeanW

SeanW wrote:

This is getting off-topic and the moderators prob. going to step in, but I'll answer anyway.

Yes, it is. There's a GAA board in the sports section if ye want to take it there. Or else discuss it in this forum in Irish!

/edit

Sorry, SeanW. I pressed edit instead of quote by accident and unfortunately, I can't reverse it so your post has disappeared. But continue the discussion on Irish (but not on GAA) for as long as ye want.

-simu

SeanW

No worries simu. Stuff happens. I'll end this by saying I disagree with your view of the GAA, and leave it there.

That's right All of us from the school are exactly the same

No, but all of you with this ridiculous siege mentality are exactly the same. No amount of madness, waste, or imposition, it seems, is too much to keep this language in a Terry Schaivo style state for what could be all eternity. Unlike a brain-dead body however, the language won't die completely when you take out one feeding tube.

I'm guessing you're fine gael?

Non affiliated ... Still, Enda Kenny's started talking sense recently.

while we are at the whole name calling thing the whole fascist thing is coming through....

Veiled, themed insults have been going both ways, mostly from the gaeilgoir side - Anti-Irish, slavedriver, etc. Indeed on the letters thread you clearly stated that people who didn't make an effort to use the Irish language shouldn't be considered Irish, which is a fair percentage of the population ... We'd all do well to stay from that sort of thing.

I just long for the day when we will have an education system that is student focused and modern, and I belive Enda Kenny got the ball rolling on doing just that by calling for the removal of compulsive Irish post junior cert. "What about Maths/English?" is not an argument, both are key.

School shouldn't be about keeping some ultra-nationalist fanatics happy or making some ridiculous cultural statement, or have hangovers from the past (like Religion), but should be student focused and develop the student's mind as well as helping them find their interests, individual identities and possible careers.

It can be done as we have good leadership in the schools and most teachers are good (my experience) all that's needed is a review to make better evaluation structures and a wider choice of electives. But the plain harsh truth is that for this to happen the Bishops and Gaeilgoirs need to take a back seat.
For the good of the country.

Diorraing

If SeanW is finished with the insults I'd like to resume the argument on a more sophisticated level. It seems as though the anti-Irish lobby are beating around the bush on the major issues. Your logic for having compulsory Maths is: Every other country has it - firstly that is not true (look at England), secondly, even if it was true - so what? You must show that this is having a positive effect. Quite frankly I dunnot believe that the vast majority of people ever use Leaving Cert maths ever. I am for math being compulsory but using your logic I would be against it. You have all the English you need after Junior Cert level. Much as I would love to find the answers to all life's problems in Shakespeare - I don't.
You have completely negelected the value of Irish to our culture and identity. If for one moment you look beyond the economic side of things you will see that having our own language, spoken by Irish people is the ultimate sign of independance.
Why don't you just come clean and say that you're anti-Irish language? Then we can debate the reason why you are so. Hiding behind other arguments just ignores the major issue that needs to be discussed.

CerebralCortex

Diorraing wrote:

....having our own language, spoken by Irish people is the ultimate sign of independance....

Is it really in fairness?

luckat

I'd love to hear Irish spoken as an equal language in Ireland.

SeanW

Re: the insults they've been going both ways, I agree let's drop them.

Your logic for having compulsory Maths is: Every other country has it - firstly that is not true (look at England), secondly

I was wrong on this point, to be expected as I did not know for sure. That's why I used the phrase "It is my understanding ..." My point was that with many schools worldwide mandating maths, those seeking it's removal here would need different and stronger arguments. Please explain the "Anti-Irish lobby" comment as this confused me.

You have all the English you need after Junior Cert level.

You forget that by Junior Cert, the student will already have had NINE years Irish language education, for most of whom it will be all for nothing. So please tell us more about useless education, as it all goes back to the failed policy of compulsive Irish - and further back than Junior Cert. Way further.

Much as I would love to find the answers to all life's problems in Shakespeare - I don't.

Well, my 4th and 5th year English was all poetry of Keats and Kavanagh, as well as Playboy of the Western World (J.M. Synge), this I found quite enlightening and enjoyable. I for one have yet to be convinced that the above are dispensable.

You have completely negelected the value of Irish to our culture and identity.

I showed how you can have a whole identity AND culture, without a language, the U.S.A. is a major example of this, with their own sports (Baseball, American Football), patriotism, music (country etc) and a respectable literary tradition. Much like we do with GAA, Irish dancing (albeit small), Trad and showband music, poets and playwrights, as well as our modern musical talent. Your (and Cliste's) respone? Anti-Americanism.
I also mentioned Switzerland, AFAIK another good example though obviously I know less about it.

If for one moment you look beyond the economic side of things

>_< have you been reading my posts? I made it clear that while I believe the main function of education is to prepare the student for the harsh realities of life - including working life - it should ALSO focus on the student, forcing decisiveness, and expanding their minds, including subjects that may be useless at work, like music, philosophy, literature, Irish - AS ELECTIVES. I DO "look beyond the economic side of things," just even doing so I find no justification for compulsive Irish.

Why don't you just come clean and say that you're anti-Irish language?

This may come as a shock. I'm not Anti-Gaeilge because I don't care about it either way. I am, however, pro live-and-let-live and pro-realism.

I'm realistic to know that if a student absolutely hates learning Irish (read this), enough not to sit the exam paper by the thousands, that continuance of the failed policy doesn't benefit anyone. Least of all the stressed out students who spent 1500 valuable student-teacher hours learning something so pointless they don't even try to get 5 LC points out of it.
Also while I couldn't give a toss what happens to Gaeilge, others love it. That's why I believe training in it should be available both in school (good luck to Cliste in your studies) and after - to those who want it. That's why I suggested replacing compulsory Irish with an overhauled elective course AND free adult Irish education.
I had hoped you would understand that for many Irish people, the Irish language just doesn't have any relevance. Me included.

It's not enough to patch things up by saying "lets overhaul the Irish curriculum - sometime" the whole system is a throwback to 1950. Compulsive Irish, the continuance of religious education, and the LC "points race" are tell tale signs of an education system that ceased to be optimal a long time ago.

Diorraing

SeanW wrote:

You forget that by Junior Cert, the student will already have had NINE years Irish language education, for most of whom it will be all for nothing. So please tell us more about useless education, as it all goes back to the failed policy of compulsive Irish - and further back than Junior Cert. Way further.

Thats why I am calling for a complete revamping of the course. If more emphasis is put on spoken Irish there is no reason why most young people wouldn't be able to speak Irish by the time they graduate. After that they are going to have far more opportunities to use Irish than they will any other foreign language. Lets face it, its a lot easier to use Irish than French or German: Irish T.V, Irish Radio, Irish books, Irish Newspapers, Irish Magazines, Plenty of jobs requiring Irish,
If I wanted to use French: I don't have French TV, I don't have French Radio, I can't buy French books in any bookshop near me, I can't buy French newspapers in any shop within 4 miles. The only time I'll ever use my L.C French is if I go on holidays to France - which would only be for two weeks and in which I probably wouldn't speak French or would have forgotten it through lack of practice.
Ergo, Irish is a far more useful language for the ordinary Irish person than other Eurpoean languages and an effort to promote it should be done.

R0ot

No its the language of our country, i sucked at it but its a cool language and i wish i had been taught it better from baby infants class upwards

SeanW

Thats why I am calling for a complete revamping of the course.

You're calling for a feeble patching-up of the 1950s system, all while avoiding reality.

Irish T.V

TG4? Only survives by sucking up government funds and RTE programming like a sponge while still being a minority interest. They admit this openly in their last annual report.

Most of those jobs you speak of are government jobs (such as the move to make Irish an EU language, so we can spend more millions of euro translating umpteen pages of stuff for - what - 2 people to read them?).

If I wanted to use French:

You could get any of the thosands of call centre jobs, sales jobs, support positions, foreign recruitments, or senior positions at an Irish subsidiary of a foreign firm, many of which mandate a particular foreign langage.
And all that is before we think of all the new-wealthy Irish who take more foreign holidays, buy homes in Paris, or the Mediterranean Coast, who move or go travelling longer term to Europe to see the world. Again that needs a foreign language.
In both work and leisure, our horizons have never been wider.

Key point is that I have yet to be convinced of 2 things:

1. That the electivisation (done properly) of the language could contribute to it's downfall
2. that anything of value would be lost even in the unlikely event that it did.

Grudaire

SeanW wrote:

You're calling for a feeble patching-up of the 1950s system, all while avoiding reality.

Most of those jobs you speak of are government jobs (such as the move to make Irish an EU language, so we can spend more millions of euro translating umpteen pages of stuff for - what - 2 people to read them?).

You could get any of the thosands of call centre jobs, sales jobs, support positions, foreign recruitments, or senior positions at an Irish subsidiary of a foreign firm, many of which mandate a particular foreign langage.
And all that is before we think of all the new-wealthy Irish who take more foreign holidays, buy homes in Paris, or the Mediterranean Coast, who move or go travelling longer term to Europe to see the world. Again that needs a foreign language.
In both work and leisure, our horizons have never been wider.

Key point is that I have yet to be convinced of 2 things:

1. That the electivisation (done properly) of the language could contribute to it's downfall
2. that anything of value would be lost even in the unlikely event that it did.

What is reality? that we should stop a subject because people don't like it. Few like math.... I being a nerd like both, but many others wouldn't take math if they could, It has no practical application except to test your logic Gaeilge is a language, a method of communication.

As an Gaeilge is the first national language the documents have to be in Irish, As far as I know, in law the Gaeilge version is the main one, and mistakes on that are the law. Do you wish for a referendum to change Irelands first language away from Irish?

As far as my knowlage extends When people go abroad they tend to use Irish more.... This isn't just me, generally told to me by people like you used arguing against Irish...... So although needing a foreign language their own teanga nádurtha becomes more important to them.

I don't think that any of us will be convinced against their original thoughts,
I think An Gaeilge should be compulsary, as when you misguided have your eyes opened to the truth about Irish we don't want you to feel left out when everyone is speaking Irish.

ishmael whale

Cliste wrote:

What is reality? that we should stop a subject because people don't like it. Few like math.... I being a nerd like both, but many others wouldn't take math if they could, It has no practical application except to test your logic Gaeilge is a language, a method of communication.

Just to be clear, Irish is the only compulsory Leaving Cert subject. Maths and English are not. This is not just a theoretical thing - for example you can gain entry to TCD without Maths if you have Latin, or attend GMIT if you have Irish and Maths but didn't do Irish. The whole 'why should Irish be made optional if Maths and English aren't' argument is based on a misunderstanding of the present reality - English and Maths are optional. I posted up a relevant link in my post above.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50455596&postcount=86

GaryOR

ishmael whale wrote:

Just to be clear, Irish is the only compulsory Leaving Cert subject. Maths and English are not. This is not just a theoretical thing - for example you can gain entry to TCD without Maths if you have Latin, or attend GMIT if you have Irish and Maths but didn't do Irish. The whole 'why should Irish be made optional if Maths and English aren't' argument is based on a misunderstanding of the present reality - English and Maths are optional. I posted up a relevant link in my post above.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50455596&postcount=86

I don't remember ever having the choice not to do English or Maths...

SeanW

Cliste wrote:

What is reality?

That the language is almost totally unused outside government usage. It is almost totally irrelevant in modern society and only considered part of the personal identity of a minority.

As an Gaeilge is the first national language the documents have to be in Irish, As far as I know, in law the Gaeilge version is the main one, and mistakes on that are the law.

Considering that something like only 1/10 solicitors can practice law in Irish, this seems like a dangerous situation.

Do you wish for a referendum to change Irelands first language away from Irish?

No-one would vote in it except the fanatics becuase few others care either way.

As far as my knowlage extends When people go abroad they tend to use Irish more.... This isn't just me, generally told to me by people like you used arguing against Irish

Huh?

I don't think that any of us will be convinced against their original thoughts

You're probably right.

I think An Gaeilge should be compulsary, as when you misguided have your eyes opened to the truth about Irish we don't want you to feel left out when everyone is speaking Irish.

Riiiiiight. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting though ...

ishmael whale

GaryOR wrote:

I don't remember ever having the choice not to do English or Maths...

Nevertheless, they are optional Leaving Cert subjects - although let me make it absolutely clear I was also under the mistaken impression they were also compulsory until I recently checked the Department of Education website.
The simple fact is that Irish currently has a unique compulsory status - so if people are truly of the opinion that Irish can be made optional if the same status is applied to Maths and English they are actually saying that the ending of compulsory Irish is long overdue.

Grudaire

SeanW wrote:

That the language is almost totally unused outside government usage. It is almost totally irrelevant in modern society and only considered part of the personal identity of a minority.

Considering that something like only 1/10 solicitors can practice law in Irish, this seems like a dangerous situation.

No-one would vote in it except the fanatics becuase few others care either way.

Riiiiiight. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting though ...

Firstly that is your angle on reality.
Secondly is my communication skills that bad I said IT IS THE FIRST NATIONAL LANGUAGE look in your bunracht na hÉireann(that’s our constitution, or don’t you know what we’re talking about), It would be a referendum about the language not in the language.
Thirdly It’s a fact not a dangerous situation. If bunracht na héireann is wrong in english, but right in Irish the Irish version is taken without a referendum, if the Irish version is wrong, and the english version right we have to wait for a referendum while murderers walk free…. That’s a Fact
Lastly that was a joke: Funny look on what we are arguing, slightly the truth, but Ironic….. Maybe I’m not actually funny…..

GaryOR

ishmael whale wrote:

Nevertheless, they are optional Leaving Cert subjects - although let me make it absolutely clear I was also under the mistaken impression they were also compulsory until I recently checked the Department of Education website.
The simple fact is that Irish currently has a unique compulsory status - so if people are truly of the opinion that Irish can be made optional if the same status is applied to Maths and English they are actually saying that the ending of compulsory Irish is long overdue.

From what I can remember people who genuinely didn't want to do Irish had the choice, in my school anyway. And not just those who's parents came back from the states or the UK, born and bred Irish people opted out aswell.... so is the optional status that necessary???

SeanW

My understanding of LC requirements had been that you must acheive a passing mark in Ordinary level in Mathematics AND either Enligsh or Irish.

And yes, the rules on returning emmigrants etc, who were out of the education system for a while, or new to it, are entitled to a derogation from Irish, thank God I got this.

My classmates weren't so lucky however

The rule had been changed in the past 10 years from a previous status-quo where those who came new/returned to the system had to play catch-up.

It mustn't have worked very well.

so is the optional status that necessary???

Yes it is.

Secondly is my communication skills that bad I said IT IS THE FIRST NATIONAL LANGUAGE look in your bunracht na hÉireann

Again government is the main user of the Irish language.

Thirdly It’s a fact not a dangerous situation.

It IS a dangerous situation because 90-95% of solicitors are technically incapable of dealing in Ireland's law if this is true. I just hope there AREN'T any mistakes in translations or something somewhere is going to be a confused mess.