Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

hullaballoo · 12-12-2005 01:43AM

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JustCoz · 12-12-2005 02:09AM

So by your "logic" a person isn't Irish as a child if they come from a family which does not speak Irish as it's first language.

Solid reasoning there mate. You've just made the vast majority of the country not Irish. I wonder if they agree...

I think you missed the point i was trying to make Nesf. I wasn't saying that you need to be fluent in Irish to be Irish, or even have to speak it well, most people can't. I didn't grow up in a house that spoke Irish. I was saying that you can't consider yourself truly Irish with such a grudge against one of the fundamentals that makes you Irish.

I just think that you need to have a respect for the language and an appreciation for it's worth. Blatant insults and undermining of the language are a reflection on your opinion of your nationality.

nesf · 12-12-2005 02:39AM

JustCoz wrote:

I think you missed the point i was trying to make Nesf. I wasn't saying that you need to be fluent in Irish to be Irish, or even have to speak it well, most people can't. I didn't grow up in a house that spoke Irish. I was saying that you can't consider yourself truly Irish with such a grudge against one of the fundamentals that makes you Irish.

Ah, so is it enough to have cupla focail or should a person be able to converse briefly in the language or write and comprehend it? Personally, my opinion is that it would be nice for people to be able to converse to a reasonable degree in Irish. I think that this would be a good thing for people and most of my friends (that don't speak Irish) agree with me on this.

But being able to converse with Irish and Irish being compulsory for the Leaving are two completely different things. An Honours Irish student might struggle with great difficulty to speak even briefly in the language yet do quite well in the written exam. Surely this is a sign that we need to seperate the issues of speaking and studying the language?

You don't need to do Irish for the leaving to be able to speak it. In fact, it seems to make little difference if you study it at honours or pass in this country. Unless you go to a Gaelscol you probably can't have much of a conversation in the language. It's sad but it's true. Then, it's the same with the foreign languages taught at that level. People might have delusions of being near fluent at French because they got an A1 but anyone who actually is fluent in the language will tell you that at most you have a grasp of the basics after the leaving cert and have a long way to go before you could be considered fluent.

JustCoz wrote:

I just think that you need to have a respect for the language and an appreciation for it's worth. Blatant insults and undermining of the language are a reflection on your opinion of your nationality.

See this is where this all breaks down for me. People seem to be very confused and overly defensive on even the hint of the idea that Irish mightn't be suitable to be a compulsory subject for the leaving. It is not an undermining of the language to say that it should be optional for the leaving. The leaving is not the be all and end all of education! There is nothing stopping a person trying to learn the language later in life.

Saying that Irish shouldn't be compulsory is not immediately an undermining or an attack on the language itself! It's a questioning of it's validity as a compulsory subject in a very harsh and stressful education system. If anything I favour with those who propose that nothing is compulsory after the junior cert. It is very very difficult to justify compulsory subjects in a system that is so highly geared towards results across the board.

People on this thread, on both sides, are making this into a huge ideological battle encouraging a partisian divide between those who value Irish and those who don't. Personally I find this to be bull****. People are getting far far too stressed over this. You need to keep this in the context of a person sitting their leaving cert. That person is the one effected by this, not us.

If a person does it to Junior then they should have enough of the basics to be able to expand this knowledge if they so wish. Forcing them to take the subject into what is one of the most stressful periods of their life to date is not going to help things.

Make it optional, then the students might feel a bit patriotic when they choose to keep on their national language. Versus now where they feel that it's being rammed down their throats. I honestly don't believe that making it optional will harm the level of fluency in the language in this country. There will always be people who won't want to learn it, that's unavoidable. It's finding a way to make more people care is the big issue. Perhaps giving them a choice might do that. They might feel "empowered" or something.

Peanut · 12-12-2005 04:53AM

hullaballoo wrote:

There’s also a contention that because Irish is compulsive, many students resent it. Well to be frank, that’s a problem with their attitude.

So we should all be good little students and parents, and accept whatever syllabus has been decreed, without critical thought?
Sorry but I Would prefer students with 'an attitude', no need for anarchy, just some faith in people to take control of their own lives would be nice.

hullaballoo wrote:

Another thing; we are none of us “forced” to do a single thing in our lives.
...
So, we choose to do Irish once we decide that it is an education we are after.

This is really hilarious, so we have a choice in the matter because we can decide whether to be educated or not? Wonderful.

To the people who are putting forward the exceedingly silly 'But kids would choose to watch tv if you let them'

That is a complete non-argument, perhaps you would prefer if there were no optional subjects??? Surely it would simplify the whole of second level education, don't you think?

It appears from this thread that most of the people in favour of keeping the absurd status quo are already fluent in Irish to at least some extent, it's no surprise then that they may not understand the difficulties in having to learn another, unnecessary language at a time when, as has been pointed out, there is already significant stress.

It also find it especially small-minded that people would look down on others as less 'Irish' as themselves, due to their lack of Gaeilge.
Can you live and let live a bit? Can you understand that there are multiple ways of expressing an identity with your country, and that this is not the be all and end all of a person's worth? Sure, it may instill national pride to be aware of and conversant in the historical traditions of your homeland, but please do not insist that everyone do the same, it gets tired very quickly.

SeanW · 12-12-2005 06:01AM

but who in their right mind would suggest that Dutch be made optional in the schools?

Dutch is their primary language, Irish is not ours. That is the difference.

Now, I know I'm going to be hit with the "yeah but Irish isn't in use all the time, Dutch is" line so I'm going to mount a pre-emptive attack on that one. Irish isn't in popular use because it isn't taught correctly in schools, not because Irish people don't want to speak it.

Idealistic bull. Irish isn't spoken because people have decided not to use it. The Dutch language may have remained alive but Irish was largely dropped from our real culture a long time ago.

This has nothing to do with English whatsoever. Nobody has mentioned not wanting to speak English, so make another, sensible point.

Sorry, wrong again, at least one person on this thread has compared optional Irish to optional English and maths and another has said that "we shouldn't give the Brits the satisfaction" or something like that. It has everything to do with English.

There seems to be a huge fault here around the basic point of whether Irish is any use or not. That is a non-issue in real terms:

That a language is not used is a non-issue? That is a laugh.

Arguing that it’s no use is along the same grounds as arguing that French is any use.

French is not mandatory in any Irish school but millions upon millions of people use it in their everyday lives. Anything you can say is good about learning "a" language could be applied to French.

If you’re going to take that line of argument, then why are we even bothering with a tower of Babel? Why don’t we all just settle on English, and do away with all of the other nuisance languages?

I would have no objection to this as I consider language to be more of a barrier than anything else. I recognise however that this view is not common, and that "all of the other nuisance languages" are PRIMARY languages for large numbers of the world's population.

There’s also a contention that because Irish is compulsive, many students resent it. Well to be frank, that’s a problem with their attitude. Albeit that Irish might not be taught in a fun way, it is no truer for Irish than for the other compulsory subjects. Who can say they thoroughly enjoyed Maths class? English?

So it HAS to do with English? I've already explained why we do English, not that any such explanation is really necessary. If Irish is no less "fun" than any other subject, why does it have all the resentment?

You’re taking a completely wrong perspective by quoting that statistic. If kids were able to make decisions for their own benefit, there would be no need to have a law against under-18’s drinking, or under-17’s having sex. Children are not able to see the bigger picture, so if 58% of them say they’d prefer Irish to be optional, then that 58% are just those who I have previously mentioned as being skivers. Incidentally, 58% isn’t the most concrete of margins anyway, I’m actually surprised it wasn’t higher.

My God, you really have a terrible view of our young people, don't you? To a certain extent you're right in that some students do skive-off, but usually with good reason. Not everyone has high ambitions - some young people will just go into the family business or take an apprenticeship or whatever after school. So they know they don't need a whole bunch of LC points and don't look for them.

That said, I don't favor an "Irish or doss" choice becuse the uptake of the latter would be near-universal. I don't think anyone does.

This is one of those, “if I say it, then it’s true” posts. How about this:
Gaeilge: Broadens students’ knowledge of their culture and encourages individuality.

Compulsion and forced nationalism "encourage individuality." That's like one of those awful pictures that say "Always remember that you are an individual. Just like everyone else."

in the same way as we’re “forced” to learn Irish, we’re “forced” to do other things in life to which it might seem like there’s no salient point.

There is a salient point for everything else that is done in secondary school including the electives I'd like to see added. Again, if so many subjects "don't have a point" why is Irish singled out?

Standards are set by people to whom we entrust the setting of standards, and those people believe that Irish is a necessary part of our education. So, we choose to do Irish once we decide that it is an education we are after.

Yes, those same "standard setters" just advised Mary Hannafin that Drivers Ed in 2nd level (as in other countries) would be a bad idea. Your post is one of those "I'm right, you're wrong and the DOE will back me up" posts.

How do you like them apples SeanW?

I reject "them apples" completely. Asked if I have "ever been to America" the answer is yes - I lived there for some time, have gone there frequently and have/had a number of friends there as well as one side of my family. So I know what I'm talking about. And I know that language is a non-issue for Americans who happily speak the language of "the Oppressor." The U.S. has a strong identity, high levels of patriotism, their own menu of sports, music, food, culture, lifestyles and so on.

There are two reasons why people have split identities in America. One is where there is an obvious condition, such as colour of skin, recent arrival as an immigrant or being the family of 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. After enough generations pass, the gene-pool gets mixed up and one becomes "American" only (for white people at least). Again nothing to do with a language.

Just to clarify some points that have been muddled in the debate
1: I know what I'm taking about when I discuss the situation in the U.S.
2: I don't hate the Irish language, no more than I hate Swahili or Russian etc.
3: I do NOT and would never, support an "Irish or doss" choice being given to 2nd level students.
4: I believe that Irish should be optionalised in secondary school in an elective subject setup. Electives force the student to make decisions for themselves and often guide the student to topics which may have a purpose in their future and/or careers. I know this from personal experience.
5: I support the overhaul of the curriculum as proposed by many entities including Enda Kenny and Trevor Sargent.
6: I believe all this as a view of an education system that should exist to serve students with a modern, student focused curriculum rather than a throwback to the DeVelera days.
7: There are many other topics which should be available (but not mandatory) in the 2nd level curriculum, such as drivers ed and IT.
8: I support having adult Irish language courses for those who want them.

GreenHell · 12-12-2005 07:05AM

What strikes me as being strange about the whole Irish language thing is that many of us would love to know Irish. Right now I know zero, out of secondry school with a longtime now and I can't remember any of it but I do plan at some point coming back to the language and finding a more user friendly approach to learning it.

I think Irish should be optional, at the most apon entering 2nd level but at the very least after junior cert you should have a choice.

The bottom line here is the teaching off the language, the way its taught is piss poor really, I know a few fluent people and it really pisses them how poorly the language is thought. With all the millions that have been pumped into Irish its time for a reality check and a look at how we teach Irish.

GaryOR · 12-12-2005 01:01PM

Are you still fretting over colonialism? Do you long for a return to the days before there were English stores on the streets of our country?
I believe national identity transcends language, if you think it's weaker than that well that's your opinion I guess.

Nut: Return to the days before there were English stores, come on, just because I'm pro-Irish doesn't make me anti-English.
National identity involves all aspects of the culture so yes yeats and Joyce are part of Irish culture, but the corner stone of our culture is our language and thats irrelevant to its status or what percentage use it daily etc...

Nut I think you're a prime example of how the system has really failed the nation, how an Irish man can even justify a hate of Irish, or would perfer never to have anything to do with it. I assume you have lost out on a college course because of it or something like that..

But our disagreement seems to be only down to timing, that is the timing of a possible introduction of making Irish a choice subject. ony after say 15 -20 years after new teaching measures are put in place should it be considered (I'm probably repeating myself here) not now. one step at a time.

SeanW: you're a lost cause, I'd say you wake up every morning cursing the fact that your not in the states, god help ya.

GaryOR · 12-12-2005 01:04PM

Yes, those same "standard setters" just advised Mary Hannafin that Drivers Ed in 2nd level (as in other countries) would be a bad idea.

Thats why we have Transition year

hullaballoo · 12-12-2005 01:46PM

SeanW wrote:

Irish isn't spoken because people have decided not to use it. The Dutch language may have remained alive but Irish was largely dropped from our real culture a long time ago.

That statement has taken poll position for the most ridiculous, and factually inaccurate post I have ever seen on Boards. The Irish language was stifled by the English when they met resistance during the plantations. It was made illegal to speak Irish in Ireland, so people began to forget it. Not a single Irish person decided to drop it from popular use.

SeanW wrote:

Sorry, wrong again, at least one person on this thread has compared optional Irish to optional English and maths and another has said that "we shouldn't give the Brits the satisfaction" or something like that. It has everything to do with English.

Quotes please

SeanW wrote:

That a language is not used is a non-issue? That is a laugh.

Taking a statement out of context doesn’t show anything. If you read on, you’ll see that the reason it’s a non-issue is because if people could speak it, then they would. Thus it would be of some use.

SeanW wrote:

French is not mandatory in any Irish school but millions upon millions of people use it in their everyday lives. Anything you can say is good about learning "a" language could be applied to French.

Again you quote me out of context. The reason why you cannot argue Irish is any less useful then French is because no language can be called useless without the implication that you are calling ALL languages useless.

SeanW wrote:

I would have no objection to this as I consider language to be more of a barrier than anything else. I recognise however that this view is not common, and that "all of the other nuisance languages" are PRIMARY languages for large numbers of the world's population.

And you have the audacity to laugh at me, and call me an ideological bullsh!ter? Come on sir, say irony.

SeanW wrote:

If Irish is no less "fun" than any other subject, why does it have all the resentment?

You could probably answer that one yourself if you really thought about it. Irish is resented because of the misconception that it is a difficult subject, so really the problem is with the education system, as all of us have conceded. In addition, Irish is resented because students in schools do not understand how it is useful. They, as you do, fail to see the bigger picture: if we could all speak Irish, then we would. Sir, I defy you to find an adequate statistic that shows me that, even a simple majority (50% + 1) would not speak Irish were it something they could do.

SeanW wrote:

So it HAS to do with English? I've already explained why we do English, not that any such explanation is really necessary.

Yeah, you didn’t make a point there.

Compulsion and forced nationalism "encourage individuality." That's like one of those awful pictures that say "Always remember that you are an individual. Just like everyone else."

You didn’t make a point there either. Everybody is an individual, which means that in that one single regard, yes you are like everyone else. I think that might have been a cheap attempt at irony, but Alanis Morissette did a better job to be honest.

There is a salient point for everything else that is done in secondary school including the electives I'd like to see added.

You missed my point there again. There is a very hefty difference between “to which there is no salient point” and “to which it may seem there is no salient point”. Perhaps you might care to reread my post in full and then comment. It seems that you picked it apart sentence by sentence, without actually reading it.

Yes, those same "standard setters" just advised Mary Hannafin that Drivers Ed in 2nd level (as in other countries) would be a bad idea. Your post is one of those "I'm right, you're wrong and the DOE will back me up" posts.

Something tells me you’re slightly anti-establishment. I think the point is that with the structure of our second level education system, drivers ed should take a back seat to academics (pun intended). The fact that Irish people rightly value academia is not something that can be considered faulty reasoning. Our education system is renowned for being one of the best in the world with regard to academics. It then comes down to a philosophical point of whether or not academics are important to you. Personally I prefer to be broadly read than focussed on one particular area of expertise. It makes you more rounded to have a broader education.

I reject "them apples" completely

Come now, it’s undeniable that Americans cling to their ancestry to give them an idea of who they are. Your point seems to be that this will blur as time goes by and they will just be American. Well you’re right, that will happen, because in time, America will have its own culture, a hybrid of European and Asian culture. But for now, Americans are without their own identity, thus they harp back to where their family originated. This is an undeniable fact.

Peanut wrote:

Sorry but I Would prefer students with 'an attitude', no need for anarchy, just some faith in people to take control of their own lives would be nice.

What I mean, as you well know, is that students don’t have the ideal attitude to their education in general, not just Irish.

The rest of your post was ráiméis.

ishmael whale · 12-12-2005 03:11PM

hullaballoo wrote:

The Irish language was stifled by the English when they met resistance during the plantations. It was made illegal to speak Irish in Ireland, so people began to forget it. Not a single Irish person decided to drop it from popular use .

We need to catch up on current events. For a couple of generations considerable resources have been invested in trying to revive the language which have failed due to public indifference. It was deemed to be such a priority that at one stage science was dropped from the primary curriculum to give more time to teaching Irish. The issue still have the power to energise debate, such that while English and Maths are optional Leaving Cert subjects Irish, uniquely, is compulsory. This suggests that the traditional view that education takes second place to the status of Irish still holds sway in some places.

hullaballoo wrote:

no language can be called useless without the implication that you are calling ALL languages useless.

This is simply illogical.

hullaballoo wrote:

Our education system is renowned for being one of the best in the world with regard to academics.

This is simply inaccurate. Our universities are not highly rated internationally, and none is ranked in the global top 100. Of all our colleges, Trinity College manages best. It manages to get into the top 300.

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500list.htm

SeanW · 12-12-2005 03:20PM

quotes please

And quotes you shall have.

Xenophobic "fcuk the Brits" quote 1:

tweety111 wrote:

do we want to give d english d satifaction of gettin rid of irish completely..?

I'm sure the average English person could give a flying toss what we do with it. Maybe I'm just living in the wrong century?

"Why English" quote 1:

what dont we have english optional instead.. with learning irish we learn d traditions and culture... Tir gan teanga tir gan ainm..

"Why English" quote 2:

Cliste wrote:

why is english and math compulsary?

More from our enlightened friend

Cliste wrote:

I cannot see the logic behind things that we are currently studying.

no language can be called useless without the implication that you are calling ALL languages useless.

I say Sanskrit is useless. Also Latin. Does this mean I think ALL languages are useless? Your statement is totally illogical. But frankly, its what I've come to expect in this debate.

So you see? Throughout this debate, it's been a "fcuk English and Brits" and vauge aspiration type comments from your camp, as well as personal insults etc.

Come now, it’s undeniable that Americans cling to their ancestry to give them an idea of who they are. Your point seems to be that this will blur as time goes by and they will just be American. Well you’re right, that will happen, because in time, America will have its own culture, a hybrid of European and Asian culture. But for now, Americans are without their own identity, thus they harp back to where their family originated. This is an undeniable fact.

What a load of bull. Some people have already dropped their (X)-American viewpoint due to the passage of generations. And the US does have a culture, they invented the hot-dog, hamburger, they have their own sports, like American football and baseball, basketball etc, much the same as we have Gaeilic football and hurling. They also spawned several new genres of music including Country and Rap. Much of what is on our TV is American TV shows. Most Americans consider themselves American in part or full and are very patriotic, and the lack of a unique language is a non-issue for ALL the Americans I know. Where people consider themselves (X)-American it is down to concrete factors like skin colour or recent immigration, not specifically the lack of a language.

Of course you and Cliste would rather take cheap shots how "Americans all think Jesus popped over there," "have no culture or identity" etc. than accept the fact that you can have patriotism, a strong culture and complete identity without a language. I have a lot of personal experience to know this.

Personally I prefer to be broadly read than focussed on one particular area of expertise. It makes you more rounded to have a broader education.

By the time one gets their Junior Cert results, many people will already have a vision for their future. That's why Junior Cert is one opportune time to make Irish optional, because at that point young people will ask themselves the hard questions about "where am I going?" "what field of work would I like to enter?" "what are my capabilites.

This is perfect because these questions would - in a student focused educaton system - be met with opportunities to study things that facilitate those hopes and dreams, rather than some keyboard warriors view of what their culture and life should entail.

If Irish were hypothetically speaking put into an elective list with drivers ed, and world culture, some students would decide "I'm going to be a patriotic young Irishman/woman and learn more Gaeilge" others would decide "when I turn 17, I'm going get behind the wheel of a deadly weapon, and I want to know what the hell I'm doing" and choose drivers ed. others would say "I want to broaden my mind and perhaps travel, or just have something that looks smart on my LC, so a culture course is for me." I envisage a 3-way split of student uptake in this situation.

Of course all of this is moot becuase I don't hate the Irish language and I 100% support anyone who wants to use it or learn it being able to do so.If you love it and want it in your personal life I support you all the way. Is it too much therefore, for a person who doesn't want it rammed down their throats not to have such?

As Ishmael Whale and others have said, remove the element of compulsion and Irish can be normally related to as a language rather than a government/education imposition. Then let those who share your love of the language pursue it to their hearts content.

SeanW · 12-12-2005 03:34PM

Ishmael Whale wrote:

Originally Posted by hullaballoo
Our education system is renowned for being one of the best in the world with regard to academics.

This is simply inaccurate. Our universities are not highly rated internationally, and none is ranked in the global top 100. Of all our colleges, Trinity College manages best. It manages to get into the top 300.

And I know this from personal experience too, as I explained earlier. The education system needs a major overhaul. Start by firing all the muppets that live in DeVelera's fantasy world that advise their Minister not to have any kind of drivers ed in school. Then get rid of the ridiculous throwbacks to the past, like Religion class and compulsory Irish. Build up economies of scale where needed/possible and have a wide variety of elective subjects as well as overhauled core academia.

JustCoz · 12-12-2005 04:15PM

Calm down Sean W or you will give yourself a heart attack! I'm not really bothered going through your posts and picking out the bits I don't agree with, I'll just say this. Most people are making valid points on this forum but the whole "you just hate the English" lark is innaccurate. We just want to have our own identity. As Hullaballoo rightly pointed out, we are of Celtic descent and not Britannic and it is fair enough that we want to be recognised as such. Having our own language adds to our identity, how can you say it doesn't?

You repeatedly say that you don't hate the Irish language and maybe that's true but your insults and undermining of it up til now have shot that argument in the foot.
The reason that this is such a sensitive topic is because alot of time effort and money has been put into the revival of the Irish language and Enda kenny's proposal, were it to happen, would throw all of this out the window. As previously mentioned, it's often only in the last two years of school that people begin to love the language because they can begin to express themselves in essays and put it into practical use through oral work. To take this away from students would be foolish and inconsistent with what the government have been trying to do for the language up until now

JustCoz · 12-12-2005 04:43PM

nesf wrote:

An Honours Irish student might struggle with great difficulty to speak even briefly in the language yet do quite well in the written exam. Surely this is a sign that we need to seperate the issues of speaking and studying the language?

I couldn't agree more. I don't think that anyone on my side of the argument would dispute this point. A complete overhaul of the system is required. It's a disgrace that people can learn Irish for 14yrs and not be able to string a sentence together.

People seem to be very confused and overly defensive on even the hint of the idea that Irish mightn't be suitable to be a compulsory subject for the leaving. It is not an undermining of the language to say that it should be optional for the leaving.

No thats not it, everyone is entitled to their opinion and if that's your point of view, fair enough. I'm speaking about the comments that are just downright insulting to people like me who value the language as much as I do. It's uncalled for.

ishmael whale · 12-12-2005 05:33PM

JustCoz wrote:

Having our own language adds to our identity, how can you say it doesn't?

If you reflect, I think you’ll appreciate the very existence of this question raises an underlying problem. Is ‘Irish identity’ something to do with what Irish people are or do, or is it a theoretical formula that someone establishes to which we are expected to conform?

At present Irish simply isn’t a major part of the lives of most Irish people. To suggest it should become a part of their lives, so it can be deemed part of their identity, raises all kinds of issues to do with who has the right to pronounce on such matters.

JustCoz wrote:

The reason that this is such a sensitive topic is because alot of time effort and money has been put into the revival of the Irish language and Enda kenny's proposal, were it to happen, would throw all of this out the window.

I’m not sure this really reflects the reality of the situation. The resources are already wasted, and I don’t think anyone is really contesting that. The division is between people who want to abolish compulsion and those who want to retain it. There seems to be a general consensus that, either way, the teaching of Irish needs a complete change of approach as currently resources are achieving very little.

Announcing an early date when compulsion will end (as in two or three years) would provide the necessary incentive for the Irish language teaching establishment to embrace change. Otherwise, they’ll just go back to sleep weaving some illusion that they are actually achieving something.

nesf · 12-12-2005 06:39PM

JustCoz wrote:

I couldn't agree more. I don't think that anyone on my side of the argument would dispute this point. A complete overhaul of the system is required. It's a disgrace that people can learn Irish for 14yrs and not be able to string a sentence together.

Yes, but people seem to think that "changing the system" will improve the situation in the short term. It won't. The problems with teaching Irish start at primary level in this country. One's ability to speak the language can be crippled by going to the "wrong" primary school. Irish at second level assumes that the student has the basics. This is not the case for quite a few students. We need to enact change at primary level, but this, as I've said before on this thread, will only show results in 10-15 years time.

Basically, saying that we should change the system does nothing to nullify the validity of making Irish optional. Perhaps in 10-15 years time it could be made compulsory again but at the moment there aren't many reasons to support keeping it compulsory for the Leaving. So long as it's compulsory until the Junior cert then everyone will have studied the language for many years. That is more than just a nod in the language's direction tbh.

JustCoz wrote:

No thats not it, everyone is entitled to their opinion and if that's your point of view, fair enough. I'm speaking about the comments that are just downright insulting to people like me who value the language as much as I do. It's uncalled for.

I agree, some of the posts in this thread have been quite impolite and inconsiderate. On both sides. That does not mean that we should succumb to these pointless, "red top", tabloid, "as a mother" arguments.

hullaballoo · 12-12-2005 07:01PM

Ishmael whale wrote:

This is simply inaccurate. Our universities are not highly rated internationally, and none is ranked in the global top 100. Of all our colleges, Trinity College manages best. It manages to get into the top 300.

Think again. We are not discussing third level education in Ireland. There are a great many schools in Ireland that are in high demand on an international front: St Andrew’s in Booterstown, St Gerard’s in Bray, St Michael’s, Blackrock College, St Columba’s, Clongowe’s etc.

This is simply illogical

Actually, it is perfectly logical. If you call any one language useless, you are doing so on the grounds that there is no need for it. Why would there be no need for it? The answer is that there are other ways to communicate, other languages ie English in this case. Your line of “logic” would mean that there is also no need for English, because there is a suitable substitute, say, French. But there is no need for French, because Italian will suffice and so on. You see, by condemning Irish as you are, you are defeating the whole purpose of different languages.

We need to catch up on current events. For a couple of generations considerable resources have been invested in trying to revive the language which have failed due to public indifference.

Where did you get that little factoid? It isn’t in the least bit true, at no stage has the Irish public ever shown indifference to the Irish language.

SeanW wrote:

I say Sanskrit is useless. Also Latin.

Neither Sanskrit nor Latin are useless. Sanskrit is key in historical and archaeological researches, which too are tools to help us understand ourselves. Latin is the basis for nearly every language between here and the middle-east, and learning it gives people a huge insight into their own languages. I think it’s safe to say that any scholar worth his salt would pooh-pooh that reckless statement. You are quite adequately insulting yourself here, which saves me the bother.

Incidentally, you also misquoted Cliste in your last post. It’s getting annoying.

I really can’t believe you said that about Latin and Sanskrit, that was careless.

ishmael whale · 13-12-2005 11:35AM

hullaballoo wrote:

We are not discussing third level education in Ireland.

Can I point out that you are actually the one who suggested that our academics were world renowned, and now seem to be pulling back in the face of the evidence I have provided that this is not the case?

For what its worth, OECD surveys show our second level educational standards are mediocre. http://www.erc.ie/pisa/P03SummaryReport.pdf
The PISA reports us as coming 17 place out of 29 OECD countries on maths, 6 out of 29 on reading literacy 13 out of 29 on science and 18 out of 29 for problem solving. Only on reading literacy could we feel this amounts to a good score. Incidently, anticipating the red herring usually introduced at this point, the high score on reading can hardly be attributed to the fact of compulsory Irish when you consider the comment of the Irish language commissioner that

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=49 DESPITE spending 13 years learning Irish, at an overall cost of €500m a year, many of our school-leavers are not attaining even a basic fluency in the language.

If you plan a retreat into the primary sector, you might consider that Ireland is actually deciding not to participate in the usual international surveys of educational attainment for fear of what they would reveal. There have been reports of an internal Department of Education assessment saying primary standards are not good and part of the reason is the amount of time spent failing to teach students Irish.

hullaballoo wrote:

Actually, it is perfectly logical.

You are making the very basic logic error of confusing ‘all’ with ‘some’, and assigning a uniform meaning to ‘use’. It is simply a fact that a person will find that competence in French will enable them to communicate with a considerable amount of people that don’t have English. Ditto Italian. However, learning to speak Miriam Mir will only enable you to speak to a few hundred people on the Torres Straits Islands. That’s not to say that learning Miriam Mir might not be interesting, or worth doing for the pure pursuit of knowledge. But it is simply a fact that many people, given the choice, would choose to do French first.

hullaballoo wrote:

Where did you get that little factoid? It isn’t in the least bit true, at no stage has the Irish public ever shown indifference to the Irish language.

We have a frightening ability in this country to react to unpalatable facts by pretending they don’t exist. The Irish people have voted with their feet. Despite the investment of billions over a couple of generations the Irish people have simply refused to adopt it as their language.

hullaballoo · 13-12-2005 03:27PM

Ishmael Whale wrote:

We have a frightening ability in this country to react to unpalatable facts by pretending they don’t exist. The Irish people have voted with their feet. Despite the investment of billions over a couple of generations the Irish people have simply refused to adopt it as their language.

Whilst I admire your posting, your eye for factual information (generally) and the resourcefulness of your responses, you cannot continue this line of argument without grounding it somehow. What investment? How does this investment compare to investments in other subjects? What makes you believe that the public are unwilling to learn Irish?

You say "the Irish people have simply refused to adopt [Irish] as their language". I must say in all honesty that I see very little evidence of this; the reason for the inability of Ireland to converse in Irish seems to me to be down to the poor way in which it is taught, not because of an unwillingness by the masses to have it as a conversational language.

I concede that the standards of education in this country are in reality abysmal, and that the OECD reports, inter alia, reflect this. However, there is a prevalant in other countries that Irish people are highly educated. It is easy to see how this comes into being. It comes down to the fact that more Irish people are educated per population than in other countries due to free secondary and tertiary education, so we thus have a skilled workforce.

In other words, people who perceive that the Irish education system is above average are misled. That said, my point still holds true; Irish people are proud of academia.

You are making the very basic logic error of confusing ‘all’ with ‘some’, and assigning a uniform meaning to ‘use’.

I took the time to carefully read your posts. Please return the favour, and do not insult my intellect.

ishmael whale · 13-12-2005 04:43PM

hullaballoo wrote:

How does this investment compare to investments in other subjects?

According to the link below, we spend about 5,000 million on education, once you cut out the cost of the Department itself. This means Irish accounts for about 10% of all resources.
http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/statistics02-03_b.pdf

hullaballoo wrote:

What makes you believe that the public are unwilling to learn Irish?

Simply the fact that they aren’t speaking it, despite an awful lot of opportunity dating back to the foundation of the State (and even beyond, if you want to include voluntary efforts.)

hullaballoo wrote:

In other words, people who perceive that the Irish education system is above average are misled. That said, my point still holds true; Irish people are proud of academia.

I’m finding this a little hard to follow. Are you effectively saying that Irish people are deluded, because they believe the educational system is brilliant? (I’m not necessarily disagreeing, I’m just trying to find out where you are coming from.)

hullaballoo wrote:

I took the time to carefully read your posts. Please return the favour, and do not insult my intellect.

I read your post. I’m not setting out with an intention to insult, but you are not presenting a view that stands up to logic. Someone might choose to study a language because they think it might be useful abroad, say French, or because of the pursuit of pure knowledge, such as Miriam Mir, or as an expression of their idea of national identity, which seems to be what motivates many people to study Irish. None of this is reflected in your apparent suggestion that all languages are uniform. Miriam Mir would presumably be of less ‘use’ to someone seeking a language that would be useful abroad.

hullaballoo · 13-12-2005 06:07PM

This is moving slightly off-topic, but;

Ishmael Whale wrote:

I’m finding this a little hard to follow. Are you effectively saying that Irish people are deluded, because they believe the educational system is brilliant? (I’m not necessarily disagreeing, I’m just trying to find out where you are coming from.)

I apologise. I was merely agreeing with you, the Irish educational system is not great, and this has recently been recognised in the OECD report. It is true, however, that the number of "educated" people in Ireland compares strongly to that of other nations. Thus, on an international level, Ireland is considered a well-educated country. As a result of this, Irish academics pride themselves, perhaps in a way which is not merited, as learnèd people.

nesf · 13-12-2005 07:59PM

hullaballoo wrote:

As a result of this, Irish academics pride themselves, perhaps in a way which is not merited, as learnèd people.

Ahh, but an education system does not an academic make.

In this country you do have very good and affordable access to third level education. That in itself is a reason to pride ourselves on the level of education in this country. There are many many issues with our system but at least third level education of a good standard is accessible to the vast majority of the populace. Something that is not true of many other developed countries.

SeanW · 13-12-2005 09:52PM

I really can’t believe you said that about Latin and Sanskrit, that was careless.

Ok, so they're not totally useless to everyone.

Sanksrit may be useful to archaeologiests. But to the average person, to me, to Joe Bloggs on the bus, it has no use not only in everyday life but ever. Its useless to most people. Irish is similar, but not to the same extent. The former does not have enough use to mandate compulsory education, the latter for some reason does.

I stand over what I've said, you said no-one can question any language useless without saying all languages are useless because there's an alternative. My point is that not every language is the same, and some languages are more useful than others. Languages that are likely not to have a use, should not be mandatory. If your rousing defense of Sanksrit and Latin were to hold water, then surely another 1500 student hours would have to be spent on them?

Regarding the insults, they've been going both ways for some time, so don't play the innocent. As a person who believes strongly in "live and let live" I think very badly of those who consider themselves superior to others and want to force their views on others, and impose a view of one's identity on people who don't hold it.
People like that make me sick. In addition to this, your of view our young people is very poor, way worse than is justified. So I stand over everything I've said.

hullaballoo · 13-12-2005 11:07PM

SeanW wrote:

In addition to this, your of view our young people is very poor, way worse than is justified. So I stand over everything I've said.

YOUR opinion. I'm 21. I stand over everything I said too. I'll agree to disagree.

SeanW · 18-12-2005 11:16AM

I just turned 23. And I know that if a young person isn't actively involved in their education by the time they're in 5th year, they're not going to do very well in their exams. Whether that means they won't do well in life or not is another matter.

As for Drivers. Ed. taking a "back seat" to "academia" (a.k.a. shelving life saving-and-enriching education in favour of a historical language on life support) well, next time some poor unfortunate young person ends up in pieces on a roadside, you can go tell their family how great it was they were learning Irish instead of drivers ed since you agree with both decisions so strongly?

Perhaps you can tell me why hurting our children to keep the language in a Terry Schaivo style state for the past 80 years and indefinately into the future is a great idea.

Then you can tell us why few or no others nation on Earth are maintaining multilingualism purely for the sake of it.

Then you can tell us why we shouldn't worry that you have to go to college here in Ireland to learn things you can learn easily in a U.S. high school (a system for which you clearly have much contempt).

I highly doubt that you can.

nesf · 18-12-2005 05:03PM

Sean W. it's a very big stretch to blame road accidents, in general, to a lack of a driver's ed.

And, the comparisson to US high school is pointless. It's far less regulated than here where everything is prescribed for schools outside of Transition Year.

JustCoz · 18-12-2005 05:50PM

SeanW wrote:

well, next time some poor unfortunate young person ends up in pieces on a roadside, you can go tell their family how great it was they were learning Irish instead of drivers ed since you agree with both decisions so strongly?

Thats a ridiculous leap. Really ridiculous. Thats what transition year is for plus most of these accidents are to do with drinking and driving so that comment is totally off-topic.

Then you can tell us why we shouldn't worry that you have to go to college here in Ireland to learn things you can learn easily in a U.S. high school (a system for which you clearly have much contempt).

What does this have to do with anything? Why the constant comparison to the US, if any comparisons are to be made, ones within the EU would be far more relevant. Who said anything about having contempt for their system? The two are just radically different that's all.

Diorraing · 19-12-2005 02:18AM

SeanW wrote:

Ok, so they're not totally useless to everyone.

Sanksrit may be useful to archaeologiests. But to the average person, to me, to Joe Bloggs on the bus, it has no use not only in everyday life but ever. Its useless to most people. Irish is similar, but not to the same extent. The former does not have enough use to mandate compulsory education, the latter for some reason does.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that virtually nobody uses post Junior cert maths or English either? I dont know anyone who uses vectors, or trigonomotery. If you get rid of compulsory Irish, fine but by your own logic you have to get rid of compulsory maths and english.
BTW thats a lovely Irish name you have

SeanW · 19-12-2005 11:22AM

Who said anything about having contempt for their system? The two are just radically different that's all.

Withdrawn. I had confused you and hullaballo with Cliste, who had started the debate with a major anti-American slant. My apologies for this error.

The point I was making re: Irish vs. Drivers Ed. is that we don't have a problem with identity, but we have a major one regarding road safety. The education system was designed in the 1930s when DeVelera thought we'd all be ultra-traditionalists who spoke Gaeilge, bowed down before the nearest priest, and lived in deathly fear of those horrible, evil Brits. We also didn't have many cars back then.

Times have changed and we no longer define self-sufficiency as not having any kind of links with the outside world except the boat to Britian or America. We've got a lot of new money and most people/families now have cars. Also - and this is the key point - despite 80 years of compulsory Irish education and numerous government initiatives have achieved nothing and the people have spoken, in English. However nothing has changed in government, particularly in Education, except more revisions to the curriculum to add more Irish as IW pointed out.

The Irish language doesn't define us as a people. No more than Leprechauns, Pots of gold at the end of the rainbow, Dancing at the crossroads, those red-light religious pictures that everyone used to have in their hallways ... some things have just passed their sell-by date and compulsive Irish is one of them.

We don't have to be forced to go to GAA games, listen to Trad music, drink Guinness, eat Taytos, form a "Green Army" to support the national soccer team in away games, and those of us who choose to make the Irish language a part of their lives do so of their own volition, like the ONE person I know, who listens to commentary of GAA matches in Irish on the radio. And in these modern times, our governemnt doesn't have to force both nationals and foreigners alike to listen modern Irish musicians such as Bono, U2, Enya, Phil Lynott, Sinead O'Connor, the Pogues, The Corrs and so on.

What does compulsory Irish achieve when almost no-one speaks it and we have such a strong identity and traditions in other areas?

It acheives nothing because firstly no-one uses it, and secondly we have a very very strong identity and a extremely strong musical and artistic tradition which survives strongly to this day, but does NOT depend on the Irish language to surive. Our culture and traditions are so strong that the lack of a language is a non-issue.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that virtually nobody uses post Junior Cert ...

My whole point, the 2nd level education system needs an overhaul. Preferably with a new set of civil servants or (shudder) consultants.

What we need IMO going into the future is more technologies, more sciences, more business, drivers ed, foreign languages, musical studies and arts. A varied student focused curriculum, with a generous helping of electives. Things like Irish should be made elective (where I have no doubt that some students would decide to take it) and Religion abolished (2005 and we still have Religious Education in school, WTF?). A complete review is required.

BTW thats a lovely Irish name you have

Thanks. I'm happy to have it.

GaryOR · 19-12-2005 02:36PM

The Irish language doesn't define us as a people. No more than Leprechauns, Pots of gold at the end of the rainbow, Dancing at the crossroads, those red-light religious pictures that everyone used to have in their hallways ... some things have just passed their sell-by date and compulsive Irish is one of them.

The Irish Language will always define us as a people, long after me and you have passed on (passed sell-by date)...

The entire debate about compulsive Irish was that it would improve its position in Irish society and culture...
i think only a moron would argue at this stage that it would improve it in any way...

And anyone who would argue in its favours simply sees this as one step towards its complete removal and death

out of interest you might want to read this article from the Irish Times: http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=825&viewby=date

Should Irish be optional after Junior Cert?

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