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The practical side of this...

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2

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    #32
    John
    Registered Users Posts: 12,135 ✭✭✭✭John


    Isn't that what I said earlier?


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    #33
    Doctor J
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,848 ✭✭✭✭Doctor J


    Isn't it what I said initially? :p


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    #34
    John
    Registered Users Posts: 12,135 ✭✭✭✭John


    Maybe there's an echo in here


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    #35
    krd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    Doctor J wrote: »
    Copyright ownership

    Intellectual property - do participants agree to their work being open?


    Why do people worry so much about copyright -- this is bum idol -- not pop idol


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    #36
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    I have NO idea what this thread is about!:confused:


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    #37
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    Paul man Im really with you here. Not very clear,


    I take it your talking about collabs! Its just a lot of guys here are not usually here so im all over the place! Thats a good thing though!

    So if its collabs its easy enough to set standards and get things organized but there has to be a clear leader. I dont mind playing my part as mod in projects regardless of if im involved or not.


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    #38
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    Ah yes .... MP3s aren't an option as they won't sync to tempo right


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    #39
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,084 ✭✭✭fitz


    This forum started out as a Production/Collaboration board if I remember correctly, then evolved into Music Production. This is a 2 year old thread that krd decided to bring back to life. Can't see why mind you.


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    #40
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    fitz wrote: »
    This forum started out as a Production/Collaboration board if I remember correctly, the evolved into Music Production. This is a 2 year old thread that krd decided to bring back to life. Can't see why mind you.

    Aha! Now it makes sense ........ sort of


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    #41
    jimi_t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    Ah yes .... MP3s aren't an option as they won't sync to tempo right

    Come again? Audio is audio is audio.


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    #42
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    jimi_t wrote: »
    Come again? Audio is audio is audio.

    Not So!

    If you convert a Wav that's absolutley steady tempo wise, say done with a drum machine , to Mp3 and run it with the original you'll find minor tempo flucutations.

    If you drop it into Ableton Live and do the 'Warp' thing you'll see a ton of variation.

    I guess it's only to be expected with MP3s as their creation involves just 'throwing' away some of the raw data.


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    #43
    jimi_t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    If you convert a Wav that's absolutley steady tempo wise, say done with a drum machine , to Mp3 and run it with the original you'll find minor tempo flucutations.

    Never found that myself - and I do that on a weekly basis. Any info to back that up? There might be a perceived flux due to the 'smearing' of the hats at lower bit-rates, but I'd challenge you to be able to spot the difference between two filtered rhythmn sections - one WAV one 256 mp3 - playing on consumer level equipment.

    Even if that was the case, you get that with Vinyl and that has never stopped people tempo-syncing them :rolleyes:
    If you drop it into Ableton Live and do the 'Warp' thing you'll see a ton of variation.

    Different kettle of fish altogether - nothing to do with the mp3 standard.
    I guess it's only to be expected with MP3s as their creation involves just 'throwing' away some of the raw data.

    True, but not in the same way you're implying and, barring the ID3 tags, not in any way that would make any impact on the tempo.


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    #44
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    Not So!

    If you convert a Wav that's absolutley steady tempo wise, say done with a drum machine , to Mp3 and run it with the original you'll find minor tempo flucutations.

    If you drop it into Ableton Live and do the 'Warp' thing you'll see a ton of variation.

    I guess it's only to be expected with MP3s as their creation involves just 'throwing' away some of the raw data.

    Interesting.....esplain.......


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    #45
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    sei046 wrote: »
    Interesting.....esplain.......

    I just found it on a couple of times when I was mucking about with doing Mash Ups, so it's a more casual observation!


    When I dropped a steady wav into warp in Live and set the right tempo it didn't make any 'warp' marks i.e. pulling it into tempo wheras the MP3 version did.

    If in the context of sharing tracks, say the L + R of overhead as 2 independent MP3 tracks any variation would cause phasing which may not be desireable.

    I don't expect one would notice any difference on a single vocal track for example.

    It happened to me a couple of times , and I did mention it to our very own tweeky here, who had found the same.


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    #46
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    Another day in the classroom!


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    #47
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    sei046 wrote: »
    Another day in the classroom!

    As I say I've not gone into it in huge detail but when I had those exeperiences and had the same thing happen to someone else I just presumed it to be the case.


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    #48
    cornbb
    Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    I dunno if I agree with you Paul. I know an MP3 encoding of an uncompressed recording won't be sample-accurate but I'm fairly certain the encoding process doesn't interfere with audio in the time domain. Again it won't be sample-accurate, but it shouldn't be anything the ears would pick up... maybe you were dealing with some sort of dodgy codec that added/removed something at the beginning of the audio file?


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    #49
    jimi_t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    cornbb wrote: »
    I dunno if I agree with you Paul. I know an MP3 encoding of an uncompressed recording won't be sample-accurate but I'm fairly certain the encoding process doesn't interfere with audio in the time domain. Again it won't be sample-accurate, but it shouldn't be anything the ears would pick up... maybe you were dealing with some sort of dodgy codec that added/removed something at the beginning of the audio file?

    Exactly my thoughts. You kinda side stepped the argument to go on about phasing Paul :P

    Get a CD. Rip a track to WAV and to high bitrate MP3. Burn the resultant files to a separate CD each. Play side by side. If you find a tempo fault I'd be absolutely shocked.


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    #50
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    jimi_t wrote: »
    Exactly my thoughts. You kinda side stepped the argument to go on about phasing Paul :P

    Get a CD. Rip a track to WAV and to high bitrate MP3. Burn the resultant files to a separate CD each. Play side by side. If you find a tempo fault I'd be absolutely shocked.

    Which argument would this be now?


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    #51
    jimi_t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    sei046 wrote: »
    Which argument would this be now?

    The argument regarding the mp3 format being intrinsically flawed as regards maintaining the tempo of the original medium. You know, the one about 7 posts up? No need to get snarky like.


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    #52
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    jimi_t wrote: »
    Get a CD. Rip a track to WAV and to high bitrate MP3. Burn the resultant files to a separate CD each. Play side by side. If you find a tempo fault I'd be absolutely shocked.

    That's how I discovered it initially!


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    #53
    sei046
    Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭sei046


    Lol man im hardly snarky! Im just saying it hardly seems like an argument!


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    #54
    cornbb
    Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    Don't think sei was being snarky, but anyways... ;)
    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    That's how I discovered it initially!

    But this was when you were warping clips in Ableton Live right? The warping algorithms must treat mp3/wave audio differently or something. If you dropped the 2 clips into a "traditional" sequencer I'm sure they would sync exactly. You might get phasing alright, but thats something you might get with comparing 2 WAV clips anyway and is nothing to do with the tempos...


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    #55
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    jimi_t wrote: »
    Exactly my thoughts. You kinda side stepped the argument to go on about phasing Paul :P

    Get a CD. Rip a track to WAV and to high bitrate MP3. Burn the resultant files to a separate CD each. Play side by side. If you find a tempo fault I'd be absolutely shocked.

    A better test might be grab your CD track and load it into a DAW. Then convert it to MP3 and put it in the daw, both running from zero.

    If there's phasing or flanging then something has changed in the time domain namely the MP3.

    Try it!

    In fairness to you I chose my words wrong in describing it as a Tempo change as running the MP3 by itself you obviously won't notice it.

    But enough about I think, you think - Try it and let me know how you get on!


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    #56
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    sei046 wrote: »
    Lol man im hardly snarky! Im just saying it hardly seems like an argument!

    true, but proving it to yourself is!


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    #57
    cornbb
    Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    If there's phasing or flanging then something has changed in the time domain namely the MP3.

    Ah! But phasing is a different problem. If you ripped the CD to, for example, AIFF and WAV and played those 2 files side by side you might still get phasing. Nothing inherent to MP3. Different encoding algorithms might strip a few samples of silence from the beginning. Nothing that can't be fixed by nudging one of the files a few samples forwards or backwards.


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    #58
    jimi_t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    That's how I discovered it initially!

    I dunno - on your first post I did a command-line LAME encode at the highest settings (not VBR) and then did a double CD deck play triggered by MIDI. Being a lot younger than you and not having worked in the industry/gigged to your extent my hearing is considerably better - and I've 14 odd years of theory/classical training... I mean you clearly know a lot more than me, but its fairly fecking obvious to anyone when something goes out of phase - nevermind someone who DJs :)

    I reckon that there's some weak link - either in your DAW, how you're compressing it or how you're burning it. Surely one of the thousands upon thousands of people who DJ using a combination of CD, Vinyl and MP3 would have spotted the problem? A cursory google and wikipedia comes up with nothing, but I'd be happy to be corrected


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    #59
    jimi_t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    cornbb wrote: »
    Ah! But phasing is a different problem. If you ripped the CD to, for example, AIFF and WAV and played those 2 files side by side you might still get phasing. Nothing inherent to MP3. Different encoding algorithms might strip a few samples of silence from the beginning. Nothing that can't be fixed by nudging one of the files a few samples forwards or backwards.

    Exactly. If its coded and burnt properly (down to the Millisecond) it just shouldn't happen (also, have both tracks triggered automatically not by hand!)


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    #60
    jimi_t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    A better test might be grab your CD track and load it into a DAW. Then convert it to MP3 and put it in the daw, both running from zero.

    When you 'load' them into DAWs, they're not in their original format AFAIK - not to mention the fact that there's error compensation and caching and all that other jazz. It's honestly something I'm not completely au fait with, but I think the best way of doing it is to just burn them to optical media and compare them with your ears. The waveforms are going to be significantly different pre and post-compression anyways so you can't really compare like with like.


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    #61
    cornbb
    Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    A weak link does sound like a viable cause. Not all encoding algorithms are created equal. Take iTunes for example. "Sound Enhancer" my arse!


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