Geologists get high-speed look at future transportation

Metrobest

The question is, how could Ireland compete with Rotterdam and Antwerpen: ports which are strategically-located for distribution to the bulk of Europe's population. We would need high-speed rail links from Dublin-London and Central Europe and given the size of the Irish market compared to even Scandanavia, the international investment required would for such a project would be unlikely to materialise. Ireland has its hands full just building two metros and an interconnector; I think a tunnel under the Irish Sea might be stretching ourselves slightly!

embraer170

The high speed rail line that will allow you to travel from Paris to Barcelona in two hours, for example,

Maybe I am missing something but I am not aware of any such project. Two hours doesn't get you far beyond Lyon (HSR all the way).

Maskhadov

Agreed, the Tuskar tunnel couldnt begin construction until T21 was finished in 2016 since this is ireland.

However work could begin on the project immediately after T21. Post T21 the country would be well experienced in digging holes in built up areas. The tunnel that doesnt affect people in the same way Metro will and there would be little public objections.

The french pointed out that its only a hole, there isnt a whole pile to do in terms of design. The engineering techniques are well established and the finance would mostly come from banks with citizens & customers paying back once the tunnel is open. Its just a political decision.

England would have to build a HSR over to the tunnel (maybe via cardiff ?) and we would have to build our own HSR network on irish soil. There is a few diagrams on Englands HSR network here

http://www.iei.ie/Publications/GetPublicationDetails.pasp?PublicationID=69&Module=Papers&txt_freetext=&RecordsPerPage=1000&PageNumber=1&MenuID=24

Capt'n Midnight

Does anyone have values/volumes for Irish imports/exports to UK/Europe for goods that excludes things like software and bulk cargo like Oil / Ore.

Or figures on the type of traffic carried in the chunnel vs. traffic that still goes across La Manche in ships. How much cargo goes from Hull instead of the faster? route through France/Belgium/Holland/Germany Motorways ?

BTW: Is it Belgium that has lights on every Km of motorway ?

Victor

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Does anyone have values/volumes for Irish imports/exports to UK/Europe for goods that excludes things like software and bulk cargo like Oil / Ore.

I'm sure there are figures out there but there is a severe imbalence with exports being high value low bulk and imports
low-medium value and high bulk. One of the major factors driving off-shore recycling is the cheap price of containers going Irelan - Far East that would otherwise be empty.

Or figures on the type of traffic carried in the chunnel vs. traffic that still goes across La Manche in ships. How much cargo goes from Hull instead of the faster? route through France/Belgium/Holland/Germany Motorways ?

The tunnel hit Dover-Calais hardest, with a substantial reduction in the number of ferry crossings. However to my knowledge it hasn't had a severe affect on ports north of London. Southhampton and other south coast ports, while hit, still kept a lot of business that would have otherwise had to had to negotiate the M25 and the longer route (to Western France and Spain).

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

BTW: Is it Belgium that has lights on every Km of motorway ?

I'm not sure if it's 100%, but yes it is high.

Maskhadov

BTW: Is it Belgium that has lights on every Km of motorway ?

Is that good for the environment ?? What has it to do with us ?

P11 should have investigated a HSR network in Ireland post T21 along with extensively investigating the Tuskar tunnel.

Capt'n Midnight

Maskhadov wrote:

Is that good for the environment ?? What has it to do with us ?

That's why there was a BTW:

As for the environment - crashed cars use a lot of CO2 if they burn or if you have to make a replacement.

Gotthard Base Tunnel http://www.siteselection.com/issues/2005/jan/p11/

costs on the Gothard tunnel have gone up 31% so far and they have just passed half way. Also even thought it's 57Km , it's dry and they have two access points at the villages of Sedrun and Faldo at about 1/3 the way in from each end.

Other projected tunnels http://www.tunnelbuilder.com/recordbreakers/theatre.htm

Immersed Tube to Ireland - best discussed over a Guinness
Lunatic idea for a tunnel on the floor of the Irish Sea was floated in 1998 at a time when Ryanair was offering flights from London to Belfast at £29 for two seats.

How sucessful financially is the Sei-Kan tunnel ?

Maskhadov

Tunnels always have cost over runs. I dont know what the international figure is, but if the tuskar tunnel went ahead the over runs would be on an international scale as opposed to the irish levels. €11bn is the inital estimate, if it were 30% more then it would still be ok.

Ryanair cant ship 40 foot containers at high speed. Its only good for passengers. Rail is one of the best methods to ship heavy freight and will continue to do so.

Is the Gothard tunnel the one that is running through the alps ?? well no wonder its gone over budget. That project is one of the biggest in the world. I seen it in discovery and it was awesome. There were so many different kinds of rock that it was astonding. They had to stop, use explosives then start again, reach another rock type, then change the cutting type to suit that then start again. The Alps is a unique region.

I think the Channel Chunnel would be a better comparison for us. 4 tunnelling machines (each having to do 48km) and the project being underground.

TBH i would like to see the geologists report on the rock underneath St.Georges channel from ireland to wales. If it were all one (or mainly one) kind of rock the project would be relatively straightforward

Maskhadov

Irish independent : -

TUNNEL VISION
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1524463&issue_id=13401

Damian Corless on the engineers who dream of an incredible 60-kilometre undersea rail link to Britain

Ireland 2005. Sometimes it seems like the whole country is running to stand still. Everyone is on the move but there's gridlock at every turn. A current joke is that the bumper-to-bumper M50 ring road is the only place around the capital where there's free parking (so long as you can dodge the hated toll plaza).

This week the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland (CCI) published the results of a survey of business chiefs on transport issues. It told us what everyone already knew - that the economy is losing a fortune every day in congestion, delayed deliveries and knock-on lost sales.

Published at a time when the bitter Irish Ferries dispute has highlighted the segregation of this offshore island from the European landmass, the CCI study drew attention to the kernel of a cunning plan. It reported that three out of four business people canvassed feel that our planners should start preparing the way for an undersea rail link to Britain which would speed freight and passengers to the continent.

The Tuskar Tunnel, which would stretch 60km from Tuskar Rock in Wexford to Pembrokeshire in Wales, was first mooted last year by the Irish Academy of Engineering in an imaginative document called A Vision Of Transport In Ireland In 2050.

According to Patrick Lynch, the Academy's President: "We're like the upper house of the Institute of Engineers. While they deal with the tasks of today, we tend to look forward to issues that are coming down the line."

The Tuskar Tunnel is just one detail of a sweeping vision unveiled by the Academy. The authors stress that their document is not to be taken as a firm prediction of what the country will be like, but as an expression of the same can-do spirit found in "the Sixties vision of walking on the moon".

It anticipates that by 2050 the population of the whole island will be approaching eight million, living in four million houses (750,000 more than today) and owning four million cars. But with proper planning, more cars needn't mean worse gridlock. The drive time between Dublin and Belfast city centres on a motorway forming part of the Trans-European Transport Network will be under 1hr 45min, while many of the new housing schemes will line the route of The Diagonal, a roadway from the new twin city of Newry-Dundalk, through Navan and Portlaoise to Cork.

By 2050 (oil resources permitting) the number of passengers going through Dublin and Belfast airports annually will have soared from 15m today to 51m. The port of Dublin will be busier than ever, despite the presence of a new rival, already in the planning in 2005, constructed by the Drogheda Port Company on the Fingal coast of north Dublin.

However, despite its steady expansion from handling 20 million tonnes of freight in 2005 to 65 million tonnes, by 2050 Dublin port will have lost its status as Ireland's biggest. If the cunning plan comes to fruition, it and every other port in the country will be dwarfed by a gargantuan new freight hub in the Shannon Estuary known as the Shannon Super-Port.

Current developments in the packaging and transport of container freight suggest that today's already supersize ocean-going transporters will continue to grow ever more vast. According to John Dunne, Chief Executive of the CCI which commissioned this week's survey: "These super-ships will continue to get bigger and will only stop growing when they reach a size where growing any larger would stop them from passing through the Straits of Malacca."

The Straits of Malacca, which link the Indian and Pacific Oceans, are the world's busiest sea route, accommodating more than 50,000 vessels each year. The Straits are the shortest route between three of the planet's most populous countries - India, China and Indonesia - but they narrow to a perilous 3km at one point, creating an accident black spot.

In the event of a serious collision between two seagoing monster ships, or of a ship running aground on one of the many treacherous reefs, the Straits could be closed to shipping indefinitely, with huge inflationary effects for the global economy as oil, coal and other resources would be forced to go around the long way.

What counts today for the Staits of Malacca will count by 2050 for the English Channel which, because it is shallow and heavily congested, is already becoming off-limits to the world's biggest transport ships. The consequences for Rotterdam, currently the world's biggest port, are clear to see.

According to John Dunne: "We are looking into a not-too-distant future when Europe will be served by a small number of giant transport hubs. There might be three air hubs accommodating the coming breed of super-planes, with London, Paris and Frankfurt looking like strong candidates.

"Poland seems most likely to be the hub of the continent-wide rail system. As the container ships get bigger and bigger, the English Channel will become impassable for them and we will end up with maybe three new superports serving the whole continent. The potential sites for these include the south coast of England, the southwest of France, Spain, and the Shannon Estuary."

Patrick Lynch elaborates: "The Shannon Estuary could be developed as a very real and valuable natural resource because it has wide, deep inlets and it has the space to accommodate all the storage and other facilities required to make it a major entrepot for mainland Europe.

The giant ships would unload at Shannon Super-Port, then the European High Speed Rail Network would shuttle the cargo across Munster, through the Tuskar Tunnel, across Wales and England and on to the continent via a second Channel Tunnel.

"It is no more than a concept so far, but when we published it the first reaction was from Pembrokshire County Council who'd be at the other end of the Tuskar Tunnel, and they are very enthusiastic. The geology along the route of the tunnel means you'd be operating in waters just 80 or 90 metres deep, which is no big deal with current technology."

So, the message from the Chambers of Commerce and the Academy of Engineering to the Department of Transport appears to be: "Get your skates on, and your thinking caps too."

"I don't think this is an issue just for the Department of Transport," says Patrick Lynch. "This is much bigger than Ireland inc. This is about planning the transport future of all of Europe, and it should be considered at the level of the European Commission."

In which case, argues John Dunne, we should immediately get our lobbying act together. He reflects: "It's a bit like putting in a bid to host the Olympics. You mightn't win the bid in the end, but the sooner you start planning the better prepared you are to succeed."

Maskhadov

That article makes my point perfectly about the capacity problem and ship size problem. Also of note is the niche for a major air hub in Shannon. The fact the airport would be so close to the H.S.R and deep port, it would make it a important strategic development if it went ahead.

The government was really pushing the air hub when we had the presidency but I dont know what happened since then.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.kishtpc.com/Free-En/free_ireland.htm

The Shannon Free Trade Zone, located at the Shannon International Airport, is the world's oldest free zone and was established in 1947.

Shannon has had nearly 60 years of tax exemptions, captive audiances from enforced landings, plenty of room to expand. Hasn't been an international air hub since the days of flying boars in the 1930's, with the exception of Aeroflot who used it instead of landing in NATO countries, which no longer applies.

Ryanair can't move cargo, but a lot more stuff gets flown than you'd imagine. Think of all that ebay stuff. http://www.payloadasia.com/Magazine/archives/10_05/1005_coverstory.html

In 2004, Incheon International Airport ranked third in international cargo throughput after Hong Kong and Narita with 2.1 million tonnes

But the method of shipping depends on cost/time , where time is important Air travel is used. For people and small parcels Air may be cheaper as well. Where cost is the overriding factor ships are used where possible. Rail should be used for containerised traffic between major cities to keep traffic off the roads, but the delays and costs of transshipping mean this would only work if our main ports had rail links at the quayside for direct ship to train and the infrastructure in place. It's a big gamble. But I can't see anyone changing the mode of transport unless no other way. In this country there used to be a Law forcing people to use CIE to transport goods, over certain distances, not much chance of getting it back.

Maskhadov

Shannon has a excellent chance of being a major strategic location. Just like Hong Kong and Singapore. The government just needs to get its finger out and push ahead with the project(s).

Freight can be moved by air. Of course its a different kind of frieght than the container ships. If you combined the massive port (with fully automated handling containers, high speed rail link) with the strategic Shannon air hub it would be a fantastic development.

clear thinking

This would appear to be back on the agenda with ash clouds back on the horizon.

At a cost of €20bn+ it would need to make €1.0bn a year. Can this be done, does the DoT have any idea?

OurLadyofKnock

Frank McDonald is truly a gob****e.

Capt'n Midnight

clear thinking wrote: »

This would appear to be back on the agenda with ash clouds back on the horizon.

At a cost of €20bn+ it would need to make €1.0bn a year. Can this be done, does the DoT have any idea?

Wow you resurected a 6 year old thread :eek:
and we are in a recession so no money

And even if there was money, you are only saving at most an hour compared to the HSS. Upgrading the railway line between Anglesy and Crew would achieve most of the time saving for a tiny fraction of the cost

Cookie_Monster

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And even if there was money, you are only saving at most an hour compared to the HSS. Upgrading the railway line between Anglesy and Crew would achieve most of the time saving for a tiny fraction of the cost

bad comparison though as the HSS is not long for this world. So add another 2 hours for conventional ferry.
Still crazy though