Hanafin attacks Kenny over Irish proposal

ishmael whale

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1112/finegael.html
Hanafin attacks Kenny over Irish proposal
12 November 2005 16:57
Education minister Mary Hanafin has attacked Enda Kenny's proposal to remove compulsory Irish for Leaving Cert students as 'opportunistic ill-conceived option politics.'
Ms Hanafin said that Irish has never been so well supported particularily with its recent elevation to official status in the EU….

I’m not posting this up for a debate on Irish in particular, although clearly people will react to this piece as they will. What I think is of more interest in the reaction of Mary Hanafin as an example of how denial of reality forms such an important part of Irish public life.
It is simply a fact that Irish people leave school without much knowledge of Irish despite spending €500 million a year on it. One rational response would be to end compulsory Irish, and spend less money on teaching Irish. Another rational response would be to see why this money achieves so little and make changes aimed at using this €500million so that people do leave school with a significant level of Irish.

But the response that Irish is in great shape because it’s now an official language of the EU is an example of how many Irish people react to problems by creating a little fantasy world where the problem doesn’t exist. We know that making Irish an EU language was the typical grand gesture aimed at creating an official status for the language that it lacks in real life. Yet here it is cited as if it explains why its alright to waste €500 million failing to teach it to the Irish nation.

This kind of reality denial is not unique. Another manifestation that I think fits into this category is the wave of complaints that the Wexford People newspaper received following their reportage of the simple fact of a priest being convicted of paedophilia.

The layer of denial and fantasy is something I think features in many public debates. We know that we need to decentralise political power. We also know this raises the question of reintroduction of some kind of local taxation. So instead we argue over a nutty plan to scatter government offices all over the country, which has nothing to do with decentralisation as it is normally understood, cost a lot of money but avoids the need to have a sensible debate over what local autonomy means.

I could go on, but I’m more interested in hearing if anyone else has similar thoughts about this layer of fantasy that separates much of our domestic political debate from the reality of Ireland today and what is genuinely important going forward.

Or will this thread just slowly vanish down the page.

Big Ears

I agree with Kenny and Fine Gael on this issue , optional Irish is the way to go . Compulsory Irish is wasting a lot of money and giving a lot of student problems .

'We know that making Irish an EU language was the typical grand gesture aimed at creating an official status for the language that it lacks in real life.'

Exactly , it may now be an official language but that doesn't mean things are any better .

mike65

Denial of changing realities is I suspect an almost inevitiable aspect of being part of the Powers That Be, those who have climbed the various greasy poles
did so knowing thier world was 'flat' and once in position will continue to belive that as being true. The last thing they want is reality getting in the way of thier world view, so ignore it for as long as possible.

If the language is dead on its feet get it made an official EU langauge, if the Church (the one with a special positon) is corrupt offer its senior officers an indemnity deal rather than prosecute, pay homage to a United Ireland even if in private you never think it'll happen. Tell us changing policy on carbon emissions is something for tomorrow even as the Kyoto breach fines are being calculated - it'll wait for another day. And so on.

Mike.

murphaph

Totally agree IW, there's a shocking (well not really) level of denial and make-believe in irish politics. It inhabits all parties to some extent, from SF's crazy utopianistic 'manifesto' to FF's belief that nobody could have governed the country better than them lately to FG's transport spokesperson's belief that the Luas is sufficient to get commuters from Kildare to the city centre. It goes on and on.

This latest statement from Kenny is of course so common sense that it has drawn criticism for being "opportunistic". It's healthy that finally mainstream politicians like Kenny and O'Donnell are openly questioning the cornerstones of the free state (80 years too late, but hey hum) and I hope every aspect of irish society continues to be questioned, so that we may some day grow up and move away from the fantasy politics we have to endure today.

I haven't bothered contributing to the decentralisation thread because it is such an obvious and pathetic attempt to placate the regions without actually giving them any autonomy and instead making the governance of this country more expensive in the process.

Compulsory Irish is here for a while yet. There are a lot of irish teachers that FF or any government will be wary of irritating. Imagine if we put as much effort into kids learning german or french at school would we not be better off.

Diorraing

I don't object to making Irish optional as long as you make English and Maths aswell. They're not optional at A-level or any other examination so why here.
Giving Irish EU status does make things better as it creates more jobs for Irish speakers and therefore encourages more people to learn Irish. There are significantly more Irish speakers in the country than there at the start of last century. From a stage where no-one gave a damn about Irish to the stage where more and more people are learning it, where there is a T.V and radio station (soon to be 2 radio stations), it is people who are ignoring the growth of the language who are in denial.

Bloodychancer

Diorraing wrote:

I don't object to making Irish optional as long as you make English and Maths aswell. They're not optional at A-level or any other examination so why here.
Giving Irish EU status does make things better as it creates more jobs for Irish speakers and therefore encourages more people to learn Irish. There are significantly more Irish speakers in the country than there at the start of last century. From a stage where no-one gave a damn about Irish to the stage where more and more people are learning it, where there is a T.V and radio station (soon to be 2 radio stations), it is people who are ignoring the growth of the language who are in denial.

Not to mention the dramatic increase in the number of Gael scoils and even now it is virtually impossible to get a child into one the waiting lists are that long.

murphaph

Diorraing wrote:

I don't object to making Irish optional as long as you make English and Maths aswell. They're not optional at A-level or any other examination so why here.

Why? English is the language you need to function effectively in this country. Literacy in your mother tongue and numeracy are far more important than an additional language.

We don't want to go down the softly softly A level route IMO, but that's another debate, not really suited to this forum.

Irish should be withdrawn as a compulsory subject and if it's replaced it should be replaced with an essential life skill, some form of all-inclusive financial class, encompassing household budgeting, debt management etc. Real skills for the real world.

If parents want to send their kids to gaeilscoils, no problem, fund them too (because the only people who I know who can speak irish were immersed in it in a gaeilscoil, so they do work) but irish is not essential for your day to day life life literacy and numeracy skills are, so it should not be compared to english and maths.

Diorraing

You don't learn to speak English in Leaving Cert English! Whatever about using Irish in the future, you're sure as hell never going to use William Wordsworth or Emily Dickinson. You must also be implying, Murphaph, that people who didn't go to secondary school, who didn't do the Leaving Cert are not able to speak proper English - nonsense! As for Math, after the Junior Cert I see no reason to do it unless you're going study it in future or do some complicated business/economics.
The problem with Irish is the way it is taught at primary level. Children should have a fair degree of fluency when they come into secondary school and should then be able to tackle literature - they are not and therefore secondary Irish is a struggle for them.

oscarBravo

Diorraing wrote:

...you're sure as hell never going to use William Wordsworth or Emily Dickinson.

I dunno. I've been known to open a can of Gerard Manley Hopkins (or even Tennyson, if I'm having a bad day) on someone's ass.

leeroybrown

I'd love to see the Irish requirement removed from the Leaving Cert. While some people may have an interest in the language (and fair play to them), I always felt that it was an unnecessary encumbrance upon me and that in turn was componded by the paltry quality of tuition my school provided for it.

That said, I don't see there being the political will to remove it any time soon. Even if there were, the powers that be (senior civil servants) in the Deptartment of Education who always end up having the ultimate say would no doubt see to the plans being scuppered.

One caveat is that I would hate see the removal of the Irish requirement being used as a stick to beat Maths and English and possibly dilute our education to something akin the UK system. While Irish proves useless to the large majority of school leavers, decent English and/or Maths skills benefit the vast majority of those who want to get a good LC and progress further in education or in business.

Diorraing

leeroybrown wrote:

decent English and/or Maths skills benefit the vast majority of those who want to get a good LC and progress further in education or in business.

How? My brother is studying Law and when he finishes, he will have absolutely no use for Leaving Cert or even Junior Cert Maths. While he will be arguing most cases through English, he's hardly going to be receiting Shakespeare in the courtroom (A junior Cert standerd of English shall suffice). Now with the Language Bill passed and European status being granted, there is a significant increase in the amount of cases being argued through Irish. And if the legal business doesn't suit there are plenty of government jobs that require Irish, jobs in T.G.4, Raidió na Gaeltachta, Foinse, Comhar...etc.
So if one was to make Irish optional, one should abolish the whole concept of "compulsary" subjects.

therecklessone

ishmael whale wrote:

I’m not posting this up for a debate on Irish in particular, although clearly people will react to this piece as they will. What I think is of more interest in the reaction of Mary Hanafin as an example of how denial of reality forms such an important part of Irish public life.

Didn't take long for the rest of you to lose sight of the topic the OP wanted to discuss, did it?

I agree with your post IW, for the most part Irish politicians and decision makers are fantasists, and the few that dare to defy the consensus get drowned out by the braying mob. Try watching coverage of the Dail for a taste of what passes for political discourse in this country.

I lay a lot of the blame for this with the structure the Dail takes after election. Opposition becomes self-serving (i.e. rather than engage in the evolution of legislation, our opposition parties are left to snipe at the govt for five years in an attempt to show how they'd be the better option) while the governing parties allow little or not role for their vanquished opponents for fear they'd surrender the credit for legislative change. IIRC, up to 1997 only one Private Members Bill (i.e. non-government) was introduced successfully in the Dail. Can't speak for the period since.

As a result, Enda Kenny could come up with the most sensible legislative program in the history of the state but as long as he's in opposition he'll be drowned out by the likes of Hanafin. Make no mistake, this is a very sensible suggestion from Kenny (so much so, I'm seriously considering voting FG in the next election...me....who lies somewhere between Labour and Joe Higgins...:eek: )

Kappar

I think that Kenny's suggestion is a postitive one both for students but also for the Irish language. However, I do see one problem and that is the matriculation requirments for all the NUIs requires Irish therefore for anyone that wants to go to an NUI or just wants to keep there options open Irish will become de facto compulsury.

catholicireland

Enda Kenny, ha! what will he say next!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I think Irish should however be promoted more in our daily lives, like on tv and radio - more irish programs - maby even an irish 9 o clock news! I think that would encourage more people to speak it in their daily lives, and maby one day it would become our first langauge!

Diorraing

catholicireland wrote:

maby one day it would become our first langauge!

There's no reason why it wouldn't. Hebrew was as dead as Latin is now but the Jews took it, resurrected it and is now the first language in Israel. Irish is in a far better state than Hebrew was

jank

There's no reason why it wouldn't. Hebrew was as dead as Latin is now but the Jews took it, resurrected it and is now the first language in Israel. Irish is in a far better state than Hebrew was

Unfortunately Jewish people have a deep pride of their past and culture, something Irish people could learn from, very apparent on boards.

If parents want to send their kids to gaeilscoils, no problem, fund them too (because the only people who I know who can speak irish were immersed in it in a gaeilscoil, so they do work) but irish is not essential for your day to day life life literacy and numeracy skills are, so it should not be compared to english and maths.

The future of Irish is in the Gaelscoils. More of them are being planned all the time as parents of this generation want their kids to have the oppertunity they never had. I have argured this case before that a bilingual primary education shows that children perfrom much better in their other subjects(International studies show that).

However the best thing about this is the appreciation of it. People who go to Gaelscoils find Irish much easier in 2nd level thus learn more of its poerty and fine literature, therefore apprecating it and not hating as someone who stuggles to say "Conas ata tu".

Gaelscoil students then carry this appreciation on with us as we grow older.

Its true 90% of the people I know that went to gaelscoils appreciate it 100 times more then those who dont. I have meet others from other gaelscoils that have thought the same.

If they make it optional then make them all optional. TBH I found so many more people who hated maths then Irish, cause maths is something finite you are either good at it or not. Irish just takes time(what gaelscoils give you), we can all speak a language right?

therecklessone

Diorraing wrote:

There's no reason why it wouldn't. Hebrew was as dead as Latin is now but the Jews took it, resurrected it and is now the first language in Israel. Irish is in a far better state than Hebrew was

jank wrote:

Unfortunately Jewish people have a deep pride of their past and culture, something Irish people could learn from, very apparent on boards.

I think you'll both find the resurrection of Hebrew was greatly helped by the rather pressing need for a common language if the Zionist program was to succeed. It's all very well for the Jews of the world to converge on the Promised Land, but unless you want to recreate the Tower of Babel, with Russian, English, German and God knows what else being spoken, a common language somes in very handy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language

The revival of Hebrew as a mother tongue was initiated by the efforts of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda (1858-1922) (אליעזר בן־יהודה). He joined the Jewish national movement and in 1881 emigrated to Eretz Israel, then a province of the Ottoman Empire. Motivated by the surrounding ideals of renovation and rejection of the diaspora "shtetl" lifestyle, Ben-Yehuda set out to develop tools for making the literary and liturgical language into everyday spoken language.

However, his brand of Hebrew followed norms that had been replaced in Eastern Europe by more modern grammar and style, in the writings of people like Achad Ha-Am and others. His organizational efforts and involvement with the establishment of schools and the writing of textbooks pushed the vernacularization activity into a gradually accepted movement. It was not, however, until the 1904-1905 "Second aliyah" that Hebrew had caught real momentum in Ottoman Palestine with the new and better organized enterprises set forth by the new group of immigrants. When the British Mandate of Palestine recognized Hebrew as one of the country's three official languages (English, Arabic, and Hebrew, in 1922), its new formal status contributed to its diffusion.

While many saw his work as fanciful or even blasphemous [1], many soon understood the need for a common language amongst Jews of pre-state Israel who at the turn of the 20th century were arriving in large numbers from diverse countries and speaking different languages. A Committee of the Hebrew Language was established. Later it became the Academy of the Hebrew Language, an organization that exists today. The results of his and the Committee's work were published in a dictionary (The Complete Dictionary of Ancient and Modern Hebrew). Ben-Yehuda's work fell on fertile ground, and by the beginning of the 20th century, Hebrew was well on its way to becoming the main language of the Jewish population of both Ottoman and British pre-State Israel.

Ireland on the other hand is blessed (or cursed, depending on your viewpoint) by a functioning common language. English.

samb

One of the most important factors for the celtic tiger has been the English language. If we didn't speek it we would still be a backward poor country.
this is a fact rarely stated.

jank

samb wrote:

One of the most important factors for the celtic tiger has been the English language. If we didn't speek it we would still be a backward poor country.
this is a fact rarely stated.

Half of belgium speak flemish, there not backward

samb

samb wrote:

One of the most important factors for the celtic tiger has been the English language. If we didn't speek it we would still be a backward poor country.
this is a fact rarely stated.

No its not, its an opinion.

Japan's done pretty well without English...

Boggle

Half of belgium speak flemish, there not backward

No, its quite a nice country actually - lived in Antwerp for a few years when I was younger! Thing is that the average 10 year old in Belgium speaks 3 or 4 languages fluently(English, Flemish/Dutch, French, German...) - ths is by virtue of location and culture and would not be duplicated here and as such isn't a very relevent example.

Seriously, how many foreign companies would locate here if they couldn't understand us in conference calls??

Diorraing

Boggle wrote:

Seriously, how many foreign companies would locate here if they couldn't understand us in conference calls??

If you think they are worried about the language you are deluding yourslef. Companies come to Ireland because of our low corporate tax rates. They would see the speaking of Irish as a minor impairment - they'd just hire translators. As mentioned earlier, Japan, Germany and other places get American investment even if they don't speak English.

ishmael whale

I suppose its inevitable that given that I’ve raised this point in the context of an issue to do with Irish that the specifics of the Irish agenda get wrapped up in the discussion. Again, I’m really just using Irish as an illustration of how much of our political debate takes place in a fantasy world far from reality.

I think some of that is illustrated by some of the reactions here. The core issue is €500m is spent teaching Irish, but students leave without any real command of the language. The issue is not that generally students who learn a second language find learning other languages easier as that is presumably dependant on teaching the second language competently, which is what we are not doing at the moment. It marginally has to do with the issue of Gaelscoils to the extent that they illustrate that better resourced schools with lower pupil teacher ratios perform better. But the issue is that, theoretically, all school children learn Irish (apart from the increasing numbers fiddling the exemption scheme). But the practical result is most leave school linguistically clueless.

Some contributions display that tendancy to make increasing bizarre arguments to avoid simple realities, i.e. that the justification that making Irish an EU language is creating jobs for people who speak Irish. In truth the reasoning probably was that superficial. But if someone can truly take comfort from the idea that we employ Irish speakers making television programmes that hardly anyone watches, translating official documents that no-one will read while we pour away €500 million of educational resources for little effect, then its hard to see how they can actually be encouraged to engage in a debate about the reality of Irish life and what kinds of things actually need to be done to secure the nation’s future.

Or, put another way, the reason our political debates tend to be superficial and distant from real concerns is because we’re gob****es, and hence the representatives we elect are gob****es.

Boggle

If you think they are worried about the language you are deluding yourslef.

And if you think that a common language isn't a factor then you're kidding yourself. We are not the cheapest country in the world to setup in.

(Wonder if this is indicative of the original posters point about our people liking to delude themselves - the language, while being a beautiful one and part of our heritage is unlikely ever to see widespread use again... who here has had a conversation in Irish since leaving school??)

oscarBravo

Boggle wrote:

...the language, while being a beautiful one and part of our heritage is unlikely ever to see widespread use again... who here has had a conversation in Irish since leaving school??

I've had many, and the number is increasing. I'm not particularly skilled at the language, but the more I use it the better I get.

There's a degree of snobbery towards Irish that bugs me. People who don't speak the language ask rhetorical questions like the one to which I've responded, as a way of saying (in effect) "I haven't had a conversation in Irish since I left school therefore the language is dead".

I recently attended a public meeting at which a mixture of Irish and English were spoken. A token effort was made to speak English for the benefit of the non-Irish speakers present, but the attendees repeatedly forgot themselves and lapsed into their primary language. This meeting was on the subject of broadband and other matters technical, and still many of those present found it easier to express themselves as Gaeilge.

The snobbery, and indeed condescension, extends to those who respond in the positive to the census question on the language: there's an automatic assumption that people lie en masse in response to this question.

Boggle, your profile indicates that your location is London - forgive me for suggesting that it's not a place in which you'll find yourself immersed in the Irish language very often.

Calina

Boggle wrote:

No, its quite a nice country actually - lived in Antwerp for a few years when I was younger! Thing is that the average 10 year old in Belgium speaks 3 or 4 languages fluently(English, Flemish/Dutch, French, German...) - ths is by virtue of location and culture and would not be duplicated here and as such isn't a very relevent example.

yeah but I'd ask the question why, if the Belgians can manage it, we can't. Instead of attacking Irish per se, we should look at why we are such poor performers at learning languages. If the Belgians, the French and the Germans can competently acquire second languages, it's a bit pathetic to claim that "we're just not good". What we are is lazy about learning them.

For those worried about how it would impact on our command of English if we actually were effectively Irish speaking rather than anglophone - it's worth looking at the situation in the Netherlands. They actually shame native speakers with their command of English.

As for the whole fantasy land argument, it's an overwhelming impression I get from everyone in this country, not just the odd few politicians or powers that be. We expect perfection without having to attain it. As such I wouldn't even bother using the question of Mary Hanafin's response as an example of fantasyland thinking because we are all guilty of it.

Regarding waiting lists for Gaelscoils - traditionally they have lower teacher-pupil ratios and therein lies quite a bit of their attraction.

Boggle

Boggle, your profile indicates that your location is London - forgive me for suggesting that it's not a place in which you'll find yourself immersed in the Irish language very often.

No offence taken whatsoever - a valid point. Thing is I've only moved here in the past 3 months (fancied tryin somethin new for a while) so I'm not basing my opinion on my experiences in London.

There's a degree of snobbery towards Irish that bugs me. People who don't speak the language ask rhetorical questions like the one to which I've responded, as a way of saying (in effect) "I haven't had a conversation in Irish since I left school therefore the language is dead".

Its not the fact that I haven't had a conversation in Irish that is the problem, its that so many people in the country haven't even a basic grasp of the language that is the problem. Its definitely not snobbery towards the language however I did resent being forced a subject in school that I couldn't ever envisage being any use to me in later life.

yeah but I'd ask the question why, if the Belgians can manage it, we can't. Instead of attacking Irish per se, we should look at why we are such poor performers at learning languages. If the Belgians, the French and the Germans can competently acquire second languages, it's a bit pathetic to claim that "we're just not good". What we are is lazy about learning them.

In belgium, the kids grew up watching tv from all different countries (germany, france, america, etc..) and so were immediately exposed to this on a constant basis. Add to that the wealth of different languages just a few minutes journey from any spot and the fact that the parents geneally spoke different languages. This culminated in an environment where languages were useful to learn which does change things... I'm not claiming that we're not good - I'm claiming that we would take a long time (if we ever had the will to do so) to develop a multi-lingual culture.

maccor

murphaph wrote:

Literacy in your mother tongue .... are far more important than an additional language.

If we are irish then our mother tongue is the irish language. It matters little that few of us speak it - its still our language. English is the 'additional language'.

Irish should be made optional but the money spent on encouraging people to speak the language and use it. its certianly not dead - not when you think of the current demand for irish translators for government documents and websites.

bonkey

ishmael whale wrote:

What I think is of more interest in the reaction of Mary Hanafin as an example of how denial of reality forms such an important part of Irish public life.

Are we any different to anywhere else though? Except on the rarest of issues, most political parties in most democracies that I can think of tend to have a policy of "anything that isn't our plan is wrong, because naturally we would never suggest anything but the best option".

The core issue is €500m is spent teaching Irish, but students leave without any real command of the language.

I agree. I might not agree on what should be done about it, but it is all-but-unarguable that this is yet another situation where the government shows its sincerity for dealing with a problem by throwing money at it.

Calina wrote:

Instead of attacking Irish per se, we should look at why we are such poor performers at learning languages.

I would hazard a guess that you'll find this a common trend amongst all anglophone nations.

jc

Calina

maccor wrote:

If we are irish then our mother tongue is the irish language. It matters little that few of us speak it - its still our language. English is the 'additional language'.

Strictly speaking, your mother tongue is the one you learn to speak as you grow up.

Sponge Bob

bonkey wrote:

I would hazard a guess that you'll find this a common trend amongst all anglophone nations.

Quite.,

Ireland spends 100s of millions of €€€ every year on teaching French and to a lesser extent German and Spanish an Italian.

The number of Irish secondary school students who can then order a latté in that foreign language is minimal .

If we change anything it will be done to admit that the Irish are essentially monoglots rather than polyglots . Abolish all compulsory languages other than English and concentrate the resources on getting our students up to functional literacy in proper english rather than skanger dialects.