Hanafin attacks Kenny over Irish proposal

maccor

Calina wrote:

Strictly speaking, your mother tongue is the one you learn to speak as you grow up.

ahh - ok then, our mother tongue should have been our Irish if it hadnt been beaten out of our ancestors

segadreamcast

maccor wrote:

Irish should be made optional but the money spent on encouraging people to speak the language and use it. its certianly not dead - not when you think of the current demand for irish translators for government documents and websites.

Ah so, rather than being dead, it's being kept alive on 'life support' by needless translations of documents, that'll never be read in their Irish translations. Indeed, it seems at this rate that Irish is becoming the new CAP (i.e. a money-pit)

segadreamcast

maccor wrote:

ahh - ok then, our mother tongue should have been our Irish if it hadnt been beaten out of our ancestors

Didn't take long, did it? "Oh, oh...oh...well THEY BEAT US UP!!!" What a load. When are some people going to move on?

Zombrex

There is no way Irish should be a complusary leaving cert subject. The only complusary ones should be the basic requirements for modern life, ie Maths and English. Despite what people say, leaving cert English does teach you English.

I think at least one science subject should be compuslary as well, and I liked the idea of a basic financial studies calss too.

If someone wants to take Irish then let them as a choice.

maccor

NoelRock wrote:

Didn't take long, did it? "Oh, oh...oh...well THEY BEAT US UP!!!" What a load. When are some people going to move on?

listen mucker, you cant change history. you can ignore if you wish though. oh, move on? when you take the question asked into consideration, I dont understand where you are coming from. unless of course, you wish to be obnoxious and start an argument.

ishmael whale

bonkey wrote:

Are we any different to anywhere else though? Except on the rarest of issues, most political parties in most democracies that I can think of tend to have a policy of "anything that isn't our plan is wrong, because naturally we would never suggest anything but the best option".

You are right to say there’s no Political Delusion Index to assess if, on average, Fianna Fail statements on the Irish language are more delusional than, say, George W. Bush’s statements on the Gulf War. It does come down to a question of judgement and that judgement might simply have to do with familiarity with conditions here.

That said, I’m aware that some other countries would have staff pupil ratios in primary schools as bad as ours. But I’m not aware of those countries being happy to allow a sizeable amount of their scarce educational resources to be used for little benefit. I feel there is something perverse about the way we allow the primary function of public services to be undermined by secondary considerations – as if schools exist to employ teachers of Irish, and not to educate children.

Its also a worrisome that we know right now, objectively, that our educational system does not score well internationally. But there seems to be an unwillingness to confront those issues, with part of the problem (and only part) being the place of Irish in the curriculum.

Sponge Bob

ishmael whale wrote:

Its also a worrisome that we know right now, objectively, that our educational system does not score well internationally. But there seems to be an unwillingness to confront those issues, with part of the problem (and only part) being the place of Irish in the curriculum.

Our education system in quality terms peaked 20-30 years ago and has headed slowly downhill since.

Most problems with the standard of Irish in school are caused by incompetent primary school teachers who never seem to get inspected . By the time the kids arrive in secondary they have no second language grounding ...Gaelscoils being an obvious exception to that.

If you walk into any primary school in Holland or Sweden and speak to the 10 year old kids in their second language ...english as it happens... they have obviously been competently taught . We cannot do this at all , yet we pay our primary teachers a lot of money to do fuk all with most of the curriculum much of the time . Mass sacking of incompetents is called for, we do not owe these people a living or a fat pension.

Second language teaching in Ireland is a complete joke , then we stupidly want them to do a foreign language in second level with no grounding in many cases .

Horror of horrors, the incompetents who cannot seem to teach the current curriculum are now being asked to teach Science. That will go the way of Irish within 10 years I'd say

segadreamcast

maccor wrote:

listen mucker, you cant change history. you can ignore if you wish though. oh, move on? when you take the question asked into consideration, I dont understand where you are coming from. unless of course, you wish to be obnoxious and start an argument.

I come from the year 2005. English oppression has no bearing on the simple, undeniable fact that the Irish language is dreadful, backwards in terms of things such as verb tenses and is, frankly, out of step with all other European languages. Add to this the problem with finding teachers, and our general (unprovoked, I might add) unwillingness to learn it and you see why nobody knows the language.

Indeed, while my perspective is coming from the year 2005 - your opinion is apparently coming from 1916, thus, it is a relic of history, much like this outdated language in itself.

Sponge Bob

NoelRock wrote:

that the Irish language is dreadful, backwards in terms of things such as verb tenses and is, frankly, out of step with all other European languages. Add to this the problem with finding teachers, and our general (unprovoked, I might add) unwillingness to learn it and you see why nobody knows the language.

The exact same can be said for French but you seem completely unable to recognise that .

Get rid of all non english languages or do them properly . Teach English properly instead. Get rid of horrible retarded dialects like that awful Midlands one or Cavan or Limerick or Skanger talk and get them fully functionally literate in English ....a major failing of our education system.

Our teachers are very well paid with enormous holidays and fabulous pensions. If they wont deliver then fire half their asses and find competents to take their place.

maccor

I come from the year 2005. English oppression has no bearing on the simple, undeniable fact that the Irish language is dreadful, backwards in terms of things such as verb tenses and is, frankly, out of step with all other European languages. Add to this the problem with finding teachers, and our general (unprovoked, I might add) unwillingness to learn it and you see why nobody knows the language.

Indeed, while my perspective is coming from the year 2005 - your opinion is apparently coming from 1916, thus, it is a relic of history, much like this outdated language in itself.

well you can fairly type for a newly born.

Leave the rethoric out of this please. If you cant fathom why I mentioned what I did then .... really - thats a concern for yourself and nothing to do with me. I do suggest thought you read the posts to see how it came up in the first place and try not to be so quick to start a row.

NoelRock

NoelRock wrote:

English oppression has no bearing on the simple, undeniable fact that the Irish language is dreadful, backwards in terms of things such as verb tenses and is, frankly, out of step with all other European languages.

No no, not another who confuses opinion with fact.

It seems that the best that some in the anti-Irish language lobby can do is to come up with put downs about the quality of the language or how great English is in their opinion, then claim that that opinion is some subjective fact, and present it accordingly...

Diorraing

NoelRock wrote:

I come from the year 2005. English oppression has no bearing on the simple, undeniable fact that the Irish language is dreadful, backwards in terms of things such as verb tenses and is, frankly, out of step with all other European languages.

I feel that having studied French, German and Latin for the L.C and now taking Italian that I can speak with reasonable authority on this issue. Saying that Irish is a backward language shows a complete ignorance. The subjuncitve in Irish is very rarely used - compare that with how often it is used in French and how complicated it can be. Irish, like German and French has a conditional tense - nothing strange there. Irish has a simple past tense, a simple present and a simple future. How would you mid telling me does this make the language backward? How can any language be backward? From what you've said, i take it that you can really only speak English and compare how difficult Irish is to that. I'm not trying to patronise you, but Irish is not difficult, not when taught right.
Why is it dreadful?

Sand

Or, put another way, the reason our political debates tend to be superficial and distant from real concerns is because we’re gob****es, and hence the representatives we elect are gob****es.

Post of the year tbh.

Mind you, the only real contact or feedback politicans get in a useful format to assist them in decision making is from lobby groups who tend to be extreme in their views compared to the majority of people. Kenny might be speaking for the majority of people/moderate opinion when he says make it optional, but the Irish lobby groups who have proven themselves amazingly/depressingly effective in getting funding/official blessings for their sacred cow will have more to say about the role of Irish than the majority of people who just couldnt be arsed either way.

I dont care what happens to Irish in the education system tbh, Id like to see it go (when I think of the idiocy attached to the language - Im great at maths, but because I was doing pass Irish, I was forced to do pass maths for a year; Under the school ethos my level of Irish determined my level of maths by default), but Ive escaped the clutches of that system and its all behind me. To the gaelic league fanatics who dream of one people, one language, all dancing at the crossroads however its a major, major issue and theyll shout and scream about it. If you were a politician, looking at it from the angle of what would lose you votes, the decision to go with the loudest voice makes total sense.

oscarBravo

Sand wrote:

I dont care what happens to Irish in the education system tbh, Id like to see it go (when I think of the idiocy attached to the language - Im great at maths, but because I was doing pass Irish, I was forced to do pass maths for a year; Under the school ethos my level of Irish determined my level of maths by default), but Ive escaped the clutches of that system and its all behind me.

It seems to me you haven't drawn the logical conclusion from your experiences. The problem in your case wasn't the Irish language, or your lack of proficiency with it: the problem was the braindead procedure for connecting the levels of Irish and maths. Ergo, the logical conclusion is that Irish should be taught in a less braindead manner.

I'm a survivor of a piss-poor Irish education, and my fondness for the language is very much in spite of the way it was taught. I saw my old Irish teacher a few months ago, and even 18 years later I had to suppress an urge to drive over him.

Sand

Sand wrote:

To the gaelic league fanatics who dream of one people, one language, all dancing at the crossroads however its a major, major issue and theyll shout and scream about it.

Huh?

Who are these people? You referring to posters here or public representatives?

Either way, I can think of a lot of rich Dutch and German kids in this area whose parents have a lot of money, or enough to spend a few hundred grand on a site, and they make a lot of noise and shout and scream about the Irish language being part of the curriculum. Should we put them beside the Gaelic Leaguers to whom you refer and see who makes the loudest noise?

Dave!

NoelRock wrote:

I come from the year 2005. English oppression has no bearing on the simple, undeniable fact that the Irish language is dreadful, backwards in terms of things such as verb tenses and is, frankly, out of step with all other European languages.

err... like English?

Spanish, French, Italian, probably German, change verb endings as a means of specifying tenses (ie. ar, er, ir, are dropped and different endings are put on for each tense, each person). Whereas, in English... the verb, run. I run. I ran. I will run. I will not run. Why not just 'I ranned'? I do not run. Why not just 'I not run'? Why put an extra verb, 'do', in there? What about 'fingers' -- when was the last time you saw them 'fing'? Yet writers write all the time... The teacher taught, yet the preacher... preached?

English is a backwards language that bears no relation to modern European languages, despite coming from the same area.

With regards the topic at hand, I won't get too into it since I've done so a number of times in threads before, but I think that the Irish language should remain compulsary, but be completely reformed, made more 'fun', be more centred on conversation, have poetry and stories removed, etc. Removing it would mean most students coming out of school having not spoken their native language in at least 2 years. Bloody shame. It needs a total reform, the way it's taught now makes it boring, and students don't even know how to speak it after over 10 years of studying it. That's just ridiculous.

dr zoidberg

I think that Irish should not be compulsory for the LC, but the way it is being taught needs a complete overhaul. Pupils come out of secondary school with better French, German etc. than Irish - why? Irish is probably harder to grasp, but this does not fully account for the huge discrepancy in ability. The way Irish is taught is completely wrong IMO and symptomatic of the learning-by-rote exam system in this country. The system we have now does place a significant importance on the oral and aural exams which account for 40% of the overall marks, but teachers still make you sit down and learn notes off by heart for the oral exam. This is entirely missing the point. In fact, when I think back to school, we hardly spent a single Irish class just talking in Irish. It was all note-taking and testing.
No one should be forced to learn poetry, folklore etc. - the reason a language is taught should be to speak it. We need to move towards an almost entirely conversation-based style of education (à la language education at third-level). Pupils would enjoy learning Irish more and therefore put more effort into it if this was done. Making Irish optional need not lead to a massive reduction in numbers taking it.

Ok, back on topic. It's good to see Kenny has some sense of reality. Making Irish an official language is a typical Irish solution. It may help in the long run but you cannot ignore the crisis the language is facing. Not only do the vast majority not speak it (despite the census claims), but a lot of people have a strong sense of apathy towards it, or even worse, a hatred towards Irish. The government is never going to fix any problem if it cannot even acknowledge that one exists. Call me cynical if you will, but this is pretty typical of our current government.

Dave!

hmmm... I personally see Irish as making a "comeback" lately... It's definitely present among my friends and was in my year in school in 6th year especially. TG4 is getting quite popular, and Irish is becoming cool again. I think that a change in the curriculum and the way it is taught would coincide nicely with this. Young people are starting to want to learn Irish, but by the time they're done paraphrasing Irish poems or reading Clann Lir, they can't help hating it. Short-sightedness on the government's part. A love of the language should be encouraged, and the emphasis should be on speaking it definitely, and correct grammar. Once you understand the structure of the language, ie. starting a sentence with a verb, etc., then it's really just a case of extending your vocabulary by learning new infinitive verbs, adjectives, different nouns, etc., and all that is learned by experience and by speaking it daily. So I can see the language making a comeback if the government keeps it compulsary, changes the structure of the course, and goes along with the modernisation of Irish campaign that TG4 is spearheading.

EDIT:

The way it is now, with the stories and the poems, is just a way of pretending that the country is more literate than it actually is. It's kind of modelling the Irish course on the English course by understanding poems, looking at images in it, etc., which is ridiculous, because we're not fluent enough for that to be of any benefit. The course needs to deal with the foundations more. I personally grasped the concept of the language in early 6th year, so that was good for me, but alot of people never have grasped the concept that you start a sentence with a verb, and those "agam, agat, aige, aici..." things (can't remember what they're called). Once you understand that, that's the language, the rest is just vocab, but alot of my class spent most of their time memorising pieces and memorising uncommon words because they need to know how to explain how the poet is obviously dealing with a mild form of paranoid schizophrenia, rather than just how to say "ma, I'm headin to the shop, do ya need anything?"

segadreamcast

DaveMcG wrote:

hmmm... I personally see Irish as making a "comeback" lately... It's definitely present among my friends and was in my year in school in 6th year especially. TG4 is getting quite popular, and Irish is becoming cool again. I think that a change in the curriculum and the way it is taught would coincide nicely with this. Young people are starting to want to learn Irish, but by the time they're done paraphrasing Irish poems or reading Clann Lir, they can't help hating it. Short-sightedness on the government's part. A love of the language should be encouraged, and the emphasis should be on speaking it definitely, and correct grammar. Once you understand the structure of the language, ie. starting a sentence with a verb, etc., then it's really just a case of extending your vocabulary by learning new infinitive verbs, adjectives, different nouns, etc., and all that is learned by experience and by speaking it daily. So I can see the language making a comeback if the government keeps it compulsary, changes the structure of the course, and goes along with the modernisation of Irish campaign that TG4 is spearheading.

EDIT:

The way it is now, with the stories and the poems, is just a way of pretending that the country is more literate than it actually is. It's kind of modelling the Irish course on the English course by understanding poems, looking at images in it, etc., which is ridiculous, because we're not fluent enough for that to be of any benefit. The course needs to deal with the foundations more. I personally grasped the concept of the language in early 6th year, so that was good for me, but alot of people never have grasped the concept that you start a sentence with a verb, and those "agam, agat, aige, aici..." things (can't remember what they're called). Once you understand that, that's the language, the rest is just vocab, but alot of my class spent most of their time memorising pieces and memorising uncommon words because they need to know how to explain how the poet is obviously dealing with a mild form of paranoid schizophrenia, rather than just how to say "ma, I'm headin to the shop, do ya need anything?"

TG4: 20% of the Irish TV budget, 3% of the Irish TV audience. Yep...real resurgence there.

ishmael whale

And when you consider that TG4’s viewership figures are boosted by a considerable output as bearla, its clear that even that 3% market share is not an indicator of any significant demand for Irish language programming. This weeks TG4 TAM ratings are below, taken from their website. When you consider that Glor Tire is a country music talent programme where the contestants sing in English and I take it ‘GAA Beo’ is broadcasting sports, only two of the top ten TG4 shows this week could be really regarded as being in Irish.

TG4’s success is a bit like appeals to the legal status of Irish making it our first national language. It requires a voluntary suppression of disbelief. But, judging from the number of people who seem to be trying to equate the position of English and the position of Irish on the school curriculum, that suppression of disbelief features in public debate.

http://www.tg4.ie/bearla/scan/scan.htm
No. Programme Name TVR 000s Share
1. Glór Tíre 2.7 104 8%
2. El Condor 2.6 98 7%
3. GAA Beo 2.5 96 15%
4. Spies Like Us 1.9 72 6%
5. GAA Beo 1.8 70 13%
6. Deadly Voyage 1.7 63 8%
7. Adventures Of Superman 1.6 62 8%
8. Underdogs 1.6 61 8%
9. Fíorscéal 1.6 61 7%
10. Glór Tíre 1.5 59 4%

Cork

dr zoidberg wrote:

but the way it is being taught needs a complete overhaul. .

This is long over due.



Making the Irish language compulsory has failed.

Giving extra points for doing an exam thru Irish is also pointless.

Making Irish an offical EU language is also an error.

We need to rationlise the amount of languages in the EU. This will soon come.

It is about time supporters of the Irish language copped themselves to dealing with the language and stopped with dealing with side issues.

Sand

It seems to me you haven't drawn the logical conclusion from your experiences. The problem in your case wasn't the Irish language, or your lack of proficiency with it: the problem was the braindead procedure for connecting the levels of Irish and maths. Ergo, the logical conclusion is that Irish should be taught in a less braindead manner.

The problem imo was more the importance assigned to Irish, youd never see say, Economics and Maths linked like that. I doubt youd even see English and Maths linked like that. It was complete and utter foolishness, but it is typical of the way Irish is treated in this country. Its dead, but no one can admit it. If you passed a law tommorrow banning people from speaking English, the country would either ignore it or collapse. If you banned people from speaking Irish tommorrow only the Gaelic Leaguers would notice.

Who are these people? You referring to posters here or public representatives?

Theres a picture in the Times today of Enda Kenny addressing a crowd with a speaker phone outside FGs HQ. Those are the people Im talking about. Even a hint of a proposal had a hundred or so people out at his doorstep - and these are the people who took a day of work (assuming theyre not dancing at the crossroads themselves) to do it. Was I out at Enda Kennys doorstep to register my support and tell him what a good job he was doing? Nah. The feedback Kenny and all politicians get is from the extremists. Is it any wonder then we have our politicians off wasting everyones time with stupid symbolism like getting Irish made an official language of the EU? Ive yet to meet anyone who thinks "Yeah, great idea. Our hospitals are falling apart but lets get that Irish language thing sorted!" But fixing hospitals is hard, whilst humouring fanatics is much easier and more rewarding politically.

Thats why Bertie, in response to Kenny, mumbled and fumbled a sitting firmly on the fence response where he announced changes should be made but the language should be kept compulsory. Its ignoring the reality that nobody speaks the language, but it keeps the voting base happy in their dreamworld. Its the stuff of Hitler in his bunker with imaginary armies driving back the Soviets in 1945.

I'm a survivor of a piss-poor Irish education, and my fondness for the language is very much in spite of the way it was taught. I saw my old Irish teacher a few months ago, and even 18 years later I had to suppress an urge to drive over him.

If you describe yourself as a survivor of the system, why do you think forcing people to take a subject that they mightnt be any good at (there are people who simply are poor at picking up new languages) and there is no practical use for ( Maths has a practical use, even if youre poor at it. The same for English ) is going to work any better than it did in your case?

oscarBravo

Sand wrote:

Its ignoring the reality that nobody speaks the language...

...except that that's not the reality. Maybe you missed my post about a public meeting where almost everyone automatically spoke Irish as their first language.

Sand wrote:

If you describe yourself as a survivor of the system, why do you think forcing people to take a subject that they mightnt be any good at (there are people who simply are poor at picking up new languages) and there is no practical use for ( Maths has a practical use, even if youre poor at it. The same for English ) is going to work any better than it did in your case?

I have this strange theory that education is all about taking people who are not good at something and turning them into people who are good at it. The standard of Irish teaching is abysmal - again it seems to me the logical conclusion is to improve the standard of Irish teaching rather than abandon the language.

Diorraing

Sand wrote:

The problem imo was more the importance assigned to Irish, youd never see say, Economics and Maths linked like that. I doubt youd even see English and Maths linked like that. It was complete and utter foolishness, but it is typical of the way Irish is treated in this country. Its dead, but no one can admit it.

Listen love, Education isn't about preparing people for jobs. If you look at its etymology it stems from the Latin educo meaning to lead out, to inspire. The likes of you would have our education system degenerated into factories creating an uncultured, limited student. I can imagine the subjects students will take in 10 years: Maths, Economics, Physics, Chemistry, Accounting, Business Studies, Biology - subjects in which you are told the right and wrong answers, not made to think for yourself. How tedious. Perhaps you should read Patrick Pearse's Murder Machine...I know, I know..."I'm not goin to touch anything by that bloodthirsty terrorist, what did that brute know about education" - please read it and don't give this type of response.
Anyway what you're calling for is the abandonment of a language which contains 2000 years of precedent law as well as the earliest vernacular literature in europe and which was the language spoken for almost 2 millennia by those whose blood is directly related to ours for century after century.
How can you say that it is dead? Even the most rabidly anti-Irish snobs know that it is spoken by a great many people. Need I remind you again that Hebrew was spoken by no-one but resurrected by the Jewish people.

Sand

Listen love,

Why Diorraing, I never suspected!

Education isn't about preparing people for jobs. If you look at its etymology it stems from the Latin educo meaning to lead out, to inspire. The likes of you would have our education system degenerated into factories creating an uncultured, limited student. I can imagine the subjects students will take in 10 years: Maths, Economics, Physics, Chemistry, Accounting, Business Studies, Biology - subjects in which you are told the right and wrong answers, not made to think for yourself. How tedious. Perhaps you should read Patrick Pearse's Murder Machine...I know, I know..."I'm not goin to touch anything by that bloodthirsty terrorist, what did that brute know about education" - please read it and don't give this type of response.

Maths, Economics, Physics, Chemistry (alright, maybe not accounting) Business Studies and Biology are all subjects where you are thought to think for yourself and where anyone can still make discoveries that turn the established "truth" on its head.

Irish is a language, and like any language people *are* told the right and wrong answers and given little or no room for creative thinking - how else can people communicate in Irish unless they both know the *right* way to do it and dont deviate significantly from it?

As for Pearse, hes dead. His views on the challenges facing the irish education system in 2005 are limited in that respect.

Anyway what you're calling for is the abandonment of a language which contains 2000 years of precedent law as well as the earliest vernacular literature in europe and which was the language spoken for almost 2 millennia by those whose blood is directly related to ours for century after century.

Im not calling for its abandonment Diorraing - if you want to study it, fire away. I will not *force* you to not study a language you claim to love. Do not *force* me or anyone else to study a language they do not love simply because it satisfies monocultural nationalist wishful thinking.

How can you say that it is dead? Even the most rabidly anti-Irish snobs know that it is spoken by a great many people. Need I remind you again that Hebrew was spoken by no-one but resurrected by the Jewish people.

Who? Ive only met two Irish speakers in all the time since I left school and they remarked and rejoiced at finding each other so they could actually converse in Irish because they both claimed it was impossible for them to speak Irish to anyone.

And regarding Hewbrew, please! Hewbrew was ressurected by a diverse people landed in a strange land surrounded by hostile neighbours who wanted to drive them into the sea, driving ultra nationalism and a seige mentality. Whilst the Provos are still bitterly fighting a mental rearguard action somewhere back in the mid 17th century those conditions do not apply in Ireland.

Diorraing

Sand wrote:

Maths, Economics, Physics, Chemistry (alright, maybe not accounting) Business Studies and Biology are all subjects where you are thought to think for yourself and where anyone can still make discoveries that turn the established "truth" on its head.

Yeah, right. So students come up with new Physics formulae, discover new elements everyday - give me a break. Subjects in which you are truely taught to think "outside the box" are subjects with literature involved. To a certain extent Maths/Applied Maths aswell. If you abolish compulsary Irish, English will soon follow (and that would be a tragic loss aswell). The emphasis in the education system is on future jobs (which should be the job of universaties) - as mentioned earlier, studying Shakespeare or Wordsworth aren't exactly job credentials. The philistines will chop that off too.

Sand wrote:

Irish is a language, and like any language people *are* told the right and wrong answers and given little or no room for creative thinking - how else can people communicate in Irish unless they both know the *right* way to do it and dont deviate significantly from it?

No, they're not. In the literature section you have to come up with your own interpretation of poems and stories. Obviously reform is needed so that pupils will have a sufficient level of Irish to deal with them.
If I tried to give my own interpretation of Mathematics I'd be shot through the head. There are strict rules which must be followed (which is great, but subjects are needed where you don't just learn the formulae out of books).

Sand wrote:

Im not calling for its abandonment Diorraing - if you want to study it, fire away. I will not *force* you to not study a language you claim to love. Do not *force* me or anyone else to study a language they do not love simply because it satisfies monocultural nationalist wishful thinking.

How will you know whether you love it or not unless you are compelled to study it? Everyone (bar the philistines) accept that Irish is a vital part of our national identity and should be preserved. French speak French, Italiens speak Italien, Germans speak German, why shouldn't the Irish speak Irish. I'm no defeatest. I know that the Irish language can make a comeback - it won't if people like your goodself try blocking people from learning it.
And thats what you will be doing. What happens when there's only one student who wants to do Irish in the class? Will the school provide for him?

Sand wrote:

Who? Ive only met two Irish speakers in all the time since I left school and they remarked and rejoiced at finding each other so they could actually converse in Irish because they both claimed it was impossible for them to speak Irish to anyone.

You need to get out more often! The reason people might not speak it all the time is cause they get stared at by your likes, as if we were sub-human - its happened to me but a couldn't give a sh!t what people think. They're the ignorant ones.

Sand wrote:

And regarding Hewbrew, please! Hewbrew was ressurected by a diverse people landed in a strange land surrounded by hostile neighbours who wanted to drive them into the sea, driving ultra nationalism and a seige mentality. Whilst the Provos are still bitterly fighting a mental rearguard action somewhere back in the mid 17th century those conditions do not apply in Ireland.

It was resurrected all the same - because a will existed. A will would exist in Ireland if we educated our children in the right manner - if we taught them the importance of having a national language and made the learning of it easier for them. Didn't take long for your arguments to degenerate into Provo bashing. Its what you're most comfortable at probably. What the hell have they got to do with the argument? I know it can be frustrating when you're losing the argument but arguing a different point makes it even more obvious that you're logic is flawed

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

Listen love,

Sand wrote:

Why Diorraing, I never suspected!

An rud is annamh is íontach

Big Ears

Diorraing wrote:

I know that the Irish language can make a comeback - it won't if people like your goodself try blocking people from learning it.
And thats what you will be doing. What happens when there's only one student who wants to do Irish in the class? Will the school provide for him?


You need to get out more often! The reason people might not speak it all the time is cause they get stared at by your likes, as if we were sub-human - its happened to me but a couldn't give a sh!t what people think. They're the ignorant ones.


It was resurrected all the same - because a will existed. A will would exist in Ireland if we educated our children in the right manner - if we taught them the importance of having a national language and made the learning of it easier for them. Didn't take long for your arguments to degenerate into Provo bashing. Its what you're most comfortable at probably. What the hell have they got to do with the argument? I know it can be frustrating when you're losing the argument but arguing a different point makes it even more obvious that you're logic is flawed

Make a comeback....................from when 800/900 years ago when the language was probably as different from now as olde English is to modern English . I have nothing against the Irish language becoming widely spoken and part of people's everday lives but it would be more of a coming than a comeback .

Sand doesn't seem like he's blocking anything to me , he's not proposing a ban on the language only stating that it should be optional , which would still leave does that want to study it to study it . You said what if only one student wants to do Irish in a class , well if only one student wants to do it then it would indicate that the language actually is dead (I beleive it's on life support at the moment and has been for a very very long time) and that there is no need for it .

I never hear people speak Irish when i'm out , never but if I did I certainly wouldn't look down at people for doing so and I doubt anyone here including sand (I can't believe i'm defending sand :eek: ) would either .

The will the ressurect the language came mainly from trying to distance ourselves from Britain , you say a will would exist now if we educated our children in the right manner , are you proposing we educate children to think what we want and not think for themselves ?

The importance of having a national language isn't that great (and that's coming from someome who is quite patriotic and proud of their country) however I think we all agree on making it easier to learn and I believe some people have made great points about that in this thread ; such as the learning and discussing poetry without having a proper grasp of the language .

Diorraing

To give you some credit tho Big Ears you summed up the anti-Irish language lobbies arguments: "There is no need for it" - which translates into: "it can't make money for me". Is this how low we have stooped? Are we willing to throw away one of our few remaining scraps of identity for want of more money? What will replace Irish? Business? Economics? Budgeting? - Do you not see that Irish is far more important to us than any of these. If you can't, I truly pity you. I pity the society that would make the earning of money more important than national identity, than culture.

ishmael whale

Diorraing wrote:

Education isn't about preparing people for jobs.

I totally agree, but failing to teach people Irish is hardly the way to draw out or inspire them. That’s where the debate needs to be and, encouragingly, is where at least some contributors to this thread who value the language are coming from.

Diorraing wrote:

French speak French, Italiens speak Italien, Germans speak German, why shouldn't the Irish speak Irish.

Some of these arguments could be numbered and answered by rote. Should I add “The Belgians speak, er, the Swiss speak, oh, the Australians speak, em, the Austrians speak, da” or can we get back to the point?

Diorraing wrote:

Are we willing to throw away one of our few remaining scraps of identity for want of more money?

Ironically, many Irish language activists justify granting Irish EU status on grounds of ‘jobs for the boys’ so money seems to be on everyones mind. However, the point is that we are spending €500 million failing to teach Irish. If we took a portion of that money and used it elsewhere the position of the language would actually be unchanged.

Diorraing wrote:

(bar the philistines) accept that Irish is a vital part of our national identity and should be preserved.

Irish is not, actually, a significant part of the national identity of most Irish people and forms no real part of their daily lives. Or, put another way, your statement half amounts to saying a fair proportion of the Irish people are philistines, and even has faint echoes of the idea of the ‘true Gael’ that Flann O’Brien lampooned in An Beal Bocht.

Failure by many to simply acknowledge the present state of Irish is a considerable part of the problem in addressing this agenda.