Hanafin attacks Kenny over Irish proposal

Cork

dr zoidberg wrote:

but the way it is being taught needs a complete overhaul. .

This is long over due.



Making the Irish language compulsory has failed.

Giving extra points for doing an exam thru Irish is also pointless.

Making Irish an offical EU language is also an error.

We need to rationlise the amount of languages in the EU. This will soon come.

It is about time supporters of the Irish language copped themselves to dealing with the language and stopped with dealing with side issues.

Sand

It seems to me you haven't drawn the logical conclusion from your experiences. The problem in your case wasn't the Irish language, or your lack of proficiency with it: the problem was the braindead procedure for connecting the levels of Irish and maths. Ergo, the logical conclusion is that Irish should be taught in a less braindead manner.

The problem imo was more the importance assigned to Irish, youd never see say, Economics and Maths linked like that. I doubt youd even see English and Maths linked like that. It was complete and utter foolishness, but it is typical of the way Irish is treated in this country. Its dead, but no one can admit it. If you passed a law tommorrow banning people from speaking English, the country would either ignore it or collapse. If you banned people from speaking Irish tommorrow only the Gaelic Leaguers would notice.

Who are these people? You referring to posters here or public representatives?

Theres a picture in the Times today of Enda Kenny addressing a crowd with a speaker phone outside FGs HQ. Those are the people Im talking about. Even a hint of a proposal had a hundred or so people out at his doorstep - and these are the people who took a day of work (assuming theyre not dancing at the crossroads themselves) to do it. Was I out at Enda Kennys doorstep to register my support and tell him what a good job he was doing? Nah. The feedback Kenny and all politicians get is from the extremists. Is it any wonder then we have our politicians off wasting everyones time with stupid symbolism like getting Irish made an official language of the EU? Ive yet to meet anyone who thinks "Yeah, great idea. Our hospitals are falling apart but lets get that Irish language thing sorted!" But fixing hospitals is hard, whilst humouring fanatics is much easier and more rewarding politically.

Thats why Bertie, in response to Kenny, mumbled and fumbled a sitting firmly on the fence response where he announced changes should be made but the language should be kept compulsory. Its ignoring the reality that nobody speaks the language, but it keeps the voting base happy in their dreamworld. Its the stuff of Hitler in his bunker with imaginary armies driving back the Soviets in 1945.

I'm a survivor of a piss-poor Irish education, and my fondness for the language is very much in spite of the way it was taught. I saw my old Irish teacher a few months ago, and even 18 years later I had to suppress an urge to drive over him.

If you describe yourself as a survivor of the system, why do you think forcing people to take a subject that they mightnt be any good at (there are people who simply are poor at picking up new languages) and there is no practical use for ( Maths has a practical use, even if youre poor at it. The same for English ) is going to work any better than it did in your case?

oscarBravo

Sand wrote:

Its ignoring the reality that nobody speaks the language...

...except that that's not the reality. Maybe you missed my post about a public meeting where almost everyone automatically spoke Irish as their first language.

Sand wrote:

If you describe yourself as a survivor of the system, why do you think forcing people to take a subject that they mightnt be any good at (there are people who simply are poor at picking up new languages) and there is no practical use for ( Maths has a practical use, even if youre poor at it. The same for English ) is going to work any better than it did in your case?

I have this strange theory that education is all about taking people who are not good at something and turning them into people who are good at it. The standard of Irish teaching is abysmal - again it seems to me the logical conclusion is to improve the standard of Irish teaching rather than abandon the language.

Diorraing

Sand wrote:

The problem imo was more the importance assigned to Irish, youd never see say, Economics and Maths linked like that. I doubt youd even see English and Maths linked like that. It was complete and utter foolishness, but it is typical of the way Irish is treated in this country. Its dead, but no one can admit it.

Listen love, Education isn't about preparing people for jobs. If you look at its etymology it stems from the Latin educo meaning to lead out, to inspire. The likes of you would have our education system degenerated into factories creating an uncultured, limited student. I can imagine the subjects students will take in 10 years: Maths, Economics, Physics, Chemistry, Accounting, Business Studies, Biology - subjects in which you are told the right and wrong answers, not made to think for yourself. How tedious. Perhaps you should read Patrick Pearse's Murder Machine...I know, I know..."I'm not goin to touch anything by that bloodthirsty terrorist, what did that brute know about education" - please read it and don't give this type of response.
Anyway what you're calling for is the abandonment of a language which contains 2000 years of precedent law as well as the earliest vernacular literature in europe and which was the language spoken for almost 2 millennia by those whose blood is directly related to ours for century after century.
How can you say that it is dead? Even the most rabidly anti-Irish snobs know that it is spoken by a great many people. Need I remind you again that Hebrew was spoken by no-one but resurrected by the Jewish people.

Sand

Listen love,

Why Diorraing, I never suspected!

Education isn't about preparing people for jobs. If you look at its etymology it stems from the Latin educo meaning to lead out, to inspire. The likes of you would have our education system degenerated into factories creating an uncultured, limited student. I can imagine the subjects students will take in 10 years: Maths, Economics, Physics, Chemistry, Accounting, Business Studies, Biology - subjects in which you are told the right and wrong answers, not made to think for yourself. How tedious. Perhaps you should read Patrick Pearse's Murder Machine...I know, I know..."I'm not goin to touch anything by that bloodthirsty terrorist, what did that brute know about education" - please read it and don't give this type of response.

Maths, Economics, Physics, Chemistry (alright, maybe not accounting) Business Studies and Biology are all subjects where you are thought to think for yourself and where anyone can still make discoveries that turn the established "truth" on its head.

Irish is a language, and like any language people *are* told the right and wrong answers and given little or no room for creative thinking - how else can people communicate in Irish unless they both know the *right* way to do it and dont deviate significantly from it?

As for Pearse, hes dead. His views on the challenges facing the irish education system in 2005 are limited in that respect.

Anyway what you're calling for is the abandonment of a language which contains 2000 years of precedent law as well as the earliest vernacular literature in europe and which was the language spoken for almost 2 millennia by those whose blood is directly related to ours for century after century.

Im not calling for its abandonment Diorraing - if you want to study it, fire away. I will not *force* you to not study a language you claim to love. Do not *force* me or anyone else to study a language they do not love simply because it satisfies monocultural nationalist wishful thinking.

How can you say that it is dead? Even the most rabidly anti-Irish snobs know that it is spoken by a great many people. Need I remind you again that Hebrew was spoken by no-one but resurrected by the Jewish people.

Who? Ive only met two Irish speakers in all the time since I left school and they remarked and rejoiced at finding each other so they could actually converse in Irish because they both claimed it was impossible for them to speak Irish to anyone.

And regarding Hewbrew, please! Hewbrew was ressurected by a diverse people landed in a strange land surrounded by hostile neighbours who wanted to drive them into the sea, driving ultra nationalism and a seige mentality. Whilst the Provos are still bitterly fighting a mental rearguard action somewhere back in the mid 17th century those conditions do not apply in Ireland.

Diorraing

Sand wrote:

Maths, Economics, Physics, Chemistry (alright, maybe not accounting) Business Studies and Biology are all subjects where you are thought to think for yourself and where anyone can still make discoveries that turn the established "truth" on its head.

Yeah, right. So students come up with new Physics formulae, discover new elements everyday - give me a break. Subjects in which you are truely taught to think "outside the box" are subjects with literature involved. To a certain extent Maths/Applied Maths aswell. If you abolish compulsary Irish, English will soon follow (and that would be a tragic loss aswell). The emphasis in the education system is on future jobs (which should be the job of universaties) - as mentioned earlier, studying Shakespeare or Wordsworth aren't exactly job credentials. The philistines will chop that off too.

Sand wrote:

Irish is a language, and like any language people *are* told the right and wrong answers and given little or no room for creative thinking - how else can people communicate in Irish unless they both know the *right* way to do it and dont deviate significantly from it?

No, they're not. In the literature section you have to come up with your own interpretation of poems and stories. Obviously reform is needed so that pupils will have a sufficient level of Irish to deal with them.
If I tried to give my own interpretation of Mathematics I'd be shot through the head. There are strict rules which must be followed (which is great, but subjects are needed where you don't just learn the formulae out of books).

Sand wrote:

Im not calling for its abandonment Diorraing - if you want to study it, fire away. I will not *force* you to not study a language you claim to love. Do not *force* me or anyone else to study a language they do not love simply because it satisfies monocultural nationalist wishful thinking.

How will you know whether you love it or not unless you are compelled to study it? Everyone (bar the philistines) accept that Irish is a vital part of our national identity and should be preserved. French speak French, Italiens speak Italien, Germans speak German, why shouldn't the Irish speak Irish. I'm no defeatest. I know that the Irish language can make a comeback - it won't if people like your goodself try blocking people from learning it.
And thats what you will be doing. What happens when there's only one student who wants to do Irish in the class? Will the school provide for him?

Sand wrote:

Who? Ive only met two Irish speakers in all the time since I left school and they remarked and rejoiced at finding each other so they could actually converse in Irish because they both claimed it was impossible for them to speak Irish to anyone.

You need to get out more often! The reason people might not speak it all the time is cause they get stared at by your likes, as if we were sub-human - its happened to me but a couldn't give a sh!t what people think. They're the ignorant ones.

Sand wrote:

And regarding Hewbrew, please! Hewbrew was ressurected by a diverse people landed in a strange land surrounded by hostile neighbours who wanted to drive them into the sea, driving ultra nationalism and a seige mentality. Whilst the Provos are still bitterly fighting a mental rearguard action somewhere back in the mid 17th century those conditions do not apply in Ireland.

It was resurrected all the same - because a will existed. A will would exist in Ireland if we educated our children in the right manner - if we taught them the importance of having a national language and made the learning of it easier for them. Didn't take long for your arguments to degenerate into Provo bashing. Its what you're most comfortable at probably. What the hell have they got to do with the argument? I know it can be frustrating when you're losing the argument but arguing a different point makes it even more obvious that you're logic is flawed

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

Listen love,

Sand wrote:

Why Diorraing, I never suspected!

An rud is annamh is íontach

Big Ears

Diorraing wrote:

I know that the Irish language can make a comeback - it won't if people like your goodself try blocking people from learning it.
And thats what you will be doing. What happens when there's only one student who wants to do Irish in the class? Will the school provide for him?


You need to get out more often! The reason people might not speak it all the time is cause they get stared at by your likes, as if we were sub-human - its happened to me but a couldn't give a sh!t what people think. They're the ignorant ones.


It was resurrected all the same - because a will existed. A will would exist in Ireland if we educated our children in the right manner - if we taught them the importance of having a national language and made the learning of it easier for them. Didn't take long for your arguments to degenerate into Provo bashing. Its what you're most comfortable at probably. What the hell have they got to do with the argument? I know it can be frustrating when you're losing the argument but arguing a different point makes it even more obvious that you're logic is flawed

Make a comeback....................from when 800/900 years ago when the language was probably as different from now as olde English is to modern English . I have nothing against the Irish language becoming widely spoken and part of people's everday lives but it would be more of a coming than a comeback .

Sand doesn't seem like he's blocking anything to me , he's not proposing a ban on the language only stating that it should be optional , which would still leave does that want to study it to study it . You said what if only one student wants to do Irish in a class , well if only one student wants to do it then it would indicate that the language actually is dead (I beleive it's on life support at the moment and has been for a very very long time) and that there is no need for it .

I never hear people speak Irish when i'm out , never but if I did I certainly wouldn't look down at people for doing so and I doubt anyone here including sand (I can't believe i'm defending sand :eek: ) would either .

The will the ressurect the language came mainly from trying to distance ourselves from Britain , you say a will would exist now if we educated our children in the right manner , are you proposing we educate children to think what we want and not think for themselves ?

The importance of having a national language isn't that great (and that's coming from someome who is quite patriotic and proud of their country) however I think we all agree on making it easier to learn and I believe some people have made great points about that in this thread ; such as the learning and discussing poetry without having a proper grasp of the language .

Diorraing

To give you some credit tho Big Ears you summed up the anti-Irish language lobbies arguments: "There is no need for it" - which translates into: "it can't make money for me". Is this how low we have stooped? Are we willing to throw away one of our few remaining scraps of identity for want of more money? What will replace Irish? Business? Economics? Budgeting? - Do you not see that Irish is far more important to us than any of these. If you can't, I truly pity you. I pity the society that would make the earning of money more important than national identity, than culture.

ishmael whale

Diorraing wrote:

Education isn't about preparing people for jobs.

I totally agree, but failing to teach people Irish is hardly the way to draw out or inspire them. That’s where the debate needs to be and, encouragingly, is where at least some contributors to this thread who value the language are coming from.

Diorraing wrote:

French speak French, Italiens speak Italien, Germans speak German, why shouldn't the Irish speak Irish.

Some of these arguments could be numbered and answered by rote. Should I add “The Belgians speak, er, the Swiss speak, oh, the Australians speak, em, the Austrians speak, da” or can we get back to the point?

Diorraing wrote:

Are we willing to throw away one of our few remaining scraps of identity for want of more money?

Ironically, many Irish language activists justify granting Irish EU status on grounds of ‘jobs for the boys’ so money seems to be on everyones mind. However, the point is that we are spending €500 million failing to teach Irish. If we took a portion of that money and used it elsewhere the position of the language would actually be unchanged.

Diorraing wrote:

(bar the philistines) accept that Irish is a vital part of our national identity and should be preserved.

Irish is not, actually, a significant part of the national identity of most Irish people and forms no real part of their daily lives. Or, put another way, your statement half amounts to saying a fair proportion of the Irish people are philistines, and even has faint echoes of the idea of the ‘true Gael’ that Flann O’Brien lampooned in An Beal Bocht.

Failure by many to simply acknowledge the present state of Irish is a considerable part of the problem in addressing this agenda.

Diorraing

ishmael whale wrote:

I totally agree, but failing to teach people Irish is hardly the way to draw out or inspire them.

Thats because its not taught properly. To make Irish optional would lead the way to business studies or something else becoming compulsary. In the sense of "education" there is far more to gain from Irish than business and science subjects. To do away with compulsary Irish would be another step towards turning schools into factories - manufacturing robots. Literature is the best way to develop the mind - business and all that should be left until University

ishmael whale

Diorraing wrote:

Thats because its not taught properly.

No disagreement there. Unfortunately, after making this sensible point you seem to just throw out any old thing that might possibly be a reason for removing the compulsory element.

Diorraing wrote:

To make Irish optional would lead the way to business studies or something else becoming compulsary.

That simply does not follow. Making Irish optional would simply leave two compulsory subjects and more choice. In and of itself that’s hardly a bad thing.

Diorraing wrote:

In the sense of "education" there is far more to gain from Irish than business and science subjects.

Many would contest your implicit view that science does not contribute to education. At present the Irish educational system is massively biased towards the humanities. Tipping the balance a little in the other direction is hardly to be resisted.

Diorraing wrote:

To do away with compulsary Irish would be another step towards turning schools into factories - manufacturing robots.

This point doesn’t relate to reality at all. Compulsory Irish simply leads to unmotivated students going through the motions, so we end up spending €500 million for no benefit (by benefit I mean no-one gaining an appreciation of the language, in case you misinterpret). Presumably Irish teachers are similarly unmotivated, as the State is giving them a captive audience. All that removing the compulsion element does is raise the prospect to some of those resources getting used for some positive outcome. Given that currently our schoolchildren rate poorly in international test comparsions, this can only be a good thing.

Diorraing wrote:

Literature is the best way to develop the mind - business and all that should be left until University

I think its frightening how willing you seem to be to sacrifice the whole educational system just to protect the status of Irish.

Diorraing

ishmael whale wrote:

No disagreement there. Unfortunately, after making this sensible point you seem to just throw out any old thing that might possibly be a reason for removing the compulsory element. That simply does not follow. Making Irish optional would simply leave two compulsory subjects and more choice.

Choice. What will be chosen? Philosophy? Latin? Classics? Hardly. Irish will be sacrificed for some joke of a subject like Home Ec, Business or C.S.P.E. And don't be so naive to think that English won't become optional aswell. People will begin to see that there is no "practical" importance of the English L.C course and that'll be sacrificed as well

ishmael whale wrote:

Many would contest your implicit view that science does not contribute to education.

I think science should be taught, definately - along with some subjects which force students to think for themselves (literature, philosophy and to an extent history)[/QUOTE]

ishmael whale wrote:

so we end up spending €500 million for no benefit (by benefit I mean no-one gaining an appreciation of the language, in case you misinterpret). Presumably Irish teachers are similarly unmotivated, as the State is giving them a captive audience. All that removing the compulsion element does is raise the prospect to some of those resources getting used for some positive outcome. Given that currently our schoolchildren rate poorly in international test comparsions, this can only be a good thing. I think its frightening how willing you seem to be to sacrifice the whole educational system just to protect the status of Irish.

I'm not the one sacrificing our students education. That'd be you. What Fine Gael are proposing is that we in effect remove Irish from the education system (you can't cram Irish like other subjects - therefore students are going to choses easier, more crammable subjects for the L.C because of points system). This would be severly damaging to our children's cultural and intellectual education. Irish is one of the few subjects where there is no right and wrong answer (apart from grammar naturally). What FF are planning to do is the right thing. See how we can improve the teaching of the language, don't just discard it to make way for a less challenging subject

billy the squid

If hannafin is so optimistic that Irish is so well supported then she has nothing to worry about, those leaving Cert students will be queueing up to take up irish for the leaving.

just another case of politicians who like to see their name in print or their ugly mug on TV.

Diorraing

billy the squid wrote:

If hannafin is so optimistic that Irish is so well supported then she has nothing to worry about, those leaving Cert students will be queueing up to take up irish for the leaving.

Thats just oversimplifying the issue completely. As mentioned earlier, Irish is not a crammable subject like sciences or business. It is about abiliity accquired over time. Because of the points system students will pick the subjects that are easier and more "crammable" as opposed to ones they really like and have an interest in. Thats why LC students won't be queing up to take it

ishmael whale

Diorraing wrote:

I'm not the one sacrificing our students education. That'd be you.

In fairness, your contributions seem to be becoming increasingly desparate. I think you can see that there is really no reason for retaining the compulsory requirement.

Diorraing wrote:

What Fine Gael are proposing is that we in effect remove Irish from the education system.

This is pure nonsense. What they propose is removing the compulsion at leaving cert stage.

Diorraing wrote:

This would be severly damaging to our children's cultural and intellectual education.

You obviously can't deal with the plain reality that at the moment the €500 million devoted to Irish is achieving nothing. How does failing to learn a language contribute to someone's education?.

Diorraing wrote:

See how we can improve the teaching of the language, don't just discard it to make way for a less challenging subject

The 'challenging subject' stuff is pure fantasy. The essential difficulty in Irish is the way that its taught as if its already our native language, rather than accepting it should be taught to most people as if it was a foriegn language. So I've an even better option. Make the language optional, and see if you can improve the teaching method. That way you'll actually end up with more people able to speak it and fewer with a chip about it. Which I would have thought is a large amount of what we want to achieve.

Sand

Yeah, right. So students come up with new Physics formulae, discover new elements everyday - give me a break.

Yeah they do actually. Invention, research and discovery didnt stop in 1934.

Subjects in which you are truely taught to think "outside the box" are subjects with literature involved.

I dont agree. I got an A in my leaving cert English, not for thinking outside the box with regards to poetry, essay and short stories/novels but by giving the examiners what I had been told to think about these poems and stories.

How will you know whether you love it or not unless you are compelled to study it?

People are talking after the leaving cert. Plenty of oppurtunity prior to that for people to discover their love for it, if it exists.

French speak French, Italiens speak Italien, Germans speak German, why shouldn't the Irish speak Irish.

Because the "irish" language you refer to is actually Gaelic, and the Irish people as we are today are a direct result of our history of waves of immigration/conquest by the Scandinavians, the Normans, the English and the Scots. Now we have a new "wave" as such of immigration from abroad. Were Irish, but were not Gaels by default. You need to broaden your definition of what Irish is, rather than try to force everything to conform to a particular monoculture.

The reason people might not speak it all the time is cause they get stared at by your likes, as if we were sub-human

I wouldnt stare at you as if you were subhuman, I simply wouldnt have a breeze what you were saying and instead talk to someone else who I could understand. Which is the purpose of language.

(I can't believe i'm defending sand )

Yeah, youd want to watch out for that.

Thats just oversimplifying the issue completely. As mentioned earlier, Irish is not a crammable subject like sciences or business.

But its a subject that all good Irish nationalists *love*, and we all apparently are speaking it all the time. No one feels nationalistic about maths, nor do they spend hours all day chatting in mathematical equations to each other. I think Irish has little to fear from optional status for the leaving in such an enviroment as you describe existing.

billy the squid

Diorraing wrote:

Thats just oversimplifying the issue completely. As mentioned earlier, Irish is not a crammable subject like sciences or business. It is about abiliity accquired over time. Because of the points system students will pick the subjects that are easier and more "crammable" as opposed to ones they really like and have an interest in. Thats why LC students won't be queing up to take it

Why not, french, italian, German Spannish seem to be crammible as they are optional in most schools.

So what your saying so is that Mary hannifins is telling lies when she says that irish is supported. If it is not supported then why have it rammed down peoples throats.

Irish has an advantage over other languages as it is taught from primary school.

Diorraing

billy the squid wrote:

Why not, french, italian, German Spannish seem to be crammible as they are optional in most schools.

So what your saying so is that Mary hannifins is telling lies when she says that irish is supported. If it is not supported then why have it rammed down peoples throats.

Irish has an advantage over other languages as it is taught from primary school.

A European language is compulsory along with Irish. Thats why people take either french, italian, german and Spannish. I'd like to see you calling for them to be optional too.

Calina

Diorraing wrote:

A European language is compulsory along with Irish. Thats why people take either french, italian, german and Spannish. I'd like to see you calling for them to be optional too.

I'm not sure this is strictly speaking correct. A European language is necessary for entry into a lot of of university courses, but I'm pretty certain it's not a legally required element of a Leaving Certificate in the way that Irish is.

In any case, I have to say that I'd be hard pressed to agree that any of the foreign languages are particularly well taught here, because even with honours leaving certificate French, the average Irish person would be hard pressed to conduct a conversation in French as fluently as a French with bacc level English.

The reason for that is we start teaching the European languages far, far too late. Realistically we should start at 10 if at all possible but this is not available across the board.

As to whether Irish should be mandatory or not - when Irish is no longer an official language of the country, then they can decide to make it non-core. The fact that it is not the most commonly spoken language is of lesser relevance in that. What needs to be done however is a total overhaul of how we teach all non-native languages and I'd have a lot more respect for Enda Kenny if he addressed teaching quality issues rather than going for an easy target. Removing the compulsory nature of Irish does not address issues surrounding teaching quality of any subject at all, and frankly, I would have to say it's a bigger issue for me than Irish.

ishmael whale

I thought the position was not that a foreign language is compulsory, just that it is very advisable to take one, or your post leaving cert options will be limited.

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/senior_cycle_options.pdf?language=EN The majority of senior cycle students take the established Leaving Certificate. Achievement in the Leaving Certificate examination is the basis upon which places in third level institutions are allocated. …. Students taking the established Leaving Certificate programme must take at least five subjects, of which one must be Irish.

Can I point out that at this stage you seem to have given up even trying to justify the retention of compulsory Irish, and seem to be simply grumping. Why the need to defend a position that you must see at this stage is just plain wrong?

Diorraing

ishmael whale wrote:

Can I point out that at this stage you seem to have given up even trying to justify the retention of compulsory Irish, and seem to be simply grumping. Why the need to defend a position that you must see at this stage is just plain wrong?

What the hell are you talking about? I haven't given up trying to justify the retention of compulsory Irish at all. What i've done is presented a logical argument for its retention. I'll set my arguments clearly for you:
- If compulsory Irish is abolished, not many students will sit it at all. This is not because of any dislike for the language but beacuse of the cruel points system which forces them to pick subjects that are "crammable" and easier - not the subjects that they actually like. Therefore the argument that this would be doing Irish any favours is refuted.
- The abolition of compulsory Irish would surely lead to the abolition of compulsory English and Maths (which everyone seems to agree would be a bad thing). Most of the argument used against compulsory Irish can be used against compulsoy Maths or English - all this "ramming it into my head" nonsense. For most people there is little or no use for L.C English (you don't actually learn to speak English, you just study literature). As for Maths, only people going on to study Science or Maths or Engineering really need an L.C standard.
- The next point kinda follows on from the last one. The three compulsory L.C subjects are the only ones in which students are taught to think outside the box. In literature there are no right and wrong answers. Every other subject from Economics to Chemistry, students are not taught to think creatively. Abolishing compulsory Irish would be another step towards the "factoryisation" of schools - schools becoming factories, telling students what to think, moulding them for specific jobs (which should be left to University)
- It is accepted by all that the Irish curriculum needs to be revamped. Children are not coming into secondary school with sufficient Irish to tackle the literature. Wouldn't it make more sense to revamp the course first and see how the students like it - then if it is still not working, making Irish optional. Revamping the course while at the same time making it optional is slightly contradictory. Many students won't be able to see how an improved course would work and would give Irish up without trying it.
- I would make the point that Irish is key to our identity and make the whole cultural point but there are too many philistines on this board: People who want to scrap Irish because it isn't a means of making money. You can't argue against such ignorance - you can only laugh.

Those are the reasons I oppose making Irish optional. I'm sure there are plenty more but those are the ones that instantly spring to mind. They are logical arguments - not from an Irish language zealot but from someone who doesn't want the eduation system flushed down the drain.

billy the squid

f compulsory Irish is abolished, not many students will sit it at all. This is not because of any dislike for the language but beacuse of the cruel points system which forces them to pick subjects that are "crammable" and easier - not the subjects that they actually like. Therefore the argument that this would be doing Irish any favours is refuted.

If that is the case then Mary Hannifin is lying when she says that Irish has massive support. Like I said, Irish has an advantage over other languages because it is thought from primary school.

The abolition of compulsory Irish would surely lead to the abolition of compulsory English and Maths (which everyone seems to agree would be a bad thing). Most of the argument used against compulsory Irish can be used against compulsoy Maths or English - all this "ramming it into my head" nonsense. For most people there is little or no use for L.C English (you don't actually learn to speak English, you just study literature). As for Maths, only people going on to study Science or Maths or Engineering really need an L.C standard.

The fear that compulsary english and maths is just supposition, I am not aware of any country in the world where maths is optional. as for their uses, English helps with interperson communication, and is the language spoken by the general populace, and maths develops a person's problem solving abilities. Irish is only compulsary for symbolic reasons.

The next point kinda follows on from the last one. The three compulsory L.C subjects are the only ones in which students are taught to think outside the box. In literature there are no right and wrong answers. Every other subject from Economics to Chemistry, students are not taught to think creatively. Abolishing compulsory Irish would be another step towards the "factoryisation" of schools - schools becoming factories, telling students what to think, moulding them for specific jobs (which should be left to University)

Keeping irish is not going to stop this. if you want to blame something for the factoryisation of schools then blame the points system, not the subjects that are taught in schools. Art helps people "think outside the box" and that is optional is it not.

It is accepted by all that the Irish curriculum needs to be revamped. Children are not coming into secondary school with sufficient Irish to tackle the literature. Wouldn't it make more sense to revamp the course first and see how the students like it - then if it is still not working, making Irish optional. Revamping the course while at the same time making it optional is slightly contradictory. Many students won't be able to see how an improved course would work and would give Irish up without trying it.

not if Irish has the amount of support Mary Hannifin thinks it does.

I would make the point that Irish is key to our identity and make the whole cultural point but there are too many philistines on this board: People who want to scrap Irish because it isn't a means of making money. You can't argue against such ignorance - you can only laugh.

The reason Irish is compulsary is because some ultra-nationalist government back in the 1920s or 1930s made it so in an effort to keep a language alive when it is on its death bed. The reason Irish has all its novels and poetry is because some government minister wanted to put it on a par with the language that is spoken by most of the population of Ireland in daily life, which it is not, and never will be again.

Big Ears

Diorraing wrote:

A European language is compulsory along with Irish. Thats why people take either french, italian, german and Spannish. I'd like to see you calling for them to be optional too.

They are optional , maybe your 'knowledge' of the Irish education system isn't what you think it is and I propose you learn more about it before posting further .

Diorraing

Big Ears wrote:

They are optional , maybe your 'knowledge' of the Irish education system isn't what you think it is and I propose you learn more about it before posting further .

OK, by law they are optional but if you want to get into an NUI college and a few others you need a third language. You're not really contributing to the debate by stopping me on minor issues (most people knew what was meant.) This highlites you're inability to debate the issue on its main points.

Diorraing

billy the squid wrote:

The fear that compulsary english and maths is just supposition, I am not aware of any country in the world where maths is optional.

You should visit England

billy the squid

Diorraing wrote:

You should visit England

is mathmatics optional there? in the same way a continental language is compulsary here?

as for visiting, indeed i have, its very pretty.

ishmael whale

Diorraing wrote:

OK, by law they are optional but if you want to get into an NUI college and a few others you need a third language. You're not really contributing to the debate by stopping me on minor issues (most people knew what was meant.) This highlites you're inability to debate the issue on its main points.

Which means that they are not so much compulsory as necessary for certain purposes. From the quote I posted above, it looks like only Irish is strictly compulsory for the Leaving Cert, so its status is unique.

I'm not sure I've anything much to add to billy the squid's comments, but seeing as how I'm here...

You suggest that if compulsory Irish is abolished, not many students will sit it because its not as "crammable" as other subjects. I notice this argument echoes one made by the President of Conradh na Gaelge in this morning’s paper, so I take it this is the line coming out of Gaelic Central. This is the kind of statement that gets made when someone starts from the premise that compulsory Irish must be defended no matter what, and works out from there, rather than looking at the material situation we are in.

You need to start from the real world situation, which is that people leave school with no real appreciation of the language. Hence all the stuff you have been coming out with suggesting that there is some intrinsic educational value to teaching Irish goes out the window. That is simply not our experience. Also, it is utterly meaningless to describe Irish as a subject where people are encouraged to think out of the box or to pretend that dropping compulsion has to do with training people for employment. The practical experience of Irish in schools is it’s a subject where half the class are looking out the window. It is a black hole sucking in €500 million of scarce resources that we need to educate our children, which we are currently failing to do as well as many other countries.

You also have to appreciate that, after spending €500 million a year and its equivalent going back, you have a massive credibility gap to overcome to suggest that educational benefits might yet come our way if we mickey with the syllabus. Might I also say that Irish language activists seem to be only exercised about the need to improve teaching methods when people start saying ‘make it optional’. That’s not a stance that assists the credibility of their sudden conversion to the idea that Irish is on the school curriculum because it has some intrinsic educational value.

Equally you have to simply accept that while Irish might be part of your identity its simply not part of the identity of a vast section of our native people. Hence, justifying compulsion on cultural grounds is showing contempt for their way of life. That contempt is keenly felt and a large part of the reason that English speakers have resisted the imposition of the language. In Dev’s mind we were all meant to be good little Gaelic speakers by now. We’re not. Now, personally, I think its time to take the politics out of language, and simply see Irish as a language we should take reasonable measures to encourage and support. Abolishing compulsory Irish is a necessary part of this process.

Richard

billy the squid wrote:

is mathmatics optional there?.

In England, Wales and Northern Ireland, Mathematics is compulsary to GCSE level (age 16). Same goes for English and Science. In Northern Ireland, a modern language is also compulsary (and Irish can be that language!) to GCSE too, although that requirement will soon be abolished as it already has been in England and Wales. R.E. and P.E. courses must also be followed, though taking a GCSE in them is not compulsary.

At A-Level (post 16), there are no compulsary subjects.

Calina

ishmael whale wrote:

Now, personally, I think its time to take the politics out of language, and simply see Irish as a language we should take reasonable measures to encourage and support. Abolishing compulsory Irish is a necessary part of this process.

While I agree that de-politicising the language is necessary, I have to say that I think you've failed to provide an argument as to how abolishing the compulsory nature of Irish at leaving certificate level would actually do it and to be blunt, most of the politicisation of the language that I have seen here has been from the "remove the obligation" brigade. Its current status as a core and compulsory subject is not evidence of it being politicised. It's evidence of it being an official language in the country, and it has that status by merit of the Constitution and by merit of being the local first language in various parts of the country. In most countries where there is more than one official language, both are core and obligatory until the same stage.

If the question of core subjects is then to be addressed, then all of them, by that I mean English and mathematics too, should come into play, not just Irish.

As it is, it is abundantly clear from this debate that Irish is a nice easy target for discussion as ultimately the debate is funnelled away from biggest issue with the education system in Ireland and into emotive language. The emotive language is coming from both sides, and the central issue of teaching quality is then not addressed. It tells me everything I need to know about people's interest in education in this country as a whole.

Frankly, I'm disappointed. I would have expected more.

ishmael whale

Calina

People will react to the same objective situation in different ways. To be honest, I found responses to the thread generally better than I expected to the extent that no-one was really seeking to pretend that Mary Hanafin’s EU status red herring was anything other than window dressing.

I agree that, if our educational system is failing to perform the debate needs to be wider that simply compulsory Irish. However, if a sizeable chunk of the education budget is vanishing without trace into Irish teaching, I think it has slightly more significance than ‘a nice easy target for discussion’.

I don’t think your implicit assumption that compulsory Irish is a neutral measure holds. Its presence in the Constitution as the first official language is itself highly political. Hence justifying compulsory Irish on grounds of its presence in the Constitution is skirting around the issue, just as making Irish an EU language is a supreme act of denial. Compulsory Irish is a legacy of the failed attempt to revive Irish, as is its Constitutional status. It was not Dev’s intention that the definitive version of the Constitution would be written in a language most citizens could not understand. It was his intention that we would all speak Irish, which was effectively an imposition of a particular view of what an Irish identity consisted of. Very many of us continue to live outside that view of an Irish identity, so compulsory Irish is very much a political tool used to foist some else’s values on us. The neutral position would be choice – bearing in mind that all FG have proposed is removing compulsion at leaving cert. All schoolchildren will still have compulsory Irish up to that point, so its not as if the language is being erased from the curriculum overnight.

Finally, I draw attention the para I posted above from the Department of Education website, This suggests that Irish is actually the only compulsory leaving cert subject at present (which let me stress was news to me yesterday when I looked it up.) So it actually looks like compulsory English and Maths have already been done away with, without any great notice. (If anyone has an inside track on explaining if I’m reading this right, please do post up.)

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/senior_cycle_options.pdf?language=EN The majority of senior cycle students take the established Leaving Certificate. Achievement in the Leaving Certificate examination is the basis upon which places in third level institutions are allocated. …. Students taking the established Leaving Certificate programme must take at least five subjects, of which one must be Irish.

Calina

ishmael whale wrote:

However, if a sizeable chunk of the education budget is vanishing without trace into Irish teaching, I think it has slightly more significance than ‘a nice easy target for discussion’.

Yes, but removing the compulsory nature of Irish at Leaving Certificate level does not in any way address this, whereas addressing teaching quality would.

ishmael whale

This seems to assume that compulsory Irish is a necessary part of the education system. Usually, it is necessary to justify an imposition rather than the reverse.

For what it’s worth, I don’t see how the educational system gains from being forced to promote a contested view of Irish identity, and so far there seems to have been heavy costs. Hence, as an isolated point, I’m happy enough to see compulsion go.

Diorraing

ishmael whale wrote:

I don’t see how the educational system gains from being forced to promote a contested view of Irish identity, and so far there seems to have been heavy costs. Hence, as an isolated point, I’m happy enough to see compulsion go.

How is it a contested view of Irish identity? It is a fact that Irish was spoken by most inhabitants of the island up until recently. We descend from those who spoke the language (many of us still do speak it) and therefore it forms part of our national identity.

ishmael whale

Diorraing wrote:

How is it a contested view of Irish identity?

As I think we’ve mentioned a few times at this stage, very many Irish people go from cradle to grave with the Irish language featuring to any great extent in their lives, despite enormous revival efforts for decades. I don’t regard this as a particularly controversial point. In fact, I think it’s necessary to work at ignoring it.

This, necessarily, means the status of the language as an essential part of our identity is contested. Why? Because it means you are creating a definition of Irish identity which excludes very many, and possibly most, Irish people.

My read of your view is: “In the past, Irish was the normal daily language of most Irish people. At present the Irish language does not feature strongly in the identity of very many, and possibly most, Irish people. Enormous efforts over past decades to revive it as our daily language have failed. However, more Irish people would be willing to accept the language as part of their identity in the future if we found the right way of presenting it to them.”

That’s fine so far as it goes, but hardly a case for compulsory Irish.

CerebralCortex

Diorraing wrote:

You don't learn to speak English in Leaving Cert English! Whatever about using Irish in the future, you're sure as hell never going to use William Wordsworth or Emily Dickinson. You must also be implying, Murphaph, that people who didn't go to secondary school, who didn't do the Leaving Cert are not able to speak proper English - nonsense! As for Math, after the Junior Cert I see no reason to do it unless you're going study it in future or do some complicated business/economics.
The problem with Irish is the way it is taught at primary level. Children should have a fair degree of fluency when they come into secondary school and should then be able to tackle literature - they are not and therefore secondary Irish is a struggle for them.

I like the way you think but a basic maths class thought alot better than the current maths teaching methods is nesscesary but certainly get rid of compulsory english it is alot of work for someone hoping to go into Science or Engineering

CerebralCortex

ishmael whale wrote:

As I think we’ve mentioned a few times at this stage, very many Irish people go from cradle to grave with the Irish language featuring to any great extent in their lives, despite enormous revival efforts for decades. I don’t regard this as a particularly controversial point. In fact, I think it’s necessary to work at ignoring it.

This, necessarily, means the status of the language as an essential part of our identity is contested. Why? Because it means you are creating a definition of Irish identity which excludes very many, and possibly most, Irish people.

My read of your view is: “In the past, Irish was the normal daily language of most Irish people. At present the Irish language does not feature strongly in the identity of very many, and possibly most, Irish people. Enormous efforts over past decades to revive it as our daily language have failed. However, more Irish people would be willing to accept the language as part of their identity in the future if we found the right way of presenting it to them.”

That’s fine so far as it goes, but hardly a case for compulsory Irish.

Very true.

Uthur

All subjects should be optional at leaving cert level. Other countries let their
students choose their subjects and we should too. We should be promoting
choice in schools, not ramming a political agenda down students' throats. It
is madness to force leaving cert maths upon a mathmatically challenged
person, and it is madness to force Shakespeare upon a student who hates
poetry and drama but loves maths. After the junior cert, student's
know what they like and are good at, and what they hate or are crap at.

Likewise, it is madness to force Irish upon someone who is crap at languages
or who is just crap at Irish. It's all about having CHOICE people! God knows
the leaving cert is painful enough for many students - we should at least
let them choose what subjects they are going to be tortured by!

I should also add that I don't think this would 'damage' the Irish language in
any serious way. Lot's of people leave school with very good
French/Spanish/German after choosing to learn it. Irish would be just the
same - many people love it and would still choose to learn it if it were
optional.

Boggle

All this debating about Irish and not one post in Irish.... disapointing!:rolleyes:

Sand

All this debating about Irish and not one post in Irish.... disapointing!

Diorraing said something in Irish. I think.

How is it a contested view of Irish identity? It is a fact that Irish was spoken by most inhabitants of the island up until recently. We descend from those who spoke the language (many of us still do speak it) and therefore it forms part of our national identity.

Wishful thinking to be honest Diorraing.

All subjects should be optional at leaving cert level. Other countries let their students choose their subjects and we should too. We should be promoting choice in schools, not ramming a political agenda down students' throats. It is madness to force leaving cert maths upon a mathmatically challenged person, and it is madness to force Shakespeare upon a student who hates poetry and drama but loves maths. After the junior cert, student's
know what they like and are good at, and what they hate or are crap at.

I disagree on the grounds that two skills that are invaluable in life are a grasp and comfort with maths and a good command of the english language. Theres no political wishful thinking behind that, youll just be placing yourself at a massive disadvantage in practically any course of study or professional career - binmen mightnt need good english/maths but who wants to be a binman? And I dont want to be subsidizing Anto and Deco for the rest of their lives after they took up Art and Music over English and Maths tbh.

Uthur

Sand wrote:

I disagree on the grounds that two skills that are invaluable in life are a grasp and comfort with maths and a good command of the english language.

True, but I don't think these need to be taken all the way to leaving cert
level to make a person literate and numerate enough to function in life.
I don't believe I've ever had any use in RL for the type of maths I did for
the LC. My knowledge of Shakespeare and Dickens, while pleasing to me,
has hardly improved my employment prospects in any way.

Sand wrote:

binmen mightnt need good english/maths but who wants to be a binman?

One or the other would be useful, but generally you would not need both
to become more than a 'binman'. I think you should get to choose which
ones you like and are actually good at.

Sand wrote:

And I dont want to be subsidizing Anto and Deco for the rest of their lives after they took up Art and Music over English and Maths tbh.

The world needs artists and musicians too. If someone is talented enough
to get a good LC in these subjects more power to them I say!

CerebralCortex

I would agree. I certainly feel that all three should not be compulsory. As an Engineering student Hamlet has no relevance but only as a good story, then again Star Wars does the same trick for me. Mathematics on the other hand was relevant due to the nature of my current studies. IMHO a certain level of maths should be thougth but not for points but so all school leavers have a common level of mathematical ability usefull for most problem solving (we're talking quite basic maths). IMO the biggest enemy of all learning and appreciation for what you learn is the Leaving Certificate and it is undue stress to put on mere teenagers who just want to have a good future.

therecklessone

Uthur wrote:

True, but I don't think these need to be taken all the way to leaving cert level to make a person literate and numerate enough to function in life. I don't believe I've ever had any use in RL for the type of maths I did for the LC. My knowledge of Shakespeare and Dickens, while pleasing to me,has hardly improved my employment prospects in any way.

Yes, but you don't simply read poetry and prose for 2 years of LC English, you do essays and reading comprehension. Your command of the language improves considerably, your vocabulary increases. That and more is necessary for just about any 3rd level course, regardless of discipline. Engineering students have to produce reports as well..

As for maths, my experience has been that maths requires an element of repetition and that the longer you are away from maths the less able you are to deal with rather simple problems.

Uthur wrote:

The world needs artists and musicians too. If someone is talented enough to get a good LC in these subjects more power to them I say!

Just a thought. How many people here knew at JC level what career path they wanted to follow and actually achieved that ambition? Not me. I wanted to be an arhitect, so chose Tech Drawing (along with Chemistry, History and German). Of the four optional subjects, only history was of use to me when I got to 3rd level (and I was glad I'd done English) to do Arts (History and Politics). Got my degree, and haven't used it since (work in the vaiation secotr now)