Dublin gardai abusing powers.

LegacyUser

MorningStar wrote:

THe title is about how they are corrupt and abusive. I think they are corrupt and abusive. I am explaining why and what Ithey do

Have you ever been arrested or subjected to this "alleged" corruption and abuse?

MorningStar

bruachain wrote:

If a teenager, i.e. someone under the legal age, is in possession of a controlled substance, in this case alcohol, then there is no question but that it should be confiscated without remit and compensation.

End of story.

No not end of story. Cops do not have the right to beat people up if they see fit. The cops are beating people up and abusing their power. The "allegation" are things I have seen as I grew up. People don't tend to listen to you when you are 16 and the cops know that.
The fact a teenager was found dead in a cop station suggests worse goes on. Donegal cops have proved they can at least be corrupt and good cops don't stand up and stop it.
People I know who are cops admit it is still done makes me think it still goes on.

LegacyUser

MorningStar wrote:

Cops do not have the right to beat people up if they see fit.

Absolutely

MorningStar wrote:

The cops are beating people up and abusing their power.

Completely generalised allegation without any foundation, unless you wish to offer some tangible evidence that would support it?

MorningStar wrote:

People don't tend to listen to you when you are 16 and the cops know that.

Is this actually about the Gardai or have you issues with not being listened to/teenagers not being listened to?

MorningStar wrote:

People I know who are cops admit it is still done makes me think it still goes on.

Admit that what "is still done"?

Regarding my previous question, have you been arrested, or had a run in with the law lately? This seems like a mindless rant with no basis for argument. I stand open to correction if you wish.

MorningStar

bruachain wrote:

Completely generalised allegation without any foundation, unless you wish to offer some tangible evidence that would support it?

Explain what happened in Donegal and the people found dead in cells and the may day police actions. It is fact documented investigated and still ibeing investigated. Cops beside cops said they didn't recognise the cop hitting people and never saw them use excessive violence.Corruption plain and simple

bruachain wrote:

Is this actually about the Gardai or have you issues with not being listened to/teenagers not being listened to?

I am not a teenager but I remember what the cops did.

bruachain wrote:

Admit that what "is still done"?

Read the whole thread I have said what.

bruachain wrote:

Regarding my previous question, have you been arrested, or had a run in with the law lately? This seems like a mindless rant with no basis for argument. I stand open to correction if you wish.

Never but I have had cops hit me, intimidate me and steal from me. Just becasue you haven't doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The cops are nice to certain people and not to others.

Blut

Ive never once heard of someone being beaten up by a garda and Ive had (and so have many of my friends) many run-ins with them for underage drinking, overage drunk&disorderly etc. I reckon people you know are probably just dodgy looking scumbags squaring up to the garda when challenged, they probably deserve a dig or two. That is if youre not just basing your accusations on random rumours.

LegacyUser

MorningStar wrote:

Never but I have had cops hit me, intimidate me and steal from me. Just becasue you haven't doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The cops are nice to certain people and not to others.

I've had this discussion with people before, and the chance of an average, law-abiding citizen either being arrested or having a run in with the law, or even knowing a family member/friend who has either, is neglible.

If you've had some run ins with the Gardai and received some trouble, the chances are you deserved it.

You may be one of these intellectually challenged individuals who has no respect for the law or authority, and who feels the need to blame society/the Gardai/the powers that be/the establishment for your own problems.

MorningStar wrote:

Never but I have had cops hit me, intimidate me and steal from me.

Would you care to enlighten us to the details of this? Until now you've just made generalised comments and allegations which seem to be mostly from hearsay.

MorningStar

bruachain wrote:

I've had this discussion with people before, and the chance of an average, law-abiding citizen either being arrested or having a run in with the law, or even knowing a family member/friend who has either, is neglible.

Nobody in this country is law abiding everybody breaks laws everyday from speeding to jwalking. When you aren't average they pick on you or suspect you.

bruachain wrote:

If you've had some run ins with the Gardai and received some trouble, the chances are you deserved it.

Explain what happened in Donegal where a man who wasn't even murderd managed to be used to jail people. The pub owner who was framed. These people have been proved innocent but using your logic they deserved it.
Explain how the cops got a junkie to admit a crime he didn't commit and give detail of the crime that only the murderer and cops knew. Being guilty of one crime doesn't make you guilty of all.

bruachain wrote:

You may be one of these intellectually challenged individuals who has no respect for the law or authority, and who feels the need to blame society/the Gardai/the powers that be/the establishment for your own problems.

Yes insulting me makes sense because I don't agree with you and have a different experience to you so I must be the problem. Are you a cop because jumping to conclusions like that seems to be their way.

Respect also goes both ways and if you look a certain way or dress a certain way the cops start by disrespecting you.

I have blamed nobody for my actions I hold the Gardai responsible for theirs yet you think they always have a good reason based on no evidence other than their job.

bruachain wrote:

Would you care to enlighten us to the details of this? Until now you've just made generalised comments and allegations which seem to be mostly from hearsay.

Have you read the thread. As a teenager I had cops hit me and take the alcohol off me. I have been stopped and search because they suspected I had drugs on me 5 times in one week and called names while they did this. They stole money from my pockets so I couldn't buy drugs (according to them ) and they took my fags each time too.

Why did they do this? I must be a criminal according to you yet I have never been arrested, charged or suspected of a crime.

LegacyUser

MorningStar wrote:

Have you read the thread. As a teenager I had cops hit me and take the alcohol off me. I have been stopped and search because they suspected I had drugs on me 5 times in one week and called names while they did this. They stole money from my pockets so I couldn't buy drugs (according to them ) and they took my fags each time too.

If you had alcohol or cigarettes as a minor they were absolutely correct in taking them from you. You still havent clarified what the exact situation was?

Is that not the law?

And I think you'll find I never insulted you, I merely suggested you may be someone who thinks like this.

So far you've offered nothing but biased ranting against the Gardai, the majority of whom do a very good job under extremely difficult circumstances. You are tarring them all with the same brush due to the actions of a small minority.

Attitudes like yours only serve to undermine your point of view.

MorningStar

bruachain wrote:

If you had alcohol or cigarettes as a minor they were absolutely correct in taking them from you. You still havent clarified what the exact situation was?

No as a teenager I could smoke from 16 (the law) and at 19 I am leagally able to have alcohol. Assault is breaking the law and I wasn't the one doing it. I am obviously older than you think. Even if I was underage and had alcohol with me they still don't have the right to steal or assult me.

bruachain wrote:

Is that not the law?

NO!
Assaulting a minor is however as is theft of money and possesions is against the law.

bruachain wrote:

And I think you'll find I never insulted you, I merely suggested you may be someone who thinks like this.

Well that would not stand up in a court of law as your intent was to suggest I was as you described and symatics doesn't really hold water. You have obvious distain for my views and experiences.

bruachain wrote:

So far you've offered nothing but biased ranting against the Gardai, the majority of whom do a very good job under extremely difficult circumstances. You are tarring them all with the same brush due to the actions of a small minority.

You didn't read the thread then and keep avoiding the proved cases. The cops that have not done the deed covered for those that have and are therefore compliant

bruachain wrote:

Attitudes like yours only serve to undermine your point of view.

Explain my point of view and how I undermine it. You keep assuming I am some dodgy charcter that went looking for trouble and deserved it. I was a teenager like most others and the police in my area acted and still do act this way. Some of the people the cops mistreated are now hardened criminals that these cops are affraid of.

LegacyUser

MorningStar wrote:

No as a teenager I could smoke from 16 (the law) and at 19 I am leagally able to have alcohol. Assault is breaking the law and I wasn't the one doing it. I am obviously older than you think. Even if I was underage and had alcohol with me they still don't have the right to steal or assult me.

Assaulting a minor is however as is theft of money and possesions is against the law.

Are you suggesting that a Garda taking alcohol from a minor is theft! That's laughable!

MorningStar wrote:

You didn't read the thread then and keep avoiding the proved cases. The cops that have not done the deed covered for those that have and are therefore compliant

I'm not at all defending the cases you've referred to in Donegal etc., I'm fully in agreement that not enough is being done about these situations.

Where I disagree with your argument is in that you seem to be saying that the Gardai as a force are completely corrupt and they all abuse their powers. Beyond making brief references to high profile cases that have been well documented in the press, you have yet to point to any evidence that "Dublin gardai abusing powers", which I believe is the thread title!

MorningStar

bruachain wrote:

Are you suggesting that a Garda taking alcohol from a minor is theft! That's laughable!

Yes it is if they bring it home aand drink it. I also said they stole my money and fags. You conveniently choose to ignore points when it suits you.

bruachain wrote:

I'm not at all defending the cases you've referred to in Donegal etc., I'm fully in agreement that not enough is being done about these situations.

Where I disagree with your argument is in that you seem to be saying that the Gardai as a force are completely corrupt and they all abuse their powers. Beyond making brief references to high profile cases that have been well documented in the press, you have yet to point to any evidence that "Dublin gardai abusing powers", which I believe is the thread title!

I have recounted accounts of Gardai tell me how they abuse their powers. I have stated how they abused their power on me personally. I have seen them do worse to others. THe high profile cases are evidence and prove that it can and does happen. The cops use the same logic to measure how much drugs come into the country. The work it out on the basis that they stop 10% so the amount of drugs coming into the country is ten times that.
THe mayday riots show how bad the corruption is. Video evidence showing cops beating people and cops look at each other claiming thay don't recognise each other. What exactly would convince you other than them doing something to you that their is corruption on a general basis.
I have seen consistant abuse of power while I lived in Dublin you can choose not to believe me.
Did you read the whole thread yet?

J.R.HARTLEY

the problem is morning star you're using donegal (where a relatively small group of gardai were involved, relative to the size of the force, pus it's not dublin, as you said earlier the thread is called dublin gardai abusing powers) and the situation of the youngster found dead in custody, as you pointed out under investigation, anything may have happened to him, so we need to keep an open mind as to why that happened (but wasn't that down the country) anyway the problem for me is you are basing a judgement of all gardai based on these two main points and some run-ins you had, be honest you're probably talking about 5% or less of the gardai in your points, and you're right that it's wrong and it's got to stop but you seem to be tarring all garadai with the same brush.

let me put it to you another way, do you think all priests are child abusers, or all swimming coaches. you are damning an entire group on the perceived action of a tiny minority

LegacyUser

MorningStar wrote:

Yes it is if they bring it home aand drink it. I also said they stole my money and fags. You conveniently choose to ignore points when it suits you.................

........Did you read the whole thread yet?

You conveniently choose to ignore the law! What right do you have as a minor to be in the possession of alcohol, albeit in public or in your house??

Yes, I've read the thread several times. I still fail to get what you're trying to say!?

Would you disagree with the statement that you have a deep dislike of the Gardai?

MorningStar

bruachain wrote:

You conveniently choose to ignore the law! What right do you have as a minor to be in the possession of alcohol, albeit in public or in your house??

As I said I was legally able to have fags and money when I was 16. They were stolen off me and I was not breaking any law. THey do not have the right to assult a minor just because the minors are breaking the law either way and theft is theft even if a cop does it.

bruachain wrote:

Yes, I've read the thread several times. I still fail to get what you're trying to say!?

Well read it again and maybe you might rememeber what I said. I was innocent of all crimes when I was robbed by Gardai. When I was breaking the law by drinking underage I was assulted and more items were stolen from me. These were not isolated events to me as an individual or an individual cop. Why are you choosing to ignore what I am saying. COps have acted illegally on me and their is evidence they are still doing the same.

bruachain wrote:

Would you disagree with the statement that you have a deep dislike of the Gardai?

I would say it was untrue. I dislike corruption and acceptance off said corruption. Unlike you I don't blindly believe cops in this country are correct but have to prove a case before acting.

To give you an equally stupid statement to agree or disagree with .
Would it be fair to say you believe if cops beat somebody up they deserve it no questions asked?

LegacyUser

MorningStar wrote:

To give you an equally stupid statement to agree or disagree with .
Would it be fair to say you believe if cops beat somebody up they deserve it no questions asked?

:rolleyes: What do you think - no.

Well MorningStar, nice debate, let me summarise by suggesting that if you completely believe that you've been been the victim of

- intimidation
- assault
- theft
- harassment

(all alleged in this thread I believe? )

by the Gardai, that you find yourself a good solicitor, and take the appropriate action.

If I was going about my business and subjected to the sort of treatment that you've received, I certainly would be exploring the legal avenues open to me!

Look forward to seeing you in the paper as the new Frank McBrearty Jr.!

jus·tice ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jsts)
n.
The quality of being just; fairness.

The principle of moral rightness; equity.
Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.

The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
Law. The administration and procedure of law.
Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason

Tomohawk

Morningstar, you didn't resist on any of these occasions did you? Or act the gob****e with the guards? Aren't you the lucky lad Luggs Brannigan wasn't "on the beat" when these alleged abuses of power by Dublin guards happened. BTW we dont have "cops" here, we have guards, "cops" this and "cops" that, ahem, cops live in america...

Dyr

Actually, we have gardai. Another thing we dont have is any independant ombudsman or external control mechanism for the gardai.

John_C

Morningstar,
The only allegation you haven't fully explained is that of assault. Could you elaborate?

MorningStar

Tomohawk wrote:

Morningstar, you didn't resist on any of these occasions did you? Or act the gob****e with the guards? Aren't you the lucky lad Luggs Brannigan wasn't "on the beat" when these alleged abuses of power by Dublin guards happened. BTW we dont have "cops" here, we have guards, "cops" this and "cops" that, ahem, cops live in america...

Doing nothing walking down the street cops didn't like the look of me and stopped and searched me as I went to visit a friend. THey did so the next day and also stopped and searched me as I went home. THe next day the same again. No reason other than they didn't like the look of me, they stole my money and fags called me a hippy and various other names and slapped me in the face a few times (that is assult and theft). THis was a way to intimidate people from coming into the area where they could get drugs (hash, speed, e etc...). Rather than use the law they made up their own method of law enforcement. I know why they did it but it doesn't make it right and the profited out of it.
They are only alleged if somebody else alleges them and we speak about them. They are event that happened to me and if you don't believe them say so instead of suggesting it.
What you fail to see is that just because it didn't happen in your area or to you that other areas don't do this. I was in the Coolock station zone where the cops deal with some of the worst situations as crime stats say. That makes the cops rule by intimidation not community policing and law enforcement. The mistrust of cops is justified as they are seen abusing their power regularly.

I can call the cops as it is slang for all police forces world wide as is pig but that is more derogatory.

vasch_ro

working as a Garda, cannot say i have ever beat up any homeless people or junkies,
its a common enough perception the any beer seized is drunk back at the station, however its a false one , given a choice of drinking a dirty can of Dutch Gold etc thats been god knows where, and a nice chilled bottle of erdinger when i get home , there's no competition !:D
I would take bruachain's advice a see a solicitor and u will be laughing all the way to the bank !:)

Tomohawk

Originally Posted by MorningStar
No reason other than they didn't like the look of me, they stole my money and fags called me a hippy

Ah that explains it, go have a wash ye feckin hippy.:p

Blub2k4

vasch_ro wrote:

working as a Garda, cannot say i have ever beat up any homeless people or junkies,
its a common enough perception the any beer seized is drunk back at the station, however its a false one , given a choice of drinking a dirty can of Dutch Gold etc thats been god knows where, and a nice chilled bottle of erdinger when i get home , there's no competition !:D
I would take bruachain's advice a see a solicitor and u will be laughing all the way to the bank !:)

Well you're obviously not one of the cops that works the beat about Baggot St or the Green.
I did a lot of work with the homeless and there were regular complaints from them about a particular cop on that beat that steals from the homeless peoples cups, big man he is.
Also was told by one of the Joyces (travellers on Baggot St) that he has had a lot of stuff taken on him by cops.
Call it hearsay if you will but I had it from a number of them and at least 2 different cops were involved. I've also seen a copper empty out someones coffee cup (for tapping) outside the central bank.
So they pick on the easiest ones to steal from, homeless travellers and junkies.
I did ask for them to get me a number and I would follow up with a TD friend, but I stopped the street work before anyone was able to get me a badge number.
Another day I was speaking to a copper about Paddy, the old housebreaker junkie that used to tap on Baggot St, near the Tescos ( if yer a cop you should know of him if you do city centre) after he had died of an overdose on that nasty bad smack that was doing the rounds, the copper told me it was no loss he was only an old scumbag and he deserved it.... very nice, good attitude to have.

LegacyUser

Tap?

Blub2k4

bruachain wrote:

Tap?

Sorry tap is street slang for begging, I assumed people would understand it, specifically Vasco_ro, being a cop, as I was addressing him.

I also mentioned to them that if it happened again to ask for the receipt, maybe a copper is allowed to take the money although I dont see how he is without due process, the least one would expect is a receipt, can Vasch_ro or another who knows confirm this?

When I told them to complain they laughed, it was the cops who stole off them at the end of the day and the scumbag bullies know that if they do it on cop shop regulars that any complaints would not be entertained.

vasch_ro

Think its an offence to beg , under the old vagrancy act 1824, and suspect Gardai have powers to seize proceeds of begging under this act , but would have to look it up to be sure to be sure !!!

In regards to hearsay,(its not acceptable as evidence in court !!) its possible we all know about corruption in every walk of life in Ireland, what can I say, I'm not going to defend corruption in any way , I like to pay for my donuts !!:)

Personally speaking I know no one that has ever stolen from any member of the public, but I do know that a guy from pearse street station was in the papers for stealing uniforms, so as I said its possible .

Blub2k4

vasch_ro if you were to take the proceeds of begging what is the situation with logging the proceeds, to make sure they dont end up in the cops pocket? Can you check, I mean they obviously cant just walk off and buy a donut with the money right? Should the person begging not receive a receipt for said moneys?

I'd be pretty sure it is an offence to beg, the question is how does a garda guarantee that he is not pocketing the money with some sort of audit trail to prove where the money is going.
The offences do not just entail proceeds of begging but other items too.

In my mind the law allows the gard to take the money I never disputed that, but what guarantee is there that he is not pocketing it?

jetsonx

MorningStar wrote:

That makes the cops rule by intimidation not community policing and law enforcement. The mistrust of cops is justified as they are seen abusing their power regularly.

Nail on the head Morningstar. I have never heard seen or heard of any community projects carried out by the Gardai. If they do have such projects they keep them very low profile. In places like the UK and Holland they visit schools informing kids of their role, building a relationship of mutual trust...but oh no not our Gardai they would rather use old fashioned intimidation as their main policing weapon. Are all the Criminology textbooks they study in Templemore a wee bit outdated?

Will kids who grow up in high crime areas - co-operate with them when they get older and witness crime first hand ? - NO - because they've seen they've seen their tactics before and will understandably will not cooperate.

When their is a lack of trust and cooperation like that - it makes for very bad policing.

MrJoeSoap

jetsonx wrote:

I have never heard seen or heard of any community projects carried out by the Gardai.

Are you joking?

Thats my dads entire job pretty much, as a juvenile liason officer.

http://www.bmyi.ie/ (local to me) is very much related to Garda work, and my dad (as a Garda) was very involved in its establishment. There are numerous other projects in my area (whose names I cannot recall right now, I'll have a look and post them later if necessary) as well, and for many years my dad has driven minibuses full of teenage kids from under-priveleged backgrounds the length and breadth of this country on trips.

I currently live in any area with various contrasting social backgrounds and a lot of the people of my age (~20) who have been in trouble with the law now know me and have tonnes of respect for the role Juvenile Liason Officers play in the community.

vasch_ro

jetsonx wrote:

Nail on the head Morningstar. I have never heard seen or heard of any community projects carried out by the Gardai. If they do have such projects they keep them very low profile. In places like the UK and Holland they visit schools informing kids of their role, building a relationship of mutual trust...but oh no not our Gardai they would rather use old fashioned intimidation as their main policing weapon. Are all the Criminology textbooks they study in Templemore a wee bit outdated?

.

maybe what they do in the Uk and Holland is like this ...

The Garda Primary Schools Programme, which was first introduced in 1991, is a comprehensive education programme for 5th class pupils in Primary Schools throughout the country.

The programme aims to teach children sensible and responsible patterns of behaviour in order that they may:

* Lessen the risks they may face through crime
* Be safer on the roads and at home
* Positively contribute towards Crime Prevention
* Know what the Role of the Gardaí is
* Develop positive attitudes towards the Gardaí and the work they do.

The programme consists of a series of presentations given to the school children by their local Gardaí.

or this ?

The Garda Secondary Schools Programme has been developed and is at present being introduced to Second Level schools throughout the country.

The programme was designed in conjunction with the Social, Personal & Health Education (SPHE) syllabus of the Department of Education & Science.

Trained Gardaí are available to co facilitate classes as part of the SPHE course at Junior Cycle level in the following two modules -

* Substance Use
* Personal Safety

Social, Personal and Health Education (SPHE), as part of the schools curriculum, supports the personal development, health and well being of young people and helps them create and maintain supportive relationships.


In relation to community projects

Garda Projects

LAB/ SAY Garda Projects
Dun Laoghaire Youth Service supports the Garda Projects in Loughlinstown and Sandyford. The programme was set up to divert young people from getting involved in criminal activity.
http://www.dlys.ie/garda/index.php

further

An Garda Síochána Special Projects
Foróige works closely with An Garda Síochána in community based and supported youth development projects which involve young people in developing themselves and their communities. These are part of a network of Garda special projects which aim to divert young people away from crime through the operation of a combination of intervention and prevention programmes.

These special projects are operated by Foróige, funded by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform through An Garda Síochána and supported by the Probation and Welfare Service and the local community.

List of Garda projects can be found here:
http://www.foroige.ie/services_garda.html

Hope this clears up any misconceptions you may
have had

MorningStar

I got these friendly police lecturers but at the same time the cops were doing as I described. It was lip service and nothing more.
The area I grew up was policed by intimidation and not the law. If your area wasn't you were lucky. There is enough evidence to suggest that it hasn't change.
As far as I am concerned it seemed to be simply that people with no concept of an urban environment were suddenly meant to police it. There is no doubt in my mind that laws are policed differently in the city than the country.