Dublin gardai abusing powers.

Tomohawk

Originally Posted by MorningStar
No reason other than they didn't like the look of me, they stole my money and fags called me a hippy

Ah that explains it, go have a wash ye feckin hippy.:p

Blub2k4

vasch_ro wrote:

working as a Garda, cannot say i have ever beat up any homeless people or junkies,
its a common enough perception the any beer seized is drunk back at the station, however its a false one , given a choice of drinking a dirty can of Dutch Gold etc thats been god knows where, and a nice chilled bottle of erdinger when i get home , there's no competition !:D
I would take bruachain's advice a see a solicitor and u will be laughing all the way to the bank !:)

Well you're obviously not one of the cops that works the beat about Baggot St or the Green.
I did a lot of work with the homeless and there were regular complaints from them about a particular cop on that beat that steals from the homeless peoples cups, big man he is.
Also was told by one of the Joyces (travellers on Baggot St) that he has had a lot of stuff taken on him by cops.
Call it hearsay if you will but I had it from a number of them and at least 2 different cops were involved. I've also seen a copper empty out someones coffee cup (for tapping) outside the central bank.
So they pick on the easiest ones to steal from, homeless travellers and junkies.
I did ask for them to get me a number and I would follow up with a TD friend, but I stopped the street work before anyone was able to get me a badge number.
Another day I was speaking to a copper about Paddy, the old housebreaker junkie that used to tap on Baggot St, near the Tescos ( if yer a cop you should know of him if you do city centre) after he had died of an overdose on that nasty bad smack that was doing the rounds, the copper told me it was no loss he was only an old scumbag and he deserved it.... very nice, good attitude to have.

LegacyUser

Tap?

Blub2k4

bruachain wrote:

Tap?

Sorry tap is street slang for begging, I assumed people would understand it, specifically Vasco_ro, being a cop, as I was addressing him.

I also mentioned to them that if it happened again to ask for the receipt, maybe a copper is allowed to take the money although I dont see how he is without due process, the least one would expect is a receipt, can Vasch_ro or another who knows confirm this?

When I told them to complain they laughed, it was the cops who stole off them at the end of the day and the scumbag bullies know that if they do it on cop shop regulars that any complaints would not be entertained.

vasch_ro

Think its an offence to beg , under the old vagrancy act 1824, and suspect Gardai have powers to seize proceeds of begging under this act , but would have to look it up to be sure to be sure !!!

In regards to hearsay,(its not acceptable as evidence in court !!) its possible we all know about corruption in every walk of life in Ireland, what can I say, I'm not going to defend corruption in any way , I like to pay for my donuts !!:)

Personally speaking I know no one that has ever stolen from any member of the public, but I do know that a guy from pearse street station was in the papers for stealing uniforms, so as I said its possible .

Blub2k4

vasch_ro if you were to take the proceeds of begging what is the situation with logging the proceeds, to make sure they dont end up in the cops pocket? Can you check, I mean they obviously cant just walk off and buy a donut with the money right? Should the person begging not receive a receipt for said moneys?

I'd be pretty sure it is an offence to beg, the question is how does a garda guarantee that he is not pocketing the money with some sort of audit trail to prove where the money is going.
The offences do not just entail proceeds of begging but other items too.

In my mind the law allows the gard to take the money I never disputed that, but what guarantee is there that he is not pocketing it?

jetsonx

MorningStar wrote:

That makes the cops rule by intimidation not community policing and law enforcement. The mistrust of cops is justified as they are seen abusing their power regularly.

Nail on the head Morningstar. I have never heard seen or heard of any community projects carried out by the Gardai. If they do have such projects they keep them very low profile. In places like the UK and Holland they visit schools informing kids of their role, building a relationship of mutual trust...but oh no not our Gardai they would rather use old fashioned intimidation as their main policing weapon. Are all the Criminology textbooks they study in Templemore a wee bit outdated?

Will kids who grow up in high crime areas - co-operate with them when they get older and witness crime first hand ? - NO - because they've seen they've seen their tactics before and will understandably will not cooperate.

When their is a lack of trust and cooperation like that - it makes for very bad policing.

MrJoeSoap

jetsonx wrote:

I have never heard seen or heard of any community projects carried out by the Gardai.

Are you joking?

Thats my dads entire job pretty much, as a juvenile liason officer.

http://www.bmyi.ie/ (local to me) is very much related to Garda work, and my dad (as a Garda) was very involved in its establishment. There are numerous other projects in my area (whose names I cannot recall right now, I'll have a look and post them later if necessary) as well, and for many years my dad has driven minibuses full of teenage kids from under-priveleged backgrounds the length and breadth of this country on trips.

I currently live in any area with various contrasting social backgrounds and a lot of the people of my age (~20) who have been in trouble with the law now know me and have tonnes of respect for the role Juvenile Liason Officers play in the community.

vasch_ro

jetsonx wrote:

Nail on the head Morningstar. I have never heard seen or heard of any community projects carried out by the Gardai. If they do have such projects they keep them very low profile. In places like the UK and Holland they visit schools informing kids of their role, building a relationship of mutual trust...but oh no not our Gardai they would rather use old fashioned intimidation as their main policing weapon. Are all the Criminology textbooks they study in Templemore a wee bit outdated?

.

maybe what they do in the Uk and Holland is like this ...

The Garda Primary Schools Programme, which was first introduced in 1991, is a comprehensive education programme for 5th class pupils in Primary Schools throughout the country.

The programme aims to teach children sensible and responsible patterns of behaviour in order that they may:

* Lessen the risks they may face through crime
* Be safer on the roads and at home
* Positively contribute towards Crime Prevention
* Know what the Role of the Gardaí is
* Develop positive attitudes towards the Gardaí and the work they do.

The programme consists of a series of presentations given to the school children by their local Gardaí.

or this ?

The Garda Secondary Schools Programme has been developed and is at present being introduced to Second Level schools throughout the country.

The programme was designed in conjunction with the Social, Personal & Health Education (SPHE) syllabus of the Department of Education & Science.

Trained Gardaí are available to co facilitate classes as part of the SPHE course at Junior Cycle level in the following two modules -

* Substance Use
* Personal Safety

Social, Personal and Health Education (SPHE), as part of the schools curriculum, supports the personal development, health and well being of young people and helps them create and maintain supportive relationships.


In relation to community projects

Garda Projects

LAB/ SAY Garda Projects
Dun Laoghaire Youth Service supports the Garda Projects in Loughlinstown and Sandyford. The programme was set up to divert young people from getting involved in criminal activity.
http://www.dlys.ie/garda/index.php

further

An Garda Síochána Special Projects
Foróige works closely with An Garda Síochána in community based and supported youth development projects which involve young people in developing themselves and their communities. These are part of a network of Garda special projects which aim to divert young people away from crime through the operation of a combination of intervention and prevention programmes.

These special projects are operated by Foróige, funded by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform through An Garda Síochána and supported by the Probation and Welfare Service and the local community.

List of Garda projects can be found here:
http://www.foroige.ie/services_garda.html

Hope this clears up any misconceptions you may
have had

MorningStar

I got these friendly police lecturers but at the same time the cops were doing as I described. It was lip service and nothing more.
The area I grew up was policed by intimidation and not the law. If your area wasn't you were lucky. There is enough evidence to suggest that it hasn't change.
As far as I am concerned it seemed to be simply that people with no concept of an urban environment were suddenly meant to police it. There is no doubt in my mind that laws are policed differently in the city than the country.

Ronin00074

I got these friendly police lecturers but at the same time the cops were doing as I described. It was lip service and nothing more.

Do you have experience of what they do in the UK in schools, considering that you are comparing it to how the Gardai operate here?

I also assume you have reported some of the abuses you are alleging so you have a record that can back up your claims...??

MorningStar

Ronin00074 wrote:

I got these friendly police lecturers but at the same time the cops were doing as I described. It was lip service and nothing more.

Do you have experience of what they do in the UK in schools, considering that you are comparing it to how the Gardai operate here?

I also assume you have reported some of the abuses you are alleging so you have a record that can back up your claims...??

I didn't compare it to the british system!

No I didn't report them because I knew of people who did and what came of it. There was no point. We are also talking about 18 years ago. They did it there are enough reports to know it still goes on. Don't believe it happens if you don't but to deny you are aware of at least some corruption of duties you would be very odd.

Ronin00074

Morningstar,

Sorry, I thought you were making comparisons when you said "In places like the UK and Holland they visit schools informing kids of their role, building a relationship of mutual trust...but oh no not our Gardai they would rather use old fashioned intimidation as their main policing weapon. "

As for corruption, any organisation of 12,000 persons anywhere, whether it be in the public or private sector, will have an element that that are disreputable. That's undeniable, but the widespread abuse of power that yourself and Lauragoesmad are implying? I can't believe that.

parsi

MorningStar wrote:

I grew up in Dublin and saw cops beat teenagers up and steal their drink practially weekly. It is part of what Dublin cops do and when I say Dublin I men the ones working here who are very rarely used to urban environments.

They certainly abuse their power in this city but if you aren't in their scope of bad people or easy targets you probably never notice.

rarely used to urban environments - what a load of tosh. Where do you think they come from ? Some valley 4000km from the nearest village ?

Guards dont go looking for trouble from folk. They stand and listen patiently whilst some drunk gives out to them because they couldn't get into a disco. They deal with the same langers fighting night after night. They hear the same old excuses day-in day-out. If you're snotty, confrontational and arrogant with them they'll be the same right back at ya; if you accept that you've done wrong they'll be tolerant.

Meanwhile go across to the continent and see who strikes more fear into you - a typical Irish Guard or some big bruiser of the French CRS armed and spoiling for a fight.

I could never be a Guard - dealing with scumbags, dealing with bleeding hearts , dealing with doddery old dears, dealing with arrogant and annoying first year law students who know all about habeous corpus but sweet all about common sense...

Lauragoesmad

Look i never said that all gardai in dublin were abusing theyre powers, i said some were and some needed to go on communications courses and i think i'm right. I have with my own eyes seen 3 gardai drag a guy into the back of a garda jeep for absolutley nothing. two of the gardai that were involved in that whole thing in Donegal are working in dublin garda stations. cabra and i think the other is mount joy or store st. I know a 4 gardai and i can only say that i would think that one of them would do a good job. The other 3 dont even take it seriously . A mate of mines little brother was given a good hidin when he was only 15 and they left him on dollymount beach to make his own way home.I just think that the gardai need better training and more community relations. So these are some of the reasons i have a problem with some gardai.

Dyr

lol at people giving chapter and verse on how the gardai behave but dont know what tapping means. Says it all tbh

Like in most walks of life, many gardai are the soundest people you can meet (hi vasch ), many are'nt suited for the job and many are utter tossers. Problem is the tossers make other peoples life a misery and give the gardai the poxy reputation that they have in a lot of areas. I've always avoided getting gardai involved in any problem if i can help it, even when i have good reason to.

vasch_ro

tapping , isn't that what do in the UFC when they want to give up ??:D

Blub2k4

vasch_ro wrote:

tapping , isn't that what do in the UFC when they want to give up ??:D

So vasch_ro, you've gone very quiet on whether or not a receipt should be given to someone who has had money taken off them by a garda.
Any answer on that or have you gone silent due to indefensible behaviour by colleagues?
I'd still be interested in an answer if you have time, thanks.

vasch_ro

Blub2k4 wrote:

So vasch_ro, you've gone very quiet on whether or not a receipt should be given to someone who has had money taken off them by a garda.
Any answer on that or have you gone silent due to indefensible behaviour by colleagues?
I'd still be interested in an answer if you have time, thanks.

the Dublin forum is not a forum i regularly look at , though I have been making a point of checking in on this thread, in regards to colleagues, obviously I cannot defend "indefensible" behaviour nor would I try, i did find a copy of the act in the station but did not have much time to look through it( i will have a good look thru tomorrow though a get a definitive ans, I would imagine that it would be incumbent on the Garda to count the amount of cash seized , note it in his official notebook and get the person to sign it , (if they were willing ), as an aside I arrested a fella last week who came into the station with a fiver on him, when he left a few hours later he came back to the office and demanded we return his 100 euro note that I had supposedly taken of him , despite all reasoning with him and an explanation of the circumstances in which he was found before his arrest (which could account for the loss ), the individual went home convinced I had stroked a 100 euro note of him.

in realtion to the Garda pocketing the money, I guess there is no gurantee for not pocketing it, the sensible thing to do would as I outlined for the Garda,
the person who had the money taken would be advised to go to the local station concerned and ask for the Sgt and explain the situation and get a receipt of him/her, in Ireland you are innocent until proven guilty and I guess its possible that a court would direct the cash to be returned.

I can't help but feel that there is an almost accusatory tone to your post ?
There could be a billion and 1 reasons why I had not posted ................

Kappar

I haven't had time to read all his thread before posting so forgive me if some of this has been covered. I will try to read it later and post another response.

My perception and experience of An Garda generally is a force that has chronic and ingrained abuse of power issues. I would like to refer people to the reports of the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment-

2002 - http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/irl/2003-36-inf-eng.htm#_Toc29353529
1998 - http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/irl/1999-15-inf-eng.htm#II.A.2.
1993 - http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/irl/1995-14-inf-eng.htm#II.A.2

All of these report findings of systematic physical ill treatment.

Also the Prime Time Investigates exposé in Jan 2004 highlighted the spectre of our police force’s abuse of power. I have heard loads of anecdotal evidence of which I am fully convinced of its accuracy however; I accept that none of you should necessarily take as true not knowing me or the people that told me.

I think a main contributing factor to this is the failure to have an Ombudsman with any real teeth. The current legislation, the Garda Síochána (Complaints) Act, 1986 established the current Complaints board. The board has very limited power and investigative ability for example most complaints investigated are done by Garda of inspector rank this runs contrary to the principles of justice and the maxim of "Let no man is to be judge in his own cause"

Also there might be some evidence to suggest that complaints are being withdrawn from the board because of intimidation by the Garda towards the complainant for instance in 2003 there were 265 complaints withdrawn or not proceeded with after being deemed admissible (Garda Síochána Complaints Board, Garda Síochána Complaints Board Annual Report 2003 (Stationary Office, 2003) at 36) to buttress that there is evidence of intimidation one such example arises in the case of Flood v. Garda Complaints Board in which a complaint was made against a Garda and then the Board passed this on to a investigating Garda to investigate- this Garda then called to the complainant’s home late at night unannounced and took other steps seemingly to intimidate. I have also heard anecdotal evidence of similar such cases and where Garda would refuse to take a complaint which the are required to do under the Act or the complaint would be ‘lost’ and the complainant would not have been receipt which they have to get under the Act therefore have no means to prove the complaint was made and would be outside the limitation period for making a complaint.

I seemed to have focused a lot on the complaints procedure but I do think that is core to addressing the problem.

dSTAR

Kappar wrote:

My perception and experience of An Garda generally is a force that has chronic and ingrained abuse of power issues...

and

Kappar wrote:

I have heard loads of anecdotal evidence of which I am fully convinced of its accuracy however...

and

Kappar wrote:

I have also heard anecdotal evidence of similar such cases...

and

Kappar wrote:

I seemed to have focused a lot on the complaints procedure but I do think that is core to addressing the problem.

The phrase 'not standing up in court' springs to mind.

The only apprehension I have from reading this is that the Gardai do not have ENOUGH powers and don't get paid enough for the job they do. I mean what other country (I've been to a few!) would allow the worst kinds of scumbags to roam the streets robbing and attacking people or where else would you witness the level of public drunkeness that you see in Ireland?

Consider the fact that the Gardai have to deal with some of the worst offenders, drunken morons, mangled bodies in RTA's and HIV infected junkies on any given day or night and the accusation that the odd officer here and there beats up a homeless person to relieve them of their money is a bit namby pamby!

Kappar

The phrase 'not standing up in court' springs to mind.

That's a moot point really there dStar. I don't think I suggested that this was evidence that could be adduced before a Court. In fact I more or less said believe it or not. I have no reason to lie to you all I wanted to do was but forward a SUBJECTIVE point of view which you seemed to have latched on to as somehow supporting your argument.

I also linked to some reports made by the CPT on behalf of the Council of Europe which provide some objective element that has contributed to my subjective position. In all of these reports the CPT found evidence and concluded physical ill treatment by the Garda. To quote one of the CPT reports "CPT was led to conclude, in the light of all the information at its disposal, that persons held in certain police establishments in Ireland - and more particularly in Dublin - ran a not inconsiderable risk of being physically ill-treated."

The only apprehension I have from reading this is that the Gardai do not have ENOUGH powers and don't get paid enough for the job they do. I mean what other country (I've been to a few!) would allow the worst kinds of scumbags to roam the streets robbing and attacking people or where else would you witness the level of public drunkeness that you see in Ireland?

In some cases I would like to see the police have more powers in some cases less however could you explain how this relates to the topic we are discussing? Are you suggesting that the police should have the power to physically illtreat people? As much as it pains me to see some so called scumbags out on the streets we live, thanks god, in a constitutional democracy and as you so rightly said the phrase "won't stand up in court" is fundamental and is one reason why some of these 'scumbags' are on the streets and I am sure you agree it is vital that we have it.

Consider the fact that the Gardai have to deal with some of the worst offenders, drunken morons, mangled bodies in RTA's and HIV infected junkies on any given day or night and the accusation that the odd officer here and there beats up a homeless person to relieve them of their money is a bit namby pamby!

Preaching to the choir. I fully accept that the Gardaí have a hard job but does that give them the right to break the law? Does that remove our right to debate the fact that we don’t want the Gardaí to break the law? Are you trying to say that in terms of the overall work of the Gardaí that the law breaking is minimal? Or we are making it more difficult for them to do there job by complaining? I really don’t understand what you want to say in the paragraph.

oceallachain

if you're not happy about your police service then by all means complain about it. we are supposed to be servants of the public.

however, one guy on hear said that if you hit (assault) a female garda then youre putting your life on the line. first off, no lady should ever be struck at work just because of her occupation. and secondly ive seen female colleagues being struck and they lived to laugh at the tale

Blub2k4

vasch_ro wrote:

the Dublin forum is not a forum i regularly look at , though I have been making a point of checking in on this thread, in regards to colleagues, obviously I cannot defend "indefensible" behaviour nor would I try, i did find a copy of the act in the station but did not have much time to look through it( i will have a good look thru tomorrow though a get a definitive ans, I would imagine that it would be incumbent on the Garda to count the amount of cash seized , note it in his official notebook and get the person to sign it , (if they were willing ), as an aside I arrested a fella last week who came into the station with a fiver on him, when he left a few hours later he came back to the office and demanded we return his 100 euro note that I had supposedly taken of him , despite all reasoning with him and an explanation of the circumstances in which he was found before his arrest (which could account for the loss ), the individual went home convinced I had stroked a 100 euro note of him.

in realtion to the Garda pocketing the money, I guess there is no gurantee for not pocketing it, the sensible thing to do would as I outlined for the Garda,
the person who had the money taken would be advised to go to the local station concerned and ask for the Sgt and explain the situation and get a receipt of him/her, in Ireland you are innocent until proven guilty and I guess its possible that a court would direct the cash to be returned.

I can't help but feel that there is an almost accusatory tone to your post ?
There could be a billion and 1 reasons why I had not posted ................

Well the thing is that you were active on the forum at the time and it looked like you had avoided a question that was uncomfortable.
I believe that there is a problem in this country with the police, the fact that they act above the law in a lot of cases, one example being the sale of taxi licenses of dead taxi drivers at exorbitant prices, and when it is discovered the cops are shuffled about not prosecuted, for one.
A mate was told once that his car had been stolen by the cops and it was down Sherriff street being pelted with stones and the cops could not recover it, he got a call a few weeks later from Store St. telling him that he could pick up his car, when he asked how it had gone from a burned out husk to a car ready to pick up he was mumbled at. It seems someone who was not in on the deal spotted and recognised his car, is it possible that cops are buying cars from the police auctions? Are they allowed to buy from the auction?
Lots of questions and scumbags who think they are above the law while supposedly upholding it....is a real sickener. I've meet some nice enough country cops but mostly they are thick ignorant pigs who think that they can do what they want.

Let's have an ombudsman and see the reality of the corruption in the force, until they are accountable I wont ever have respect for them.

Turner

Blub2k4 wrote:

one example being the sale of taxi licenses of dead taxi drivers at exorbitant prices, and when it is discovered the cops are shuffled about not prosecuted, for one.A mate was told once that his car had been stolen by the cops and it was down Sherriff street being pelted with stones and the cops could not recover it, he got a call a few weeks later from Store St. telling him that he could pick up his car, when he asked how it had gone from a burned out husk to a car ready to pick up he was mumbled at. It seems someone who was not in on the deal spotted and recognised his car, is it possible that cops are buying cars from the police auctions? Are they allowed to buy from the auction?
Lots of questions and scumbags who think they are above the law while supposedly upholding it....is a real sickener. I've meet some nice enough country cops but mostly they are thick ignorant pigs who think that they can do what they want.

Let's have an ombudsman and see the reality of the corruption in the force, until they are accountable I wont ever have respect for them.

I have never heard such rubbish. Totally useless post.

Selling taxi licenses, leaving stolen cars untouched haha

Oh and cars are not sold in police autions. Id say you get all your facts from "your mate" and believe everything you hear.

Grow up.