20 Years of The PDs

Elmo

So Micheal McDowell annouanced at the 20 years celebration that Sinn Fein were looking to hold the balance of power after the next election. Gasp.

So Micheal is Sinn Fein all you talk about? What about your own party holding the balance of power. I didn't realise that you were the offical Sinn Fein Spokeman.

Then he when on to say what a wonderful job the PDs have done

Yes the PD's brought about the Cletic Tiger.

But don't mention the huge increase in Crime since Micheal has been Minister for Justice or that Poor Boy that die in Garda custody.

Or the Health Service Pay System.

Yes long live the pd

maccor

yes, long live the PDS and michael Mc D. I just hope SF lasts long enough otherwise Michael will run out of topics of discussion.

Hear him on the radio on Sun morning? Boy but he was off on a rant. Shinners are all marxists apparently, hiding their true ideologies behind a facade of some kind. God but the man is terribly paranoid.

Time Magazine

maccor wrote:

Hear him on the radio on Sun morning? Boy but he was off on a rant. Shinners are all marxists apparently, hiding their true ideologies behind a facade of some kind.

Well they do declare themselves Marxists even though their main aim is unification of a single country, so
I'd sort of agree with Micky D's comment.

mike65

As a grown up and someone well long enugh in the tooth to remember life in Ireland before the PDs I suggest all you nay-sayers should be on your knees thanking God they came into existance, both for the policies they espouced but also cos it proved that its possible to reform Fianna Fail - from the outside! The FFers were a bunch of gangsters by the mid 80s (far worse than anything now) and it took the bottle of O Malley, Harney etc to bring them down a peg or two simply by leaving and forming a party, its a pity McCrevey
did'nt join them as he was planning to do.

I guess its ironic they then spend much of the next twenty years in coalition with FF but trust me if they were'nt there we'd all be much worse off.

Mike.

jank

Its all politics from the PD's

They are all afraid that Sinn Fein will become that party that FF will find it easier to cossy up to in the future, leaving them with nothing but memories of a happy past and an extinct future. It wont happen in the next election but the election in 2010/2011 is the one they fear.

Supposeably Dell, Intel and all the multinationals will all leave Ireland if they come to power. Sinn Fein may have a more Socialist outlook than most but is it that more Socialist then Labour? Have those mulitnationals come out and said this?

PD scaremongering at its best. If they ignore Sinn Fein and concentrate on their own government we would be much better off....(Cue remarks about sinn fein in power = dictatorship:rolleyes: )

Thing is I have never voted Sinn Fein but not saying i never will I just hate cheap politics of this kind that the PD's seem so good at.

Cork

jank wrote:

Supposeably Dell, Intel and all the multinationals will all leave Ireland if they come to power.

Adams lacked any understanding of basic economics on Prime Time. The PDs delivered on lower personal taxes.

Michael McDowell was not afraid to make a stand aganist SF/IRA.

Their contribution has been pretty positive.

Diorraing

20 years too much. What was it McDowell said about inequality being a good thing? The fact that the PDs wield so much power highlights a major flaw in our democratic system. I bet the majority of FF voters didn't want their vote to be a vote that would also put the PDs in power (its the same with most parties). They should at least pay heed to where most FF transfers went (presumably Labour/SF/Green)

ratboy

Sinn Fein are looking to hold the balnce of power. It's a fact, why wouldn't they be? Micheal MacDowell is just stating the blaringly obvious, i don't know why you criticise him for that. The PDs have partially nuliified the complete incompetence of Fianna Fail and though i am a gainst most of their righter than right ideaologies, we should be thankful for that at least.

AngelofFire

Shinners are all marxists apparently, hiding their true ideologies behind a facade of some kind.

As a Marxist, i find the claim that all Sinn Fein people are somehow marxist insulting, Look at their record up north in intorducing PPPs in the health and education system.

maccor

Cork wrote:

Adams lacked any understanding of basic economics on Prime Time. The PDs delivered on lower personal taxes.

Michael McDowell was not afraid to make a stand aganist SF/IRA.

Their contribution has been pretty positive.

Michael McDowell has not been making any kind of stand. He has been giving the press false impressions of SF, making up things willy nilly. the PDs have a very very small percentage of the vote, yet they weild so much power - i dont find their contribution as being pretty positive at all. positive for the wealthier of the country maybe, not the recently reported 25% of the population who fall below the poverty line.

Im sure Adams is well tuned to the basic economics of Ireland. I htink its a bandwagon many people get on, this idea that SF have no grasp of economics. Many people say SF have no economic policies, but thats usually down to lack of research on SF policies inthe first place. I think its ingenius to insist he ' lacked any understanding '. In your opinion maybe, but you should state that.

It doesnt get away from the fact that McDowell has a SF fixation and it seems to be the mainstay of his political utterings in the past year or two.

ionapaul

Carthago delenda est!

I don't mind McDowell continually warning the public about SF, the public need to be warned / informed.

The history of the PDs and their formation is very interesting, the gangsterism of the FF party in the early '80s was astounding, I wouldn't be surprised if in 40 years Haughty is reviled in the history books as the most corrupt and immoral Irish leader ever. I equally wouldn't be surprised if he was held up as the greatest Irish leader ever!

maccor

ionapaul wrote:

C

I don't mind McDowell continually warning the public about SF, the public need to be warned / informed.

Theres a difference between informing the public of genuine concerns and bad mouthing the opposition with unsupported half truths. McDowell basically lies alot when he starts his anti SF rethoric. Politicians lie enough as it is, we dont need more of it.

Elmo

I basically just hate the way Michael McDowell has fooled everyone in this country into believing he has done sooooo much for this country.

1. A 14 year old boy dies in Garda Custody, and he or his friends in FF don't dissolve government because of his bad handling of the situation.
2. Crime has increased in the past 4 years of his reign as Justice Minster and 8 years of FF/PD power. He doesn't mention this. Oh we wait in hope of ASBOs
3. He Divides and Conquers. The Referendum of Citizenship was just a waste of money as a Supreme court Judge had already ruled that Children born in Ireland could be deported with their Parents. It was just another case of how no real system has been put in place for immigrates.
4. How many articles has he write for the Times and Indo and how many times his he on the TV and Radio more then any other Minister and all he does is to warn us of Sinn Fein and the IRA. It is pathetic that he never talks about Garda corruption in Donegal and other issue which effect his Department.
5. The PD/FF Government of 1989 -1992, where Ireland was in the worst possible situation in relation to Immigrate out of Ireland and Dole Queues.

He is a waste of Space. Don't waste your time on his Propaganda, Anti-Liberal, Conservative, Nazis views.

Also Mike65

The FFers were a bunch of gangsters by the mid 80s (far worse than anything now)

1. The PD's went into Government with Charlie Haughey
2. The PD's went into Government with Charlie's Lap Dog Bertie.

Yeah the PD's cared about about corruption, no they care about Money and Power.

mike65

Elmo wrote:

Also Mike65


1. The PD's went into Government with Charlie Haughey
2. The PD's went into Government with Charlie's Lap Dog Bertie.

Yeah the PD's cared about about corruption, no they care about Money and Power.

and I said

I guess its ironic they then spend much of the next twenty years in coalition with FF but trust me if they were'nt there we'd all be much worse off.

Once FF had been eyeballed by some of thier own and had blinked first Haugheys' days were numbered.

Mike.

Elmo

Once FF had been eyeballed by some of thier own and had blinked first Haugheys' days were numbered.

Huge problem I have with Labour/FF government. Dick Spring should have stayed in Government, regardless rather then letting go of a good government and good people in the FF party.

But then the huge problem I have with FF/PD government was that Mr. Burke became a Minister.

There are many good things we can say about the FF governments of the '80's, like their are many bad things about the PDs.

The PD's shouldn't be so smug. They weren't the only people in the FF party that didn't want Charlie. I think Albert Renolds and Dick Spring did more for Ireland then any of the successive governments.

mike65

Elmo wrote:

Huge problem I have with Labour/FF government. Dick Spring should have stayed in Government, regardless rather then letting go of a good government and good people in the FF party.

Drifting OT but do you remember the reaction of many who voted in the Spring Tide once Dick fell for the promise of 9 billion pounds to play with?
They were shocked and appalled (including my mother!). People thought they had voted out FF, its not a surprise they lost half thier seats at the next selection.

Mike.

Sand

He is a waste of Space. Don't waste your time on his Propaganda, Anti-Liberal, Conservative, Nazis views.

Hes actually the only decent politician in Ireland tbh. Hes (rightly) criticised SFIRA for their criminality and disregard for our democratic principles long before it became fashionable, and the likes of the McCartney murder where a bar full of SFIRA politicians didnt see anything has completely vindicated him.

The PDs have also been completely vindicated in their philosophy in that , despite bitter and myopic attacks by supposed intellectuals/commentators, it is now seen as the "common sense" approach to the economy. So much so that Bertie felt it necessary to say that he wouldnt go with SFIRA after the election because he knows any attempt to rock the boat economy wise scares the voters. Hes lying of course, Bertie would happily reach a deal with SFIRA over the PDs - remember him furiously denying he has secretly agreed with SFIRA that they would have speaking rights in the Dail in exchange for their August declaration? Never he said. No, what he meant was to give SFIRA speaking rights to a Dail comittee comprised of all the TDs, which would be held in the Dail chamber. Totally different.

jank

jank wrote:

Sinn Fein may have a more Socialist outlook than most but is it that more Socialist then Labour? Have those mulitnationals come out and said this?

Ah they'll dump most of that if they go into coalition.As regards the multi nationals, they will do whatever suits the bottom line.
SF are no threat to them as any government it forms part of wouldnt do most of whats in the SF manifesto.

PD scaremongering at its best. If they ignore Sinn Fein and concentrate on their own government we would be much better off....

But shur what has any party got to do , only give out about its ideological rival.Thats par for the course.

(Cue remarks about sinn fein in power = dictatorship:rolleyes: )

Doubt it as at best they could only enter a coalition with an agreed programme and I doubt any of the available suiters would agree to Economically damaging policies.

Thing is I have never voted Sinn Fein but not saying i never will I just hate cheap politics of this kind that the PD's seem so good at.

They are just espousing their values whether one agrees with them or not is up to the voter.

maccor wrote:

Theres a difference between informing the public of genuine concerns and bad mouthing the opposition with unsupported half truths. McDowell basically lies alot when he starts his anti SF rethoric. Politicians lie enough as it is, we dont need more of it.

My basic difficulty with that is the lack of a law suit-ever, not one nada nothing.
If he is lying then he should be shown to be lying -otherwise he is legitimately entitled to continue giving his views without them being described as lies.

KieranusTyranus

Mcdowell does absolutely nothing but complain about Sinn Fein. It might be a contreversial view but I support Sinn Fein. Also that Cafe Bar idea was the most ridiculous thing I ever. The PDs have no support outside of Dublin.

PS. Did you ever notice that anything bad that happens seems to be the IRAs fault according to McD? When his holiday home had one shotgun blast fired at it he blamed the IRA. Im sure the IRA can figure out better assasinations than firing a shotgun from a distance at an empty house.

Elmo

Hes actually the only decent politician in Ireland tbh. Hes (rightly) criticised SFIRA for their criminality and disregard for our democratic principles long before it became fashionable, and the likes of the McCartney murder where a bar full of SFIRA politicians didnt see anything has completely vindicated him.

This is my problem that's all he does give out about SF or the IRA. He doesn't do what he is supposed to do and that is to run the Justice system rather he talks about SF/IRA.

ratboy

KieranusTyranus wrote:

Mcdowell does absolutely nothing but complain about Sinn Fein. It might be a contreversial view but I support Sinn Fein. Also that Cafe Bar idea was the most ridiculous thing I ever. The PDs have no support outside of Dublin.

PS. Did you ever notice that anything bad that happens seems to be the IRAs fault according to McD? When his holiday home had one shotgun blast fired at it he blamed the IRA. Im sure the IRA can figure out better assasinations than firing a shotgun from a distance at an empty house.

Why was the cafe bar idea the most ridiculous idea ever? In many european countries they have opened up their licences for these cafe bars and it has stopped the massive influx of people spilling onto the street at closing time. The only reason why it was defeated was the states corrupt relationship with the pub industry. Alos explain your reasons for supporting those murdering scumbags Sinn Fein.

Elmo

Name something good the Minister has done don't just throw out cheep retroical questions.

Alos explain your reasons for supporting those murdering scumbags Sinn Fein.

Do you really want me to go through what happened in the north and the other murdering scumbags in that part of the country? Helped by a government.

No McDowell forgets about them.

Name something that McDowell has doen as Minister for Justice that has been good for this country?

Don't just go for the classic option of when all else fails bring up Sinn Fein. You would think that people don't vote for other parties.

fly_agaric

ratboy wrote:

Why was the cafe bar idea the most ridiculous idea ever? In many european countries they have opened up their licences for these cafe bars and it has stopped the massive influx of people spilling onto the street at closing time. The only reason why it was defeated was the states corrupt relationship with the pub industry. Alos explain your reasons for supporting those murdering scumbags Sinn Fein.

Has it really. I'd like to read about that if you have any links. I'm too lazy to look.:D
Anyway in my opinion:
Ireland is a northern European country where alot of people do most of their drinking to get drunk - not because it goes down well with a bit of food (although we're starting to do that too while still keeping the drink to get drunk ethos for nights out). Alot of people will just use these café bars as yet another place you can get some poison before you hit your main course of alcoholic sustenance in a pub or club later on - or to drink themselves under the table after the pubs close. Maybe it will cut down on aggro on the streets at closing time but it will mean people will drink even more than they do now. Not good really, but nice ka-ching for the PeeDee's friends and to hell with the consequences.

ratboy wrote:

The fact that the PDs wield so much power highlights a major flaw in our democratic system.

So true. Doesn't the PeeDee's level of support fluctuate close to the margin of error in polls and yet they have been almost running the fécking country for the last 2 governments. What's up with that?:rolleyes:

mike65

ratboy wrote:

The only reason why it was defeated was the states corrupt relationship with the pub industry.

Actually its Fianna Fails relationship to the vitners thats the problem, the back benchers either are pub owners or have someone in thier immediate family who is. The cafe idea was an exellent one.

Originally Posted by fly_agaric
Has it really. I'd like to read about that if you have any links. I'm too lazy to look

:rolleyes:

Mike.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

fly_agaric

mike65 wrote:

:rolleyes:

Oh no... I've been rolleyed for being lazy. I guess you won't be providing me with evidence that the café bar idea will help with rather than make worse the problem of alcohol in Irish society then? Or did you just like the idea of sitting outside a café bar in D4 with an expensive micro-brew late on a sunny Friday evening, watching the world go by and pretending you are in Italy or Spain?

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Don't ask me. I've spoilt my vote for the last 2 general elections! I feel another rolleyes coming on. I may vote for Labour in the next one. You've depressed me even more saying that the PeeDee's and their greed-is-good Ayn Rynd bullcrap is the pivot of the Irish political system.

That said, I liked McDowell's idea about active promotion of ethnic diversity in the guards. Very clever and far-sighted. I was also impressed with him having the bálls to actually try and control immigation.

PhoenixRising

The PD's deserve a lot of credit for hauling Irish politics back from the brink in the 80's. They were they only politicians with backbone who were willing to stand up and not take any more of the crap that was going on in Irish politics.

About the only politician I can say I have respect for these days is Michael McDowell. He's an intelligent, articulate and resolute politician who takes crap off nobody, especially the Sinn Fein terrorists/knackers (delete as appropriate).

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Yeah I'd like to see him as Tanaiste also - about the only decent politician we have in Ireland at the moment.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

He doesn't... run the Justice system...

That's a pretty serious allegation. Presumably you have lots of supporting evidence.

And no, the fact that the number of extra guards promised in the program for government haven't been recruited yet doesn't mean he's not doing his job.

oscarBravo

fly_agaric wrote:

You've depressed me even more saying that the PeeDee's and their greed-is-good Ayn Rynd bullcrap is the pivot of the Irish political system.

I've read Atlas Shrugged at least twice. I honestly can't see any real comparison between the philosophy it espouses and the PDs' policies. I also don't recall any PD member saying "greed is good".

mike65

fly_agaric, Daveirl should be credited for the following

So out of interest who would you like to run the country because without PR we'd probably only have a choice of an FF government or an FG one. Possibly an FG/Lab government but it's be like the UK. The whole point of our system is that the PDs hold the balance of power, just as Sinn Fein are trying to do.

Mike.

Elmo

And no, the fact that the number of extra guards promised in the program for government haven't been recruited yet doesn't mean he's not doing his job.

Oh another thing he hasn't done. I had forgotten, thanks for reminding me.

So what has he done. Exactly as Minister for Justice? MMMMMMM

Haven't seen anything, have see what he hasn't done.

Oh the DNA DB, well thats about 10 years too late.

The PD have deleivered on advancements in Technology like Broadband, Digital TV and all the other things we don't have that we should of had 10 years ago.

I just love the way the PDs have absolutely made sure that they make it look as though they have done something when really they have yet to do anything.

And when I asked what did Micheal McDowell do as Minister for Justice I have yet to get a Concrete Answer.

Here come the rolling eyes. :rolleyes:

Do the PD's hold the Balance of power as far as I know FF didn't need them to get back and even if they did they could have gone with the Greens or Dare I say it Sinn Fein. FF held the balance of which small party got to have a big job in the Government.