20 Years of The PDs

maccor

Earthman wrote:

.My basic difficulty with that is the lack of a law suit-ever, not one nada nothing.
If he is lying then he should be shown to be lying -otherwise he is legitimately entitled to continue giving his views without them being described as lies.

yes, but who is going to prove him wrong? Sinn Fein? they wouldnt get into a dirty debate at this stage, in fact theyve a history of letting things lie when it comes to attacks on their credibility. Its a standard to slag off SF as they are a political partys worst nightmare so no-one is going to stand in mcdowells way.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

Oh another thing he hasn't done. I had forgotten, thanks for reminding me.

I'm helpful like that.

Elmo wrote:

So what has he done. Exactly as Minister for Justice? MMMMMMM

Haven't seen anything, have see what he hasn't done.

Oh the DNA DB, well thats about 10 years too late.

The PD have deleivered on advancements in Technology like Broadband, Digital TV and all the other things we don't have that we should of had 10 years ago.

I just love the way the PDs have absolutely made sure that they make it look as though they have done something when really they have yet to do anything.

And when I asked what did Micheal McDowell do as Minister for Justice I have yet to get a Concrete Answer.

Just a stab in the dark here, but I'm guessing that he did his job and ran the Department of Justice.

Of course, you've claimed that he hasn't done that, so obviously you know more about it than me. You've yet to substantiate that allegation, though. Unless you believe the job of the Minister for Justice consists solely of delivering DNA databases, digital TV and broadband, I don't see that you've made that case at all.

Elmo

digital TV and broadband

They where generalisms about the PD/FF government.

Again I will repeat what he hasn't done in case you didn't read them

1. A 14 year old boy dies in Garda Custody, and he or his friends in FF don't dissolve government because of his bad handling of the situation.
2. Crime has increased in the past 4 years of his reign as Justice Minster and 8 years of FF/PD power. He doesn't mention this. Oh we wait in hope of ASBOs
3. He Divides and Conquers. The Referendum of Citizenship was just a waste of money as a Supreme court Judge had already ruled that Children born in Ireland could be deported with their Parents. It was just another case of how no real system has been put in place for immigrates.
4. How many articles has he write for the Times and Indo and how many times his he on the TV and Radio more then any other Minister and all he does is to warn us of Sinn Fein and the IRA. It is pathetic that he never talks about Garda corruption in Donegal and other issue which effect his Department.

Now if you call that good Justice then good for you but I won't consider that good justice.


The PD's have resided over a government which has a department called

Communications, Marine and Natural Resourse

Perhaps 3 of the most important Departments are in the one Department and the have nothing to do with each other.

What sh1t.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

They where generalisms about the PD/FF government.

Right. So, nothing to do with McDowell not doing his job. Gotcha.

Elmo wrote:

Again I will repeat what he hasn't done in case you didn't read them

I read them. If you operate on the assumption that the only responsibilities of the Minister for Justice are to personally guarantee the safe custody of minors in Garda stations, to single-handedly lower crime rates, to fail to introduce referenda and to avoid mentioning Sinn Féin in radio and newspaper articles, then I guess you could argue that he hasn't done his job.

Forgive me while I work on the assumption that there's a little more to the job than that.

Elmo wrote:

Now if you call that good Justice then good for you but I won't consider that good justice.

We're not talking about good or bad justice; we're talking about your unfounded allegation that the man hasn't done his job.

Elmo wrote:

The PD's have resided over a government which has a department called

Communications, Marine and Natural Resourse

Perhaps 3 of the most important Departments are in the one Department and the have nothing to do with each other.

Now you're really confusing me. Not only does that have nothing whatsoever to do with Michael McDowell - it's not even a department with a PD minister.

Clutching at straws?

BuffyBot

Now if you call that good Justice...

You do realise there is a bit more to the job than that....still a pretty unsubstantiated allegation tbh

Elmo

Now you're really confusing me. Not only does that have nothing whatsoever to do with Michael McDowell - it's not even a department with a PD minister.

Clutching at straws?

So as long as a Department in the Government has nothing to do with the PD's then they have no Responiblity.

But wait I thought they where partners in the Government.

IMO for were Ireland lies in the world of Economics the Department of Communications is Highly important, In relation to where Ireland lies in the World of Economics the Department of Natural Resources is Highly important (I am sure the PDs will agree that we cannot continue to rely on Oil and Coal, we should be to the fore of Wind power, Hydroelectic power and Rape Seed Oil production). and finally the Department of Marine is Hugely important to an Island.

Just because a PD is not in a position of power within that department does not mean that the PDs have no responiblity to make sure that that one department is 3.

Lets face it McDowell has stated that the PD did loads for NI. but according to you he does have anything to do with that part of the Government (Foreign Affairs).

I read them. If you operate on the assumption that the only responsibilities of the Minister for Justice are to personally guarantee the safe custody of minors in Garda stations, to single-handedly lower crime rates, to fail to introduce referenda and to avoid mentioning Sinn Féin in radio and newspaper articles, then I guess you could argue that he hasn't done his job.

Yes it is the responsiblity of the Department of Justice to insure that everyone in this country is treated equally. If I was Minister for Justice and I had found out about the Death of A Child while in Police Custody I would be very very annoyed and would be down at the station ASAP.

Maura Geoghegan Quinn was Minister For Justice during the X-Case and that cost that Government Dearly. The one thing the government should be annoyed at is the Death of A child in Police Custody. Why did it happen? It took 14 months before the Minster even responded to this issue.

But you are right it is not the Minister for Juctices job to Give out about Sinn Fein but thats all he does in Newspapers, on the Radio and Television. I have no problem with him doing it but he does it too often, and as siad by other posters Sinn Fein are an easy political Target.

I have given you a list of thing that he hasn't done, he has not reduce crime he has not increased garda presence, 2 of his main repsoniblities. What ever about the other stuff he hasn't done but he hasn't done that.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He has huge Reponsiblities

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

So as long as a Department in the Government has nothing to do with the PD's then they have no Responiblity.

But wait I thought they where partners in the Government.

I thought we were talking about Michael McDowell not doing his job as Minister for Justice? Unless that the DCMNR is somehow subsidiary to the DoJ, I don't see the connection.

Elmo wrote:

IMO for were Ireland lies in the world of Economics the Department of Communications is Highly important, In relation to where Ireland lies in the World of Economics the Department of Natural Resources is Highly important (I am sure the PDs will agree that we cannot continue to rely on Oil and Coal, we should be to the fore of Wind power, Hydroelectic power and Rape Seed Oil production). and finally the Department of Marine is Hugely important to an Island.

Just because a PD is not in a position of power within that department does not mean that the PDs have no responiblity to make sure that that one department is 3.

OK, but what does that have to do with the specific responsibilities of the Minister for Justice, whom you claim hasn't done his job?

Elmo wrote:

Lets face it McDowell has stated that the PD did loads for NI. but according to you he does have anything to do with that part of the Government (Foreign Affairs).

Liz O'Donnell played a pivotal role in the peace process while she was Minister of State at the DoFA. Not that that has anything to do with whether or not the Minister for Justice is doing his job.

Elmo wrote:

Yes it is the responsiblity of the Department of Justice to insure that everyone in this country is treated equally. If I was Minister for Justice and I had found out about the Death of A Child while in Police Custody I would be very very annoyed and would be down at the station ASAP.

Maura Geoghegan Quinn was Minister For Justice during the X-Case and that cost that Government Dearly. The one thing the government should be annoyed at is the Death of A child in Police Custody. Why did it happen? It took 14 months before the Minster even responded to this issue.

Unless responding to this one specific incident is the sum total of his job description, it doesn't mean he's not doing his job.

Elmo wrote:

I have given you a list of thing that he hasn't done, he has not reduce crime he has not increased garda presence, 2 of his main repsoniblities. What ever about the other stuff he hasn't done but he hasn't done that.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He has huge Reponsiblities

Until you list them in detail, and demonstrate that he has failed to meet any of them, your assertion that he's not doing his job remains unfounded (and a serious allegation, to boot).

Elmo

Liz O'Donnell played a pivotal role in the peace process while she was Minister of State at the DoFA. Not that that has anything to do with whether or not the Minister for Justice is doing his job.

I have more time for her, but she isn't the sum of all parts remember.

Until you list them in detail, and demonstrate that he has failed to meet any of them, your assertion that he's not doing his job remains unfounded (and a serious allegation, to boot).

So far you havn't shown me that he is doing a good job, I am sure he is doing something but not much.

I thought we were talking about Michael McDowell not doing his job as Minister for Justice? Unless that the DCMNR is somehow subsidiary to the DoJ, I don't see the connection.

Actually we are talking about The last 20 years of the PD and what they have done.

I am saying that DCMNR is not a good dept and both the Government (FF/PD) and the Civil Service should be embarest about such a mish mash of a Department.

Unless responding to this one specific incident is the sum total of his job description, it doesn't mean he's not doing his job.

IMO its a very ****ing large incident. Let me repeat that incident for:-

CHILD DIES IN GARDA CUSTODY

HUGE.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

So far you havn't shown me that he is doing a good job, I am sure he is doing something but not much.

You're the one that made the serious allegation. My assumption is that, by and large, he's doing his job. If you have information to the contrary, apart from one incident (which I'll come to in a minute), please share it.

Elmo wrote:

Actually we are talking about The last 20 years of the PD and what they have done.

I'm specifically challenging you to back up a serious allegation you made in the context of that discussion. You're failing to do so, which leads me to believe you have no evidence to support your accusation.

Elmo wrote:

I am saying that DCMNR is not a good dept and both the Government (FF/PD) and the Civil Service should be embarest about such a mish mash of a Department.

I have my own issues with the DCMNR, but to use them as a stick to beat the PDs with is, frankly, pathetic - especially given that it's not a department they're directly responsible for.

Elmo wrote:

IMO its a very ****ing large incident. Let me repeat that incident for:-

CHILD DIES IN GARDA CUSTODY

HUGE.

It's a big deal, certainly. Are you suggesting that if McDowell were doing his job, the child would not have died in Garda custody?

Elmo

I have my own issues with the DCMNR, but to use them as a stick to beat the PDs with is, frankly, pathetic - especially given that it's not a department they're directly responsible for.

No indeed but you can praise the PDs for the little that they have done. Dick Spring did alot for NI don't forget that but yes I feel that Liz O'Donnel is the most professional politican that the PD have she IMO should be a minister not McDowell.

I am basically saying that you can certainly take a look at all of the good things that the PDs have done but don't forget about what they haven't done.

DCMNR is one case
Increased Garda Presence is another
Crime is another

It's a big deal, certainly. Are you suggesting that if McDowell were doing his job, the child would not have died in Garda custody?

No! It would have happened and it is the worst thing that could have happened.

BUT

When Hugh Orde annouanced that it was the IRA that committed the northern bank Robbery, McDowell was on the Radio, TV and in the Newspapers spouting about the IRA and Sinn Fein.

YET

A young boy and his family don't count because they don't pose as a polictical threat so Mr. McDowell doesn't immediately make a statement.

While I am sure Mr. McDowell does a Job he is not Doing a good one. IMO.

And I feel that all of what I have says shows how afraid Mr. McDowell is of lossing power and that is currently what he has his eye. LOSS OF POWER.

Rather he should keep an eye on what he is there to do be Minister for Justice.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

No indeed but you can praise the PDs for the little that they have done.

I don't recall praising the PDs.

Elmo wrote:

I am basically saying that you can certainly take a look at all of the good things that the PDs have done but don't forget about what they haven't done.

DCMNR is one case
Increased Garda Presence is another
Crime is another

OK, I get that you don't like the PDs. What I took issue with is your assertion that Michael McDowell doesn't do his job.

Elmo wrote:

A young boy and his family don't count because they don't pose as a polictical threat so Mr. McDowell doesn't immediately make a statement.

You keep repeating that point, and I keep replying that it doesn't mean that he's not running his department.

Elmo wrote:

While I am sure Mr. McDowell does a Job he is not Doing a good one. IMO.

OK, so you were wrong when you said he's not doing his job: he is doing his job, but you're not happy with the way he's doing it. Right?

maccor

thats one strange way of debating . I think Elmo has made his/herself very clear and oscarbravo seems to be clutching at straws to keep the debate going. just my opinion mind you.

Elmo

I don't recall praising the PDs.

Sorry, I meant you Cann't and wasn't actually refering to you specifically.

OK, so you were wrong when you said he's not doing his job: he is doing his job, but you're not happy with the way he's doing it. Right?

He's not doing a good job and I have point out why he is not doing a good job.

I don't think there is much difference between not doing a job and doing a job badly.

oscarBravo

Elmo wrote:

He's not doing a good job and I have point out why he is not doing a good job.

Or, more accurately, you don't think he's doing a good job and you've pointed out why you don't think he's doing a good job.

Elmo wrote:

I don't think there is much difference between not doing a job and doing a job badly.

I think there's a big difference between stating as a fact that someone is not doing his job, and stating as an opinion that you don't believe someone is doing his job well.

Elmo

I think there's a big difference between stating as a fact that someone is not doing his job, and stating as an opinion that you don't believe someone is doing his job well.

Perhaps you should speak to McDowell about that.


Or any politican for that matter.

I beleive he isn't doing his JOB.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Elmo

McDowell introduces a DNA database he's accused of being a facist,

I would think that a DNA DB is something that needs to be done, but like everything in this country one government will suggested and start implementing it while the next 3 governments will lay claim to some of its success or lack of success.

I would not think a DNA DB is a facist move. Sure we could call Finger Printing DB as facist if that is the case.

Who accused him of being a facist for introducing it. I must be a Facist as I though a DNA DB would have been set up long ago.

Perhaps I watch too much CSI.

Jackz

maccor I think you might want to reread the debate:

It would seem to me that Elmo is making points without any evidence to back them up and oscar is asking for this evidence.

In my opinion McDowell is doing what every politicion does; pointing out the failings of another party. In my opinion he does not fear Sinn Fein he fears people voting for them because they don't know much about politics and voting for Sinn Fein seems patriotic to them.

As we get closer to election time I would like to see some of SF's proposed policies in greater detail. Can I ask the Sinn Fein supporters on this thread why they think Sinn Fein being in government will be good for the Republic of Ireland?

Here is what I hope FF and the PD's return to government and the current prosperity of the country continues. I feel that the current goverment if given the chance will make the improvements that they have promised in justuce, infrastucture and health. These are the areas of intrest to me. I dont want more money from them I don't want them to take any less of my money I just want them to spend the money im currently giving them well. They have clear plans and well developed policies which in my opinion are good policies they have had problems with implementation and assurances have been made that this will be planed better and monitored closely.
PPARS was a screw up as was electronic voting, ok im critical of our tax money being wasted on both counts. I am very happy with the Luas. I am happy with improvements that have been made to the road I use to travel to work. Broadband has made it to my small town. The american company I work for are in the country. etc.

I don't want Enda Kenny, I don't want Gerry Adams, I don't want Trevor Seargent and I don't want Pat Rabbit.

Happy Birthday, PDs...

Elmo

I am very happy with the Luas

FG/Labour government started the ball rolling on that one.

Either with LUAS you can do what FF/PDs want you to do and say

"Sure we went way over budget but would get rid of it now, sure isn't grand".

I have pointed out the failings of the PDs and of Micheal McDowell. I don't want them in next time. I wouldn't mind FF being returned with Labour or FG or The Greens.

I personally don't want FG or PDs in government.

Broadband has made it to my small town. The american company I work for are in the country

How long where you waiting for BB. Just because you have BB doesn't mean everyone else has BB. As far as I know where I come from in Dublin you still have problem getting BB.

The american company won't leave if the PDs go from government, but then some american companies are already leaving. You might want to take a pay cut.

I have list failing of the PD which are substaniated. If you want to ignor what Mr. McDowell fails to do then go ahead. But you be stupid to turn a blind eye to his slyness.

What are you going to do? Wait for things to change and then say oh well they got there in the end.

Sure when the Port Tunnel is finish we can all finally say. WOW what a wonderful job they have done, over budget and too late. But sure Next year you won't have to put up with the Trucks on the Road. Except for the SUPER TRUCKS. and sure there's not that many of them about.

I wait for a good reason to keep M. McDowell in Power.

Cork

Elmo wrote:

Except for the SUPER TRUCKS. and sure there's not that many of them about.

And if the tunnel accomadated super trucks - people would be cribbing that we were leaving fuel gozzling, air polluting vehicles into our country.

You simply cannot please the country.

The PDs did bring in the mimimum wage. They have certainly a better record than Enda Kenny & Pat Rabbitt over the last 20 years.

Elmo

And if the tunnel accomadated super trucks - people would be cribbing that we were leaving fuel gozzling, air polluting vehicles into our country.

Classic FF/PD sh1t. well done did you take lessons from Martin Cullen. I think he's the inhouse trainer.

Enda Kenny & Pat Rabbitt

God this is our choice.

Jackz

FG/Labour government started the ball rolling on that one.

Can you substantiate this for me?

Was Luas not on budget (Not the original estimate, what it was tendered at.) and ahead of time?

I have pointed out the failings of the PDs and of Micheal McDowell.

You have made some sweeping statements.

You are particularly aggrieved over the young boy dieing in police custody. It is terrible thing that happened, but I'm sure there are Garda procedures for investigating incidents like this and it is not in the remit of the Minister for Justice to micro-manage the Gardai but to propose and implement justice policy. Perhaps after a certain amount of time had passed and if he had been contacted by the family or council for the family he should have intervened, its still a ****ty situation that would not be made better by anything.

I waited longer than I would have liked for BB but I'm happy at the progress that has been made since I was connecting to Indigo at 14K. The argument could be made that as the biggest exporter of software in Europe and a country presenting itself to the world as highly developed BB should have been rolled out with the greatest urgency. This cannot be the only consideration though when doing this the roll out should make the best financial sense and every implementation of infrastructure is going to face problems. I'm not saying they did it well or properly but your making sweeping simplistic statements for all of your arguments have you more meaningful opinions or information in regard to any of your arguments.

but then some american companies are already leaving

Companies come and go, we are not exactly experiencing a mass exodus.
The company I work for also has a base in the uk, on a number of occasions when the customer relationship was not going smoothly the company was transfered to us and each time they responded more positively to us. Not because we are smarter or more professional but because of our attitude, this is key to the success of Ireland in many sectors in my opinion.

Cork

Elmo wrote:

did you take lessons from Martin Cullen(

No. I am not saying the PDS are perfect. I would worry about this country loosing competiveness.

I would also worry about th cost of living.

But the hieght of an underground tunnel to allow polluting fuel gozzlers on our roads and thru our villages - I think the bertie got it right.

fly_agaric

mike65 wrote:

fly_agaric, Daveirl should be credited for the following...
Mike.

Sorry about that!:o Done.

@oscarBravo - As regards Ayn Rand (sp before) I exaggerate for effect. No politician would ever come out with a statement as bald as "greed is good" anyway - even the republicans in the US wouldn't be so blunt. I do think it is a key part of the PeeDee philosophy (if there is such a thing).

LordSutch

Elmo wrote:

This is my problem that's all he does give out about SF or the IRA. He doesn't do what he is supposed to do and that is to run the Justice system rather he talks about SF/IRA.

The fact that he gives out about SF all the time is a good thing as far as I am concerned, everybody else is too bloody polite and afraid to rock the Shinner boat, but McDowell isnt afraid to call a Provo a Provo face to face (and thats a good thing), because the one thing none of us want down here is a corruption of our Democracy by the Shinners, or at least (until they are clean and decontaminated) and that wont be until well after the Next Dail, I certainly dont want the "New All ireland Currency" (as Mr Adams calls for in his latest book) I also dont want Intel or Dell getting itchy feet, so Rock-On the PD's and specially McDowell for calling a spade a spade.

Elmo

I also dont want Intel or Dell getting itchy feet, so Rock-On the PD's and specially McDowell for calling a spade a spade.

I have no problem with McDowell calling a spade a spade. But he rarely gives interviews about his Department. (Like most ministers) But he continually stands on his high hourse about the IRA.

And this gives me the impression that he has nothing else better to do but to go on the TV and Radio and write articles in the newspaper about Sinn Fein and the IRA.

As I said after the nothern bank robbery he was on the TV and Radio and write articles in the newspaper that is was the IRA that did it, thanks for pointing out the ****ing obovious but I didn't realise that it was the minister For Justices job to come out with such allogations before anyone has been arrested.

But then we have this Child that dies in garda custody, and the Minister for Juctice is in Sclience, I would have though that such a death is more important then 20,000,000 pounds.

To me it comes across as though he has little to be doing.

I also dont want Intel or Dell getting itchy feet

Q. Did they not reduce staff in Ireland this year?

I don't think Dell and Intel will worry as much about such a small party. The prob don't know who they are, let alone FF or FG.

Cronus333

PhoenixRising wrote:

The PD's deserve a lot of credit for hauling Irish politics back from the brink in the 80's. They were they only politicians with backbone who were willing to stand up and not take any more of the crap that was going on in Irish politics.

About the only politician I can say I have respect for these days is Michael McDowell. He's an intelligent, articulate and resolute politician who takes crap off nobody, especially the Sinn Fein terrorists/knackers (delete as appropriate).



Yeah I'd like to see him as Tanaiste also - about the only decent politician we have in Ireland at the moment.

at last someone sees the light!

Capt'n Midnight

"High standards in high places" - pity it turned out to be just another slogan.

While others argue that they helped reform FF, lets not forget that they left FF the didn't take many votes with them. The problem is that people still voted for FF despite the corruption.

They split the vote of the opposition and there is a chance that had they not existed FF might have become unelectable in the way that the tories have been in the UK for a while now.

DublinWriter

I personally don't like the PD's or McDowell, but Mary Harney has done a lot for Dublin (smog + deregulation of taxis).

Without the PD's reigning them in, FF would have run amok in a single-party government, so they have their uses.

However, I think we need a new 'Lib Dem' type party in Ireland. FF wobble from left to right like a top and it's hard to know what they really stand for other than the acquisition of power.