The Issue of Travellers.

The Clown Man

All I can say is that people who defend travellers and are so intent on their rights etc. either live in a suburb with little or no contact with members of the travelling community or have not experienced them in the normal walk of life. People with a romantic view of the travelling community must be blind to the reality of the trouble that surrounds them. Anyone who comes in contact with them at all knows the reality.

The vast majority of travellers have no respect whatsoever for anyone elses rights nevermind the law in general.

As for the comment earlier about travellers not getting anything, do you realise that that man would have been recieving around €2000 per week from the taxpayer in fully legitamate benefits. HE HAD 11 CHILDREN. And with his record and clear disrespect for the law and everyone else I'm sure he was doing his best to try and scam a second or third benefit cheque. I noted last night that although he "lived" in Galway his crime record seemed to be all in Dundalk. He was living in two places for a very good reason.

Anyway. This type of character is nothing new. These guys are the same the country over. And anyone in contact with them knows this.

llatsni

I try very very hard to remain open and unprejudiced toward the travelling community... but the bad minority make that a very very difficult task. I give you 3 stories that I assure you happened to friends of the family - but the exact locations and names will be left anonymous as in 1 case I'm sure the legal dealings have still not been finalised:

1 - A person we know lived in a house in the lucan area, a few years ago "she" decided to sell the house but unfortunately ran into a spot of bother with a group of aggressive travellers. They started harrasing her to begin with, and shortly after moved into her back garden. They continued to threaten and intimidate her, illegally trespassing and squating on her property. She was forced out of the house after she involved the police; who's attitude was far from helpful or forceful. The house is now in a state of partial ruin, the travellers are still there and she has been unable to retrieve compensation or bring any formal prosectution brought against these criminals. And obviously has not been able to sell the house.

2 - A land owner in the leixlip area had "her" field broken into by travellers who squatted there for about 4 months while the police sat back and watched. They caused in the region of 50 thousand euros worth of damage through the expense of cleaning, clearing and securing the field.

3 - A number of years ago a handshake deal was struck with an old man that he may have use a small house on a section of land in wicklow that was vacant. After his death squatters (who turned out to be 'travelling' relations of the man) had settled in his house. They refused to leave, and were let stay by the inaction of the police for so long that they now have "rights" to the property! This situation had to be "settled" out of court.

Sherlock

As regards children not being taken from either travellers or heroin addicts I think you'll find that lots of junkies have lost their kids due to being unable to look after them. Many a granny has to look after the kids of a junkie daughter and I'm sure social services have taken them too.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

but they both are being treated the same way by the state, both travellers, (whom who are accused of being cruel to their children here) and heroin addicts (whom (who are being accused of being cruel to their children here) are allowed to keep their children. So where is the discrimination between travellers and settled people then. If the heroin addicts were loosing their kids to the state and the travellers were not, then it would be discrimination, but they are not, hence discrimination here does not exist.

isn't heroin consumption a lifestyle choice?

Well my point (and the point made by the OP) was that the state has problems dealing with travellers for fear of being accused of discrimination. It is not a traveller's right to let their kids live in filth, yet they will claim it is. Heroin addicts won't form pressure groups saying that anyone who opposes them using heroin around their kids is a racist and that they have a right to do this, but traveller's will form their own groups demanding respect for their lifestyle choice, one aspect of which is allowing children to live in filth and go without a proper education. You can say what you like but I have seen representatives of these groups accuse dissenters of being racist for raising such issues. As I (and the OP) have already said the discrimination is in the way people are accused of being racist if they attempt to address problems with travellers.

Is heroin consumption a lifesyle choice? Yes it is, my point is that so is being a traveller. Living in a caravan is not a valid reason to be considered a unique race.

billy the squid

mcgarnicle wrote:

Well my point (and the point made by the OP) was that the state has problems dealing with travellers for fear of being accused of discrimination. It is not a traveller's right to let their kids live in filth yet they will claim it is.,

yet when a local council draws up plans for the construction of a halting site with propper facilities, the locals piss and moan about it. I don't think anyone chooses to "live in filth"

Heroin addicts won't form pressure groups saying that anyone who opposes them using heroin around their kids is a racist and that they have a right to do this, but traveller's will form their own groups demanding respect for their lifestyle choice, one aspect of which is allowing children to live in filth and go without a proper education.

To say that travellers demand a right to live in filth is somewhat stereotypical. the conditions lived by travellers are not all their own doing.

Travellers are subjected to racism, discrimination and exclusion everywhere in Ireland. This racism takes many forms, ranging from the most obvious refusal to serve them in pubs and all places of entertainment to institutionalised discrimination in all of the state services. Travellers are required to sign for their dole at a different time to the settled population and are only allowed to sign in certain exchanges. They must all use one separate clinic in Dublin for welfare claims, their children are frequently segregated in schools and subjected to second class education. In the Dublin area a separate Catholic parish performs all their marriages, funerals etc., and the sites that are provided for them are invariably situated beside canals, prisons, train tracks, dumps; and are located miles from shops and other services behind high walls and banks so that the settled population cannot see them. The results of this racism are clearly demonstrated in the health, education and accommodation statistics of their population. The Travellers Health Status Study published by the Health Research Board in 1987 revealed the following:

full text availible below
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ppapers/travellers.html

You can say what you like but I have seen representatives of these groups accuse dissenters of being racist for raising such issues. As I (and the OP) have already said this is that the discrimination is in the way people are accused of being racist if they attempt to address problems with travellers.

The OP claimed that travellers were receiveing special treatment from government and judiciary, i would assert that the opposite is true.

Is heroin consumption a lifesyle choice? Yes it is, my point is that so is being a traveller. Living in a caravan is not a valid reason to be considered a unique
race.

What does then, language, travellers have their own language, common history, travellers have a common history, religion, most travellers are catholic, Is race defined by skin colour, in that case then we could be all english for all you know.

dawballz

billy the squid wrote:

oh yeah, i forgot, settled people don't congregate in large groups and your statement that the risk of incidents amongst travellers is higher is your opinion.



So you do agree that you are more likely to be attacked on the street by a member of the settled community. yet if one traveller walks into a bar he is more likely to not be served than a settled person.

My parents used to own a pub(owned it for 5 years).
They, and I have witnessed about 10 mass brawls which started inside and spilled out onto the street. 2 of those were because of travellers.

In the early years the travellers were allowed in.
One day they came in after a funeral(i think) and by the end of the night there was about 2 borken windows, 1 sink pulled off the wall in the toilets, pool cues broken and others, amongst the fighting.

Another day they came in (different group of travellers, obviously).
They were ok until about 10pm, then the fighting started.
By 12am there was about 14 of them outside fighting on the street.

So out of the two times we let in a large group of travellers there was 2 large fights. That's a 100% crime(?) rate.
So lets take the other 8 or so large fights that occured.
5 years x 363 days(closed Xmas and good friday) = 1815 days, minus the two days that the travellers were in = 1813.
So in 1813 days there was 8 large fights, that's a crime rate of 0.44%, if I've worked it out correctly.

The Clown Man

BTW 11 children = €1878.90 in child benefit alone.

That's before the multitude of other benefits he would have been entitled to.

billy the squid

The Clown Man wrote:

BTW 11 children = €1878.90 in child benefit alone.

That's before the multitude of other benefits he would have been entitled to.

everyone is entitled to child benefit though, and when you have biggoted employers refusing to give you a start, what other choice is there but social welfare. the situation is the same for some who live in council estates.

billy the squid

dawballz wrote:

My parents used to own a pub(owned it for 5 years).
They, and I have witnessed about 10 mass brawls which started inside and spilled out onto the street. 2 of those were because of travellers.

In the early years the travellers were allowed in.
One day they came in after a funeral(i think) and by the end of the night there was about 2 borken windows, 1 sink pulled off the wall in the toilets, pool cues broken and others, amongst the fighting.

Another day they came in (different group of travellers, obviously).
They were ok until about 10pm, then the fighting started.
By 12am there was about 14 of them outside fighting on the street.

So out of the two times we let in a large group of travellers there was 2 large fights. That's a 100% crime(?) rate.
So lets take the other 8 or so large fights that occured.
5 years x 363 days(closed Xmas and good friday) = 1815 days, minus the two days that the travellers were in = 1813.
So in 1813 days there was 8 large fights, that's a crime rate of 0.44%, if I've worked it out correctly.

what happened to the people who started the other 8 brawls.

you should have included a blow-by-blow description of the other eight fights too so as we can get an idea as to how settled people behave.

did ye ban people from the same area of town as the people who started the eight other fights, i doubt it.

The Clown Man

ROFL and that is €97,702.80 per year. on Child benefit.

TAX FREE!!!

If a single person wanted to earn that he would have to be on the books as earning OVER €150,000.00 per year!*

Oh My God. Who said travellers don't get anything?



*According to tax calculator at http://www.esatclear.ie/~grabe/TaxCalc/TaxCalc.html

The Clown Man

billy the squid wrote:

everyone is entitled to child benefit though, and when you have biggoted employers refusing to give you a start, what other choice is there but social welfare. the situation is the same for some who live in council estates.

Do you think he had 11 kids because he wanted to be a good father?

He clearly had no intention of getting a job. Leave the biggoted employers alone. :rolleyes:

billy the squid

All I can say is that people who defend travellers and are so intent on their rights etc. either live in a suburb with little or no contact with members of the travelling community or have not experienced them in the normal walk of life. People with a romantic view of the travelling community must be blind to the reality of the trouble that surrounds them. Anyone who comes in contact with them at all knows the reality.

and you came to the conclusion that ALL those who are defending travellers are upper-middle class hippies who have had no contact with travellers. but then this thread is full of generalisations isnt it. I'm no middle-class hippy and have had plenty of contact with travellers, but then you just came to your conclusion without giving it a second thought didnt you.

FTA69

the_syco wrote:

The knackers NEVER get fined. Or even charged.

"Knacker" is a highly abusive and racist term, would you call a black person a "n*gger"?

billy the squid

The Clown Man wrote:

ROFL and that is €97,702.80 per year. on Child benefit.

TAX FREE!!!

If a single person wanted to earn that he would have to be on the books as earning OVER €150,000.00 per year!*

Oh My God. Who said travellers don't get anything?



*According to tax calculator at http://www.esatclear.ie/~grabe/TaxCalc/TaxCalc.html

why dont you go and calculate what a settled person with 11 kids gets. you will find that it would be the same amount in child benefit.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

yet when a local council draws up plans for the construction of a halting site with propper facilities, the locals piss and moan about it. I don't think anyone chooses to "live in filth"

That has nothing to do with what I was saying. My point was that if the police arrest a traveller or try to deal with travellers, for whatever reason, they are accused of racism and discrmination. Travellers chose to live in their filthy haulting sites because they can pack up and leave when it suits them.

billy the squid wrote:

To say that travellers demand a right to live in filth is somewhat stereotypical. the conditions lived by travellers are not all their own doing.

Stereotypical yes, doesn't mean it's not true though. I have never seen a clean halting site. Of course it is their own doing, they make the mess.

billy the squid wrote:

full text availible below
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ppapers/travellers.html

I'm not bothered reading that, going by the bit you have posted it reads like a combination of what the traveller's supporters have said in this thread and some bureaucratic neccesity rising from the fact that travellers don't have a fixed residency.

billy the squid wrote:

The OP claimed that travellers were receiveing special treatment from government and judiciary, i would assert that the opposite is true.

No he didn't, he claimed that when the police tried to prosecute travellers they were accused of being racist.

billy the squid wrote:

What does then, language, travellers have their own language, common history, travellers have a common history, religion, most travellers are catholic, Is race defined by skin colour, in that case then we could be all english for all you know.

Travellers are Irish and even then I wasn't aware that "Irish" was a unique race. We don't speak French are we a different race to the French? A common history, what history, the history of living in caravans? Religion, the same religion as most people in this country. Are we all English? I won't say we are English, but I believe we are the same racially and so are travellers.

Fionne

Am I naive? Cos I tend to judge people as I meet them. Unless someone does wrong to me personally I'm not gonna make sweeping generalisations.

And I do have experience of travellers, as I live in an area that has an annual horse fair. For several years the travellers parked their caravans on the green in front of my parents house. For the most part there wasn't an iota of trouble and they left the place clean afterwards. I know that's not always the case but as I said, I judge people as individuals.

Also, if you're gonna be blamed for everything isn't there a temptation to just do it? I know that where I live there's always a spate of break-ins, cars being vandalised, etc around the time the travellers are in the area but I'd guess that 90% of that is done by settled people from the local area cos they know who's gonna be blamed - the travellers.

I also worked in a chipshop and witnessed first hand how hostile a welcome they get. My boss used to brandish a large stick and hold it up when a traveller even passed the door and shout "I've got my knacker stick!" at them. I was there one night when a local guy threw a bench through the front window, while travellers happened to be on the premises and of course, the guards, when they did arrive, were only interested in the travellers, not the lunatic settled local person who'd caused all the damage.

billy the squid

The Clown Man wrote:

Do you think he had 11 kids because he wanted to be a good father?

He clearly had no intention of getting a job. Leave the biggoted employers alone. :rolleyes:

or a good catholic maybe? birth control being forbidden by his faith. but you are proving my point that the actions of a minority are being used to label a whole community. it would be like me saying all dublin people are scum because martin cahil was scum.

Zaph0d

The Clown Man wrote:

ROFL and that is €97,702.80 per year. on Child benefit.

TAX FREE!!!

If a single person wanted to earn that he would have to be on the books as earning OVER €150,000.00 per year!*

Oh My God. Who said travellers don't get anything?



*According to tax calculator at http://www.esatclear.ie/~grabe/TaxCalc/TaxCalc.html

You're forgetting the free car they get from the state and the fact they don't get tax or insurance and the cops don't stop them for fear of being called racists.

Child benefit is a monthly not a weekly payment. It is not available to children over 15 unless they are in full time education and then only up to the age of 18. Ward's eldest children were above 18. So your estimate is about 10 times too high.

These benefits are the same for every parent in the state regardless of whether you are a traveller or not.

The Clown Man

Wicknight wrote:

Do you know how much it costs to raise 11 children ... it is a lot more than €150,000 a year. Sure it sounds great if you are single or married with 2 kids. But 11 kids, you would be scrapping by to feed and cloth them all. Besides most travellers have a very hard time claiming any form of social benefit because they often have no fixed address

LOL I'd say he managed! Remember this money is going towards food clothes and nothing else. The benefits are more than enough for food clothes petrol and a fine big pissup at the end of the week.

And Billy, on the contrary, I am very aware of the diversity of the members of travellers support groups. A collegue works closely with one of them. And he has his head in the clouds as regards their digressions from the straight and narrow.

Dave!

Oh give me a break, I would be more inclined to think that it's the majority that are criminal scumbags.

Go on, ask for stats...

No stats for ye boss, just basing this on experience.

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

"Knacker" is a highly abusive and racist term, would you call a black person a "n*gger"?

I've been waiting for an answer to that since last night, don't think i'm going to get it though.

The Clown Man

Zaph0d wrote:

You're forgetting the free car they get from the state and the fact they don't get tax or insurance and the cops don't stop them for fear of being called racists.

Child benefit is a monthly not a weekly payment. It is not available to children over 15 unless they are in full time education and then only up to the age of 18. Ward's eldest children were above 18. So your estimate is about 10 times too high.

These benefits are the same for every parent in the state regardless of whether you are a traveller or not.

Apologies, I didnt read it properly. No wonder I was so bemused!

However, my point is that he has eleven children for a reason.

Oh, and wards eldest was 19 and youngest was 1 1/2.

Anyway, enough of this, I should have left work 5 mins ago.

Zombrex

The Clown Man wrote:

LOL I'd say he managed! Remember this money is going towards food clothes and nothing else. €2000 a week is more than enough for food clothes petrol and a fine big pissup at the end of the week.

I was basing my assurtion on 2 facts -

1: I know that the children's alllowance is not enought to raise a child on its own

2: I assumed you would at least get your maths correct ... silly me :rolleyes:

€141.60 * 2 = €283.20
€177.30 * 9 = €1595.70

---

11 kids = €1,878.90 per month

11 kids = €22,546.80 per year

So is 22.5K enought to raise 11 kids? I make more than that and I am barely surviving ...

billy the squid

mcgarnicle wrote:

That has nothing to do with what I was saying. My point was that if the police arrest a traveller or try to deal with travellers, for whatever reason, they are accused of racism and discrmination. Travellers chose to live in their filthy haulting sites because they can pack up and leave when it suits them.

It has everything to do with it, having nowhere to build a halting site means that no halting site gets built.

Stereotypical yes, doesn't mean it's not true though. I have never seen a clean halting site. Of course it is their own doing, they make the mess.

Then you havent seen very many of them then have you

I'm not bothered reading that, going by the bit you have posted it reads like a combination of what the traveller's supporters have said in this thread and some bureaucratic neccesity rising from the fact that travellers don't have a fixed residency.

Or you just didnt like what it said.

No he didn't, he claimed that when the police tried to prosecute travellers they were accused of being racist.

Then both he and you need to do some research on the kind of "special treatment" the guards like to give travellers. you might find the results surprising.

Travellers are Irish and even then I wasn't aware that "Irish" was a unique race. We don't speak French are we a different race to the French? A common history, what history, the history of living in caravans? Religion, the same religion as most people in this country. Are we all English? I won't say we are English, but I believe we are the same racially and so are travellers.

That is not what I asked, I asked what defines a race. Ireland is predominantly catholic, it doesnt make us italians though.

bagdaddy

mountainyman wrote:

That's right the police never hassle travellers. Oh wait they do but just the poor ones just like settled people.

Is it just another case of the rich man trying to keep the poor man down?? Btw it is a well proven fact that crime is higher among poorer parts.

Zombrex

DaveMcG wrote:

Oh give me a break, I would be more inclined to think that it's the majority that are criminal scumbags.

The majority of travellers or the majority of travellers you have actually meet?

billy the squid

The Clown Man wrote:

Apologies, I didnt read it properly. No wonder I was so bemused!

However, my point is that he has eleven children for a reason.

Oh, and wards eldest was 19 and youngest was 1 1/2.

Anyway, enough of this, I should have left work 5 mins ago.

If his oldest was 19 then he would not have been receiving child benefit for him.

as I said before, which i see you havent done yet, how much would a settled family with 11 kids get from child benefit, i would imagine the figure is the same, no more no less.

Zaph0d

The Clown Man wrote:

However, my point is that he has eleven children for a reason.

Which reason? money?

Zaph0d

The Clown Man wrote:

Oh, and wards eldest was 19 and youngest was 1 1/2.

What is your source for this?

The Irish Times reports that his youngest was 4 and eldest 22.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/1112/3091984021HM1NALLY.html

billy the squid

I would also like to add that traveller families have always been big. even before child benefit was introduced in ireland, so to claim that travellers have big families for the sole purpose of getting al that child benefit is inacurate. also children cost money. so you cant claim that a person in receipt of childrens allowance is keeping this money all for themselves and spending **** all on the child.

the heroin addict mentioned above might though.

Boggle

bonkey wrote:

It is also the case that many aspects of Traveller culture and society are beneficial to children’s wellbeing

The same could be said about any disadvantage... Something good always comes out of it regardless of how much damage it does to someone. This argument could be ridiculously extended to say that slavery wasn't all bad cos it promoted good cameradery among the slaves. (And I understand its a ridiculous statement but its just an exageration of what you chose to take out of the report)

Its also worth noting that this situation is where social services have been called because a child who is enrolled to attend a school is presenting problems and is reported by someone to Social Services.

Its also worth noting that this situation is where social services have been called because a child who is enrolled to attend a school is presenting problems and is reported by someone to Social Services.

Okay, your starting to lose me here... What about the huge amount that do enrole and then drop out (see previous link)? What about the kids you see running around during the day? Do the gardai not report them? If not then it is dicrimination on behalf of the gardai, if they do and nothing is done then it is discrimination on behalf of the social worker... either way my point is proven - that different standards are allowed to exist for different communities.

And in case you dont believe that you or I would be brought up on this:

"1. At a sifting of the District Court held at Listowel on the 23 July, 1997, the said Accused Christine Best was prosecuted as follows:- 'that between 7 December, 1995 and 27 June, 1997, at Stacksmountain, Kilflynn, Co Kerry, in the court area and district aforesaid, she the said defendant, being the parent of William Best and Niall Best, children, not less than six nor more than fourteen years of age, had failed to comply with a warning notice served on her on the 21 February, 1997, in accordance with the provisions of the School Attendance Act, 1926, as amended by the School Attendance (Amendment) Act, 1967, requiring her within one week after the service of such warning notice to cause said children to attend school or to give to the enforcing authority for the said area a reasonable excuse for not so doing, contrary to the provisions of the statute in that ease made and provided'.

bonkey wrote:

What would be a relevant question is are settled people allowed rear their kids in a similar way.

Actually I was thinking about this - what would be the comparable living conditions of a settled child to that of a traveller child? i.e. how badly delapidated/cleaned a home would it have to be to compare to a halting site on the side of the road?? - or how bad an environment would it have to be to equate it to the way those kids must feel when farmers scream at them to get their grubby caravans off his land??

billy the squid

The same could be said about any disadvantage... Something good always comes out of it regardless of how much damage it does to someone. This argument could be ridiculously extended to say that slavery wasn't all bad cos it promoted good cameradery among the slaves. (And I understand its a ridiculous statement but its just an exageration of what you chose to take out of the report)

Being a traveller though is different to the slavery issue in that Travellers remain travellers of their own free will, whereas slaves did not have a choice, they had slavery thrust upon them by people outside of their cultural and social group. i do agree though that your statement is rediculous.

can you tell me what discrimination of travellers when it comes to work and service in shops and the like has added to society? maybe it gave people something to moan about.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

It has everything to do with it, having nowhere to build a halting site means that no halting site gets built.

What has that got to do with them claiming that the police arresting them is racist? If I mess up my house should the government build me a new one?

billy the squid wrote:

Then you havent seen very many of them then have you

I have seen plenty of them.

billy the squid wrote:

Or you just didnt like what it said.

I doubt I would have liked what it said, but I didn't read it.

billy the squid wrote:

Then both he and you need to do some research on the kind of "special treatment" the guards like to give travellers. you might find the results surprising.

No I don't, whatever some guards think of travellers doesn't negate the fact that once a garda tries to deal with a traveller he is accused of racism/discrimination.

billy the squid wrote:

That is not what I asked, I asked what defines a race. Ireland is predominantly catholic, it doesnt make us italians though.

What? Where did I say it did. My whole point was that race is not something based on religion or any one of those reasons you originally listed. Can you tell me why travellers are a different race to the rest of Ireland?

Boggle

Being a traveller though is different to the slavery issue in that Travellers remain travellers of their own free will, whereas slaves did not have a choice, they had slavery thrust upon them by people outside of their cultural and social group. i do agree though that your statement is rediculous

And you must barely read before you start hitting the keyboard. Read it again and notice that I was not discussing choice - I was discussing whether the fact that they're a close knit family makes up for their poor standard of living, poor education and limited choices in life... Incidentally, I don't see a hell of a lot of career choices for an uneducated traveller - couldn't even get a job in Xtra Vision without Juniour Cert!!

bonkey

Boggle wrote:

Okay, your starting to lose me here... What about the huge amount that do enrole and then drop out (see previous link)?

The point I was making is that those quotes show that the case presented in the link you supplied is far from open and shut. It shows both sides of the coin, and generally seems to be more arguing about how to get correct the system so that travellers aren't disadvantaged thus giving them equal opportunity as the law demands. If anything, it supports the claim that they are discriminated against whilst recognising and encouraging the will to reftify this.

What about the kids you see running around during the day? Do the gardai not report them? If not then it is dicrimination on behalf of the gardai,

Only if they treat traveller's kids differently to those of non-travellers. Do they report all kids? I don't believe so.

[quote[Actually I was thinking about this - what would be the comparable living conditions of a settled child to that of a traveller child? i.e. how badly delapidated/cleaned a home would it have to be to compare to a halting site on the side of the road?? - or how bad an environment would it have to be to equate it to the way those kids must feel when farmers scream at them to get their grubby caravans off his land??[/QUOTE]

You seem to be taking my opposition to unsubstantiated claims of discrimination based on assumption rather than fact as approval of a lifestyle.

This thread is not about whether or not I approve of their lifestyle.

The reason I brought up the questions about your post, as I've already cleared up, was that you were making claims presented as fact, and I wanted to find out if they were, or if they were based on assumptions of the standard used as a baseline. At best, it is only tangentially relevant, in that it would suggest we might as whether or not we are any better in levelling unsubstianted claims of discriination ourselves.

Many people seem to be confusing discrimination and approval or something else. The child support issue raised seperately is a case in point. The large number of support received for a large number of children applies equally to travellers and non-travellers alike. Whether or not there are other payments which are discriminatory is a completely seperate point, and a valid one at that.....but why the focus on the big shock-value nondiscriminatory numbers, followed with an and they get this stuff too addendum???

If we cannot make such distinctions ourselves, what (moral) right do we have to insist that something be done about others who equally fail to live up to standards?

jc

All I see on this thread is anecdotal evidence. 'I saw a fight'...'they smashed a bar'...'they hit my friend'...'they broke into a house'...etc. etc. At the risk of repeating myself, I could tell the same stories, only substituting the word 'Corkonian' for 'traveller'. And yet some of my best friends are from Cork...

bonkey

Addendum:

Perhaps more importantly, if we can ensure there are fewer/no unsupportable (and thus arguably racially/culturally motivated) claims levelled against the travelling community, we can have faith that any false claims of discrimination levelled in return.

For this reason, even if your assumptions prove right, I would feel you would be better being able to support it more factually. And should they be incorrect, or unproveable and thus indeterminate....well....aren't you just adding fuel to the fire?

billy the squid

What? Where did I say it did. My whole point was that race is not something based on religion or any one of those reasons you originally listed. Can you tell me why travellers are a different race to the rest of Ireland?

to answer this one has to find out what defines an ethnic group
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&hs=wBR&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:ETHNIC+GROUP

Travellers do indeed have their own language (shelta)
They have a common history
They share the same religion

and I believe that you are basing your opinion that All halting sites are "filty" based on the few you claim to have seen. you have not seen ALL the halting sites in the country therefore you are not qualified to make such a claim.

Boggle wrote:

And you must barely read before you start hitting the keyboard. Read it again and notice that I was not discussing choice - I was discussing whether the fact that they're a close knit family makes up for their poor standard of living, poor education and limited choices in life... Incidentally, I don't see a hell of a lot of career choices for an uneducated traveller - couldn't even get a job in Xtra Vision without Juniour Cert!!

why would they want to work in Xtra-vision when they can brobably make more money in whatever business the family runs, whether it be horses, scrap or whatever.

I have also seen travellers with leaving Certs, turned away when looking for work.

mcgarnicle

mcgarnicle wrote:

No I don't, whatever some guards think of travellers doesn't negate the fact that once a garda tries to deal with a traveller he is accused of racism/discrimination.

A friend of mine, retired garda, took particular delight in turning over traveller's caravans and thrashing them. Even when they had done nothing, he just wanted to give them a little message about moving on. Fierce nice guy, just didn't like seeing our little town upset by their presence. Just constant thrashing, day after day, until they went...

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

to answer this one has to find out what defines an ethnic group
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&hs=wBR&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:ETHNIC+GROUP

Travellers do indeed have their own language (shelta)
They have a common history
They share the same religion

What history? Their common religion doesn't seperate them from the rest of the country since they have the same religion.

billy the squid wrote:

and I believe that you are basing your opinion that All halting sites are "filty" based on the few you claim to have seen. you have not seen ALL the halting sites in the country therefore you are not qualified to make such a claim.

That combined with what I have seen on tv, read in the paper, heard on the radio, been told by people I know. I have never come across a clean halting site in any of these. Maybe there are a few but it is obvious most are a disgrace.
Speaking of where we are basing our oppinions on, I read your link and was about to comment on it until I read it was by an Irish anarchist organisation, which says enough about it to be honest.

mcgarnicle

Deleted User wrote:

A friend of mine, retired garda, took particular delight in turning over traveller's caravans and thrashing them. Even when they had done nothing, he just wanted to give them a little message about moving on. Fierce nice guy, just didn't like seeing our little town upset by their presence. Just constant thrashing, day after day, until they went...

Sounds like he should have been sacked. Again the fact that the odd garda doesn't like travellers doesn't take away from the fact that in general it is hard for the gardai to deal with them incase they end up being accused of being racist etc. Unless you want to generalise all Gardai as being out to get travellers?

billy the squid

mcgarnicle wrote:

What history? Their common religion doesn't seperate them from the rest of the country since they have the same religion.

Thus my bringing up the Italian people, they share the same religion as us. do you deny that they are a separate ethnic group, or that we are a separate ethnic group as them simply because we have the same religion.

That combined with what I have seen on tv, read in the paper, heard on the radio, been told by people I know.

this is the same TV Radio Newspapers, that portray Limerick City as a crime infested hellhole, the crime capital of Ireland right? you really shouldnt believe everything you see in the media.

I have never come across a clean halting site in any of these. Maybe there are a few but it is obvious most are a disgrace.

I have been to loads of halting sites, most of them were spotless.

Speaking of where we are basing our oppinions on, I read your link and was about to comment on it until I read it was by an Irish anarchist organisation, which says enough about it to be honest.

I've no personal allegience with anarchists, but what they do say on how travellers are treated in ireland happens to be true. its a pity you cannot debunk the message though, rather attack where it came from.

mcgarnicle

mcgarnicle wrote:

I have never come across a clean halting site in any of these. Maybe there are a few but it is obvious most are a disgrace.

Tbh, I wouldn't get too hung up on the cleanliness issue. After all, it was the card usually played about all of the Irish people in the 19th century. We were filthy little oiks, the 'pig in the parlour', and thus one step above savagery and incapable of controlling ourselves...pah...

billy the squid

mcgarnicle wrote:

Sounds like he should have been sacked. Again the fact that the odd garda doesn't like travellers doesn't take away from the fact that in general it is hard for the gardai to deal with them incase they end up being accused of being racist etc. Unless you want to generalise all Gardai as being out to get travellers?

A garda who puts the sqeeze on law abiding members of the travelling comunity will go un noticed, but if same police force were to harass a bunch of immigrants, there would be hell to pay.

the_syco

fonril wrote:

And I do have experience of travellers, as I live in an area that has an annual horse fair. For several years the travellers parked their caravans on the green in front of my parents house. For the most part there wasn't an iota of trouble and they left the place clean afterwards. I know that's not always the case but as I said, I judge people as individuals.

I agree with this. Travellers are usually nice people. Knackers, tho, are not. The difference between a knacker and a traveller, is that a traveller will travel, and leave no mess behind them (to the point of hiring out a skip), but a knacker will stay as long as they can, and leave a mess behind them.

=-=

I don't really care if someone is black. I call white people nigg*rs, in a "yo nigg*r, wots the craic?" fashion. And yes, I know that "knacker" is not nice, but tough sh|t. I'm not going to call them travellers, as the f*ckers don't travel. They stay in the one place, expect free parking, free water, and a free house. Also, they expect you to clean up their mess after them.

=-=

Oh, as for travellers families being big, its expected. Reasons: back in the 1900's, rural families were big, for a number of reasons, such as a high death rate of young children, and also so that the children could support the parents. There is little difference between our situation then, and the travellers situation now. I'd say about 50% of the kids die at a young age, and as you need (correct me if I'm wrong) an address to claim a pension (even a state paid one, I'd say), the travellers wouldn't be able to claim one, thus they need their children to keep them. Added to the that, some may not be an Irish resident, thus the Irish goverment wouldn't give them a state pension.

billy the squid wrote:

make more money in whatever business the family runs, whether it be horses, scrap

Aye. This scrap business is highly profitable. The only pity is that the county council has to clean it up, once the knackers leave.

Zaph0d

mcgarnicle wrote:

What history? Their common religion doesn't seperate them from the rest of the country since they have the same religion.

The legal definition of an ethnic group was established in UK law in 1983 (Mandla Vs Lee) http://www.hrcr.org/safrica/equality/Mandla_DowellLee.htm)
as follows:

For a group to constitute an 'ethnic group' for the purposes of the 1976 Act it had to regard itself, and be regarded by others, as a distinct community by virtue of certain characteristics, two of which were essential. First it had to have a long shared history, of which the group was conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it kept alive, and second it had to have a cultural tradition of its own, including family and social customs and manners, often but not necessarily associated with religious observance. In addition, the following characteristics could also be relevant, namely (a) either a common geographical origin or descent from a small number of common ancestors, (b) a common language, which did not necessarily have to be peculiar to the group, (c) a common literature peculiar to the group, (d) a common religion different from that of neighbouring groups or from the general community surrounding it, and (e) the characteristic of being a minority orbeing an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community.

Also see this post for more discussion of what constitutes an ethnic group:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1978436&postcount=23

It would be very difficult to argue that travellers do not form an ethnic group give the weight of legal and academic evidence. Despite this, the charge is frequently levelled at them that they do not form an ethinc group and are merely people living in caravans.

the_syco

On the matter of filthy halting sites, its like bad news. It travels fast. You never hear about a clean one, because no-one complains about it. You only complain about the dirty ones, thus the clean ones never get mentioned, thus you'd think they don't exist.

Yet they do. And as long as they can stay there, the halting site usually gets a community spirit, and after awhile, it looks like a holiday park, as its so clean, and looked after.

But if you put two feuding families into the same site, or there isn't that much room there, but they decide to cram as much into it, your not going to get a nice place to live.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

Thus my bringing up the Italian people, they share the same religion as us. do you deny that they are a separate ethnic group, or that we are a separate ethnic group as them simply because we have the same religion.

Do I deny the Italians are a different race to the Irish? Yes. You still haven't shown why travellers are a different race to the other Irish, even if I accepted that Italians were another race that still does not prove that travellers are.

billy the squid wrote:

this is the same TV Radio Newspapers, that portray Limerick City as a crime infested hellhole, the crime capital of Ireland right? you really shouldnt believe everything you see in the media.
I have been to loads of halting sites, most of them were spotless.

Well if you can use some anarchist organisation to back up your points then I think I am perfectly justified in using the national media to back mine up.

billy the squid wrote:

I've no personal allegience with anarchists, but what they do say on how travellers are treated in ireland happens to be true. its a pity you cannot debunk the message though, rather attack where it came from.

It is true yes, but I read nothing in that article that the travellers could not solve by getting an education and sorting themselves out.

mcgarnicle

Zaph0d wrote:

The legal definition of an ethnic group was established in UK law in 1983 (Mandla Vs Lee) http://www.hrcr.org/safrica/equality/Mandla_DowellLee.htm)
as follows:



Also see this post for more discussion of what constitutes an ethnic group:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1978436&postcount=23

It would be very difficult to argue that travellers do not form an ethnic group give the weight of legal and academic evidence. Despite this, the charge is frequently levelled at them that they do not form an ethinc group and are merely people living in caravans.

I think it is pretty easy to argue they don't. Going by the reasons you have listed somebody in the Gaeltacht would have a far more valid case for depicting themselves as a separate race than travellers.
If they stopped living in caravans would they still be a separate race?

Jackz

Did anybody see the special last night about Padraig Nally / John Ward. There was mention of 8 cases of elderly people murdered in their homes and in the 5 cases that were prosecuted the offenders were member of the traveling community is this correct just recalling from memory here.