The Issue of Travellers.

The Clown Man

billy the squid wrote:

everyone is entitled to child benefit though, and when you have biggoted employers refusing to give you a start, what other choice is there but social welfare. the situation is the same for some who live in council estates.

Do you think he had 11 kids because he wanted to be a good father?

He clearly had no intention of getting a job. Leave the biggoted employers alone. :rolleyes:

billy the squid

All I can say is that people who defend travellers and are so intent on their rights etc. either live in a suburb with little or no contact with members of the travelling community or have not experienced them in the normal walk of life. People with a romantic view of the travelling community must be blind to the reality of the trouble that surrounds them. Anyone who comes in contact with them at all knows the reality.

and you came to the conclusion that ALL those who are defending travellers are upper-middle class hippies who have had no contact with travellers. but then this thread is full of generalisations isnt it. I'm no middle-class hippy and have had plenty of contact with travellers, but then you just came to your conclusion without giving it a second thought didnt you.

FTA69

the_syco wrote:

The knackers NEVER get fined. Or even charged.

"Knacker" is a highly abusive and racist term, would you call a black person a "n*gger"?

billy the squid

The Clown Man wrote:

ROFL and that is €97,702.80 per year. on Child benefit.

TAX FREE!!!

If a single person wanted to earn that he would have to be on the books as earning OVER €150,000.00 per year!*

Oh My God. Who said travellers don't get anything?



*According to tax calculator at http://www.esatclear.ie/~grabe/TaxCalc/TaxCalc.html

why dont you go and calculate what a settled person with 11 kids gets. you will find that it would be the same amount in child benefit.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

yet when a local council draws up plans for the construction of a halting site with propper facilities, the locals piss and moan about it. I don't think anyone chooses to "live in filth"

That has nothing to do with what I was saying. My point was that if the police arrest a traveller or try to deal with travellers, for whatever reason, they are accused of racism and discrmination. Travellers chose to live in their filthy haulting sites because they can pack up and leave when it suits them.

billy the squid wrote:

To say that travellers demand a right to live in filth is somewhat stereotypical. the conditions lived by travellers are not all their own doing.

Stereotypical yes, doesn't mean it's not true though. I have never seen a clean halting site. Of course it is their own doing, they make the mess.

billy the squid wrote:

full text availible below
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ppapers/travellers.html

I'm not bothered reading that, going by the bit you have posted it reads like a combination of what the traveller's supporters have said in this thread and some bureaucratic neccesity rising from the fact that travellers don't have a fixed residency.

billy the squid wrote:

The OP claimed that travellers were receiveing special treatment from government and judiciary, i would assert that the opposite is true.

No he didn't, he claimed that when the police tried to prosecute travellers they were accused of being racist.

billy the squid wrote:

What does then, language, travellers have their own language, common history, travellers have a common history, religion, most travellers are catholic, Is race defined by skin colour, in that case then we could be all english for all you know.

Travellers are Irish and even then I wasn't aware that "Irish" was a unique race. We don't speak French are we a different race to the French? A common history, what history, the history of living in caravans? Religion, the same religion as most people in this country. Are we all English? I won't say we are English, but I believe we are the same racially and so are travellers.

Fionne

Am I naive? Cos I tend to judge people as I meet them. Unless someone does wrong to me personally I'm not gonna make sweeping generalisations.

And I do have experience of travellers, as I live in an area that has an annual horse fair. For several years the travellers parked their caravans on the green in front of my parents house. For the most part there wasn't an iota of trouble and they left the place clean afterwards. I know that's not always the case but as I said, I judge people as individuals.

Also, if you're gonna be blamed for everything isn't there a temptation to just do it? I know that where I live there's always a spate of break-ins, cars being vandalised, etc around the time the travellers are in the area but I'd guess that 90% of that is done by settled people from the local area cos they know who's gonna be blamed - the travellers.

I also worked in a chipshop and witnessed first hand how hostile a welcome they get. My boss used to brandish a large stick and hold it up when a traveller even passed the door and shout "I've got my knacker stick!" at them. I was there one night when a local guy threw a bench through the front window, while travellers happened to be on the premises and of course, the guards, when they did arrive, were only interested in the travellers, not the lunatic settled local person who'd caused all the damage.

billy the squid

The Clown Man wrote:

Do you think he had 11 kids because he wanted to be a good father?

He clearly had no intention of getting a job. Leave the biggoted employers alone. :rolleyes:

or a good catholic maybe? birth control being forbidden by his faith. but you are proving my point that the actions of a minority are being used to label a whole community. it would be like me saying all dublin people are scum because martin cahil was scum.

Zaph0d

The Clown Man wrote:

ROFL and that is €97,702.80 per year. on Child benefit.

TAX FREE!!!

If a single person wanted to earn that he would have to be on the books as earning OVER €150,000.00 per year!*

Oh My God. Who said travellers don't get anything?



*According to tax calculator at http://www.esatclear.ie/~grabe/TaxCalc/TaxCalc.html

You're forgetting the free car they get from the state and the fact they don't get tax or insurance and the cops don't stop them for fear of being called racists.

Child benefit is a monthly not a weekly payment. It is not available to children over 15 unless they are in full time education and then only up to the age of 18. Ward's eldest children were above 18. So your estimate is about 10 times too high.

These benefits are the same for every parent in the state regardless of whether you are a traveller or not.

The Clown Man

Wicknight wrote:

Do you know how much it costs to raise 11 children ... it is a lot more than €150,000 a year. Sure it sounds great if you are single or married with 2 kids. But 11 kids, you would be scrapping by to feed and cloth them all. Besides most travellers have a very hard time claiming any form of social benefit because they often have no fixed address

LOL I'd say he managed! Remember this money is going towards food clothes and nothing else. The benefits are more than enough for food clothes petrol and a fine big pissup at the end of the week.

And Billy, on the contrary, I am very aware of the diversity of the members of travellers support groups. A collegue works closely with one of them. And he has his head in the clouds as regards their digressions from the straight and narrow.

Dave!

Oh give me a break, I would be more inclined to think that it's the majority that are criminal scumbags.

Go on, ask for stats...

No stats for ye boss, just basing this on experience.

billy the squid

FTA69 wrote:

"Knacker" is a highly abusive and racist term, would you call a black person a "n*gger"?

I've been waiting for an answer to that since last night, don't think i'm going to get it though.

The Clown Man

Zaph0d wrote:

You're forgetting the free car they get from the state and the fact they don't get tax or insurance and the cops don't stop them for fear of being called racists.

Child benefit is a monthly not a weekly payment. It is not available to children over 15 unless they are in full time education and then only up to the age of 18. Ward's eldest children were above 18. So your estimate is about 10 times too high.

These benefits are the same for every parent in the state regardless of whether you are a traveller or not.

Apologies, I didnt read it properly. No wonder I was so bemused!

However, my point is that he has eleven children for a reason.

Oh, and wards eldest was 19 and youngest was 1 1/2.

Anyway, enough of this, I should have left work 5 mins ago.

Zombrex

The Clown Man wrote:

LOL I'd say he managed! Remember this money is going towards food clothes and nothing else. €2000 a week is more than enough for food clothes petrol and a fine big pissup at the end of the week.

I was basing my assurtion on 2 facts -

1: I know that the children's alllowance is not enought to raise a child on its own

2: I assumed you would at least get your maths correct ... silly me :rolleyes:

€141.60 * 2 = €283.20
€177.30 * 9 = €1595.70

---

11 kids = €1,878.90 per month

11 kids = €22,546.80 per year

So is 22.5K enought to raise 11 kids? I make more than that and I am barely surviving ...

billy the squid

mcgarnicle wrote:

That has nothing to do with what I was saying. My point was that if the police arrest a traveller or try to deal with travellers, for whatever reason, they are accused of racism and discrmination. Travellers chose to live in their filthy haulting sites because they can pack up and leave when it suits them.

It has everything to do with it, having nowhere to build a halting site means that no halting site gets built.

Stereotypical yes, doesn't mean it's not true though. I have never seen a clean halting site. Of course it is their own doing, they make the mess.

Then you havent seen very many of them then have you

I'm not bothered reading that, going by the bit you have posted it reads like a combination of what the traveller's supporters have said in this thread and some bureaucratic neccesity rising from the fact that travellers don't have a fixed residency.

Or you just didnt like what it said.

No he didn't, he claimed that when the police tried to prosecute travellers they were accused of being racist.

Then both he and you need to do some research on the kind of "special treatment" the guards like to give travellers. you might find the results surprising.

Travellers are Irish and even then I wasn't aware that "Irish" was a unique race. We don't speak French are we a different race to the French? A common history, what history, the history of living in caravans? Religion, the same religion as most people in this country. Are we all English? I won't say we are English, but I believe we are the same racially and so are travellers.

That is not what I asked, I asked what defines a race. Ireland is predominantly catholic, it doesnt make us italians though.

bagdaddy

mountainyman wrote:

That's right the police never hassle travellers. Oh wait they do but just the poor ones just like settled people.

Is it just another case of the rich man trying to keep the poor man down?? Btw it is a well proven fact that crime is higher among poorer parts.

Zombrex

DaveMcG wrote:

Oh give me a break, I would be more inclined to think that it's the majority that are criminal scumbags.

The majority of travellers or the majority of travellers you have actually meet?

billy the squid

The Clown Man wrote:

Apologies, I didnt read it properly. No wonder I was so bemused!

However, my point is that he has eleven children for a reason.

Oh, and wards eldest was 19 and youngest was 1 1/2.

Anyway, enough of this, I should have left work 5 mins ago.

If his oldest was 19 then he would not have been receiving child benefit for him.

as I said before, which i see you havent done yet, how much would a settled family with 11 kids get from child benefit, i would imagine the figure is the same, no more no less.

Zaph0d

The Clown Man wrote:

However, my point is that he has eleven children for a reason.

Which reason? money?

Zaph0d

The Clown Man wrote:

Oh, and wards eldest was 19 and youngest was 1 1/2.

What is your source for this?

The Irish Times reports that his youngest was 4 and eldest 22.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/1112/3091984021HM1NALLY.html

billy the squid

I would also like to add that traveller families have always been big. even before child benefit was introduced in ireland, so to claim that travellers have big families for the sole purpose of getting al that child benefit is inacurate. also children cost money. so you cant claim that a person in receipt of childrens allowance is keeping this money all for themselves and spending **** all on the child.

the heroin addict mentioned above might though.

Boggle

bonkey wrote:

It is also the case that many aspects of Traveller culture and society are beneficial to children’s wellbeing

The same could be said about any disadvantage... Something good always comes out of it regardless of how much damage it does to someone. This argument could be ridiculously extended to say that slavery wasn't all bad cos it promoted good cameradery among the slaves. (And I understand its a ridiculous statement but its just an exageration of what you chose to take out of the report)

Its also worth noting that this situation is where social services have been called because a child who is enrolled to attend a school is presenting problems and is reported by someone to Social Services.

Its also worth noting that this situation is where social services have been called because a child who is enrolled to attend a school is presenting problems and is reported by someone to Social Services.

Okay, your starting to lose me here... What about the huge amount that do enrole and then drop out (see previous link)? What about the kids you see running around during the day? Do the gardai not report them? If not then it is dicrimination on behalf of the gardai, if they do and nothing is done then it is discrimination on behalf of the social worker... either way my point is proven - that different standards are allowed to exist for different communities.

And in case you dont believe that you or I would be brought up on this:

"1. At a sifting of the District Court held at Listowel on the 23 July, 1997, the said Accused Christine Best was prosecuted as follows:- 'that between 7 December, 1995 and 27 June, 1997, at Stacksmountain, Kilflynn, Co Kerry, in the court area and district aforesaid, she the said defendant, being the parent of William Best and Niall Best, children, not less than six nor more than fourteen years of age, had failed to comply with a warning notice served on her on the 21 February, 1997, in accordance with the provisions of the School Attendance Act, 1926, as amended by the School Attendance (Amendment) Act, 1967, requiring her within one week after the service of such warning notice to cause said children to attend school or to give to the enforcing authority for the said area a reasonable excuse for not so doing, contrary to the provisions of the statute in that ease made and provided'.

bonkey wrote:

What would be a relevant question is are settled people allowed rear their kids in a similar way.

Actually I was thinking about this - what would be the comparable living conditions of a settled child to that of a traveller child? i.e. how badly delapidated/cleaned a home would it have to be to compare to a halting site on the side of the road?? - or how bad an environment would it have to be to equate it to the way those kids must feel when farmers scream at them to get their grubby caravans off his land??

billy the squid

The same could be said about any disadvantage... Something good always comes out of it regardless of how much damage it does to someone. This argument could be ridiculously extended to say that slavery wasn't all bad cos it promoted good cameradery among the slaves. (And I understand its a ridiculous statement but its just an exageration of what you chose to take out of the report)

Being a traveller though is different to the slavery issue in that Travellers remain travellers of their own free will, whereas slaves did not have a choice, they had slavery thrust upon them by people outside of their cultural and social group. i do agree though that your statement is rediculous.

can you tell me what discrimination of travellers when it comes to work and service in shops and the like has added to society? maybe it gave people something to moan about.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

It has everything to do with it, having nowhere to build a halting site means that no halting site gets built.

What has that got to do with them claiming that the police arresting them is racist? If I mess up my house should the government build me a new one?

billy the squid wrote:

Then you havent seen very many of them then have you

I have seen plenty of them.

billy the squid wrote:

Or you just didnt like what it said.

I doubt I would have liked what it said, but I didn't read it.

billy the squid wrote:

Then both he and you need to do some research on the kind of "special treatment" the guards like to give travellers. you might find the results surprising.

No I don't, whatever some guards think of travellers doesn't negate the fact that once a garda tries to deal with a traveller he is accused of racism/discrimination.

billy the squid wrote:

That is not what I asked, I asked what defines a race. Ireland is predominantly catholic, it doesnt make us italians though.

What? Where did I say it did. My whole point was that race is not something based on religion or any one of those reasons you originally listed. Can you tell me why travellers are a different race to the rest of Ireland?

Boggle

Being a traveller though is different to the slavery issue in that Travellers remain travellers of their own free will, whereas slaves did not have a choice, they had slavery thrust upon them by people outside of their cultural and social group. i do agree though that your statement is rediculous

And you must barely read before you start hitting the keyboard. Read it again and notice that I was not discussing choice - I was discussing whether the fact that they're a close knit family makes up for their poor standard of living, poor education and limited choices in life... Incidentally, I don't see a hell of a lot of career choices for an uneducated traveller - couldn't even get a job in Xtra Vision without Juniour Cert!!

bonkey

Boggle wrote:

Okay, your starting to lose me here... What about the huge amount that do enrole and then drop out (see previous link)?

The point I was making is that those quotes show that the case presented in the link you supplied is far from open and shut. It shows both sides of the coin, and generally seems to be more arguing about how to get correct the system so that travellers aren't disadvantaged thus giving them equal opportunity as the law demands. If anything, it supports the claim that they are discriminated against whilst recognising and encouraging the will to reftify this.

What about the kids you see running around during the day? Do the gardai not report them? If not then it is dicrimination on behalf of the gardai,

Only if they treat traveller's kids differently to those of non-travellers. Do they report all kids? I don't believe so.

[quote[Actually I was thinking about this - what would be the comparable living conditions of a settled child to that of a traveller child? i.e. how badly delapidated/cleaned a home would it have to be to compare to a halting site on the side of the road?? - or how bad an environment would it have to be to equate it to the way those kids must feel when farmers scream at them to get their grubby caravans off his land??[/QUOTE]

You seem to be taking my opposition to unsubstantiated claims of discrimination based on assumption rather than fact as approval of a lifestyle.

This thread is not about whether or not I approve of their lifestyle.

The reason I brought up the questions about your post, as I've already cleared up, was that you were making claims presented as fact, and I wanted to find out if they were, or if they were based on assumptions of the standard used as a baseline. At best, it is only tangentially relevant, in that it would suggest we might as whether or not we are any better in levelling unsubstianted claims of discriination ourselves.

Many people seem to be confusing discrimination and approval or something else. The child support issue raised seperately is a case in point. The large number of support received for a large number of children applies equally to travellers and non-travellers alike. Whether or not there are other payments which are discriminatory is a completely seperate point, and a valid one at that.....but why the focus on the big shock-value nondiscriminatory numbers, followed with an and they get this stuff too addendum???

If we cannot make such distinctions ourselves, what (moral) right do we have to insist that something be done about others who equally fail to live up to standards?

jc

All I see on this thread is anecdotal evidence. 'I saw a fight'...'they smashed a bar'...'they hit my friend'...'they broke into a house'...etc. etc. At the risk of repeating myself, I could tell the same stories, only substituting the word 'Corkonian' for 'traveller'. And yet some of my best friends are from Cork...

bonkey

Addendum:

Perhaps more importantly, if we can ensure there are fewer/no unsupportable (and thus arguably racially/culturally motivated) claims levelled against the travelling community, we can have faith that any false claims of discrimination levelled in return.

For this reason, even if your assumptions prove right, I would feel you would be better being able to support it more factually. And should they be incorrect, or unproveable and thus indeterminate....well....aren't you just adding fuel to the fire?

billy the squid

What? Where did I say it did. My whole point was that race is not something based on religion or any one of those reasons you originally listed. Can you tell me why travellers are a different race to the rest of Ireland?

to answer this one has to find out what defines an ethnic group
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&hs=wBR&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:ETHNIC+GROUP

Travellers do indeed have their own language (shelta)
They have a common history
They share the same religion

and I believe that you are basing your opinion that All halting sites are "filty" based on the few you claim to have seen. you have not seen ALL the halting sites in the country therefore you are not qualified to make such a claim.

Boggle wrote:

And you must barely read before you start hitting the keyboard. Read it again and notice that I was not discussing choice - I was discussing whether the fact that they're a close knit family makes up for their poor standard of living, poor education and limited choices in life... Incidentally, I don't see a hell of a lot of career choices for an uneducated traveller - couldn't even get a job in Xtra Vision without Juniour Cert!!

why would they want to work in Xtra-vision when they can brobably make more money in whatever business the family runs, whether it be horses, scrap or whatever.

I have also seen travellers with leaving Certs, turned away when looking for work.

mcgarnicle

mcgarnicle wrote:

No I don't, whatever some guards think of travellers doesn't negate the fact that once a garda tries to deal with a traveller he is accused of racism/discrimination.

A friend of mine, retired garda, took particular delight in turning over traveller's caravans and thrashing them. Even when they had done nothing, he just wanted to give them a little message about moving on. Fierce nice guy, just didn't like seeing our little town upset by their presence. Just constant thrashing, day after day, until they went...

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

to answer this one has to find out what defines an ethnic group
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&hs=wBR&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:ETHNIC+GROUP

Travellers do indeed have their own language (shelta)
They have a common history
They share the same religion

What history? Their common religion doesn't seperate them from the rest of the country since they have the same religion.

billy the squid wrote:

and I believe that you are basing your opinion that All halting sites are "filty" based on the few you claim to have seen. you have not seen ALL the halting sites in the country therefore you are not qualified to make such a claim.

That combined with what I have seen on tv, read in the paper, heard on the radio, been told by people I know. I have never come across a clean halting site in any of these. Maybe there are a few but it is obvious most are a disgrace.
Speaking of where we are basing our oppinions on, I read your link and was about to comment on it until I read it was by an Irish anarchist organisation, which says enough about it to be honest.