The Issue of Travellers.

mcgarnicle

Deleted User wrote:

A friend of mine, retired garda, took particular delight in turning over traveller's caravans and thrashing them. Even when they had done nothing, he just wanted to give them a little message about moving on. Fierce nice guy, just didn't like seeing our little town upset by their presence. Just constant thrashing, day after day, until they went...

Sounds like he should have been sacked. Again the fact that the odd garda doesn't like travellers doesn't take away from the fact that in general it is hard for the gardai to deal with them incase they end up being accused of being racist etc. Unless you want to generalise all Gardai as being out to get travellers?

billy the squid

mcgarnicle wrote:

What history? Their common religion doesn't seperate them from the rest of the country since they have the same religion.

Thus my bringing up the Italian people, they share the same religion as us. do you deny that they are a separate ethnic group, or that we are a separate ethnic group as them simply because we have the same religion.

That combined with what I have seen on tv, read in the paper, heard on the radio, been told by people I know.

this is the same TV Radio Newspapers, that portray Limerick City as a crime infested hellhole, the crime capital of Ireland right? you really shouldnt believe everything you see in the media.

I have never come across a clean halting site in any of these. Maybe there are a few but it is obvious most are a disgrace.

I have been to loads of halting sites, most of them were spotless.

Speaking of where we are basing our oppinions on, I read your link and was about to comment on it until I read it was by an Irish anarchist organisation, which says enough about it to be honest.

I've no personal allegience with anarchists, but what they do say on how travellers are treated in ireland happens to be true. its a pity you cannot debunk the message though, rather attack where it came from.

mcgarnicle

mcgarnicle wrote:

I have never come across a clean halting site in any of these. Maybe there are a few but it is obvious most are a disgrace.

Tbh, I wouldn't get too hung up on the cleanliness issue. After all, it was the card usually played about all of the Irish people in the 19th century. We were filthy little oiks, the 'pig in the parlour', and thus one step above savagery and incapable of controlling ourselves...pah...

billy the squid

mcgarnicle wrote:

Sounds like he should have been sacked. Again the fact that the odd garda doesn't like travellers doesn't take away from the fact that in general it is hard for the gardai to deal with them incase they end up being accused of being racist etc. Unless you want to generalise all Gardai as being out to get travellers?

A garda who puts the sqeeze on law abiding members of the travelling comunity will go un noticed, but if same police force were to harass a bunch of immigrants, there would be hell to pay.

the_syco

fonril wrote:

And I do have experience of travellers, as I live in an area that has an annual horse fair. For several years the travellers parked their caravans on the green in front of my parents house. For the most part there wasn't an iota of trouble and they left the place clean afterwards. I know that's not always the case but as I said, I judge people as individuals.

I agree with this. Travellers are usually nice people. Knackers, tho, are not. The difference between a knacker and a traveller, is that a traveller will travel, and leave no mess behind them (to the point of hiring out a skip), but a knacker will stay as long as they can, and leave a mess behind them.

=-=

I don't really care if someone is black. I call white people nigg*rs, in a "yo nigg*r, wots the craic?" fashion. And yes, I know that "knacker" is not nice, but tough sh|t. I'm not going to call them travellers, as the f*ckers don't travel. They stay in the one place, expect free parking, free water, and a free house. Also, they expect you to clean up their mess after them.

=-=

Oh, as for travellers families being big, its expected. Reasons: back in the 1900's, rural families were big, for a number of reasons, such as a high death rate of young children, and also so that the children could support the parents. There is little difference between our situation then, and the travellers situation now. I'd say about 50% of the kids die at a young age, and as you need (correct me if I'm wrong) an address to claim a pension (even a state paid one, I'd say), the travellers wouldn't be able to claim one, thus they need their children to keep them. Added to the that, some may not be an Irish resident, thus the Irish goverment wouldn't give them a state pension.

billy the squid wrote:

make more money in whatever business the family runs, whether it be horses, scrap

Aye. This scrap business is highly profitable. The only pity is that the county council has to clean it up, once the knackers leave.

Zaph0d

mcgarnicle wrote:

What history? Their common religion doesn't seperate them from the rest of the country since they have the same religion.

The legal definition of an ethnic group was established in UK law in 1983 (Mandla Vs Lee) http://www.hrcr.org/safrica/equality/Mandla_DowellLee.htm)
as follows:

For a group to constitute an 'ethnic group' for the purposes of the 1976 Act it had to regard itself, and be regarded by others, as a distinct community by virtue of certain characteristics, two of which were essential. First it had to have a long shared history, of which the group was conscious as distinguishing it from other groups, and the memory of which it kept alive, and second it had to have a cultural tradition of its own, including family and social customs and manners, often but not necessarily associated with religious observance. In addition, the following characteristics could also be relevant, namely (a) either a common geographical origin or descent from a small number of common ancestors, (b) a common language, which did not necessarily have to be peculiar to the group, (c) a common literature peculiar to the group, (d) a common religion different from that of neighbouring groups or from the general community surrounding it, and (e) the characteristic of being a minority orbeing an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community.

Also see this post for more discussion of what constitutes an ethnic group:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1978436&postcount=23

It would be very difficult to argue that travellers do not form an ethnic group give the weight of legal and academic evidence. Despite this, the charge is frequently levelled at them that they do not form an ethinc group and are merely people living in caravans.

the_syco

On the matter of filthy halting sites, its like bad news. It travels fast. You never hear about a clean one, because no-one complains about it. You only complain about the dirty ones, thus the clean ones never get mentioned, thus you'd think they don't exist.

Yet they do. And as long as they can stay there, the halting site usually gets a community spirit, and after awhile, it looks like a holiday park, as its so clean, and looked after.

But if you put two feuding families into the same site, or there isn't that much room there, but they decide to cram as much into it, your not going to get a nice place to live.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

Thus my bringing up the Italian people, they share the same religion as us. do you deny that they are a separate ethnic group, or that we are a separate ethnic group as them simply because we have the same religion.

Do I deny the Italians are a different race to the Irish? Yes. You still haven't shown why travellers are a different race to the other Irish, even if I accepted that Italians were another race that still does not prove that travellers are.

billy the squid wrote:

this is the same TV Radio Newspapers, that portray Limerick City as a crime infested hellhole, the crime capital of Ireland right? you really shouldnt believe everything you see in the media.
I have been to loads of halting sites, most of them were spotless.

Well if you can use some anarchist organisation to back up your points then I think I am perfectly justified in using the national media to back mine up.

billy the squid wrote:

I've no personal allegience with anarchists, but what they do say on how travellers are treated in ireland happens to be true. its a pity you cannot debunk the message though, rather attack where it came from.

It is true yes, but I read nothing in that article that the travellers could not solve by getting an education and sorting themselves out.

mcgarnicle

Zaph0d wrote:

The legal definition of an ethnic group was established in UK law in 1983 (Mandla Vs Lee) http://www.hrcr.org/safrica/equality/Mandla_DowellLee.htm)
as follows:



Also see this post for more discussion of what constitutes an ethnic group:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1978436&postcount=23

It would be very difficult to argue that travellers do not form an ethnic group give the weight of legal and academic evidence. Despite this, the charge is frequently levelled at them that they do not form an ethinc group and are merely people living in caravans.

I think it is pretty easy to argue they don't. Going by the reasons you have listed somebody in the Gaeltacht would have a far more valid case for depicting themselves as a separate race than travellers.
If they stopped living in caravans would they still be a separate race?

Jackz

Did anybody see the special last night about Padraig Nally / John Ward. There was mention of 8 cases of elderly people murdered in their homes and in the 5 cases that were prosecuted the offenders were member of the traveling community is this correct just recalling from memory here.

Zaph0d

mcgarnicle wrote:

If they stopped living in caravans would they still be a separate race?

I said ethnic group, not race.

Travellers have a separate nomadic culture and customs, a shared ancestry, are intermarried around the country, have their own language, identify themsleves as being different from the mainstream Irish culture, and can be identified as different by the mainstream. They are quite simply distinct from the rest of us. You don't need to see a caravan to know that someone is a traveller. They have what the judge called "the characteristic of being a minority or being an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community. ".

Being a traveller is not a lifestyle choice, it is something you are born into. A traveller can't stop being a traveller by living in a house but if he stops being nomadic and intermarries and abandons his former culture and sends his kids to college, his children will be less likely to identify themselves as travellers and to be identified in this way by others.

Travellers also identify themselves as Irish and we have the choice of accepting or denying their existence. Are we going to continue to promote myths that lead to the conclusion that ethnic cleansing is the best way forward? It's amazing how many of my neighbours have bad stories about travellers that happened to other people but never to them. They seem to spend half their time up at the church so God knows what they learn about Christiantity up there.

After some burglaries in my area turned out to have been committed by the adoptive son of one of the locals, a story went out amonst the neighbours that he had some traveller blood, thus explaining his thieving ways. A dip of the tarbrush. I can't see much difference between this sort of attitude and white supremacism.

mcgarnicle

Zaph0d wrote:

I said ethnic group, not race.

ethnic group: people of the same race or nationality who share a distinctive culture
So by saying they are an ethnic group you are saying they are either a distinctive race or are from a different country.

Zaph0d wrote:

Travellers have a separate nomadic culture and customs, a shared ancestry, are intermarried around the country, have their own language, identify themsleves as being different from the mainstream Irish culture, and can be identified as different by the mainstream. They are quite simply distinct from the rest of us. You don't need to see a caravan to know that someone is a traveller. They have what the judge called "the characteristic of being a minority or being an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community. ".

One British judge's oppinion does not mean alot to me. If i saw a traveller I would not know by looking at him, the accent would give it a way but they are not "quite simply distinct from the rest of us".

Zaph0d wrote:

Being a traveller is not a lifestyle choice, it is something you are born into. A traveller can't stop being a traveller by living in a house but if he stops being nomadic and intermarries and abandons his former culture and sends his kids to college, his children will be less likely to identify themselves as travellers and to be identified in this way by others.

Basically if he stops living in a caravan and gets an education for his kids, which is why i came into this this discussion in the first place.

Zaph0d wrote:

Travellers also identify themselves as Irish and we have the choice of accepting or denying their existence. Are we going to continue to promote myths that lead to the conclusion that ethnic cleansing is the best way forward? It's amazing how many of my neighbours have bad stories about travellers that happened to other people but never to them. They seem to spend half their time up at the church so God knows what they learn about Christiantity up there.

I would imagine that emphasising the differences among people is more likely to lead to this. I don't care what your neighbours think by the way, that has nothing to do with my own views. There are few things that people talk about in the politics board that we actually know about first hand. I would say the issue of travellers would be one which most people here have at least some experience with.

Zaph0d wrote:

After some burglaries in my area turned out to have been committed by the adoptive son of one of the locals, a story went out amonst the neighbours that he had some traveller blood, thus explaining his thieving ways. A dip of the tarbrush. I can't see much difference between this sort of attitude and white supremacism.

Then you are pretty short sighted, but then again your ethnic cleansing statement already showed that.

Zaph0d

mcgarnicle wrote:

ethnic group: people of the same race or nationality who share a distinctive culture
So by saying they are an ethnic group you are saying they are either a distinctive race or are from a different country.

I don't know how you deduce that. The race and nationality of an ethnic group can be the same as anyone else's race or country. Their culture is distinct.

Basically if he stops living in a caravan and gets an education for his kids, which is why i came into this this discussion in the first place.

That's not what I said. I said that the combination of marrying outside his group, loss of culture and mainstream education could make the children less likely to identify as a member of an ethnic group. Race and ethnic group are spectrum categories rather than distinct boxes.

I would imagine that emphasising the differences among people is more likely to lead to this [hatred of travellers by settled people].

I think that a recognition of the different cultures rather than a denial of their existence would be a first step towards better relations.

mcgarnicle

Zaph0d wrote:

I don't know how you deduce that. The race and nationality of an ethnic group can be the same as anyone else's race or country. Their culture is distinct.

No it can't. Look up the definition of ethnic group for yourself.

Zaph0d wrote:

That's not what I said. I said that the combination of marrying outside his group, loss of culture and mainstream education could make the children less likely to identify as a member of an ethnic group. Race and ethnic group are spectrum categories rather than distinct boxes.

Can someone outline some of this unique traveller culture? All children in Ireland should be in the education system. As that anarchist article that was posted earlier outlines many of the travellers' problems are directly related to the large levels of illiteracy.

Zaph0d wrote:

Travellers have a separate nomadic culture and customs, a shared ancestry, are intermarried around the country, have their own language, identify themsleves as being different from the mainstream Irish culture, and can be identified as different by the mainstream. They are quite simply distinct from the rest of us. You don't need to see a caravan to know that someone is a traveller. They have what the judge called "the characteristic of being a minority or being an oppressed or a dominant group within a larger community.

Farmers have a seperate agricultural culture and customs, a shared ancestry, are intermarried around the country, identify themselves as different and can be identied as different. They are quite simply distinct to the rest of us. You don't need to see a tractor to know that someone is a farmer. They have what I called "the characteristic of being a minority". Anyway my point is that if you try hard enough you can class anyone as an "ethnic group" as you would define it.

Zaph0d wrote:

I think that a recognition of the different cultures rather than a denial of their existence would be a first step towards better relations.

Better relations is one thing, implying that the current situation verges on ethnic cleansing and white supremecy is idiotic.

murphaph

Zaph0d wrote:

You don't need to see a caravan to know that someone is a traveller.

Oftentimes you don't need to see the traveller

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

pete

Zaph0d wrote:

The race and nationality of an ethnic group can be the same as anyone else's race or country. Their culture is distinct.

mcgarnicle wrote:

No it can't. Look up the definition of ethnic group for yourself.

Did you?

http://www.google.ie/search?q=define%3Aethnicity

mcgarnicle

pete wrote:

Did you?

http://www.google.ie/search?q=define%3Aethnicity

Yes I did and I posted it earlier.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic%20group

pete

mcgarnicle wrote:

Yes I did and I posted it earlier.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic%20group

Oh great! a dic(k)tionary measuring contest!

Mine's bigger than yours. My list of definitions, that is.

mcgarnicle

pete wrote:

Oh great! a dic(k)tionary measuring contest!

Mine's bigger than yours. My list of definitions, that is.

Eh?

dawballz

Deleted User wrote:

All I see on this thread is anecdotal evidence. 'I saw a fight'...'they smashed a bar'...'they hit my friend'...'they broke into a house'...etc. etc. At the risk of repeating myself, I could tell the same stories, only substituting the word 'Corkonian' for 'traveller'. And yet some of my best friends are from Cork...

That's the difference.
You happen to know some reasonable people from Cork.
Most people here know of very few(none) friendly travellers.

pete

dawballz wrote:

That's the difference.
You happen to know some reasonable people from Cork.
Most people here know of very few(none) friendly travellers.

i've met plenty of friendly travellers, nearly all at 11.30am on thursday mornings over the course of 4 years in the early 90's when i worked in a social welfare office.

back then it was considered perfectly reasonable to force every single unemployed traveller to sign on at the same time on the same day all over the country.

billy the squid

back then it was considered perfectly reasonable to force every single unemployed traveller to sign on at the same time on the same day all over the country.

This process is mentioned in the so called "anarchists" article I linked to earlier today, and now that it comes from a former employee of the Department of social Welfare, reaffirms that the claim is actually true.

I would like to ask how illiteracy amongst travellers is responsible for segregation of tavellers like what is mentioned in the above quote.

also mcgarnicle how is traveller illiteracy responsible for where the government decides to put halting sites, near rivers and railway lines. I find it hard to believe that the halting sites would be any better if the figures for literacy in the travelling community were higher?

billy the squid

mcgarnicle wrote:

Do I deny the Italians are a different race to the Irish? Yes. You still haven't shown why travellers are a different race to the other Irish, even if I accepted that Italians were another race that still does not prove that travellers are.

Indeed I have, complete with independent defanitions linked in one of my posts above, not only that but another user has also done it for you. It is up to you to go and read it.

Well if you can use some anarchist organisation to back up your points then I think I am perfectly justified in using the national media to back mine up.

The difference being that the article linked by me in that post contained statements which happen to be true, this is not always the case with a media which likes to sensationalise the littlest thing to get more views/listeners/readers.

It is true yes, but I read nothing in that article that the travellers could not solve by getting an education and sorting themselves out.

asked and answered earlier. Increasing education amongst travellers will not reduse victimisation by both Gardai and local people.

Educating travellers will not reduce the level of segregation decribed by pete above in his post, a point which was stated in the article you are attacking.

Educating travellers will not encourage the government to build halting sites away from dangers like rivers and railway lines as described in the article to which I linked.

now can you tell me again, how will educating travellers alleviate these points above.

billy the squid

Farmers have a seperate agricultural culture and customs, a shared ancestry, are intermarried around the country, identify themselves as different and can be identied as different. They are quite simply distinct to the rest of us. You don't need to see a tractor to know that someone is a farmer. They have what I called "the characteristic of being a minority". Anyway my point is that if you try hard enough you can class anyone as an "ethnic group" as you would define it.

not necessarily, Farming is a profession. A farmer's son can go to the "Big Smoke" and work in a hotel, then he is not a farmer anymore. whereas a travellers son can go to the "big smoke" and still be recognised as a traveller, whether it be because of his accent or whatever. as much as being a fisherman is a profession, or a doctor. your job does not identify you as an ethnic group.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

This process is mentioned in the so called "anarchists" article I linked to earlier today, and now that it comes from a former employee of the Department of social Welfare, reaffirms that the claim is actually true.

So called anarchists? Yes so called by the website the article was on. How else could travellers collect their dole. Settled people have to get their dole at specific post offices etc and it cannot be collected by another person or at another post office. I think that the reason travellers have to get it on that day and at that time is more to do with the bureaucracy of having to deal with a population with no fixed addresses thereby making the usual system inapplicable. Like the rest of the article you have mentioned again it takes an aspect of truth and puts its own spin on it to make it look like the travellers are being hard done by.

billy the squid wrote:

I would like to ask how illiteracy amongst travellers is responsible for segregation of tavellers like what is mentioned in the above quote.

Maybe because if they werent illiterate they could get jobs.

billy the squid wrote:

also mcgarnicle how is traveller illiteracy responsible for where the government decides to put halting sites, near rivers and railway lines. I find it hard to believe that the halting sites would be any better if the figures for literacy in the travelling community were higher?

If this is the case (which I am not convinced it is) then obviously a halting site for a group of people who contribute nothing to the country will be on the cheapest, most useless land available and rightly so. Again the reason is that if they could read they could get jobs and they could afford their own piece of decent land (which they probably can anyway) just like the settled community has to.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

Indeed I have, complete with independent defanitions linked in one of my posts above, not only that but another user has also done it for you. It is up to you to go and read it.

No you haven't. You have given me a link to alot of ambiguous deffinitions many of which do not match up. The factors of most of them are also open for debate as to how they apply to travellers. For example the very first deffinition in your link lists the factors for an ethnic group as religion, colour and national origin, travellers are distinct in none of these factors when compared to the rest of Ireland.

billy the squid wrote:

The difference being that the article linked by me in that post contained statements which happen to be true, this is not always the case with a media which likes to sensationalise the littlest thing to get more views/listeners/readers.

Ok, the anarchists are telling the truth but the national media is lying, do you have a tin foil hat there? As I have said earlier the anarchist article has statistics etc that are true such as high mortality rates among travellers, but it spins them to make out that it is a result of racism rather than the fact that travellers lead rather unhealthy lives.

billy the squid wrote:

asked and answered earlier. Increasing education amongst travellers will not reduse victimisation by both Gardai and local people.

How do you know this? Maybe if general people had more experiences with well educated, polite travellers rather than those typically encountered peoples' oppinions would change. Although I don't believe that all gardai and all local people are victimising travellers. As I said earlier about the garda who was terrorising travellers, he should be sacked. But the fact is that legitimate gardai are accused of racism when they attempt to deal with travellers.

billy the squid wrote:

Educating travellers will not reduce the level of segregation decribed by pete above in his post, a point which was stated in the article you are attacking.

Again if they were educated there is good chance they would have nothing to do with Pete as then they would not need to be on the dole.

billy the squid wrote:

Educating travellers will not encourage the government to build halting sites away from dangers like rivers and railway lines as described in the article to which I linked.
now can you tell me again, how will educating travellers alleviate these points above.

Again if they were educated they could buy their own land. Why should the government pay for sites that are often neglected and even destroyed, as one poster mentioned earlier.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

not necessarily, Farming is a profession. A farmer's son can go to the "Big Smoke" and work in a hotel, then he is not a farmer anymore. whereas a travellers son can go to the "big smoke" and still be recognised as a traveller, whether it be because of his accent or whatever. as much as being a fisherman is a profession, or a doctor. your job does not identify you as an ethnic group.

If he is still a traveller, then yes. If however he gets well educated and a good job then nobody would know he was the son of a traveller. I chose farmer in particular because it is a way of life, not a profession as such.

billy the squid

So called anarchists? Yes so called by the website the article was on. How else could travellers collect their dole. Settled people have to get their dole at specific post offices etc and it cannot be collected by another person or at another post office. I think that the reason travellers have to get it on that day and at that time is more to do with the bureaucracy of having to deal with a population with no fixed addresses thereby making the usual system inapplicable. Like the rest of the article you have mentioned again it takes an aspect of truth and puts its own spin on it to make it look like the travellers are being hard done by.

The fact that everyone in the country has a PPS number which can be used to keep track of a persons social welfare entitlements makes the above redundant.

Maybe because if they werent illiterate they could get jobs.

the number of travellers who are illiterate does not decide where a local council builds a halting site. also there are a majority of travellers who are indeed working. but I am guessing that you have posted somewhere in this post that travellers, all travellers are useless layabouts or something like that.

No you haven't. You have given me a link to alot of ambiguous deffinitions

I didnt realise the UN was too ambiguous for you.

Ok, the anarchists are true but the national media is lying, do you have a tin foil hat there?

No, and even if I did, a recent MIT study proved that tin foil hats caused more harm than good, so even if I did have one it would be of little use to me.
http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/
now if you don't mind, please stick to the topic at hand rather than throwing insults about.

As I have said earlier the anarchist article has statistics etc that are true such as high mortality rates among travellers, but it spins them to make out that it is a result of racism rather than the fact that travellers lead rather unhealthy lives.

but you ignore the poor quality locations of the halting sites being provided by the government. even your average settled and unemployed loan-parent gets to choose where she can live when filling out her form down at the town hall.

How do you know this? Maybe if general people had more experiences with well educated, polite travellers rather than those typically encountered peoples' oppinions would change. Although I don't believe that all gardai and all local people are victimising travellers. As I said earlier about the garda who was terrorising travellers, he should be sacked. But the fact is that legitimate gardai are accused of racism when they attempt to deal with travellers.

and how do you know that in the one case quoted by the OP, the guards in question were not acting in a way that could be perceived as racism. were you there?

Again if they were educated there is good chance they would have nothing to do with Pete as then they would not need to be on the dole.

Again I will say this as no one seems to be paying attention to it. It is impossible to come off welfare if no one will give you a start in a job because your a traveller. There are many, many travellers who have leaving certificates, one or two I know that are working on going to college, but once an employer hears the accent on an interview, the chance of that person getting a start goes out the window.

If he is still a traveller, then yes. If however he gets well educated and a good job then nobody would know he was the son of a traveller. I chose farmer in particular because it is a way of life, not a profession as such

does he stop being a traveller after getting a leaving cert and a job. he might want to remain a traveller, and observe traveller customs and rites even afterwards. If a farmer leaves his farm to work in a city he stops being a farmer. There are travellers who live for years in the one place, get their children educated in local schools, work in local businesses that are willing to hire them, yet they still consider themselves travellers. but this is only possible if local settled people leave them alone.

and why should a person hide the fact that they are a traveller once they get education and employment.

mcgarnicle

billy the squid wrote:

The fact that everyone in the country has a PPS number which can be used to keep track of a persons social welfare entitlements makes the above redundant.

I could be wrong but as far as I know you have to go to your local post office to collect it. The PPS number was introduced in 1998, not the early 90s as Pete said. It may be redundant now (can you prove this) but was it reduntant in the early 90s?

billy the squid wrote:

the number of travellers who are illiterate does not decide where a local council builds a halting site. also there are a majority of travellers who are indeed working. but I am guessing that you have posted somewhere in this post that travellers, all travellers are useless layabouts or something like that.

How do you know that most travellers work, surely working in a steady job implies you too must be settled. No I never made such comments, I have in fact argued that travellers are no different to anyone else in this country and that it is their insistence on keeping their children out of education that is holding them back.

billy the squid wrote:

I didnt realise the UN was too ambiguous for you.

There was no UN link on that page.

billy the squid wrote:

No, and even if I did, a recent MIT study proved that tin foil hats caused more harm than good, so even if I did have one it would be of little use to me.
http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/
now if you don't mind, please stick to the topic at hand rather than throwing insults about.

If you believe an anarchist newletter over the rest of the media in Ireland then the comment was warranted. Maybe THEY just want you to think that the tin-foil hats are useless so that you take them off? I would leave it on to be safe.

billy the squid wrote:

but you ignore the poor quality locations of the halting sites being provided by the government. even your average settled and unemployed loan-parent gets to choose where she can live when filling out her form down at the town hall.

I didn't ignore it I pointed out why it was justifiable to put the halting sites in rubbish locations.

billy the squid wrote:

and how do you know that in the one case quoted by the OP, the guards in question were not acting in a way that could be perceived as racism. were you there?

I don't but I'm guessing that that case, combined with the dozens of others that are always in the news means that there is a fair bit of truth to the statement.

billy the squid wrote:

Again I will say this as no one seems to be paying attention to it. It is impossible to come off welfare if no one will give you a start in a job because your a traveller. There are many, many travellers who have leaving certificates, one or two I know that are working on going to college, but once an employer hears the accent on an interview, the chance of that person getting a start goes out the window.

According to the article you posted there are 6 or 7 who made it to third level, while 15% make it to second level, it doesn't say how many finish second level but I doubt it is "many, many".

billy the squid wrote:

does he stop being a traveller after getting a leaving cert and a job. he might want to remain a traveller, and observe traveller customs and rites even afterwards. If a farmer leaves his farm to work in a city he stops being a farmer. There are travellers who live for years in the one place, get their children educated in local schools, work in local businesses that are willing to hire them, yet they still consider themselves travellers. but this is only possible if local settled people leave them alone.

and why should a person hide the fact that they are a traveller once they get education and employment.

My point was that he can stop being a traveller, meaning that travellers are not a race. Although somewhere the argument for travellers being a race changed to them being an ethnic group, they are neither. If he goes for a job in the city and settles, then he is not a traveller anymore. You cannot change your race, I can't stop being white, a black guy can't stop being black (with one exception) but a traveller can stop being a traveller.
If a traveller gets a job and all the rest, yes he is still a traveller if he choses. But then he can buy his own halting site and not bother anyone.
Again I'm asking here again, can someone show me some of this traveller culture?