Why do women have to wear Burkas?

farrahk52

Sorry, i was doing a zillion things when i wrote that i meant Alcoholism is the only disease...amended the post. Plus i cant be asked to explain the problems of society to a 37 yr old man who seems to be somewhat oblivious to whats going on in society and prefers to bury his head in the sand. You might become wiser when your 87 and some kids beat the crap out of you because they were bored.

Iran might have a heroin problem but they dont have single parent families, rapidly soaring STD's , binge drinking and widespread anti-social behaviour. We have a drug problem here in the UK, all societies have issues some more than others but spending in excess of £300 million on getting people to stop spreading STD's is a joke. And thats just STD's, God knows how much we're spending on alcolholics groups, binge drinking, drink driving, rehabs and ASBO's.

The country which comes out on top - that is, the country with the best child well-being - is the Netherlands, a secular country where alcohol is as freely available as in the UK, which has also legalised cannibis and prostitution, which has a low age of consent, and which has sex education.

I dont think any responsible parent or any caring parent would want their child to sleep with a prostitute (or bring one home or have their daughter turn out to be one (unless you would?). In islam you have to treat other women like you would want your own mothers, sisters and daughters to be treated, ie with respect. Prostitutes are someones daughters, sisters and probably mothers aswell. And i dont know many responsible parents who would want their children to smoke cannibis - we have studies that show how it can cause mental illness after years of abuse.

Is he then to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring so that he looks upon it as good (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. 35:8

Just carry on BUILDING MORE PRISONS in this country BECAUSE YOUR GOING TO NEED THEM..Or perhaps you could let DANGEROUS criminals out on the street early..oh i forgot we already do that, dont we?

oceanclub

farrahk52 wrote: »

Iran might have a heroin problem but they dont have single parent families, rapidly soaring STD's , binge drinking and widespread anti-social behaviour.

Sounds a great place; why aren't people emigrating in droves there?

There are nearly a million Muslims in the Netherlands - how come, if it's so terrible?

P.

Caverna

Islam states that when a a Muslim girl reaches puberty, she SHOULD begin wearing the hijab.

The key word here is 'should'.
No woman can be forced to wear it, within Islam.
Within Islam, the woman has the choice to wear it or not.
She must also only do so when she is fully prepared and not one single Muslim should ever attempt to influence or coax her into it.

Personally, I am not Muslim but I have enormous respect for true Muslims and Islam.

Any woman forced to wear the hijab is done so through ignorance of Islam and this is a reflection of more the culture within which she is confined as opposed to her religion forcing her to wear it.

the_syco

My take on it: it's a good idea in the sandy places, and lots of Islamic people were living in sandy places at the time the Burka law was made.

=-=

Also, many Islam women see having to wear the Burka as "freedom" from having to dress a certain way. F**ked up, but some of them see it as freedom, so meh, I leave them be.

=-=

farrahk52: You can get cancer from eating spuds.

farrahk52 wrote: »

if that makes me happy i couldnt care less what you or anyone else thinks.

Your tendency to care if we believe in your god leads me to believe otherwise.

farrahk52 wrote: »

certain people with a certain predisposition cannot handle them and take to the bottle. When people drink they do stupid things

Some take up a new religion when they can no longer "handle" their life, and find it easier to live their lives by a pre-defined set of rules. Islam, apart from the non-eating of pigs, is an easy-going religion (before anyone says anything, Christian religion is fairly odd, if you go by the book, but as we stopped doing so, it's no longer as weird).

farrahk52 wrote: »

Why are we spending £130 million on something like this if there wasnt a problem?

In the free world, people are free to make the choice themselves. The problem was always there, but the government is only trying to fix it now. Look back 40 years, in rural Ireland, and you may think that there was a huge upsurge of suicides amongst young males since then, but if you looked into the deaths back then, you'll see that the deaths of young males then and the suicides now are caused by the same means, just worded differently. Just because the government is saying that they see a problem now, doesn't mean the problem wasn't there before. Also worth noting: 20 years ago, I doubt a 14 year old would be get to a STD check as they would now.

farrahk52 wrote: »

Well i was taking about the whole thread not just you. ALL of us are tarring these women with the same brush

Don't tar all of us "non-believers" with the same brush.

the_new_mr

Hi Caverna. Good to see a non-Muslim has taken the time to educate themselves on what Islam is really about.

Haven't read all the other posts there but moosejam:
Another post like that and you're getting a 3 month ban. I don't know why you're so intent on offending and causing trouble. Some people's want for aggression is simply beyond me.

Jannah

You know why people are getting agressive? It's a mixture of ignorance (it must be said) but also of complete fear of people with a similar extremist mindset to Farrah, who herself blatently says that she tried to find a middle road and couldn't. She flips from one extreme to the other and this is difficult for people to comprehend as extremists in ANY religion almost always leads to hatred and bloodshed.

Extreme is always bad, Farrah, and until you can find that middle ground where you're not being so condescending to non-believers, you will never find any respect because you don't respect us. You come up with ridiculious statistics and claim that streets are 'unsafe' and ramble about how immoral women today are- there is a good in between between being the town bike and being a complete recluse that shrouds herself from head to toe and lectures us about what filthy fornicators we are.

MooseJam

the_new_mr wrote: »

Hi Caverna. Good to see a non-Muslim has taken the time to educate themselves on what Islam is really about.

Haven't read all the other posts there but moosejam:
Another post like that and you're getting a 3 month ban. I don't know why you're so intent on offending and causing trouble. Some people's want for aggression is simply beyond me.

I'm not intent on offending and causing trouble, I'm just stating facts, are you trying to tell me woman getting beaten for not covering up isn't an issue - try a google search of 'woman beaten for not covering up'

here you go http://www.google.ie/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=woman+beaten+for+not+covering+up&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

the_new_mr

Thanks for the link but, the question is, are you suggesting that this is the Islamic way or just something that's carried out by Muslims not following their faith properly?

Perhaps you could also try a google search for "rape in irish society"? Here you go:
http://www.google.com.eg/search?hl=en&q=rape+in+irish+society&btnG=Search&meta=

WOW! Look at how many links I got!! I guess that means that all Irish men rape women and that they're all following Irish tradition passed on from generation to generation.[/sarcasm]

I'm astounded at you as you either:
a) are gullible enough to be believe that beating up a woman is okay in Islam despite everything that's been written in this thread
b) know full well that it's not part of Islam but are gullible enough to believe that you can fool the intelligent people here into thinking that it is

We've said before on this thread that there are some cases where women are forced to wear hijab but that this is not Islamic practice.

Caverna

Moosejam,

I say this with respect but it is clear that you are very ignorant on the subject. Thats not an insult though, if you know what I mean. Myself also, I'm equally ignorant on other subjects and perhaps more subjects than you.

I do however feel compelled to force you to consider your perceptions of Islam. It appears as though you are unable to distinguish between the person and the religion.

Islam does NOT permit beating of women.
Islam does NOT permit beating of women if they choose to not wear the veil.
Islam does NOT permit women to be forced into wearing the veil.

It's quite simple.

I assume these women would love to cast off their veil....http://www.flickr.com/photos/23035666@N02/2214329861/

If you attempt to respond to my post with an arguement, stop yourself for a second and just ask yourself: Why are you so resistant to Islam not being what you perceived it to be? Why are you arguing agaisnt it?

What are you afraid of?

You need to differentiate between the person, the culture and Islam.

To be honest I'm going to make a bold statement here and say that you really do not know alot about Islam. I don't know everything but Islam I know extremely well. I have no agenda to promote Islam and I have no predeliction towards Muslims, nor do I have anything to gain from posting this.

Well in fact I do have something to gain, I hope that you alter your extreme opinion of some people living within an Islamic country who might not even be that Muslim.

Consider Ireland in the 1950's and 1960's.
Ireland was considered 100% Catholic and very religious but there was incredibly immoral stuff occuring at the time that would prompt any outside observer to comment on how un-Catholic the Catholics are.
The book, An Triail by Mairead Ni Ghrada illustrates this perfectly.

There are approx 1.5 Billion Muslims living together with everybody else on this planet we know as home.

To suggest that most of these Muslim women cover their hair due to fear of receiving a beating is a grossly distorted view of Islam and the world around you.

It's a frightening prospect if you truely believe this.

MooseJam

Caverna wrote: »

I assume these women would love to cast off their veil....http://www.flickr.com/photos/23035666@N02/2214329861/

interesting read, a lot of it is about Aqsa Parvez, murdered by her father for not wearing hijab, here is a quote from the Muslim woman who wrote the article -

"In Iran, I would be forced to wear hijab. In Afghanistan, I would have been hidden behind a chador with a mesh screen common in that region and in Pakistan"

oceanclub

Caverna wrote: »

Moosejam,
Islam does NOT permit beating of women.

Yusuf al-Qaradawi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_al-Qaradawi) is the head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council_for_Fatwa_and_Research) which is based at Clonskeagh mosque.

He has defended wife-beating on his web site:

'if the husband senses that feelings of disobedience and rebelliousness are rising against him in his wife, he should try his best to rectify her attitude by kind words, gentle persuasion, and reasoning with her... If this approach fails, it is permissible for him to admonish her lightly with his hands, avoiding her face and other sensitive areas.'

(http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543230)

If the head of the European Council for Fatwa and Research is being unIslamic, why is he still head of it? Why has noone in the Muslim community condemned him for these words? Why is he still lauded at the national mosque?

P.

Caverna

Moosejam.

Thats more than likely true for most parts of Iran and Afghanistan.
The point is however is that is not Islam. Thats the Iranian and Afghan authorities who impose these strict rules upon women.


oceanclub.

Islam does not permit wife beating. It's that simple.

hivizman

Caverna wrote: »

Islam does not permit wife beating. It's that simple.

I wish it were that simple, but there's a verse in the Qur'an that's usually quoted as authority for the husband's right to beat his wife. It's Surah Al-Nisa 4:34:

(Husbands) are the protectors and maintainers of their (wives) because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) spank them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

This is from the Abdullah Yusuf Ali version, 1999 edition. The original edition has "beat them (lightly)", while Pickthall's translation has "scourge them", Shakir has "beat them", as does Asad, and Abdul Haleem has "hit them", with a footnote pointing out "this signifies a single blow". It's quite obvious that this verse is a major embarrassment to modern liberal scholars (see for example here).

However, there is a new translation of the meaning of the Qur'an by an American scholar Laleh Bakhtiar, which caused some controversy by translating the words in verse 4:34 as "go away from them" rather than "beat them". If this understanding of the meaning of the verse catches on, then perhaps your comment that Islam does not permit wife beating will be "that simple".

oceanclub

Caverna wrote: »

Islam does not permit wife beating. It's that simple.

Obviously it's not "that simple" if the nearest that Ireland has to a head Islamic leader advocates it. I presume you condemn his opinions?

I mentioned him and his opinions before on this group:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55687996

The silence was deafening.

P.

farrahk52

The quran does allow disciplining wives, and where it says to beat them lightly it means with miswaks (small toothbrush from a tree) you have to look at the hadiths, how harmful could a toothbrush be? not harmful at all. Its just a symbolic statement, i did have an issue with this at first but i know through seeing other people go through domestic violence (inlcuding my non muslim xtian freinds) that men generally have more anger than women and resort to physical methods quite often (call it testeterone or whatever) the stats show that women get beaten all the time :-

http://www.womens-aid.org.uk/statistics.php


Ireland

• The refuge in Ballymena has accomodated 324 women and 407 children since opening in November 1998
  
• 29% of murders in Northern Ireland involved domestic situations (PSNI) Statistics).
  A national survey in the Republic of Ireland found that 59% of women surveyed know a woman whose partner used violence against her.).
  
• One women is seriously assaulted (ABH, GBH, attempted murder) by her male partner every day in Northern Ireland (PSNI) Statistics).
  
• Since 1978 over 30,000 women and children have been accommodated in Women's Aid refuges in Northern Ireland (NIWAF Statistics).
  
• Women's Aid have provided information, support and advice to over 90,000 people since 1978 (NIWAF Statistics).
  

General

• Almost half (44%) of all incidents reported by women to the British Crime Survey were domestic violence incidents. (British Crime Survey 1996, Home Office).
  
• Since 1981, the largest increase in violent crimes has been in incidents of domestic violence (British Crime Survey 1996, Home Office).
  
• A number of local surveys in the UK show between 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 women report having suffered domestic violence at some time in their adult lives. ).
  
• Similar findings are reported from research overseas. For example the largest recent survey of violence against women involved a telephone survey of over 11,000 women in Canada. One in three reported violence from their partners (Statistics Canada (1996) Survey on Violence Against Women in Canada).

So on the back of men cant control themselves (which is evident from the stats) if i was ever beaten, id rather be beaten by a toothbrush lightly than by a fist in the face, abit of light spanking never did anyone harm, lets not take it out of context!.

oceanclub

farrahk52 wrote: »

i know through seeing other people go through domestic violence (inlcuding my non muslim xtian freinds) that men generally have more anger than women and resort to physical methods quite often (call it testeterone or whatever) so if i was ever beaten, id rather be beaten by a toothbrush lightly than by a fist in the face, abit of light spanking never did anyone harm, lets not take it out of context!.

A variation on the old "He didn't mean to hit me, he ain't a bad person".

Only cowards hit women. And it takes an exceptional type of coward to pretend he has justification from God to do it.

P.

Caverna

If you can provide me with one piece of Islamic literature which approves/condones/permits/authorises wife beating then I will be glad to alter my opinion.

It's that simple.

Oceanclub, it is wholly irrelevant as to whether I condone or condemn wife beating.

farrahk52

Quote:
(Husbands) are the protectors and maintainers of their (wives) because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) spank them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

oceanclub wrote: »

A variation on the old "He didn't mean to hit me, he ain't a bad person".

Only cowards hit women. And it takes an exceptional type of coward to pretend he has justification from God to do it.

P.

Yes, we have established we have a lot of macho cowards in the world (see stats) but being beaten by a toothbrush lightly sure beats a punch in the face. To be honest i'd try my best to not let it get it to the stage where he refuses to share the bed (for obvious reasons lol). Do you think if someone was to report being hit lightly with a toothbrush to the police they would take it seriously???

Jannah

farrahk52 wrote: »

Quote:
(Husbands) are the protectors and maintainers of their (wives) because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore, the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) spank them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Yes, we have established we have a lot of macho cowards in the world (see stats) but being beaten by a toothbrush lightly sure beats a punch in the face. To be honest i'd try my best to not let it get it to the stage where he refuses to share the bed (for obvious reasons lol). Do you think if someone was to report being hit lightly with a toothbrush to the police they would take it seriously???

I think the main point here is why does a religion (particularly one that advocates itself as a religion of peace) allow women to be beaten at ALL- its humiliating and degrading for everyone involved- and ridiculious. I mean, seriously, if the guy is that angry do you honestly think he'll tear into the bathroom and pull out his toothbrush?? Get real.

Caverna

Jannah wrote: »

I think the main point here is why does a religion (particularly one that advocates itself as a religion of peace) allow women to be beaten at ALL- its humiliating and degrading for everyone involved- and ridiculious. I mean, seriously, if the guy is that angry do you honestly think he'll tear into the bathroom and pull out his toothbrush?? Get real.

Of course he won't get his toothbrush because he will realise the symbolism of the toothbrush before he even goes for it!

Can't you understand that? Islam tries to deal with the problem of women being beaten by men all over the world by giving men steps to guide them when they become angry.

Islam is about guiding people, helping them to live a decent, honourable life. It does NOT permit the beating of a woman. It simply DOES NOT permit this.

Consider this, it's 1400 years ago and women are being beaten all around the world and God, through Muhammad (as Muslims believe), sent a message of how people should live their lives. So God says..."do not beat your wife.." and instead he gives men a list of ways of dealing with their anger and giving women more respect then they had previously done.

You seem to have a really big "us and them" attitude to Muslims but there are Irish Muslims too you know?! People born in Cork, Dublin, Mayo and Donegal called Seamus, Paddy, Mary and Catherine who have converted or are in fact Irish born Muslims.

Saying "Muslim men" is just about as broad, vague and general as you can possibly get!

There are Muslims in Ireland, India, Brazil, Malaysia, Iran, Iceland and Chaina. These countries all have different cultures and traditions. The muslims are bound by their religion all over the world but usually thats where alot of the similarites will end as people are unique and different and you can't possibly group together 750million men!

It's insane!

irishconvert

Caverna wrote: »

You seem to have a really big "us and them" attitude to Muslims but there are Irish Muslims too you know?! People born in Cork, Dublin, Mayo and Donegal called Seamus, Paddy, Mary and Catherine who have converted or are in fact Irish born Muslims.

Erm, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jannah is a Muslim (convert?)...who incidentally spends a lot of time here critising Muslims and Islam. Very strange...

Caverna

irishconvert wrote: »

Erm, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jannah is a Muslim (convert?)...who incidentally spends a lot of time here critising Muslims and Islam. Very strange...

Cheers for that Irishconvert, i didn't realise.

To be honest from the way Jannah is posting, is it any wonder I didn't realise?!

I'm going out on a limb here and I feel that I can say this with certainty: Jannah-you have NOT converted to Islam!

Jannah

Caverna wrote: »

Of course he won't get his toothbrush because he will realise the symbolism of the toothbrush before he even goes for it!
You seem to have a really big "us and them" attitude to Muslims but there are Irish Muslims too you know?! People born in Cork, Dublin, Mayo and Donegal called Seamus, Paddy, Mary and Catherine who have converted or are in fact Irish born Muslims.

Saying "Muslim men" is just about as broad, vague and general as you can possibly get!

But a man should realise that hitting women is wrong ANYWAY- without the need for symbolism! Sadly, not all Muslims will be oh so intellectual to see "Aha, they actually mean to beat with a toothbrush! Well my goodness, I think I'll give that a go!" Why COULDN'T God simply say "don't beat your wives"? Surely this would have been the straightforward thing to do? And it would have cleared up any misconceptions about anyone acutally thinking that it is allowed in Islam??

Yes, I am aware there are Irish Muslims (clap clap for that :rolleyes:) I have said that the muslim men I have met weren't good people but I by NO MEANS said that all muslim men are 'bad'. I also said that I would be open to a good muslim man, in that I wouldn't simply assume he was going to be bad because of his religion. Pretty obvious, really.

irishconvert wrote: »

Erm, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jannah is a Muslim (convert?)...who incidentally spends a lot of time here critising Muslims and Islam. Very strange...

Um, hello, Jannah is here, therefore address me and not the rest of the board, thank you very much. No, I am not a Muslim, I considered it and tried it but it was... well, lets just say, what I found out, I couldn't agree with at all. It is therefore no coincidence that I am here debating Islamic issues, as I don't want anyone else to be misguided as I was and so that they can see the pitfalls of the religion and not be presented with a rose-tinted glasses perspective. If you have a problem with people being on this site where their opinions differ to yours, then you probably should leave now because I am by no means alone in my criticisms

irishconvert

Jannah wrote: »

Um, hello, Jannah is here, therefore address me and not the rest of the board, thank you very much. No, I am not a Muslim, I considered it and tried it but it was... well, lets just say, what I found out, I couldn't agree with at all. It is therefore no coincidence that I am here debating Islamic issues, as I don't want anyone else to be misguided as I was and so that they can see the pitfalls of the religion and not be presented with a rose-tinted glasses perspective. If you have a problem with people being on this site where their opinions differ to yours, then you probably should leave now because I am by no means alone in my criticisms

Perhaps you should change your entry in the roll call then which says you are a practising Muslim. I have no problem with people who have different opinions to myself but I do have a problem with you pretending to be a Muslim to try to give extra weight to your anti-Islamic viewpoints.

Caverna

Ok JAnnah look at it like this, from a religious perspective human beings and therefore men are made imperfect and will sin. God is the perfect one.

Using this logic it then is accepted that God has sent a messae to all the men of the world on how to deal with this anger that SOME men will feel.

( The anger that you seem to be suggesting is some sort of blind rage where the only thing a man can think of is to hit a woman and personally i haven't met any man friend, dad, brother, uncle, grandfather who wass actually so angry that they hit their loved one)

So God has sent a guideline of sorts for these minority of men who feel the urge to hit their women.

Islam deals with this ugly subject in a dignified respectful way.

So I have 2 questions for you to answer please:

1) Whats Christianitys official line on wife beating, and

2) Can you suggest a better alternative to islams way of dealing with enraged men who want to hit a woman?

Jannah

irishconvert wrote: »

Perhaps you should change your entry in the roll call then which says you are a practising Muslim. I have no problem with people who have different opinions to myself but I do have a problem with you pretending to be a Muslim to try to give extra weight to your anti-Islamic viewpoints.

There's no way of changing it, and anyway I have explained time and time again that I am not, but you obviously weren't paying attention. I do not 'pretend' to be anything, that was my viewpoint at the time of that post. I don't need anything to give weight to my opinions, which I consider pro-human rights rather than anti anything

irishconvert

Jannah wrote: »

There's no way of changing it, and anyway I have explained time and time again that I am not, but you obviously weren't paying attention.

I am not a stalker, I do not follow you around every thread reading your posts. Therefore how am I supposed to know you are no longer a Muslim?

Caverna

Jannah, I do hope you respond to my post.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

if she was your wife, you could hit her now.

merrionsq

farrahk52 wrote: »

So on the back of men cant control themselves (which is evident from the stats) if i was ever beaten, id rather be beaten by a toothbrush lightly than by a fist in the face, abit of light spanking never did anyone harm, lets not take it out of context!.

Believe it or not, all men don't beat women. A minority in fact. Your prejudices are distasteful.

Yet, you seem prepared to accept that some close male figure may beat you, and if so you'd opt for the toothbrush over the fist?!:(

Your medieval mentality is both depressing and disturbing.